Question about the kybalion

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garrettwittag
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Question about the kybalion

Post by garrettwittag »

Im familiar with my soul and the power that it holds. I'm also fairly experienced with the manifestation process. I was just re reading the ancient kybalion to kind of refresh what I knew, and I came across something that got me thinking. It says people who become highly advanced in spiritual practice and abuse it for selfish gain will be shot back to the opposite pole and will have to work hard to re reach spiritual enlightenment. My question is, what is considered selfish? Obviously its my responsibility to take care of my own wants and needs, but where do you draw the line?

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Re: Question about the kybalion

Post by Gravitation »

To be honest, I have never read the Kybalion, but I guess it would mean appealing to your lower nature. The beast inside.

EDIT: I suppose you draw the line beyond necessity, and the only real way to determine that is by seeing, feeling and thinking clearly.
"Freedom is not something you can have if you are enslaved to your weaknesses." - Manly P. Hall

"History is a process of metamorphosis. It's a pupation stage. It begins with naked monkeys and it ends with a human-machine planet-girdling interphase capable of releasing the energies that light the stars, and it lasts about fifteen or twenty thousand years and during that period the entire process hangs in the balance." - Terence Mckenna

garrettwittag
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Re: Question about the kybalion

Post by garrettwittag »

If you think about it like that though nothing is truly a necessity, except food, water, and shelter of course. I don't feel that's completely true though. As conscious beings, we have a "need" to achieve and live . We have a "need" to love and be loved. We have a "need" to feel valuable and contribute to the group. ALL progress and human greatness stems from these theoretical "needs" or wants. I'm sure the human species could have survived as hunter gathers if they were having enough babies, but the development of agriculture made life easier and was not quite a necessity. But as development continues and the population increases at some point you cross the line into being overly selfish. Its not all black and white though, so its hard to distinguish where the line is.

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Re: Question about the kybalion

Post by Gravitation »

garrettwittag wrote:If you think about it like that though nothing is truly a necessity, except food, water, and shelter of course. I don't feel that's completely true though. As conscious beings, we have a "need" to achieve and live . We have a "need" to love and be loved. We have a "need" to feel valuable and contribute to the group. ALL progress and human greatness stems from these theoretical "needs" or wants. I'm sure the human species could have survived as hunter gathers if they were having enough babies, but the development of agriculture made life easier and was not quite a necessity. But as development continues and the population increases at some point you cross the line into being overly selfish. Its not all black and white though, so its hard to distinguish where the line is.
Are you familiar with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs?

Image

wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_ ... y_of_needs

Maslow's theory seems to be in accordance with your own perspective of quantifiable human needs. I think the only way to truly evaluate if these needs have been met is through brutally honest self-analysis. Only the individual can determine for his or herself whether or not their needs are being met, through introspection and self-evidence. No one can teach anyone what it means to have a human experience, or what it means to be self-aware spiritual beings. These are questions that we all must answer for ourselves I think. Others words can guide us I believe, but they only guide insofar as we had acquired the proper knowledge and had enough life experience to grasp the intrinsic value of the words spoken.

But many people aren't interested in putting their life's effort into a task like this. Many people prefer, as you already stated, a life of convenience. Of doing less work and getting by with just feeling ok. Agriculture permits that kind of lifestyle.

A recent contemporary thinker, I forget who, once said something along the lines of the advent of agriculture was the single worst thing to happen to the human species and the planet I ultimately disagree with this statement, but I still think it is an important position to consider. Only an agricultural society could support a lifestyle of stagnation, obesity, toxification of the planet, slavery, mass killings, and other atrocities and heinous crimes against humanity. This would never happen in a hunter-gather society simply because of the austere nature of their survival practices. Minimalism and the awareness of nature's well being were essential.
"Freedom is not something you can have if you are enslaved to your weaknesses." - Manly P. Hall

"History is a process of metamorphosis. It's a pupation stage. It begins with naked monkeys and it ends with a human-machine planet-girdling interphase capable of releasing the energies that light the stars, and it lasts about fifteen or twenty thousand years and during that period the entire process hangs in the balance." - Terence Mckenna

