The Origin of Lucifer

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Count Zero
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The Origin of Lucifer

Post by Count Zero »

Much of the tie-in between Lucifer the angel and Lucifer the deceiver comes from a single passage in the book of Isaiah, Isaiah 14: 12-14 to be precise. This passage reads as follows:
“How art thou fallen from heaven , O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High”

Now, everywhere else in the Bible, the fallen angel is referred to as Satan. The words “devil” , “Satan” and “angel” never occur in this chapter. This is the only place in Scripture where the word “Lucifer” occurs. There is no evidence that Isaiah 14 is describing anything that happened in the garden of Eden; if it is, then why are we left 3,000 years from the time of Genesis before being told what really happened there?
Lucifer is described as being covered in worms (v. 11) and mocked by men (v. 16) because he no longer has any power after his casting out of heaven (vs. 5-8); so there is no justification for thinking that Lucifer is now on earth leading believers astray. Why is Lucifer punished for saying, “I will ascend into heaven” (v. 13), if he was already there? Lucifer is to rot in the grave: “Thy pomp is brought down to the grave...and the worms cover thee” (v. 11). Seeing angels cannot die (Lk. 20:35-36), Lucifer therefore cannot be an angel; the language is more suited to a man.

Verse 17 accuses Lucifer of making the “world as a wilderness, (destroying) the cities thereof; that let not loose his prisoners to their home...(that did) fill the face of the world with cities...the exactress of gold” (vs 17 & 21 R.V.; v. 4 A.V. margin). These are all descriptions of Babylonian military policy - razing whole areas to the ground (as they did to Jerusalem), transporting captives to other areas and not letting them return to their homeland (as they did to the Jews), building new cities and taking tribute of gold from nations they oppressed. Thus there is emphasis on the fact that Lucifer was not even going to get the burial these other kings had (vs. 18-19), implying that he was only a human king like them, seeing his body needed burying. Is. 14:8 records the relief that now the "Lucifer" figure would no longer cut down cedars in Lebanon and hew mountains. This is exactly the language used by Nebuchadnezzar: "What no former king had done, I achieved: I cut through steep mountains, I split rocks, I opened passages and constructed a straight road for the transport of Cedars... to Marduk, my king, mighty cedars... the abundant yield of the Lebanon". Clearly the figure spoken of in Is. 14 was Nebuchadnezzar.

It should be noted that the idea of 'morning star' is translated 'Lucifer' in the Vulgate [Latin] translation of the Bible made by Jerome. Significantly, he uses 'Lucifer' as a description of Christ, as the 'morning star' mentioned in Revelation. Indeed, some early Christians took the name 'Lucifer' as a 'Christian name' in order to identify themselves with Jesus. It wasn't until Origen that the term 'Lucifer' took on any connotation of 'Satan' or a force of evil; and even then it was only popularized much later in Milton's Paradise Lost . 'Lucifer' in its strict meaning of 'bearer of the light' actually was applied in a positive sense to Christian communities, e.g. the followers of Lucifer of Cagliari were called 'Luciferians'. As an aside, it's worth pointing out that they were one of the groups who insisted that the devil was not a personal being and held to the original Biblical picture of sin and the devil.

It's also important to remember that this whole section of the Bible is a “proverb (parable) against the king of Babylon” (v. 4). “Lucifer” means “the morning star”, which is the brightest of the stars. In the parable, this star proudly decides to “ascend (higher) into heaven...exalt my throne above the (other) stars of God” (v. 13). Because of this, the star is cast down to the earth. The star represents the king of Babylon. Daniel chapter 4 explains how Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, proudly surveyed the great kingdom he had built up, thinking that he had conquered other nations in his own strength, rather than recognizing that God had given him success. “Thy greatness (pride) is grown, and reacheth unto heaven” (v.22). Because of this “he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles’ feathers, and his nails like birds’ claws” (v. 33).

