The Binding Of Goetic Entities To Our Will.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Deckard

I am asking several questions in this topic. There has to be more theory to this than just burning and torturing the Goeticâ??s seal.

• Where can I find specific information on what element corresponds to which Goetic spirit? The author of a post (sorry I couldnâ??t find it) before the last hack stated something to the affect that, a demon can be bound/controlled by the element in opposition to the one with which it is associated
• Which elements are in opposition to each other? And why? Direct opposition? Partial opposition? What do I mean by direct and partial? Look at the symbols below as if you were taking a non-verbal IQ type test. Notice that each symbol has color (yeah, earth should be brown), points up or down and either has an extra horizontal element or does not.

• What experiences have you had in putting this or any other form of binding into practice?
• Maybe this is not too important but how does the Goeticâ??s will come into play here?

I would like to refer you to my previous topic
http://www.occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=5384
which asked a similar question. The original informative replies are greatly appreciated. If you have anything else to add there, I will be watching it also.

The term â??exorciseâ??, as I understand it, has strong connotations of â??bindingâ??. I would like to approach from this angle. I believe â??fully embracing my divinityâ?? is best but if I could, at this time, do this â??fullyâ?? I would have much less need to call on the spirit.

Thank you for your time.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Aodh

Generally excorcism is teh driving out of the spirit. I suppose it can be viewed as related due to the fact that it's when one excercises his will over a spirit. In the case of elements and binding, what exactly are you meaning when you say, bound by the opposing element. Do you mean the elemental king of the opposing element etc?

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Master of the Abyss

The goetics are not traditionally associated with any set of elements. You can invent and add such an attribution, but you do so at your own risk. Well, you do everything goetic at your own risk, but you get my drift.

There is quite a number of opinions on how the elements are interrelated. The more common ones are the really old-fashioned one (Fire - hot & dry, Water - cold & wet, ...), the Golden Dawn one (Air - east & intellect, Fire - south & will, ...) and the Bardon one (Fire - positive, Water - negative, Air - balance, Earth - synthesis). Pick or invent.

In general, questions on magical attributions and correspondences are relative to your paradigm. State which you are working in (Golden Dawn? Thelemic? Any particular author or book?) and you might be helped.

[quote=""Deckard""]There has to be more theory to this than just burning and torturing the Goeticâ??s seal.[/quote] Sure, if you say so. The system just doesn't originally include it. Anything beyond the original text is speculation. Some has been shown to work (such as the Headless Invocation), some has been discounted (such as the necessity of the elaborate circle), some is questionable (such as the attribution or "ruling" angels of the Shemhamphorash). But still, it is not like there "has" to be more to it. Except one might wish to understand what context the book was originally used in - i.e. Roman Catholic dogma. Which has piles of theory in itself.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Aodh

Really? I thought they were. *will have to doublecheck*

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Mosieur D

In Liber777, you can find the goetic demons and planets associated with them, so you can associate each demon to the elements in detour way (i.e. bael associated with the sun, so bael associate with the fire element). you have to remember that crowley's technics is little diffrent from GD technics

burning/torturing the seal? I never heard such thing, I thing this is pretty idiotic;
a. you destroing the seal, and destroy your connection path with the entity
b. do you care that i'll take your name end burn it? so y' should he care?

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Aodh

There's stuff like the conjuration of the Fire for if the being was disobedient but I don't think one uses the sigil or tortures the sigil in that.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Deckard

Aodh wrote: Generally excorcism is teh driving out of the spirit. I suppose it can be viewed as related due to the fact that it's when one excercises his will over a spirit. In the case of elements and binding, what exactly are you meaning when you say, bound by the opposing element. Do you mean the elemental king of the opposing element etc?

I wish I could explain it better. If you have done it and are willing to share...

...Technically, exorcism is not driving out the Devil or a demon, but it is placing the Devil or demon on oath. And, in some incidences there may be more than one demon possessing a person. "Exorcism" is derived from the Greek preposition "ek" with the verb "horkizo" which means "I cause [someone] to swear" and refers to "putting the spirit or demon on oath," or invoking a higher authority to bind the entity in order to control it and command it to act contrary to its own will...
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/e/exorcism.html

Exorcism seems to be the operating principle that makes all this stuff work.

Master of the Abyss wrote: In general, questions on magical attributions and correspondences are relative to your paradigm. State which you are working in (Golden Dawn? Thelemic? Any particular author or book?) and you might be helped...And he continues: Sure, if you say so. The system just doesn't originally include it. Anything beyond the original text is speculation. Some has been shown to work (such as the Headless Invocation), some has been discounted (such as the necessity of the elaborate circle), some is questionable (such as the attribution or "ruling" angels of the Shemhamphorash). But still, it is not like there "has" to be more to it. Except one might wish to understand what context the book was originally used in - i.e. Roman Catholic dogma. Which has piles of theory in itself.

First of all I am very glad you replied here. Your advice to me in my topic 'A Change in the Room' kicked ass. I made a contact the night you posted.

