Isn't there any real black magic?

Amavisso
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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

Post by Amavisso »

Desecrated wrote:That's your interpretation of black magic. I was thinking more of the classical 'kill, rape, sacrifice babies"-black magic when I made this thread over 2 years ago.
When that one door opens, you will see >them<, and >they< will do to you just what you wrote. Some people try to control >them<, but it is useless, people can only agree to unconditional surrender of their soul, sometimes people try to push some kind of agreement or pact to gain malefic power. That is the way of Black Magic.

People who make such an agreement become a point of transmission of highly negative energy whirls. Everything around them will perish and die, succumbing to black aura of denizens from Lowers Worlds. The closest relatives of such people die or go insane - parents, children, wives and husbands. Yes, just to break a myth: black magicians are damned to loneliness, they lose everything whom they love. Their entropic aura will scare everything good out of their life.

I know a couple of powerful methods to make agreements with such Spirits and condemn one's own soul for suffering for all eternity, and I am not sure if it is a good idea to share it. Is that what people really want? Don't they want love and be loved, there are so many wonderful things around to enjoy in this world other than gaining power to destroy everything good on one's path :) Also after this life people, who made a pact, will become slaves to some EXTREMELY horrible beings forever, and I think it is a too high price to pay just to be able to have power which can't do any good.

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

Post by Procel »

Desecrated wrote:.......snip.....

That's your interpretation of black magic. I was thinking more of the classical 'kill, rape, sacrifice babies"-black magic when I made this thread over 2 years ago.
What have you learned about this in that time?

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

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Procel wrote:
Desecrated wrote:.......snip.....

That's your interpretation of black magic. I was thinking more of the classical 'kill, rape, sacrifice babies"-black magic when I made this thread over 2 years ago.
What have you learned about this in that time?
It's a christian fantasy that has turned into a conspiracy theory fantasy.
You hear about it all the time but there is no evidence for anybody actually doing that kind of stuff.
NONE of the old books that are reputed to be "black magic" is really that black. Yeah, you might have some animal sacrifice and some necromancy using body parts of dead humans, but nothing really bad.

The worst thing I've come across; are the christians in Africa that kidnaps children and accuse them of being witches so that they can extorting the family for money. They then rub chili-powder in their eyes, force them to starve for days, and then cut them with razors to let the demons out. And while the kids are laying on the floor with cuts in their bellies, the adults will stomp and walk on them to get the demons out.
And they have that on film. You can actually watch it if you want to. But it is probably the closest to really fucking dark magic I've come across.

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

Post by Shawn Blackwolf »

Desecrated , you can ignore this , or take what you want out of it...

You know I have mentioned a symbol set I work with , with the value of 994...

In our old spelling in our language , Witch was spelled Wietch...

Wietch = 281

Yet :

Black = 73

And in our language , Magic , was Mgieck...

Mgieck = 208

So :

Black Mgieck = 281 = Wietch

994 - 281 = 713

Shabbathai = 713

Which in Obri / Hebrew , is the word for Saturn...

So , Black Mgieck was the magic dealing with Saturn , and
all correspondences , such as the devil sitting on the cube ,
( cube representing Saturn ) on the Tarot Card...

Saturn , has also been associated by some with the Black Sun...

Societies of Saturn , have been prominent in association with
darker magical practices...not saying as dark as claimed , yet
more so than many other practices...

This is where lead comes in , as lead is associated with Saturn , as a metal...

Saturn was also associated with the nigredo state in alchemy...

This is what I can offer...is through these associations , came the original idea
which morphed into the mythology we are left with today...

However , I would state my belief any magic , associated with black magic ,
is somehow linked to Saturn , and the Black Sun...

Further research into the SS connection to the Black Sun , might interest you...

Ceremonies at Externsteine , in particular...

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

Post by Desecrated »

Shawn Blackwolf wrote:
In our old spelling in our language
What language?

Further research into the SS connection to the Black Sun , might interest you...
Ceremonies at Externsteine , in particular...
There has no doubt been some evil people involved in different occult societies. But the magic they actually practiced was pretty tame.
Read books like: Goodwin-Clarke’s The Occult Roots of Nazism , Staudenmeier’s Between Occultism and Nazism and Eric Kurlander Hitler’s Monsters: A Supernatural History of the Third Reich.

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

Post by Procel »

There is a certain Occam's razor likelihood to the conclusion.