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Napoli
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Re: Question about the kybalion

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garrettwittag wrote:Im familiar with my soul and the power that it holds. I'm also fairly experienced with the manifestation process. I was just re reading the ancient kybalion to kind of refresh what I knew, and I came across something that got me thinking. It says people who become highly advanced in spiritual practice and abuse it for selfish gain will be shot back to the opposite pole and will have to work hard to re reach spiritual enlightenment. My question is, what is considered selfish? Obviously its my responsibility to take care of my own wants and needs, but where do you draw the line?
That's a very tough question to answer. However, all I can say is this. Those who have attained spiritual enlightenment does not believe in the 'I' and 'they' anymore. Now when the ego self intervenes and successfully throws in the illusion of separation in the enlightened person's mind again, that's when the downfall begins.
In my sword I trust.

- Ensiferum

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Re: Question about the kybalion

Post by CCoburn »

@Napoli

That "illusion of separation" adds an interesting twist to the "Destruction of Spirit" thread.

I mean, how can you destroy something if it doesn't even exist as an individual thing, but is a facet of a larger thing. It makes me wonder what is actually happening in the destruction process.

Neither here nor there : CCoburn : The Road Scribe

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Napoli
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Re: Question about the kybalion

Post by Napoli »

Spida wrote:
@Napoli

That "illusion of separation" adds an interesting twist to the "Destruction of Spirit" thread.

I mean, how can you destroy something if it doesn't even exist as an individual thing, but is a facet of a larger thing. It makes me wonder what is actually happening in the destruction process.
Agreed [happy] .
In my sword I trust.

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LoneWolf
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Re: Question about the kybalion

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Napoli wrote:
Spida wrote:
@Napoli

That "illusion of separation" adds an interesting twist to the "Destruction of Spirit" thread.

I mean, how can you destroy something if it doesn't even exist as an individual thing, but is a facet of a larger thing. It makes me wonder what is actually happening in the destruction process.
Agreed [happy] .
My thoughts exactly Spida! That's why I think that destruction of the spirit can not take place or exist.

Ontopic,
Lately I've been giving some thought to the whole wealth and spiritual advancement.
Many weak humans are there that claim that in order to advance in spiritual growth one must distance and hold oneself back from the earthly: big food, big drink, big books, big activity, money projects and business, etc etc, while I do agree that when time has come to push to the aetheric one can't carry rocks on the pockets and therefore periods of being clean and weightless are needed, I strongly disagree with the idea of the physically weak, thin, socially subservient, poor, wannabeSage wannabeMagus or wannabeHermit archetype. Of course I too think what most of us would agree on the fact that the Ego must be made the whore and not the master, so don't missinterpret my ideas.

However, I believe no truly evolved and strong person lacks dominion over his environment. What do I mean? Those trying to make themselves a place in what I'll call other dimensions for argument's sake, that aren't able to live more than confortably in the dimension they experience the most time(earthly) shouldn't really try to expand themselves further than the ground and soil they try to run away from.

I do think that a man that 'slays dragons' in the astral can't feel social anxiety and cannot not have a strong presence that leads to good position on the earthly. From this idea of mine I assume therefore that being weak in the earthly translates into weakness of character that affects the 'other dimensions'. This character I believe is not only contained in the ego. And of course the converse, that being strong in the uncorporeal manifests itself into strong earthly attributes and personal characteristics(wealth position, profession, contacts, places for rituals, in short availability of resources and the attainment of ALL which is NEEDED for him to do what he must.)

Indeed Jesus didn't own multiple businesess and carried a gold chain and didn't patrol the street with a Ferrari but he could multiply fishes. He could make the water into wine. (ie. he didn't need to play the money game, work, be in the 'earthly' to attain his... mission)
Matthew 21:21 wrote:Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Could quote other Masters but with one Christ is enough.

