Magick without the Ceremony?

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Original post: Nalyd23

How many Ceremonial Magickians on OF actually practice this Magick without all of the metaphorical ceremony? Does anyone actually take the working techniques and strip them of their symbols, deities, demons, angels, etc.? How literally do you take these things? I have never claimed to be a Ceremonial Magickian, but I have drawn great inspiration from Crowley and some others in this field and I definately have a Thelemic ethic. As a matter of fact I am very Thelemic in Life. I am just curious and not trying to slight anyone's personal paths in any way. I had a recent conversation with a friend about Thelema being the "true religion" of Chaos Magick and this is what has prompted me to ask these questions. I am not sure about anything being a "true religion" of anything, but I do think I understand that analogy for the Chaos persuasion, as an ethical model.

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Original post: Defgarden

To strip ceremony of its symbols is the science behind the mysteries. But when then do you get once you reach the core?

My idea when it comes to ceremony is that it is basically there to serve as a level of reverance given to an act of magick, aiding to it's importance and therefore aiding it's results. Without this level of reverance, at least for me, the magick would be less effective.

Everything is made up. Nothing is true, everything is permitted. But of course, with this said, if I try doing magick like I shave my face (an everyday or so routine) I'm bound to end up with some cuts and bruises. Maybe that's a bad example.

Of the stripping of symbols. It's fine to strip rituals of their symbols and ponder their meanings and see what makes them tick. That is the mark of an artisan studying another's work. But, as it is said, the sum of the parts is not equal to the whole. As with any piece of good art, once it is overanalyzed it loses some of it's power. Well, those are just some thoughts. I'm not of clear mind to answer any further. Blech.

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Original post: tempest

I have often wondered about this "stripping away of the unessentials." The problem is, I am not knowledgeble enough in the art to know what is 'unessential' and what isn't. Magick is built on symbolism and the connection between your higher conciousness and said symbols, i.e.: angels, demons, flaming chickens & the like - can be manipulated in ritual as symbolic elements of your life. I am also curious about what the 'core' skills are that are necessary to produce results, like the Jeet Kune Do of Magick, if you will - martial arts without the B.S., to draw a loose analogy...

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Original post: Nalyd23

Well the Jeet Kune Do of Magick would obviously be the Chaos current right now.
"No way as way. No limitation as limitation." - Bruce Lee
What does that vaguely sound like?
I think personally that Shamanism and elements of Witchcraft and Sorcery are the closest things to tapping the raw energy of Magick. This is more where Chaos Magick draws from, maybe unknowingly. Chaos Magick is nothing new in other words. Ceremonial Magick is a fairly new creation and obviously was not always needed. It is geared towards the Western analytical mind. Like I said in my first post, I am in no way criticizing Ceremonial Magick, just trying to expand some horizons here. I know some may point out that Witchcraft is Thaumaturgy and Ceremonial is Theurgy but I am of the opinion that these distinctions are irrelevant and are relative to the practitioner's "intent". A Witch can be practicing with the same intention and goals as an adept in the OTO. The basic working techniques of Magick are what I am interested in getting at. I think they are the same and universal, if they are not then why does it all appear to work towards the same ends? I know of one on OF who claims no need for the "gimmicks" of pomp and ceremony, which to me is mood and setting replacing being on top of a plateau with a huge bonfire daring the gods to come and play kind of thing. Maybe I am talking out my ass here too.

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Original post: Defgarden

Well no, ceremony is not needed or neccesary by any standard. It is simply one method of attaining the link to our subconcious. I think it works so well in our society because of the mundaneness of our everyday lives. We make such a habit of almost everything that the ceremony of a magickal ritual separates that act from everything else we do, making it more aligned with our will.

As far as the fundamental of magick, the energies tapped by a magician of any mythos or method are the same, we are simply tapping into the creative sense. The multitudes of methods of evoking such powers and energies are as infinite as the night sky herself.

Magick certainly needs no ceremony to work. Life certainly is proof of that. We simply need proper intent, proper focus, and proper control, in my view. I do this by doing things very ceremonially. Others may do it by snapping their fingers, farting towards all the quarters, whatever.