This sudden humbling of one of the world’s most powerful men to a deranged lunatic was such a dramatic event as to call for the parable about the falling of the morning star from heaven to earth. Stars are symbolic of powerful people, e.g. Genesis 37: 9; Isaiah 13:10 (concerning the leaders of Babylon); Ezekiel 32: 7 (concerning the leaders of Egypt); Daniel 8:10, cp. v. 24. Ascending to heaven and falling from heaven are Biblical idioms often used for increasing in pride and being humbled respectively - see Job 20: 6; Jeremiah 51:53 ( about Babylon); Lamentations 2 :1; Matthew 11:23 (about Capernaum): “Thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell” (the grave). Adam Clarke's commentary on the origins of Lucifer also notes: "The truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall... but of the pride, arrogance and fall of Nebuchadnezzar".

One of the big things to also remember about the Bible is that it has been heavily modified to suit the whims of the Roman Catholic church, first at the Council of Nicaea in AD 325 when the first Christian Roman Emperor Constantine I basically stripped all the bits from the old and new testaments that didn't fit with church doctrine, including the incredibly controversial Book of Judas, and the equally controversial Book of Mary. The Bible was then re-written again in the 16th century by the Council of Trent, who believed that Christianity had become too liberal and should be focused around sin and redemption, not salvation. There was also a period in the early 18th century where the Vatican Council again rewrote sections they believed went against Catholic law in order to persecute the Protestants. This said, there is no reason whatsoever to believe that the teachings of Judaism relate in any way to the teachings of Christianity, or any other Abrahamic system of belief - the Bible has simply been too heavily modified. This is why when people claim its the infallible word of God they are speaking from pure ignorance of history.

(References: 'The Real Devil - A Biblical Exploration')
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Yeshai
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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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How art thou fallen from heaven
If Lucifer was never in heaven to begin with, he could not have fallen from thence.
Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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If Lucifer was never in heaven to begin with, he could not have fallen from thence.
According to Jewish tradition only the chosen of God get to enter Heaven. Those who do not follow his teachings instead spend the rest of eternity rotting away in their graves having been denied the afterlife. This falls in line with the comment about worms as it is symbolic of the fact that Heaven has been denied to him. The "Fall" is meant to be metaphorical not literal (although in a way it is literal).

Adding to this Lucifer is very clearly NOT Satan. Satan was an entirely different entity entirely and he WAS an angel. His name being of course Samael. He's got a whole interesting bit of lore behind him as well that tends to get overshadowed and confused with the traditional concepts of Lucifer and the Devil.
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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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According to Jewish tradition only the chosen of God get to enter Heaven. Those who do not follow his teachings instead spend the rest of eternity rotting away in their graves having been denied the afterlife.
Job 1:6 " Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. "
Satan is called the "accuser of the brethren" because he has access to the throne.
This falls in line with the comment about worms as it is symbolic of the fact that Heaven has been denied to him. The "Fall" is meant to be metaphorical not literal (although in a way it is literal).
Adding to this Lucifer is very clearly NOT Satan. Satan was an entirely different entity entirely and he WAS an angel. His name being of course Samael. He's got a whole interesting bit of lore behind him as well that tends to get overshadowed and confused with the traditional concepts of Lucifer and the Devil.
Jesus Christ said Himself that He beheld the fall of Satan from heaven.
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Ezekiel 28
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
This passage seems to be addressed to the King of Tyrus. But very quickly we can see that it is also addressed to the power behind the king, Satan. Just like Isaiah 14 is addressed to the king of babylon, but also to the power behind the king, Satan. Can any human possibly desire the throne of God?
The king of Tyrus was never in the garden of Eden. But Satan was. This description only fits Satan, a cherub who was anointed of God, who fell subject to pride and was cast down to earth.
Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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Again I have to drive home the point that the fall of Lucifer is different from the fall of Satan (aka Samael). This is because Lucider is not Satan and in fact is a different person from Satan. The confusion comes from the fact that the Christians slapped the title of Satan (a carry over from the Jewish tradition) onto Lucifer with little to no proof backing it up despite the fact the Jews had already established Satan as another individual.