I don't know about you but since I can't yet multiply fish and bread nor make water into wine nor make ravioli appear instantly on my plate and therefor feed off my will, I will get the most money I can so that I may do my own Magnus Opus without losing time with mere stupidity; AND MOREOVER let me add: The process from which I may get control and dominance over the earthly whether it is by sharpening my magickal abilities or making products or businesses in order to get money (both are optimal in my opinion, for I am human) IS TOO PART OF THE OPUS.

Once one attains high skill on the holy sciences, of course what used to be made in order to not waste time getting fed is now too irrelevant; and therefore wealth would be no more needed. However now no weak being would remain, but a master.

And unto your question let me give my personal opinion: I think they refer to the overindulgence on the earthly pleasures once the being has SEEN.

Imagine an ilumined being such as Jesus after he "got lost in the desert and therefor had grown and became initiated by the old Masters" Can you picture him only making wine manifest on top of him while having his mouth open for 24 hours? You can't, right? Of course, for when the knowing comes, these things lose its flavour. If for some weird reason these things wouldn't lose the flavour and the ilumined being would overindulge too much in such meaningless things I believe that's when the text advocates that this being would have to start over again because, let's be frank, something really went fucking wrong.

You say you've seen some things, let me give my opinion if it might aid you is that the line is drawn probably only for the intent. I don't see why having an orgy with 7 hot women every friday would be bad. I only can see it becoming bad if through it I escape what I must face or if through it I give my ego a boost and stop listening to some emotions that would point me to my true path, assuming this is not it.

I wish you well

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Re: Question about the kybalion

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LoneWolf wrote:I do think that a man that 'slays dragons' in the astral can't feel social anxiety and cannot not have a strong presence that leads to good position on the earthly. From this idea of mine I assume therefore that being weak in the earthly translates into weakness of character that affects the 'other dimensions'. This character I believe is not only contained in the ego. And of course the converse, that being strong in the uncorporeal manifests itself into strong earthly attributes and personal characteristics(wealth position, profession, contacts, places for rituals, in short availability of resources and the attainment of ALL which is NEEDED for him to do what he must.)
I disagree. Are you familiar with the mythic man, Aleister Crowley? He was certainly one of the greatest magicians of our time, but he was also utterly neurotic. And no matter how many beatific visions, how many prophetic voices, how many mystical insights he achieved, he still would have been neurotic.

I agree there is a stronger presence on the Earthly plane, as the practice of magick partially aims to strengthen the Will, but the skills and techniques for surviving an Earthly, or human existence, is completely context dependent. Some form of psychotherapy is necessary for any person living in a civilization, as civilization implies law, morality, and taboo. The origin of all repression and emotional trauma stems from these traits; From other people forcing their will and their demands upon you, without your direct consent. People telling you what your nature is or isn't. What you can or can't do; Who you can and can't be, etc. This is also called social adjustment, or becoming a good person or whatever.

Recovery must occur at the same level at which the social, emotional, and intellectual system neuroses formed. Magick and Mysticism will probably not cure them of these ailments.
"Freedom is not something you can have if you are enslaved to your weaknesses." - Manly P. Hall

"History is a process of metamorphosis. It's a pupation stage. It begins with naked monkeys and it ends with a human-machine planet-girdling interphase capable of releasing the energies that light the stars, and it lasts about fifteen or twenty thousand years and during that period the entire process hangs in the balance." - Terence Mckenna

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Re: Question about the kybalion

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Indeed I know about THE BEAST. And although I may have read some of his books I won't talk about somebody's sanity without having had an encounter with him. I don't also follow on what the point on quoting him was in this context. Help me here.

Are you saying that since He whom you consider one of the greatest magicians of our time appears to you as neurotic, becoming more in tune with our spirituality and growing makes us become neurotic unless we stop looking at the physical world?
Gravitation wrote:[...] Some form of psychotherapy is necessary for any person living in a civilization, as civilization implies law, morality, and taboo.
I can comprehend where this comes, however I disagree. I can see this human whole-being being contained in a rigid frame which causes some parts of it to be repressed and this may create the cause or need of "some sort of psychotherapy", however this happens on all levels. However violent it might be percieved by the tender creature.