Some people talk about the LBRP like it's the greatest thing given to mankind. Honestly, I think it's a great ritual, but I don't see it as God's gift to ritual. I use it myself as a banishing ritual, but only because I haven't put the time in to write one myself, and I don't feel as comfortable using other banishings such as the Star Ruby. But seriously, people talk like the LBRP is the Stone of the Wise, and that if you don't realize this, you shouldn't be fit to use it.

Ok Crowley (excuse me while I rant for a sec). I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THE LBRP IS THE STONE OF THE WISE! Should I not then be allowed to use it? And if so, why not? Seriously, my faculties of understanding seem to be a bit lacking. Perhaps I want answers now. Or simply, perhaps I just don't care. Perhaps I will use it anyway, knowing the benefits it gives me, ignoring your claims of it being the greatest thing in the friggin universe. Perhaps I'll write my own ritual and call it the stone of the wise. Yea, then I'll throw that stone at someone's head.

Perhaps, just perhaps, I shouldn't post after drinking anymore.

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Original post: Nalyd23

Maybe you should drink more before posting Defgarden.:lol: I thought that was good, well until that last paragraph, whatever you were on about there I will leave for someone else to interpret.

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Original post: Kuroi Kaze

I don't need and mostly don't use ceremony for result-orientated magick. For High Magick, however, I wouldn't want to have it any other way than to use ceremony. There are other ways, but this is the way I do things.

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Original post: I AM

As a short answer, no ceremony is NOT necessary. However, when working with CM it is VERY advisable especially in the early years of practice.

Many of the Entities that we call are too dangerous for us to handle without protection. That is part of what ritual is for. To protect us as we grow. Notice that I said that is PART of what ritual is for. Ritual also develops within the Magickian, in a structured methodology, personal power. AS this power grows so does the True Magickal capability of the Magickian.

To explain, when we summon we often use the Magickal capabilities of the Entity we are summoning to achieve our ends. As we grow the need for external Entities diminishes. We can achieve our desires DIRECTLY. However, to get to this point SIGNIFICANT growth has to occur. The RAW power of the Entities is also OUR power once we learn to master it. That is part of what summoning is all about.

I DO NOT recommend that beginning magickians pursue this line of thought if summoning entities. When you are ready you will know.

I do not mean to sound arrogant in any way. However this is the answer to your question based on my experience.

Humbly, I AM

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Original post: Mmothra

Ritual also develops within the Magickian, in a structured methodology, personal power.

I AM, this is my understanding as well. Ceremony creates a context or magickal space within which to transcend the boundaries not only of our physical environment but also our humanity and workaday consciousness, merging with and becoming divine (identifying first with a deity or other god-form, but then ultimately recognizing that these intermediary personas are unnecessary). I AM said it most clearly:

...when we summon we often use the Magickal capabilities of the Entity we are summoning to achieve our ends. As we grow the need for external Entities diminishes. We can achieve our desires DIRECTLY. However, to get to this point SIGNIFICANT growth has to occur. The RAW power of the Entities is also OUR power once we learn to master it. That is part of what summoning is all about.

Now, like you, Nalyd23, I am not a ceremonial magickian...any workings I do tend to fall into the Chaos or Shamanic currents--that is "home" for me. However, whether you are a CM or not, you use ceremony and ritual whether you realize it or not...it is all "set and setting" as good Dr. Leary used to say, and whether or not you wear robes and wield the lotus wand or not, you utilize the astral or imaginal to transcend physical and psychic limitations.

My $.02...for what it's worth.


Markus Mmothra

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Original post: Nalyd23

Wish I had time right now to get into this, I knew I shouldn't have stopped by now. BTW, I received no email notifications since this morning on any of these threads that I have started or posted in since then. They have obviously gotten a lot of responses. Has there been a problem today in that area? OK, back on topic.

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Original post: Hoor-paar-Kraat

It's like music or painting theory. You need to learn the rules backwards and forwards so you can use them without thinking about them as well as being able to break them.

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Original post: visceral/spagyrical

or writing.

v/s

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Original post: KCh

The spells exist to exhalt the mind and nothing more. Its akin to an immediate trance technique if you want to get simplistic.

Anyone who is following, or attempting to follow, their own will is a Thelemite, no argument. It matters not what you call yourself, in fact labels are exactly what bring you back to duality. Screaming 'I am this' 'I am that' does nothing and means nothing. It is best not to make distinctions.

The next time you get into a conversation with a buddy end it by saying 'Does it really matter?'. Well does it?