The comparison has been made (since page one of the thread) between magick and knives or guns. The tool doesn't know or care if it's being used by a hero or a villain. It's not inherently evil. It's got the potential to be used for evil.

I think that the tales of books that bring madness or death to the reader or tales of other such are a combination of tales of really evil practitioners and good old-fashioned hype. Fear is a strong motivator.

So, given a couple years of this, where are you going with this? Usually when someone says they are "just wondering" they are bullshitting themselves. I'm not saying you are searching for the keys to unleashing unlimited suffering, but you are looking for something dark for some reason. Do you have a grasp of where you are going and why you are going there?

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

Post by Desecrated »

Procel wrote:
So, given a couple years of this, where are you going with this? Usually when someone says they are "just wondering" they are bullshitting themselves. I'm not saying you are searching for the keys to unleashing unlimited suffering, but you are looking for something dark for some reason. Do you have a grasp of where you are going and why you are going there?
No, I'm just curious.

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

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Many years ago, I had a friend who shared my interest in Eastern philosophy. We both lived with serious, lifelong clinical depression as well, so we also had that in common, though we were temperamentally different. Through a mutual acquaintaince, she gave me a book by Ernest Becker called "Denial of Death," a book about overcoming the fear of dying and left me a personal note in the front cover telling me that she thought I'd find it useful and interesting, noting the part of the book where she said it "heats up." Then she killed herself.

I've never read the book. Every couple of years I stumble across it again and read the note, and think about reading it. And each time, I've put the book away again. Three or four years ago, during a very dark and difficult time in my life, I brought the book down to the river to decide once and for all to either sit and read it, or throw it into the river unread. While I was smoking my pipe and thinking about it, I struck up a conversation with a man who was fishing nearby, and explained what I was doing there. It turned out that he was a practising Buddhist, ex-military, and also lived with depression. I decided that this had to be synchronicity and asked him what he would do if he was in my shoes. He asked to read the note my friend had left, then thought quietly for a while. He finally said that the note gave him deep misgivings, and that it sounded to him very much like she was inviting me to join her in death, and that in my shoes he would throw the book into the river.

Until I'd spoken to him, I had been leaning in the direction of finally reading the book. With his advice I changed my mind about reading it, but I couldn't bring myself to throw it away, either. The book is now so fraught with complex and conflicting feelings for me that I can't see myself either reading it or throwing it away. It's going to hang over me like the Sword of Damocles, probably until I die.

The reason I described all of this is because I don't think words on a page, in and of themselves, can be good or evil. I don't think words, no matter what the order, can drive someone to madness. But it's quite possible for a book to take on such deep psychological weight that it can bring hysteria, madness, despair, and even death, not through its semantic content alone, but when combined with external circumstances and internal mental, spiritual, and emotional states. Plenty of perfectly ordinary people have read Catcher in the Rye and not become depraved, psychotic, or homicical -- yet it has a bizarre attraction for murderers including John Hinkley Jr., Mark Chapman, and Robert Bardo. It's all about context and not necessarily content.

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

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PoisonPen wrote: Plenty of perfectly ordinary people have read Catcher in the Rye and not become depraved, psychotic, or homicical -- yet it has a bizarre attraction for murderers including John Hinkley Jr., Mark Chapman, and Robert Bardo. It's all about context and not necessarily content.
Pretty sure those people were mentally ill before they read the book.
Obviously there has been a lot of crazy fucking people, doing crazy fucking things, for no good reason whatsoever. Everything from killing over books, movies or videogames. Heck, I knew a guy that was killed over a pair of tennis shoes.

What I'm looking for is something that is so evil that it can actually influence the world around it. Something real, not just fantasies.

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

Post by Procel »

I think Poison Pen shines a light on an interesting possibility. The darkness of this book isn't entirely in the text. The copy of the book, the specific copy given by a woman who was in the process of going down the path of suicide in an effort (maybe) to bring another to death is as likely as anything to bear some residual imprint. It's quite possibly a "cursed" object.

Is "Catcher in the Rye" linked to madness? No, I doubt it. Might Hinkley's personal copy be in some way imprinted by his deeply focussed attention to it? That I'm less sure of and it's a fascinating possibility. I doubt Hinckley had the power in himself to impart any into anything, but maybe an occultist with real power focussing on something over time could do so.