We talking about the kybalion so it's only apropiate: ARE THERE NOT HIGHER LAWS than society's? DONT WE AS WHOLE BEINGS BECOME ALSO REPRESSED(defined) BY UNIVERSAL LAWS? DIDNT AIN SOPH AUR BECOME KETHER? VITRIOL? DON'T I LOSE SHIT or part of me TIL I'M GOLD (AGAIN)? CAN I NOT BE ANYTHING AT ANY GIVEN INSTANT BUT AM WHAT I AM CURRENTLY NOW? Do I need therapy for it?

NOW, DOES GRAVITY CARE ABOUT MORAL LAW? DIDNT THAT PIANO FALL ON TOP OF THE GOOD-MAN HEAD?

These bullshit things you talk about such as repressed pleasures and phobias and other demons I believe are to be slayed or integrated before one should get initiated or before one should start to grow.

I think that the great struggle comes from not doing our will. You seem to percieve the world as something ugly and hostile where "people inpart their will unto you" and while sadly that is true till you choose to do but yours, beautifully enough this is what teaches you the golden lesson: God gave you a phallus to use.

Wish you well

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Re: Question about the kybalion

Post by Oroboros »

Very much enjoyed this thread. Interesting views all around. If there is a like button- someone show it to me please:). I especially appreciated that you guys brought Maslow into the topic and Napoli's first response.

Anyway, in regards to the O.P.- 1st, I feel I need to state I have not read the Kyballion. But, as to what is selfishness...

I think the answer has nothing to do with self. It has to do with others. Specifically- are your actions likely to cause others physical, mental, or emotional harm?

For example. If I may, use the illustration about the weekly orgy with seven hot women. As a woman myself I must admit- I find that mildly distasteful [tongue2] . BUT, the answer to "is it selfish" is- it depends.

(all questions are rhetorical and are just to illustrate my point of course)
-Do you have a wife or girlfriend that may get hurt because of this?
- Are you spreading an STD?
-Do these women want to be there?, Are they enjoying this as much as you?-lol
..........SO, If I do a spell to get something I want, if I make sure I go about it in such a way that there is no FORESEEABLE negative impact on anyone else- not selfish, IMO.

I think one part of enlightenment, as previously stated (and previously worded better than this), is to recognize ourselves as part of a whole. One would not intentionally cut off one's nose to spite their face. So, why would we step on someone else to further our own gain?
"Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king."~Tywin Lannister, GOT

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Re: Question about the kybalion

Post by inMalkuth »

Thanks for the question and the discussion.

I see a lot of what I personally believe to be spiritual enlightenment in this thread. Any conversation that contributes to the awareness of our world and species as a whole gets points in my book. There were a couple of things I wanted to address here:

1. I believe that selfishness comes down to motive, and to the result of the actions that we take. Should we knowingly attempt to exert our will over another that would cost them something, be it money or power or influence or happiness... then we are using our awareness in a negative selfish way. Im sure it is all a matter of degrees, but what it comes down to is asking yourself if what you are doing seems wrong. Many people are self deceptive, and we cannot always control the reaction to our words and actions; but we can do our best, and I see that to be what matters most.

2. I do not know that you can destroy a soul or spirit completely without killing the individual in question. I do think that it can be affected and manipulated. In the case of someone who is thrown backwards due to selfishness this would probably be what occurs. I think that Divine Forces employ various means at their discretion based on the situation and the querents potential. What is a curse to me may be a blessing to you, depending on what you want to know and how you learn.

I agree that many people choose to be comfortable, or seek spirituality for a time to answer some difficult experiences and the choices they made because of them. Being a spiritual disciple of any system however generic of elaborate requires constant attention. From what I have seen, most people arent even sure what to look for in a system and so they dont do anything. This does not mean they are actually comfortable, but that they have settled with what they can know. As the meaning of Perdurabo goes: "I will endure to the end".

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