Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: Anubis RainHawk

I have been practicing Witchcraft for a while and plan to get into CM in a few years, but I was wondering how they were different. I know Witches use candles, herbs, and other natural items in their spells...but Ceremomial Magicians conjure spirits to achieve the result? A Witches ritual starts out by cleansing and casting the sacred space, calling the quartars, and then inviting Deity. How does a practioner of CM start a ritual?

I am aware that there is a difference in that Ceremonial Magick requires a lot more knowledge, but what are the other major differences?

Thanks for all your help:)

Anubis RainHawk

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: hitman777

That's kind of a tricky question, Anubis! Like most areas of magick, the two overlap. The way you described the beginning of your ritual workings is the same way I begin my own. One of the main differences is in how the two systems are said to have developed. CM in of itself is not considered by (some) of its practitioners to be a form of religious practice (though some will argue with this.) Really, it's been my experience that most magickally inclined Wiccans DO practice Ceremonial Magick, though many of them do not realize it.

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: I AM

There are a lot of differences between the two paths. While WICCA was influenced by Crowley (A Ceremonial Magickian) there exists a gulf between these two practices as well as a huge gulf between "Crafting" and Ceremonial.

The question you asks seems simple but the answer would take libraries to explain. Then, there are the different paths of Ceremonial Magick that also have to be taken into account and each of these would also take libraries to explain.

I recommend going to the Ceremonial section of the CM Library and checking out some of the books there. That will provide a basis to start. Summoning (Invoking AND Evoking) and the way it is done is one of the differences. The LBRP and other rituals (such as those in the RITUAL section of the same library) will show you other differences.

I hope this helps.

Humbly, I AM

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: Thalassa

Branches do have their specific things but actually magick is all the same. You use your will, intent, focus, desire, energy to achieve the results you want. So you dont necessarily need to label it. Of course if you are going to use specific rituals, methods of specific branches, thats different. But items, rituals, spells are a way focus, they are like a tool.

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: T~Gothe

I think alot of the difference between witchcraft and ceremonial magick lies in technicalities. As much as I respect the opinion of I AM, I must disagree with him. The methods and reasoning driving each path is (at its finest and probably most efficient) completely individualistic, and the only necessary incompatabilities arise from generalized assumptions about the nature of what is in reality a very personal thing.

As scientists use varying approaches to arrive at increasingly accurate depictions of reality, so must those in the 'Work.'

The differences are up to the individual, IMO.
I am aware that there is a difference in that Ceremonial Magick requires a lot more knowledge

Any system is as deep and technical as desired by the practicioner. CM just seems to attract more detail-fiends than some other paths, hence the appearance that it requires "more" than others.

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: Sarx

In so far as generalities re generally useless... here goes....

the differences in the color of candles aren't the point

witchcraft and cereemonial magic place different emphases on methods:
American craft tends to be spontaneous, creative, ecclectic. CM tends to be more linear, conservative and discliplined. A craft person might dance themselves into ecstasy. I've never known a CM-er who would do anything more than knee dance- heaven forbid the tiara might slide off. :)

Master each as their own disclipine rather than looking to do more mixing and matching. Each has a strength that tends to be weaker in the other. I think of the craft and CM as representing the polarities between the greater and lesser mysteries (greater and lesser ar not used as a value issue, but rather one of emphasis). Lesser mysteries are the things that wiccans groove on: healing, elemental work, earth magic, scrying, thaumaturyg etc- all those things that are about manifestation/individuation/personal power. The Greater Mysteries emphasize the transpersonal, archetypal, causal realms-all those things about universal consciousness and the deconstruction of the self. Join those two poles together and you have one hell of a wand. This is the reality behind "as above, so below" because the practioner can seamlessly bridge the gross, subtle and causal realms (or physical, astral and etheric planes). Now that's cool!

best wishes on your journey

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: Tyrione/Taireon

The fact you are attempting to merge Egyptology with Wicca should be a clue that your answers are not being found within Wicca and that doesn't surprise me.

What is with this 'plan' to get into CM, in a few years?

What is stopping you from starting now?

The objective of all ritual symbolism is to stimulate mental factions that can call this imagery into one's mind, ultimately at will, so that your Temple is from within and not some circle you need to cast in a room.

We are all in need of practice, practice, practice.

My recommendation is that you study Raja Yoga, Kundhalini Yoga and Hatha Yoga to give yourself a much greater insight into what Western Ceremonial Magick does and as a tool does for you.