A true, evil black magic book may be out there...but you aren't going to get the real deal from a PDF. It's also possible that what you seek isn't a book but some other object that has been (for lack of a better term) cursed.

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

Post by Desecrated »

Procel wrote:I think Poison Pen shines a light on an interesting possibility. The darkness of this book isn't entirely in the text. The copy of the book, the specific copy given by a woman who was in the process of going down the path of suicide in an effort (maybe) to bring another to death is as likely as anything to bear some residual imprint. It's quite possibly a "cursed" object.

Is "Catcher in the Rye" linked to madness? No, I doubt it. Might Hinkley's personal copy be in some way imprinted by his deeply focussed attention to it? That I'm less sure of and it's a fascinating possibility. I doubt Hinckley had the power in himself to impart any into anything, but maybe an occultist with real power focussing on something over time could do so.

A true, evil black magic book may be out there...but you aren't going to get the real deal from a PDF. It's also possible that what you seek isn't a book but some other object that has been (for lack of a better term) cursed.
I'm mean there is the whole Trithemius: drawing spirits into stuff, and you have some paranormal "experts" talking about physics energy being drawn to an object. But that's kiddy stuff.
That kind a thing is scary on sci-fi channels haunted objects tv-show. Like the evil doll that sometimes look at you. OOoooOOO- I'm after something a bit more serious here.

And not just a book that happens to be scary, but an entire system of magic that is genuinely bad. Not abramelin rights where you dabble a little with demons but the goal is to talk to an angel, or lesser key of solomon where demons are downgraded to goblins running around doing errands for you.
I'm talking about the next level stuff.

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

Post by Procel »

If your premise is that nothing could possibly be real because stupid tv shows did something like that, you may overlook truth under your nose. Likewise your idea of what constitutes "Real Black Magic" may be too limiting. It seems that if it doesn't look like what you think it looks like you are dismissive. Again, your definition may keep you from seeing truth under your nose.

That said, I saw something a while back that I will try to find again. It was a book about some really sinister West African occult practices. I didn't read the book. I saw it, read the liner notes but didn't buy it. It was interesting, but not enough so (to me) to get me to buy. This was a year or two ago. Ill try to find it again. It maybe to your interest. It was some dark and brutal stuff. Death curses, human sacrifice, cannibalism. All the best.

Personally, I'm not convinced that magick is really so different from guns. There have been some purely evil people and some truly heroic people and a whole lot of mundane everyday people who all had guns. The iron doesn't know or care who holds it. It just is. So, maybe the answer to the original question "is there any real Black Magic" may be a big old "maybe" or even a flat "no." Could be that like any other power, it's as good or bad as what you do with it and blaming ones evil deeds on the Black Magic is like blaming ones murders on guns. Then again, like most analogies, one doesn't equal the other. They only approximate each other in a given context.

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

Post by PuraSombra »

MoonMarbas wrote:It stands to reason that there are old secrets hiding within "the space between spaces".

Perhaps, as the OP said, the answer can't be simply found within the pages of a book, or on a website made by people regurgitating the same old theories and ideas that we've been exposed to for far too long.
I believe it's been a long time coming for another to rise to the challenge of exposing themselves to the most dark and forgotten aspects of the occult, the "void" of the astral plane, channeling beings beyond our comprehension of all things to bring a new word to the seething masses of weak minded individuals who restrict themselves with petty bickering and false ideologies of moral compass.

Though one must truly think deeply upon what it means to do something like this, given it is even a real concept.
In order for one to reach beyond what has ever been brought to us before. To reach beyond life and death, the individual has to truly transcend madness and sanity itself. They'd have to be in a pure state of non-existence, absolute nothingness. It requires an individual who is willing to give up all that is, to discover all that is not and has never been, yet observes from the "deep" all the same. And therein lies the issue, how would one come back from something so overwhelming? So terrible and non existent?
The Necronomicon was a work of fiction, although many argue that fact. But what Desecrated is speaking of goes beyond the veil of what our imaginations can even begin to comprehend, Necronomicon included. When he speaks of darkness, he is speaking of something that is so dark, and truly eldritch in nature, that we can't even begin to truly comprehend even the smallest concept of it, lest we die of shock instantly.

This is immediately evident from the hurt sensibilities in response to his blunt statement. And though many have acted stricken with shock at his statement involving the idea of rape and cannibalism being so mundane in nature, we as a society have seen ten times as worse every day in movies and T.V.

