Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

francoteves
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Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by francoteves »

Hello friends,

I've always wanted to simplify the LBRP and BRH rituals (and I suppose there are many more) by drawing the geometries and letters with either a single tool (one general wand) or with my index finger. I usually travel and I wouldn't like to depend on these tools to do the rituals, or to "lower" the quality of the rituals for not having them. At some point I would like to reduce everything to my fingers as I would not have any dependencies and would rely exclusively on my body and own natural resources.

¿So what do you think about using a single tool (one general wand crafted by myself) or index finger for all rituals?

Thank you.

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Napoli
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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Napoli »

Remember, tools are just a point of focus. Ceremonial Magic uses a lot of tools built with the utmost attention to details. I think that is the nature of the system. However, they are not mandatory. You can perform LBRP and BRH with your index finger if you want to. I don't think it will lower the quality of your magical rituals if you don't use tools.
In my sword I trust.

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francoteves
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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by francoteves »

Thank you very much Napoli.

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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Napoli »

francoteves wrote:Thank you very much Napoli.
You are welcome :) .
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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Amavisso »

I think that it follows the simple rule: the more efforts you put in, the better is the outcome.

I also think that Magic Art is, in some sense, like rocket science, you can't substitute things like fuel or it won't work.

I'd also be very careful with banishing rites. If someone is beginner, his initial focus should be on such things as ability to feel and accumulate power. So if to assume that banishing rites, which you use, are actually working, using them is like shooting in all directions from the gun, expecting that it will have any beneficial use.

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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Omnicentrik »

I tend to go for the style of Norse Rune Magicians. If you can carry it in a pouch on your belt, then its fine.

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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Cerber »

Many years ago I thought I don't need any tools, I can just use my mind and my hands. Then some years later I began using some, because I began to see that things just work better, or it is easier to achieve certain results using certain tools, but back then I would be using whatever I have in my own kitchen, figuratively speaking, whatever was at hand, more or less.
And then even more years later, these days, I have small set of own crafted (in part) and very specialized "tools", some of them I don't even feel comfortable referring by word "tool", because some of them gained sentience and developed amazing personalities :)
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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Amor »

> some of them gained sentience and developed amazing personalities

So they gained elemental intelligences and/or nature spirits?

My 31 year old Mazda is most cooperative.

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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Cerber »

Amor wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:43 pm > some of them gained sentience and developed amazing personalities

So they gained elemental intelligences and/or nature spirits?

My 31 year old Mazda is most cooperative.
Depends how do you define differences between "elemental intelligences" and "nature spirits"?
I don't use those terms in my personal gnosis.
Almost any "item"/"vessel" can "acquire" spirit, potentially, theoretically. And it often doesn't even require anything special, every now and then it happens naturally. A 31 year old car is indeed a good candidate to having one, especially if it was treated kindly over those long years :)
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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Kath »

Probably just depends on how much your own personal approach to doing magick relies on the "theatrics" of the event to reinforce your focus & mental state.

However, it's worth pointing out that objects can uh... terminology is forever my bane... lets call it "accumulate resonance". Or perhaps just develop an association in space time... so many ways to frame it really. But anyway, tools might retain some element of snowballing 'oomf', I mean above and beyond the psychological imbuement angle.

But that's coming from someone who leans more on the non-ceremonial side.

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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Amor »

>leans more on the non-ceremonial side.

Does that mean that relationship is the primary means to achieve results?

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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Kath »

Amor wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:13 pm >leans more on the non-ceremonial side.

Does that mean that relationship is the primary means to achieve results?
When trying to achieve a result through a 3rd party being? Yeah, I'd prefer relationship over ritual.
Although primarily I try to achieve results directly, hands on, myself.
But when going through an external agency for magical potency, I do favor a relationship with the agency of potency over a 'paint by numbers' formal interaction.

By my comment though, I only meant that anyone who's deeply entrenched in the "RTFM mindset", should feel free to take my input with a grain of salt.

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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Amor »

>prefer relationship over ritual

At present our God (solar logos) is a god of love. Hence magic done without love is contrary to the unfoldment of our God.

What future would there be in such a path?

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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Kath »

Amor wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:52 pmAt present our God (solar logos) is a god of love. Hence magic done without love is contrary to the unfoldment of our God.