I don't know if I quite have a paradigm. I was raised roman catholic, went to their schools and explored what mysticism they 'tollerated' and beyond. I don't believe that stuff at all anymore (feel stupid for having ever) and don't trust anything that has the faintest smell of jesus (I apoligize, because this will offend some). I suppose Golden Dawn would be closest but can not say I agree with everthing of theirs either. I lean toward Loquette(OTO), I suppose. All I know is that the entities are real, they show up, they voulenteer specific information (which I later validate) but won't answer specific questions. That is, the nice ones don't the mean ones try to breach my circle. This gets creepy but I have never been harmed.
I suppose I would need to compare a couple opinions and get some input on tecnique. Or at least where to research these.

Here is an example originally posted by LadyHydralisk 07-01-2004:
Marbas:
Element: Water
Herb/Incense: Cedar
Abilities: Healing, causing disease, teaching, sexual posession

What would the GD, Thelemic and OTO angles be if anyone could give these as an example? Where/what would you recomend so I can work out the other Goetics? What other advise do you have? I am sorry. I have been here at OF since September '03 and have only started 3 topics with less than 10 posts. I am really trying to ask the right questions. I put a lot of thought into them and I might not be smart enough to ask them correctly. I must add I never sought this path. It drafted me!

Also, I am seeking to have mutually profitable relationships with these entities. I am not seeking to push them around.
Thanks for your time.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Deckard

Mosieur D wrote: In Liber777, you can find the goetic demons and planets associated with them, so you can associate each demon to the elements in detour way (i.e. bael associated with the sun, so bael associate with the fire element). you have to remember that crowley's technics is little diffrent from GD technics

burning/torturing the seal? I never heard such thing, I thing this is pretty idiotic;
a. you destroing the seal, and destroy your connection path with the entity
b. do you care that i'll take your name end burn it? so y' should he care

Ok, so followng that what is the opposite of FIRE? In the real world you can put out a fire with water, dirt, and even air. Hell, applied correctly, you can even put one out with fire!

I haven't done such a thing but the Lesser key states to the affect, If they don't asnwer your demands first curse them with the names of god. If that dosen't work put their seal in a stinky box...

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Aodh

You want an even-sided relationship yet you wish to bind them? *rolls eyes* Okay, who gets to be foreced to do things against their will first, you or them?

Ah, yet another bit of history on the word exorcise.
[indent][QUOTE] [indent]Dictionary.com

Word History: An oath is to be found at the etymological heart of exorcise, a term going back to the Greek word exorkizein, meaning â??to swear in,â?Â

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Deckard

Aodh wrote:You want an even-sided relationship yet you wish to bind them? *rolls eyes* Okay, who gets to be foreced to do things against their will first, you or them?...

Dude, I don't need you to roll your eyes at me. I roll them at myself way too often. But what you could do is either share with all of us just how you do it or start a new topic about how much of a moron I am. Or if you are really smart, come up with a theory of how the elements interact.

My words were...I am seeking to have mutually profitable relationships with these entities. I am not seeking to push them around.

I should have phrased it: I would prefer to have mutually profitable relationships with these entities. I am not seeking to push them around.
I should have added...But I mean to get what I want from them.
If this is unrealistic I must be posting in the wrong place. OK, if I want to have leverage in reserve does that make me a bully or a hypocrite? Then I must be.

Let me try to relate this, a tiny bit closer, to the mundane world. How whould you deal with a 15ft tall, 900lb toddler? He would get his way, unless he knew you could spank him with your 200lb hand. Also, would a bank give you the deed to your new house with only a $10,000 deposite? LEVERAGE, if you don't have it you get nowhere.

My gut tells me that these entities enjoy being called on/needed. They relish being able to get away with all that they can. They have all the time in the universe and they won't do my will untill I know I can make them. It is clear to me that I have a lot to learn.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Mosieur D

[QUOTE=Deckard]Ok, so followng that what is the opposite of FIRE? In the real world you can put out a fire with water, dirt, and even air. Hell, applied correctly, you can even put one out with fire!

I haven't done such a thing but the Lesser key states to the affect, If they don't asnwer your demands first curse them with the names of god. If that dosen't work put their seal in a stinky box...[/QUOTE]
I didn't understand the first paragraph.
bael , sun sun,fire bael,fire

I saw that now, I don't recommend doing that. it's make the summoning imposible.
In "illustrated goetia" I didn't saw such thing.
I recommend this book to anyone that can see himself as master of art, and ready to see himself summon successfuly.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Aodh

Gah I had a huge reply written out but then I ended up not being able to post it because someone else had replied and it changed the link =_= Lemme show what I view as elemental detriment. Fire<Earth Earth<Air Air<Water Water<Earth so if I was trying to bring elements in I'd summon in a planetary hour highest in correspondence with the element of detriment. But really I doubt that when working with anything other than elementals that this would be all that useful.