Nothing is Universal, Everything is Relative. When I say this I mean two things at once, the first is plain as the sunlight, the other is a light so bright it blinds the unworthy.

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Original post: Nalyd23

Well, I received ALL of my email notifications at once when I got home a few minutes ago.
Just want to say, I AM, as usual, I knew you would put something good here. You said before the last crash that you would like to see more of me in this forum, so, HERE I AM!:mrgreen: Mmothra, well you and I have similar trains of thought obviously so there is nothing I can say to that. [QUOTE=Kuroi Kaze]I don't need and mostly don't use ceremony for result-orientated magick. For High Magick, however, I wouldn't want to have it any other way than to use ceremony.[/QUOTE]Is not all Magick "result-orientated"? People seem to make this distinction a lot. Maybe explain to me what is is you are trying to achieve with High Magick. My second post up there touched this but I would like someone else to explain this distinction. I know we all have our own "take" on these things and sometimes it helps to explain your personal "take" on it before you use a term and expect everyone to understand your meaning of that term. Like I said, I make no distinctions between the two. I even have a thread on it here for anyone interested in my silly theories - The Spectral Theory of High/Low Magick.

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Original post: Nalyd23

[QUOTE=KCh]The next time you get into a conversation with a buddy end it by saying 'Does it really matter?'. Well does it?[/QUOTE]Well, we are both a step ahead of you, we both end all of our conversations with that exact quote, "Does it really matter?":D Go to that link I provided in my previous post and look how I end my first post in that thread.:lol:

EDIT : I'll make it easy on ya. Here is the line from my other thread.[QUOTE=Nalyd23]Just like the theory I presented above, it doesn't really matter and doesn't change the fact that we are going to keep practicing this interesting psychological artform regardless of it's name or what scientific theory helps explain it.[/QUOTE]

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Original post: Kuroi Kaze

[QUOTE=Nalyd23]Is not all Magick "result-orientated"? People seem to make this distinction a lot. Maybe explain to me what is is you are trying to achieve with High Magick. My second post up there touched this but I would like someone else to explain this distinction. I know we all have our own "take" on these things and sometimes it helps to explain your personal "take" on it before you use a term and expect everyone to understand your meaning of that term.[/QUOTE]
The idea I was trying to convey with the term "result-orientated" magick is what is commonly called "low magick". As in, magick to help you pass an exam or make someone fall in love with you... to name two stereotypes.

High Magick means exploration and evolution of the Self to me.

There is no distinction unless you create one, of course... I simply made this distinction in order to be able to explain my different modi operandi.

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Original post: tempest

From what I gather, this thread is about distilling magick into it's working essence. How much of this ceremonial stuff is really necessary? How much of it is mere 'fluff?' How are we supposed to know the difference?
When I was first training in martial arts, I didn't know the difference. My teacher was a god and our style was 'the best.' Bruce Lee was a big meanie who was out to spoil the fun of stylists like myself...to make a long story short now I am a Jeet Kune Do student. I want to do what works without the fluff. I wouldn't know what is inefficient or what isn't unless I had experience in the prior art...
I don't know if Magick can be divided from symbolism... I think it is based on symbols... it is one big symbolic representation of your life/you/your problems, etc... as I said before. The grand theatrical ceremonies in the OTO are only one part of Thelema. I went to a gnostic mass, quite honestly it wasn't meant to 'do magickal works' it was a beautiful ceremony and fascinating to watch.
There is practical magick and some 'tradition' of the order, or 'fluff' whatever you call it. DO magick and get results! I don't think starting off reading Crowley is the best place to begin.. maybe Craig & DuQuette?

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Original post: I AM

I want to caution that the symbolism of CM as well as the rituals ARE important and NOT FLUFF.

In martial arts, you must learn to crawl and walk before you can run and it takes years to truly master the art. It is the same in Ceremonial Magick. In fact, it is the same in ALL Magick.

I have stated before in my BH posts (Before Hacking) that Ritual was the vehicle not the destination. However, it is an important vehicle that should not be arbitrarily discarded.

While there are many paths to Magick, the CM path DOES NOT only unlock personal power but also promotes personal growth as well. The methodology of CM assists us in exploring ourselves in a direct way very deeply and allows us to gain control over facets of ourselves that we would be unable to access directly in any other way.