What future would there be in such a path?
My perception is that divinity is infinite
is the divine love? yeah
and everything else too, including love's opposite, whatever we decide that may be

I find that the closer I feel to divinity, the less focused I am on personal interests. Not in a RHP manner of submission of self agency, but rather in the manner that the division between individual will and the nature and momentum of the universe, just seems minimized.

Is reality divided into love and it's opposite? I wouldn't say that's exactly inaccurate, but I think it's just one of infinite ways of framing it. I think it's divided into everything, and unified by everything. And I think it's very pretty.

Or at least that's how I see it. I don't claim to be the arbiter of the right way of looking at it though.
I'm not particularly aligned with the light & dark framing myself. If I had to subjectively pick a most defining trait about the universe, and frame everything through that lens, it would probably be the interplay between union and division which makes all that is, as it is. But it would feel kinda arbitrary to do so. *shrug*

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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Cerber »

I don't acknowledge existence of one supreme all encompassing deity. All my deities are an actual "people", be it multidimensional, multi focused, in many cases pan-sexual and even plural, but they all occupy certain specific space and time, within certain specific boundaries, and certain specific dimensions and angles. Growing and shrinking, changing, but never absolute. Even if an absolute all existence encompassing super sentience existed - it would not matter, just like my personal existence don't matter to any individual atom within my physical body, and if it doesn't matter, it doesn't need to exist within my gnosis, or to be acknowledged.
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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Amor »

Many humans accept the concept of this planet having an aliveness - the Earth Mother.

What is the corresponding concept for the solar system?

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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Cerber »

Amor wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:20 am Many humans accept the concept of this planet having an aliveness - the Earth Mother.

What is the corresponding concept for the solar system?
I'm more from "egregorian school", so from there, at least according to my own gnosis, while every soul/spirit can have a body, and every body (even celestial scale) can have a soul/spirit, in theory, in actuality of our (pseudo/meta)reality not every body has a spirit and not every spirit has a body. Perhaps even most don't.
In my astral travels I came to know, or was made aware of existence, or possibility of existence, of forms of giant super-sentience, spanning across or occupying in some shape or form was field of solar systems, large patches of our own galaxy. But that kind of scales are far beyond my mind's ability to comprehend and far beyond my practical needs of this current miniscule lifespan. So for all intents and purposes they don't matter to me. But at the same time, I'm not aware of anything as such existing in our close neighbourhood. Except the ones we all already aware of in one way or another.
My personal philosophy: never swim with those that are orders of magnitude larger than me, they may crush or swallow me by accident, or even intentionally. And at the same time, avoid swimming with the little ones, since I may cause more accidental damage than I could repair.
I know limits of my own awareness, knowing too strong word, more like I feel I'm somewhat vaguely aware there are limits, beyond which I should not wander too far or else there may be unforeseen undesirable consequences. So I tend to stick with "regular sized" egregores, we can get along at least most of the time without breaking anything important.
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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Amor »

Fair enough

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Kath
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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Kath »

Cerber wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:05 am My personal philosophy: never swim with those that are orders of magnitude larger than me, they may crush or swallow me by accident, or even intentionally. And at the same time, avoid swimming with the little ones, since I may cause more accidental damage than I could repair.
I know limits of my own awareness, knowing too strong word, more like I feel I'm somewhat vaguely aware there are limits, beyond which I should not wander too far or else there may be unforeseen undesirable consequences. So I tend to stick with "regular sized" egregores, we can get along at least most of the time without breaking anything important.
My favorite swimming partner in the multiverse would swallow whales whole.
there is an air of it being very intimidating, alien in scale and nature,
but oh so familiar
I would rather be crushed than feed the idea that I am too small, or limit myself so that I don't feel the driving need to grow
I have scars, but I don't mind

I definitely get how it would seem intimidating though. And also the issue of feeling like you have to tread lightly if you're to avoid stepping on smaller things. I never want her to feel as though she must tread lightly with me though. It would really bother me if that was how she felt about my presence.

even if we're looking at what's shallow near the water's surface, and that's our focus, are we ever not swimming in deep water?