The truth is that those who truly are seekers of mystical secrets, true occultists- they understand that it falls to those of us with the will to do so, to test the full limit of human potential. And that means all that comes with it. Compassion, love, depravity, evil. A true occultist sees no difference in any of these expressions and it's our job to constantly be searching, pushing the current perception of what is possible. We must push ourselves to the point of absolute madness trying to understand the ebb and flow of existence, and in this case, non-existence itself.

I guess what I'm driving at is that if it's out there, one of us has to give up existence itself to discover what it truly is, in theory. Or at the very least, be willing to give up everything for it.
I've been lurking forums for a while as I go about my days, but I finally just had to step in and put in my 2 cents. First of all, thank you so much for writing this post. It gives me encouragement in my own journey and means so much to me.

To the OP:
As you have clearly seen in all the replies to your posts, the true darkness you are looking is not ever going to be found in a book or on a forum. As a person facing a similar question years ago, I can just save you the trouble if you wish to hear my words. You won't find what you look for anywhere. The best you can do is read about the LHP and find books in which at least the author seems to have a similar world-view. From there, you need to find a system of practice and a paradigm that has the openness you need to go your own way with it once you get the basics. After that, stick to those basics: energy work, meditation, scrying, etc.

The path of Darkness is one that can not be defined by anyone but you. If your intent is sincere and you are willing to do the work required, the spirits that reside in the Dark will reach out to you as best they can. From there it is up to you to work on yourself so that you can hear what they have to say. I would recommend simply keeping a dream journal and a simple earnest call to a Dark God or Demon that you feel an affinity to every night.

I completely understand how you feel fed up with the Xian mythos having something to do with so much, but it can be useful if you can find a way to use to your advantage. Sounds like you might want to try researching the older gods such as Set and Hades, Odin, etc. What I am trying to say is that you must change your perception if you truly want to see in the Dark. We are not programmed to view such things and it should be apparent in even some of the replies to your OP. Part of the quest for one who seeks the Black Flame is to learn to see by it. I do hope you find what you seek. There are so few willing to take the risks MoonMarbas mentioned, and fewer still who have the necessary characteristics to see it through.

To MoonMarbas:
My only question to you is once people have made that sacrifice and found what they were looking for, do you really think it worth sharing? I mean I am far from mastery of any sort, but I wouldn't want to share even what I have come to realize as truth haphazardly. I think this is one of the built-in safety mechanisms for this path. Even when a Master is realized, the knowledge he has is simply not meant to be shared with everyone or in a public venue. And secondly, anyone who is meant to pioneer a path in the Darkness will find that they can't settle for a path already made by someone else. This to me is the true difference between the LHP and RHP. The only All to come back to is the self now whole and Divine on its own.

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

Post by bathtub-alchemist »

if you're looking for stereotypical "black magick" you're probably going to have to write your own spells. I have a few that I've written and used. One involves a sacrifice of a creature in much torment, then binding it's spirit in a container, harbouring this vengeful angry spirit until such a time that it is released and informed of who is responsible for it's great torment (this requires you to lie, of course). Fury is often quite simple to aim, even in others......... once released the target is harassed by the malevolent spirit.

I like to use stinging insects and venemous spiders and the like......

but you see, you must be creative....

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

Post by Cerber »

bathtub-alchemist wrote:if you're looking for stereotypical "black magick" you're probably going to have to write your own spells. I have a few that I've written and used. One involves a sacrifice of a creature in much torment, then binding it's spirit in a container, harbouring this vengeful angry spirit until such a time that it is released and informed of who is responsible for it's great torment (this requires you to lie, of course). Fury is often quite simple to aim, even in others......... once released the target is harassed by the malevolent spirit.

I like to use stinging insects and venemous spiders and the like......

but you see, you must be creative....
daaam girl, that's dope! lol
Sorry, but in a framework of this discussion, it's probably as dark as it gets. Even though this specific example, in the greater scheme of things, that specific aspect of intentionally hurting the innocent creature for some personal gain, goes against my personal believes and "the code of honour".
But in any case, I think it's a good example. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

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After reading the first and last page I thought I would put in my two cents.

I think that if you want to practice magick of any supernatural nature that you have to create it yourself. Sure you can imitate, and that is probably good to do, but in the end it is up to you to decide what you want the outcome to be. Your imagination is the only limit, so start thinking. Here, Ill help you.