The word Satan means "hinderer" in Hebrew and was originally a position granted by God to test the humans resolve and tempt them into sin. Samael was the angel chosen to carry the title of Satan according to Judiasm; an already extremely fearsome angel of death who the other Angels of Heaven feared due to his ferociousness.

http://www.samaelaunweor.info/identity/ ... amael.html

So how in the heck did an angel appointed by God fall? Some claim that he didn't and works for God still in the application of his duties as Satan. If you buy into the Rape of Eve however there's an entirely different story to tell. Basically before Azazel even came down to Earth with the Watchers and got it on with humans Samael was paired up with Lilith. Lilith got kicked out of Eden as Adam's first wife because she refused to cooperate with God and wanted equality with Adam.

After she left she and Samael had a bunch of babies together which were subsequently hunted down by angels. Eventually Lilith got angry (some say because of the death of her children and some say because of her jealousy towards Eve) and started the whole serpent and the apple thing with Samael. After which Samael was cast out of Heaven and Lilith became a demoness.

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/artic ... e_the.html

So in conclusion in Christianity Lucifer has become Satan but before he was given the title by the Christians Samael already held it amongst the Jews. So in effect there's two Satans hence the confusion. The bible is confusing in that it contradicts the Torah which it was blatantly and poorly ripped off of leading to two separate accounts of the events covered in Judiasm and Christianity.
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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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If you're going to dismiss Christianity as a reliable source on the origin of Satan/Lucifer, then there's nothing more to debate. According to the Holy Scriptures contained in the Old and New Testaments, Satan is a fallen angel, before known as Lucifer. How can an angel anointed of God fall? Because angels, like men, have something called free will. Every one of them chose to be loyal to YHWH or to rebel and thus be cast down.
Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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You misunderstand me. I'm not discounting Christianity as a reliable source, I'm discounting the Catholic interpretation. Even in the Old/New Testaments though they never specifically reference Lucfer as Satan. If you can provide me a quote where they do I'd love to see it.
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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
According to this verse, Satan fell from heaven.
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer...!"

To believe otherwise would be to insinuate that, if Satan and Lucifer are two separate entities, both of them had a position in heaven and both of them fell from their position in heaven.

Satan is not Lucifer, (anymore). But Satan was Lucifer.
Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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Yeshai wrote:Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
According to this verse, Satan fell from heaven.
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer...!"

To believe otherwise would be to insinuate that, if Satan and Lucifer are two separate entities, both of them had a position in heaven and both of them fell from their position in heaven.

Satan is not Lucifer, (anymore). But Satan was Lucifer.
Disbelief doesn't insinuate anything but disbelief.

You are 99.9% responsible for your own beliefs.

...

"Satan" means "Enemy",
Just like "Allah" means "God".

See what I'm getting at? ;)

You actually think it's Lucifer's name?
His name is already Lucifer...

Satan is just a personality,
A malevolent - deceitful - clever; evil spirit.

In other words - God was mad at the evil spirit in Lucifer's mind and heart.

He was never mad at his Sun,
He was mad at the force that took over him,
A force that sickened his heart and took over his mind.

So - God called his Sun an enemy. A.K.A. - Satan.

Any direct creation of God is his children.

DIRECT - Remember that word.

...

Anyone and everyone is satan,
We all have satans/enemies,
And we are all the satans of our enemies.

The bible will never be fully understood by one man today towards ever - unless he is biologically inmortal and has mastered this realm.

Because there are so many ways to read one passage.

So many lenses to look through.

Now y'all continue master-debating,
This argument is getting interesting.

Y'all are the Masters of Debating - Right?

xD

Edit: You do know that Lucifer is also a solar deity?
Just like Jesus is a solar deity.

And most of us know that Jesus was a personality applied to Our Sun that lives in heaven/outerspace.

So jesus walked on water,
That's what the sun does - it walks on water everyday,
The reflection of the sun on the water.

Jesus turned water into wine.
The sun helps the grape vines grow and mature,
And man takes the grapes and creates wine with it.
Therefore - the blood of christ is not alcohol - but: "Water".

The holy spirit represents a healthy personality - someone who is an icon for soberness.

If you do your research - you would know this too.

This insinuates that Jesus is the Sun and so is Lucifer.
Verse 17 accuses Lucifer of making the “world as a wilderness, (destroying) the cities thereof;
The Sun *Lucifer* gives life to our earth and allows for things to grow such as a wilderness.

...

I'm just throwing lenses out there for ya.

...