[QUOTE=Anubis RainHawk]I have been practicing Witchcraft for a while and plan to get into CM in a few years, but I was wondering how they were different. I know Witches use candles, herbs, and other natural items in their spells...but Ceremomial Magicians conjure spirits to achieve the result? A Witches ritual starts out by cleansing and casting the sacred space, calling the quartars, and then inviting Deity. How does a practioner of CM start a ritual?

I am aware that there is a difference in that Ceremonial Magick requires a lot more knowledge, but what are the other major differences?

Thanks for all your help:)

Anubis RainHawk[/QUOTE]

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: insert_name_here

I take it you mean modern Paganism and Wicca as Witchcraft, check out the history of these subjects, alot of stuff influenced them. Including CM. Thanks.

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: Gryzlgreedigutt

For me, a person who started out a wiccan, there is no difference Magickally speaking. But what I LEARNED from the two paths was different and influenced my approach to them as unique entities. From Wicca I learned to have spiritual love for The Goddess and the earth. CM got me onto the path of High magick, The love of God and aspiring to your true will. Both are beautiful, both are similar and you know what? even though My path is primarily Solar now every full moon I'm out there giving thanks to my Goddess for leading me to this balance. And ever day I thank God.

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: Jenfucius

[QUOTE=Tyrione/Taireon]
My recommendation is that you study Raja Yoga, Kundhalini Yoga and Hatha Yoga to give yourself a much greater insight into what Western Ceremonial Magick does and as a tool does for you.[/QUOTE]I would add that raja yoga, kundalini yoga, hatha yoga etc. are Eastern systems particular to India and shouldnt be identify or rather confused with pure Western Ceremony Magick (This distinction should be made at least.). I would add that alot of Western Ceremonial Magick uses alot of these Eastern practices though.
----------------------------------------------------
Alot of Western Magick seems to stem from the Kabahlah (btw theres different spellings for the name. ie Kabbahla, cabala, Qabahla etc) which originally was a Jewish system. Also to add more alot of Western Ceremonial systems in particular incorates the teachings of the magickal order of THE GOLDEN DAWN. I would add most Western systems are mixed with something----- i.e. Egyptian inspire magick, Chinese divination like the I Ching, Qabahla- Jewish system (as I already mentioned), Hindu systems etc etc. Not that theres anything wrong with that of course. I just wanted to say it in a way as to be historically as accurate as possible (in a nut shell).

Its all good of course. :-D

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: Mosieur D

"have been practicing Witchcraft for a while and plan to get into CM in a few years"
What kind of witchcraft? wicca? peganism?

"but I was wondering how they were different"
first of all,CM contain witchcraft.
CM is High magick , the main aim of it is climb and rech into the divinity, the Golden Dawn called this level "Ipissimus". High magick usualy has judo-christian symbols.
Low magick, it's very free, I mean, your believe can change, and you can involve all kind of stuff, where in CM it has regular rituals.

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Original post: Aodh

Wicca does not constitute Witchcraft and niether does Paganism. Wicca is a religious path developed by Gardner in the 1950's. Paganism is a term which encompasses all pre-Christian and most reconstructionist religions. Being Wiccan or Pagan does not mean you practice magick in any form just as being Christian does not denote you are straight. Many are practitioners of magick, but not all. It was assumed this person was WIccan by the way they signed their message I'm guessing. Now, Ceremeonial Magick = High Magick in general use. Witchcraft = Low magick generally. Witchcraft generally centers around solving problems in this world and uses invocationa nd evocation quite a bit. CM generally centers around metaphysical developement for personal growth etc and while it can be used to solve problems like to stop someone who nags frequently, it is more often intended to be performed for other reasons. WItchcraft is generally hard to class as it's practices are so eclectic where as in the beggining most Ceremonial Magicians start on a highly-preconcieved path and gradually develop on their own. I may try and compare-contrast mor elater.

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: Anubis RainHawk

Thanks to everyone who responed to my question. I learned a lot, but I realized that I needed to me more specific *LOL* :)

How does a CM-er look at magick? Is it a spiritual act?

In Wiccan Magick (yes that is what I currently practice), we use stones, herbs, colors,etc. to boost our spell, but the end result is ultimately up to the practioner. Correct me if I'm wrong, but CM-ers conjure spirits to work fulfil their needs. Is that a particular tradition, or do all practions of CM do that?

There seems to be a lot attention on God (I'm guessing the Judeo-Christian+Islamic form) is this correct? Are pagan deities used as often? I read somewhere that the majorityof CM practioners are pagan, is that correct?

Thank you guys so much for all your help

Anubis RainHawk

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: Fr. Qim

Are we talking about belief systems or magickal techniques?