This is difficult for me to put into words but I will try. I liken CM to climbing a ladder. In the first few steps of the ladder we realize we are aware of more and can see more and most of us realize that the ladder is very high. As we progress up the steps of the ladder more of the REAL world becomes known to us and USABLE to us. What was scary and perhaps unsafe we have now mastered and have control over.

However, in my experience, there is no top to the ladder. Our progression up the ladder enables us to experience things that we could not even dream of while on the lower steps of the ladder. The higher we climb the more we realize that the lower steps were unimportant BUT NECESSARY TO GET TO WHERE WE ARE. The higher we climb the more we understand that the Universe is VAST and the wonders of that Universe are without words. We are able to experience what others have to share as well as see the World for what it really is.

There is no end to growth...only new beginnings. There is no top, there is only more. I do not think that any, in one lifetime, can hope to see and learn all that there is to know.

Can we do magick without ritual or methodology? Certainly. Should we? I do not think so. The very methodology of Magick, in ANY PATH, is necessary to fully experience the wonders that await us. There comes a time when the Magickian no longer needs ritual. That is because the Magickian fully understands the methodology and has climbed high enough up the ladder to truly understand the Magick that is being practiced. In a sense the Magick has become the Ritual and its reverse is true as well.

At each step of the ladder As Above, So Below and As Within, So Without is true. AT EACH STEP. And, like any ladder, at each step it is possible to fall.

In order to the Magickian to perceive the WITHOUT at each step the Magickian has to have grown WITHIN to enable this perception. The vibration within has to equal the vibration without before what is there can be perceived. This is true in ALL true Magick but especially true in CM. This single SIMPLE truth is also the most important truth. The Vibration Within has to Equal the Vibration Without in order for perception to occur.

All of these steps are valuable as well as necessary. This has been my experience. How one climbs them are up to the Magickian. However, failure to climb the steps leads to falls. Failure to climb hides the Universe from the Magickian.

Humbly, I AM

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Original post: Benedict Achaniel

This one definately resonates with me, as it's a process I've been using almost exclusively all the time. Having developed a number of responsibilities, it's not longer feasible to spend long times researching obscure pantheons, developing new symbologies and working out correspondence charts. When I need magic(k), I need it NOW, usually for something very basic.

I've learned to recognize the onset of this type of moment. A building of frustration, a heightening of emotion. You've got to get yourself ANGRY that what you want isn't happening. I can build myself into a frenzy of focus, do a bit of strong positive visualization and fire off my intention. After which I promptly think about something else. I've found this method remarkably effective. The entire key is the peak of emotion, and the thinking about something else.

This has translated interestingly in other areas of my magical development. Specifically, divination basically happens as an automatic response. I've spent the last several months wandering around in a world of base-level impressions. Do this, don't do this. And almost invariably when I get the feeling, there turns out later to be a reason for it.

I think Ceremony is useful to train the mind to recognize the subconscious. Once it's power is identified, however, I feel it's quite easy to tap it without any of the BS.

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Original post: Aodh

What bits of it are 'BS' is arguable. Especcially regarding entities such as demons, deities, etc. All I'm gonna say.

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Original post: Frater Manjet

...I will also echo the statements of many on this subject...

...I liken "Magick" to "Musick" so I will say that in musickal theory we learn the rules in order to break them. There are of course individuals of such intuitive genius as to never need to learn the rules in the first place. Jimi Hendrix is a prime example of such genius.

...That being said I will add that the "act" of ceremony to me is quite important to elevating the work above and beyond the mundane.

side note:.. This statement of "Magick and Musick" is the first public hint of my personal sytem. After a recent conversation with I AM on this matter, and many prior requests, I am seriously contemplating publishing on this subject. I have been hesitant to do so as my magickal work has always been very private and personal. It is only that so much interest has been voiced in this matter that I even consider it.

Om A Piap (210/3)

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Original post: hitman777

Another aspect of ritual in CM is that at times it definetly adds STRUCTURE and DIRECTION to your Magick. You'll get to a point where you can generate energy, power, results, etc, without a lot of the ritual. I'm sure that everybody who has been practicing for awhile has experienced this, at least to some degree. Structure and direction are very important. I say this mainly as the stupid kid who kept touching the stove.