Binding is to basically force someone/something to do something or not do something. WIth entities the general purpose of a binding is to either make it so that it can't do anything against your wishes (Hard thing in my opinion and unless created by you or you're an adept I'd say it's impossible to do permanently to an entity such as a Goetic or a Nec) or make it hard for it to do anything you don't want it to do so that you can push it into doing things you want it to do. This is not leverage as it messes with free will. Leverage is knowing Billy had sex with Suzy so you blackmail one of them by saying you'll tell Suzy's 8 foot macho-man boyfriend with guns. Generally with most entities a binding would be a bad idea as once they're loose of it they'll be mighty pissed off From what I've read on dealings with Goetics and from my own experience with non-Goetics, if you're ready and you're doing it right they'll choose to obey of their own volition for a multitude of reasons. Or you can go to their commanding 'officer' and blackmail them somehow. :p But then again, blackmail would probably piss them off too. *shrugs*

Disclaimer: Elemental detriments were based off of my beliefs, experiences, etc so they may not work for you. Remember, using your own head is important here

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: hitman777

This is not meant to sound smart alecky, but what exactly was the initial question, and what has the thread developed into? I can't whether you guys are still talking about goetics or not. If I understand correctly, are you trying to use the Goetia spirits to equilibriate the elements? I don't really understand what your point. Not to be an @$$, just unclear here.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Aodh

He asked about how to bind Goetic's and one of the methods he inquired about was how to bind them "by the element in opposition to the one with which it is associated"

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Mosieur D

In the end, you make deal with them, not forcing them to do something.
you make offer, they want more, using virbration of divine names argues and threates you make them want what you offer them.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Gryzlgreedigutt

I say just bind IT with the power of God the elements are already there anyway.

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Original post: LadyHydralisk

This sounds to me like an irrelevant study, I don't think you can pigeonhole most of the goetics to one element. They are not elementals they are demons. I've never used element specific work with demons or goetic demons, it's not necessary. Even if they claimed to be composed of one element or associated with one element I don't think you control them through that. I don't think they can or ever have been publically analyzed and described by any human mind at this point in our understanding. They are immortal beings of the magical world, and I think that their constitution and existence cannot be grasped through our feeble understanding of the elements. There is simply too much we don't know about their world and how it works. Everything is either educated speculation or illusion.

I would attempt to evocate and exert control via the traditional manner or something close to it, since this is what we know works, it's pretty easy to understand why it works. A lion tamer doesn't need to know what chemicals a lion is made up of to tame it, just a good understanding of the nature of the lion.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Deckard

In the future, I will try to ask only one question per topic. For now, if you are interested, just look below and take a stab at it. State what you believe and more importantly why.


Which elements are in opposition to each other? And why? Direct opposition? Partial opposition? What do I mean by direct and partial? Look at the symbols below as if you were taking a non-verbal IQ type test. Notice that each symbol has color (yeah, earth should be brown), points up or down and either has an extra horizontal element or does not.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Aodh

Fire

Helper: Air
Partial Opposition: Water
Direct Opposition: Earth
Why: Water can douse a fire but it can also 'be doused'. Water is fluid and fairly uniform. It flows to fill a space. Fire is dynamic and spreads uncontrollably if no barriers are present and also if many are to a point. Water and fire create steam, an afteraffect that is a product of both so combined they also have their own use. Earth is stable and unmoving. In real life one can toss dirt onto a fire to put it out much easier when it's bonfire size than if they used water. A combination of water and earth would be even better. Air feeds fires and sustains them. Air sustains mental capacity in the metaphysical sense.

This is an example in a minor sense of how I view the interaction of the elements with fire. I will not get into how I view the others as it can be seen to some extent from this and mainly, it's a personal thing.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Master of the Abyss

[quote=""Mosieur D""]In the end, you make deal with them, not forcing them to do something.[/quote]This is not necessarily true. Making a deal is the common method of working with goetic spirits among beginners and practitioners from certain traditions (shamanism, chaos magic, voudou-inspired practitioners,...), but it is far from the only one and certainly not the one the Goetia was originally intended for. Other ideas include that the demon is forced to do the right thing (which incapable to do of his own accord) by the power of god, thus redeeming itself a bit, or that the magician forces the goetics to do his bidding by sheer force of will. None I know bind demons by the power of the elements.

Of course, you could invent a new method that does. I assume the reason this has not, so far, been done is that the elements are considered microcosmic, and the demons macrocosmic, which makes a lot of difference in traditional forms of magic - and demon work is a very traditional form of magic. If you would like to try an approach that uses the elements, and might even be tolerated by the traditionalists, try using the zodiac as an elemental pattern. The signs belong to the elements, their order and arrangement is not a matter of debate, they form a convenient circle to trap and bind stuff in, and come with one hell of a lot of angels, genii and other helpful guys to make sure the demon keeps out of mischief. Sounds like a plan? (Disclaimer: this is untested.)

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Abaivonin

There are some Goetics who are basically our servants but others are more powerful and an untrained magus can be killed or worse. That whole curse of chains crap doesn't work against REAL demons,and any who would put their faith in such medieval nonsense can end up in a very bad spot.