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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Cerber »

Kath wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:28 pm My favorite swimming partner in the multiverse would swallow whales whole.
there is an air of it being very intimidating, alien in scale and nature,
but oh so familiar
I would rather be crushed than feed the idea that I am too small, or limit myself so that I don't feel the driving need to grow
I have scars, but I don't mind

I definitely get how it would seem intimidating though. And also the issue of feeling like you have to tread lightly if you're to avoid stepping on smaller things. I never want her to feel as though she must tread lightly with me though. It would really bother me if that was how she felt about my presence.

even if we're looking at what's shallow near the water's surface, and that's our focus, are we ever not swimming in deep water?
My take on it much more technical, even mathematical. In my personal gnosis there are physical limitations that cannot be easily overcome, I don't have infinite growth potential in cognitive capacity, there only about 1.5kg of brain mass in my present form, and there is no available way to increase it. While human brain is quite malleable, and much can be achieved by constantly reshaping and optimizing it, I eventually reach limits beyond which any attempts to increase that computational capacity of one area will always be at the expense of some other area, in essence cannibalizing it self. Nothing can't be done about it, at least in the present, thus we stick ideas we can chew and swallow, with "people" with whom we are able to maintain a conversation, who's ideas and vision we can at least vaguely grasp. That's not to say it's something terminal, "I'm a dog and that's all I'll ever be", it's more like "I'm a dog now, and it probably more beneficial to focus on being awesome dog, than trying to be a horse or a cow. To make the most of it, and I'll be thinking like a horse or a cow when I become one if ever."
So when it comes to scale
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..this size of guys and gals (relatively, for some vague scale) I still kind of get it, more or less, vaguely. Even if they can overload my gears with only couple sentences, and their jokes so interdimensional, I'll start laughing only 5 years later. But it all still there within my mental, spiritual reach, somewhat. And for that scale people, I still can be of some use, I can have some practical application, for any transactional interactions, if nothing else.
Beyond that, everything is "un-graspable and un-quantifiable super-natural forces of the hyperdimensional existence", I'm not too interested in that which I cannot grasp and won't be able to for a good while, I figure. A good handful of centuries at least.
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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Kath »

If I'm a dog I want to run with horses and grow and evolve.

I'm reminded of a dream.
floating in an ocean at night, inky infinite void filled with stars above, pale full moon light. inky infinite void below in the depths of the sea too. My then fiance was floating there too. I felt great in this setting. he felt upset that there was no land around. My patron came then, from below us, in the form of a great white sea monster, basically a 600 ft squid, pale like the moon, the moon of the depths. the fiance was scared and fled. I embraced her and swam with her. There were tidbits of object lesson about the meaninglessness of form, the nature of scale, the ability to feel and know her without visual cues, etc. also probably the fact that she didn't like my ex fiance very much. but mostly it was just a fun dream, like riding the sand worms in dune, but aquatic, and no stabbing with spikey rope things (ouch).

Maybe "trust" is a big part of swimming with leviathans? If i was in the actual water with an actual whale, i'd want out of the water, cuz those things can crush you, and I don't know that whale, hehe.

Probably also I feel really small and vulnerable physically. Technically I'm a nordic amazon but, relatively speaking, small and helpless compared to mentally/spiritually.

When I've read lovecraft, and he talks about interdimensional intelligences which would shatter your mind to gaze upon...
As the reader, I love the fiction crafting, but I kinda roll my eyes about that aspect. That just sounds like a dare to me.



You know, Cthulhu could reach out to your mind anywhere in the world, and never let go. And tentacles? I mean lets not be squeamish. ...have you seen his Tinder?

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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Amor »

Cerber wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:02 am I don't have infinite growth potential in cognitive capacity
Fortunately the heart is much less constrained

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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Kath »

Amor wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:33 am
Cerber wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:02 am I don't have infinite growth potential in cognitive capacity
Fortunately the heart is much less constrained
I'm not convinced the mind is entirely limited by the brain either.

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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Amor »

>not convinced the mind is entirely limited by the brain either.

Quite so, but it is hard to remember what I thought when I was not in contact with the brain.

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Re: Using a single tool or index finger for all rituals?

Post by Kath »

Amor wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:13 am >not convinced the mind is entirely limited by the brain either.

Quite so, but it is hard to remember what I thought when I was not in contact with the brain.
Yeah
it's very annoying

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