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: Anubis RainHawk

I guess both...if that's not asking too much...or where I could find this info

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: Fr. Qim

Well, the thing is that CM isn't really much of a belief system in and of itself. You can have a Jewish, Chrisitian, Muslum, Wiccan, Satanic, Thelemite etc...etc.... It's really more a matter of techniques used. That's a little overlly simple. Being a CM does impart a certain point of view, but for the purposes of this discussion it will be an acceptable generalization. Witchcraft is really a certain nature neo-pagan belief system with some importated magickal techniques.

Think of it this way. Witchcraft is a certain type of world veiw and a particular type of magick. Ceremonial Magick is the science of magick ITSELF, generally being expressed through a common language so that we CM's can communicate with each other.

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: Anubis RainHawk

ok. Thank u, Fr.Qim. That makes a lot of sense :)

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Witchcraft vs. Ceremonial Magick

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Original post: Jenfucius

[QUOTE=Anubis RainHawk]
..... Correct me if I'm wrong, but CM-ers conjure spirits to work fulfil their needs. Is that a particular tradition, or do all practions of CM do that?

Anubis RainHawk[/QUOTE]
To answer your question Anubis I would say that the conjure of spirits is only one aspect of CM. Not all CM practitioners conjure spirits to practice CM. Although many strive to do a conjuration (Evocation) somewhere on their magickal path (Its advance art). CM involves rituals as well and a host of ther things like making talismans, divination etc.
I dont know if I can say its a particular tradition although its quite common in many western grimoires etc. There isnt really one "tradition" in CM as there are many different schools of it. Although alot of Western CM seems to revolve around The Order of Golden Dawn system's of magick.

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Original post: Mosieur D

"Wicca does not constitute Witchcraft and niether does Paganism. Wicca is a religious path developed by Gardner in the 1950's. Paganism is a term which encompasses all pre-Christian and most reconstructionist religions"
wicca is neo-paganism

"or do all practions of CM do that?"
using rituals.

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Original post: Jenfucius

I would add theres a difference between what some may term as: "Low Magick" and "High Magick"

The main difference is the type of sophistication that is being used. "Low Magick" tend to focus more on the use of natural materials; the use of nature etc. It tends to focus less on the intellect. Although I would add theres some very complex primitive magickal systems practiced out there. Like among the Hopi Indians, Dogon etc. [They may look primitive on the outside but they have some very complex religious practices that are not scene by the naked eye].

Where as High Magick tend to focus alot on a intellectual aspect and alot of scholary type of studying. It evolves alot of reading and writing (like writing i.e. talismans) (reading kabablistic texts) etc.

*I know theres a better explanation that could be given but my brain isnt thinking right now. I need more coffee.;-)

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Original post: Tyrione/Taireon

There is no such construct as Pure Western Ceremonial Magick.

It draws from the East firstly and then towards the West and Modern Science.

[QUOTE=Jenfucius]I would add that raja yoga, kundalini yoga, hatha yoga etc. are Eastern systems particular to India and shouldnt be identify or rather confused with pure Western Ceremony Magick (This distinction should be made at least.). I would add that alot of Western Ceremonial Magick uses alot of these Eastern practices though.
----------------------------------------------------
Alot of Western Magick seems to stem from the Kabahlah (btw theres different spellings for the name. ie Kabbahla, cabala, Qabahla etc) which originally was a Jewish system. Also to add more alot of Western Ceremonial systems in particular incorates the teachings of the magickal order of THE GOLDEN DAWN. I would add most Western systems are mixed with something----- i.e. Egyptian inspire magick, Chinese divination like the I Ching, Qabahla- Jewish system (as I already mentioned), Hindu systems etc etc. Not that theres anything wrong with that of course. I just wanted to say it in a way as to be historically as accurate as possible (in a nut shell).

Its all good of course. :-D[/QUOTE]

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Original post: Otto von Skar

I see ceremonial magic as a practice, a means to an end (and the ends are quite varied depending on one's intent). Wicca, Thelema, Satanism, etc. are belief systems, philosophies, behavior models, and so on that employ CM to one degree or another.

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Original post: Anubis RainHawk

Thank you all for responding. It really helped :)

Anubis RainHawk

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Original post: Panu Nahka

As I see it, the biggest difference between the Witchcraft and Ceremonial Magick to be the difference in paradigms. Former is more religious way to address magick, while other is more "rational" in it's outlook. Same kind of difference could be seen on their history. Witchcraft was more primordial, primitive and living way to interpret and use the reality, while CM was more civilized, sterile and codified in it's approach.

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