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Original post: Hoor-paar-Kraat

Why are so many people so interested in doing away with the magick of magick?

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Original post: Kuroyagi

so called result orientated magic is never very powerful. every ceremonies highest goal must be ceremony itself- whether its self created or copied doesnt matter- one should try to stick to it and practice. it is really helpful to consider every ritual (not only LBRP etc)- and again every "part" or gesture and name etc therein- as the whole, as one action (and in that moment- restrospectively speaking- the ONLY action there is in all creation- so that it could be considered sacrilegious to the highest degree to "impede" or to "load" this act w any other purpose than itself) because to an extent the practice of it is all there is to be learned from it.

its really very difficult to explain but for "theories" sake one could say that it teaches what it means "to act"- and only for the sake of ppl who dont practice it, it could be said that by this utmost self sufficient practice of a ritual a way to a mindset(?) is created that makes one "sth more true or efficient"- some time after starting this practice you will do things that you just couldnt (actually only: DIDNT) do before (eg like silencing someone who has pestered you for years w only ONE stare in a single second and affect him in a way so that he will never bother you again (while still being friends w you): now this example could be also considered as a magical act and could be reached w eg sigil magic- and though no thing is better or worse all cumbersome actions that are not only exclusively themselves could be seen as deviating or dispersing (in most paradigms: dispersing your "will").

now all forms of actions and all forms of being are equally important (or not)- the evryday life in the 2nd paragraph and the ceremony itself in the first are the same. so this relativates all I said above beginning w my claim that "result orientated magic is never very powerful", but "to start" it can be helpful to not consider the ceremonies as having any purpose other than (in) themselves. maybe there only can be result orientated magic- but does life have a purpose? does the universe have a purpose- other than itself? this is the paradigm of the western ceremonial magickian- and its not stupid at all

ps strangely enough I completely understand what I AM is trying to say though I contradicted him- or seemed to do- while I think its the same and only the words are different (a damn funny "argument" when being of another opinion from your opposite btw but in this case I really mean it)

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Original post: I AM

[QUOTE=Kuroyagi]so called result orientated magic is never very powerful. every ceremonies highest goal must be ceremony itself- whether its self created or copied doesnt matter- one should try to stick to it and practice. it is really helpful to consider every ritual (not only LBRP etc)- and again every "part" or gesture and name etc therein- as the whole, as one action (and in that moment- restrospectively speaking- the ONLY action there is in all creation- so that it could be considered sacrilegious to the highest degree to "impede" or to "load" this act w any other purpose than itself) because to an extent the practice of it is all there is to be learned from it.

its really very difficult to explain but for "theories" sake one could say that it teaches what it means "to act"- and only for the sake of ppl who dont practice it, it could be said that by this utmost self sufficient practice of a ritual a way to a mindset(?) is created that makes one "sth more true or efficient"- some time after starting this practice you will do things that you just couldnt (actually only: DIDNT) do before (eg like silencing someone who has pestered you for years w only ONE stare in a single second and affect him in a way so that he will never bother you again (while still being friends w you): now this example could be also considered as a magical act and could be reached w eg sigil magic- and though no thing is better or worse all cumbersome actions that are not only exclusively themselves could be seen as deviating or dispersing (in most paradigms: dispersing your "will").

now all forms of actions and all forms of being are equally important (or not)- the evryday life in the 2nd paragraph and the ceremony itself in the first are the same. so this relativates all I said above beginning w my claim that "result orientated magic is never very powerful", but "to start" it can be helpful to not consider the ceremonies as having any purpose other than (in) themselves. maybe there only can be result orientated magic- but does life have a purpose? does the universe have a purpose- other than itself? this is the paradigm of the western ceremonial magickian- and its not stupid at all

ps strangely enough I completely understand what I AM is trying to say though I contradicted him- or seemed to do- while I think its the same and only the words are different (a damn funny "argument" when being of another opinion from your opposite btw but in this case I really mean it)[/QUOTE]


Frater Manjet and I were having a discussion the other day about what you bring up. Frater reminded me that Aleister Crowley cautioned against "Lusting after the Result" and indicated it took away from the workings.

In truth, the result is NOT the Magick. Meditate on this. Kuroyagi has said it very well...results oriented Magick are not what we should be striving for. The result is not the goal, it is a by-product.

Humbly, I AM