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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

Post by Napoli »

I have always believed that Satan isn't Lucifer but Samael. In fact, I agree with Count Zero that Lucifer is a mistranslation. I think Samael never fell from his Yahweh's grace. It is his role to play the prosecutor and adversary to his creator without leaving his side. Yes, he is a dark angel. There are plenty of such angels under his wing. According 'The Book of Sitra Achra' the other name of Satan is HVHY, the opposite of YHVH. While YHVH part of ToL is born from 'Thoughtful Light' and gave rise to the sephirothic sphere, the HVHY part is born from 'Thoughtless Light' and gave rise to the qlippothic ones. This happened because of the dual nature of the universe.
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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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To believe otherwise would be to insinuate that, if Satan and Lucifer are two separate entities, both of them had a position in heaven and both of them fell from their position in heaven.
That's exactly what I'm saying. And both the bible and the Torah back me up on this too. As you yourself pointed out there were plenty of other angels who fell besides Lucifer. Lucifer doesn't hold a copyright on fallen angels. Your quote does noting to directly tie Lucifer to Satan other than that they both fell from Satan. If Lucifer HAS to be Satan because he fell from Heaven than doesn't that mean the Watchers and Azazel, who also fell from heaven, are also Satan.
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"Let the rain kiss you. Let the rain beat upon your head with silver liquid drops. Let the rain sing you a lluaby." - Langston Hughes

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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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Napoli wrote:I have always believed that Satan isn't Lucifer but Samael. In fact, I agree with Count Zero that Lucifer is a mistranslation. I think Samael never fell from his Yahweh's grace. It is his role to play the prosecutor and adversary to his creator without leaving his side. Yes, he is a dark angel. There are plenty of such angels under his wing. According 'The Book of Sitra Achra' the other name of Satan is HVHY, the opposite of YHVH. While YHVH part of ToL is born from 'Thoughtful Light' and gave rise to the sephirothic sphere, the HVHY part is born from 'Thoughtless Light' and gave rise to the qlippothic ones. This happened because of the dual nature of the universe.
This resonated with my own beliefs so much that I had to say so. I will share them further if anyone wishes to discuss.

Satan I believe is the ruler of this realm and as such represents the oposite from source and light. It represents restraint, limitation, and not doing our Will. Satan is the master of the chains. Our plane is where we break the chains and go back to limitlessness, abundance, and joy. This place is where we crawl back to Eden. The holy serpent gave us the knowledge and wisdom and therefor the quest to learn to use such accordingly to God's will and to align our own will with it. I don't believe all this was because an entity created from god was faulty or employed its free will in a way that didn't benefit the whole framework of existence. Struggle is needed for expansion.

Without the bite from the apple we would live a limited life. Like animals. No free will.We would just do as we are. Stay on the Garden confortably, enjoy all fruits, places, and ourselves, but without any choice. We would do as our nature dictates us. With the apple came the knowing, and this knowing gave us the freedom to not do as we will (God's will). The consequences from not doing our will strike back at us in this plane and we certainly do not enjoy them. This way we shape our intelect with the ideas needed for expansion and ultimate alignment. Going back to Eden.

Lucifer I believe is each one of us. We've evolved enough to deserve a free will. Giving us a determined free will as animals is pointless. Free will must be trully free from determinism. But for the expansion of the whole mechanism of existence it is needed that this free will is shaped by experience in a certain way. So that this big existence thing keeps growing.

Quoting a thing partly I believe is pointless so,
Isaiah 14 wrote:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Lucifer's Will (ours) ultimately will be in harmony with God's will. But this takes experiences. There is no concept of freedom if chains don't exist. Duality.

(Fucking sick verses if I may add, very empowering.)

My regards

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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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Some people say Lucifer is/was Adam before he fell. I do know that before Adam was a man he was a powerful spiritual being. But a lot of people don't know that.

https://jacobisrael.com/category/who-is-lucifer-really/
http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... =7&t=39490
http://www.newlifechurchhome.com/TheLuciferError.html
https://www.godfire.net/paris/lucifer_adam3.html

Adam and the Egyptian god Seth are connected.