First of all the idea of black magic is obviously beyond simple power- it has to be devastating and destructive because anything less than absolute ruin would not be considered black in the way I see you searching. Now ask yourself, what kind of entity would be most likely to aid you in total random and reckless destruction without cause? Describe this thing and name it, if there is a being that represents this force it will know that you seek it. I believe that most names were given by mortals and not given to mortals, so it is the attributes that define it and not the name. If there is power in knowing somethings name, why would any supernatural god or demon or angel give you theirs?

Remember that you aren't looking for revenge or justice- you want pitch black- and nothing short of absolute random destructive chaos will suffice. Any other reason is reasonable, and belongs to a different idea. There are plenty of Gods, angels, demons etc that will help you get your will or revenge, and who isn't worthy of a kick in the ass? No, you must call on the darkest force imaginable. Do this, swear a blood oath to it, sell your damnable soul to it... give it everything you possess. Tell it to take you and mold you and devour you and teach you to be the destructive force that you want to serve.

I hope you get what you wish.

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

Post by bathtub-alchemist »

Cerber wrote: daaam girl, that's dope! lol
Thanks. I wrote this one almost ten years ago. There are a few personal details I left out but the bare bones are there.....

I try to leave morality out of my practice, but I reflect hard before taking life. I don't often use this one, but when the time is right I do. It's a devastating curse, and probably not for beginners. If "misfired" Im certain death is far from the worst consequence

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

Post by ALIEN »

Regarding the kind of "Oedipus! Pontificus! Illiteratus! Give me a girl that I can kiss!" magic, well I believe is just fantasy and folklore.
But MagicK, is science/psychology seen through more mystical and spiritual eyes (which I fully endorse)


"Black Magic" is fascinating idea, that has a infamous reputation but I don't believe it exists.

Who here actually practices it? What for?
"Some say he was is holy man, others say he is a shithead"

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

Post by Shawn Blackwolf »

ALIEN wrote:Who here actually practices it? What for?
Now we are back to how do *you* define "black magic" ?

Read my previous post , realize I am a *Wietch* ( very specific )

And I practice and work with "black mgieck" , which is the darker mgieck
related to the ancient Cult of the Dead , Black Sun , Saturn , and do note :

Shabbathai , is Hebrew for Saturn...

Yet :

Shabbathai = 713
Black Sun = 713

Research the Black Sun , and you might find "some" reliable information...

Go back to the Bon in Tibet , and the Mon before them...( not Peter Moon's info , yet the real info under his books )

( and 99% of the information on the Bon has been corrupted by modern Buddhism )

We do not believe in , nor live by human morals...we see through different eyes...

Whatever is applicable...not human laws

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Re: Isn't there any real black magic?

Post by Kath »

Erzabet Bathory did some pretty classically graphic dark magick. Although things didn't go that well for her in the end.

I guess most define 'unhealthy' magick as any which involves truly harmful things in it's ritual, or in it's effect (or both).
I think Bathory's murdering of 600-700 people was sociopathic in it's approach to ritual application, but technically it's goal was "restorative"...
I mean what makes magic "black"? does something have to die? or can it just be hateful intent? or selfish intent? or just disregard for the well being of others?
What's the key bit which makes it qualify as 'black'?

Personally, I think i'd categorize it as anything which will have the side effect of giving you "street cred" with a significant number of entities.
I have such a street cred.
but i noticed an interesting thing in the OP's comments... the idea that some thing can be so evil that it has a direct effect on reality...

I would submit that morally depraved magical working is not inherently more "potent". It can be, due to a variety of factors, but it's not necessarily more potent.
I'd argue that the most potent magic types, in terms of real world manifest results, is evolution of the consciousness, and manipulation of the consciousnesses of others. The latter is fairly dark though, admittedly.
But what would a dead cat do, that a mind-%%#@ed physically real avatar of your will couldn't do better?
seriously, graphicly violent harm just for the sake of the 'ooo and ahhh' of it, isn't particularly powerful beyond the psychological masturbation of it.

evil isn't really real. it's just an idea, held by humans, and represents things which they dislike so much that they imagine the universe must dislike it too. As a concept it's wildly egotistical. now, "effectiveness without regard for collateral damage" can be in some instances more potent than "effectiveness with regard for collateral damage"... but often there's no such conflict. You're not going to do something so naughty that the devil comes to congratulate you in person and give you three wishes. That's just not the way of things in this splinter of reality.

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