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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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Lucifer aka the morning star aka heylel aka venus aka light-bearer, and Satan aka Beelzebub aka baal etc are not the Same
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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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Ometeotl wrote:Lucifer aka the morning star aka heylel aka venus aka light-bearer, and Satan aka Beelzebub aka baal etc are not the Same
Dwamn!

You're a goddess!
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Our consciousness is the darkness that envelopes all of the universe; We will live forever because we are the essence that is the absence of light.
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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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Kami wrote:
Ometeotl wrote:Lucifer aka the morning star aka heylel aka venus aka light-bearer, and Satan aka Beelzebub aka baal etc are not the Same
Dwamn!

You're a goddess!
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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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Yeshai wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:37 am If you're going to dismiss Christianity as a reliable source on the origin of Satan/Lucifer, then there's nothing more to debate. According to the Holy Scriptures contained in the Old and New Testaments, Satan is a fallen angel, before known as Lucifer. How can an angel anointed of God fall? Because angels, like men, have something called free will. Every one of them chose to be loyal to YHWH or to rebel and thus be cast down.
I was shown some visions regarding a "Fallen" being who has the other half of my heart... I was also introduced to Satan/Lucifer (The Devil). I was raised as a Christian and it is ironic how we are taught Satan "Rebelled" and he is "bad". It's amazing to mew how we are just okay with so little real information.

Anyway, according to what I was shown, my spirit spouse joined the "rebellion" because I was not a good husband, and actually, knowing what I know now, I would not want to be married to me, either, so I do not blame her, I do not account any sin to her, though she harmed me greatly a number of years ago. God told me in order to be forgiven for my sins, I need to forgive her for hers against me.

Anyway, God loves Lucifer, God loves my angry spirit spouse (She was once his beloved creation and he loved her. Hell was made to give her rest.)

It turns out that Satan and the demons (Not all are angels, just fed-up creatures with legitimate gripes!) were given a wonderful home where they could be themselves, be negative, angry, violent, rebellious, without God supervision.

Am I sympathizing with the devil... Absolutely I am. And so does God, believe it or not. God will not empty Hell out. God will give them a choice, however. Whether Christians want to accept it or not, God loves his creation. When they have had enough time in darkness and negativity, they can leave at-will.

18 years ago this was not so. Perhaps as little as 5 months ago they were trapped in the dark realm. Now, they are free to leave. The Bible talks about the end times when they walk among us, or something, I think.

I've been watching the show "Lucifer" and there are some DAMN good gems in that show if you want to learn about heavenly dynamics.

I wish Christians were thirsty for more knowledge about this stuff, instead we are told to run away. It's like God only really respects the rebellious, because people who blindly worship you are no fun, only those giving you the finger in spite of your power have the guts to earn that level of respect of the creator.

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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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The Christian legend of the Prince of Peace and the Prince of Darkness comes straight from the Sumerian accounts of Ea and Enlil - both sons of the Heavenly Sovereign (Anu/An/Ain/On).

The older prince Ea/Enki was by a concubine and therefore could not inherit. He and Enlil (the heir) were sent to Earth so that they could not raise a palace revolution - how their father had come to power.

Read The Twelfh Planet for a reasonably accurate non-esoteric account.
https://www.nothuman.net/images/files/d ... ad52a2.pdf


Later, the Jewish concept of a tempter/tester was confounded with the Sumerian account. Abraham was from Sumer

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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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Amor wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:49 am The Christian legend of the Prince of Peace and the Prince of Darkness comes straight from the Sumerian accounts of Ea and Enlil - both sons of the Heavenly Sovereign (Anu/An/Ain/On).

The older prince Ea/Enki was by a concubine and therefore could not inherit. He and Enlil (the heir) were sent to Earth so that they could not raise a palace revolution - how their father had come to power.

Read The Twelfh Planet for a reasonably accurate non-esoteric account.
https://www.nothuman.net/images/files/d ... ad52a2.pdf


Later, the Jewish concept of a tempter/tester was confounded with the Sumerian account. Abraham was from Sumer

That is interesting and terrifying.

That link doesn't work, is there any way to get that file another way?

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Re: The Origin of Lucifer

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The link works for me.

Here is a set of Sitchin torrents

https://concen.org/content/zecharia-sit ... f-and-epub

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