Invocation/Evocation Questions

[Haelos]

Before I get in to this, I need to let you all know that I have *never* performed an invocation or evocation ritual (other than invoking the names of God).
These rituals sketch the living fuck out of me. (This is the only time you'll see me use such a vulgar word when I'm not quoting someone else.)

Demons scare me, Angels scare me, Seraphim scare me.
And by scared, I don't mean I'm afraid of the entities themselves. I'm afraid of what can (and often likely will) go wrong when performing it.

This is the primary reason I've stayed away from these rituals, nothing more or less. This stems from a very personal experience I had with a demon whose name I do not know. I wasn't afraid of the demon I was interacting with, I was afraid I was making poor and incorrect choices at the time, and allowing myself to succumb to it's subliminal influence.
(to further explain this situation, I would need to go back to a thread I started that I said I would update, and have not, known as Magick and Hallucinogenics. I plan to add the story of this situation to that thread once I can write it properly, conveying all of my thoughts the right way.)


On to the matters at hand.
Lately, I've started moving out of my comfort zone, and out of the "chaos magick paradigm," if you can really call it that, and on to more Ceremonial styles.
I've come to a point where (though I'm a highschool drop out, due to the imposed structure) I need a structured system, and even a dedicated instructor to learn under. Learning from books just isn't cutting it anymore, and though I discredit no one among these forums, I don't believe there are very many among you who have moved past the level of understanding needed to be imparting wisdom (myself included).

I have a few serious questions regarding the invocation and evocation of spiritual entities. I want to make sure I have everything I need in my resevoir of knowledge before I attempt these rituals.

First and foremost, I'd like to ask why it is so necessary to invoke/evoke at certain hours of the day, days of the year, etc., depending on the spirit you're dealing with?
Is it because they simply control the associated days/times/cycles on a physical and metaphysical level, or do the hours themselves have specific power over the entity? WHY is it an invoking is more successful when performed at the right times?

This has been an important question of mine for a long time. I fully understand the reasons why certain tools and garbs are needed, so this is not the question.


I'd also like to know what is possible, spiritually speaking, of contacting these entities? I don't mean that as simple as it sounds...
What can an entity do for me that I cannot do completely on my own, on some way or another? Yeah, that's what I meant.
I seek spiritual growth, if and when I would be to contact these entities, but I don't really know what I would be asking for at this point.
Anything I need on the physical plane, I'm more than capable of obtaining, either by magick or by my own physical action.
I'm not looking for special powers, or to gain wealth or love, or anything so gross and material. I'm just kind of lost as to my next step of progression.
And even "lost" is too incorrect a word here. I'm progressing slower than I would like. I know I can't always lurch ahead in progression as well as I did in my early days of practice, but I feel like I need to do something that I'm not doing, and I don't know what it is yet. Maybe I need to learn something I can't yet comprehend. I don't really know.
I seek everlasting happiness, and it's a very difficult thing to maintain while still being alive.


I'm going to keep this thread open as I gain new information, so I can continue to post my new questions here without making new threads and cluttering up the place. I always have more questions, I just don't have my thoughts aligned to convey them properly. Too many words in there, man.

As a final side note, lately I've been taking a very good piece of advice to heart, (received from one of our dear and fellow forum members), and it was to not think so heavily on what other people will think of me as a person, before I post on forums. I used to have that problem a lot, I'd end up rambling trying to convey a point because I was worried about people perceiving it properly. However, I now choose to post with no revision (save for typos) and I portray ideas as though I've known every one of you my whole life, and like you'll completely understand everything I'm saying. Even though I know that isn't the case. Don't ever think I'm trying to be insulting to you. I'll tell you if I am. I just write as I speak, and I come across kind of arrogant, and probably really annoying, so don't take how I write personally, and don't expect any sugarcoated bs coming from me. I'm a dick, get over it.

As an extra extra little side note and edit, I've noticed I've been posting a lot in these forums, in comparison to some of the older members who are still around. I don't want anyone to take this as though I assume I'm more knowledgeable than anyone, or than I have anything special to offer. I've just come to a realization that the only way I can continue to learn as strongly as I do is to teach as I learn. I try to offer any little tidbits when I can, but please (especially you more advanced, more knowledgeable members) please don't take my arrogance and obnoxious posting to heart. I may very well not know a single thing about what I'm talking about, and I'm more than open to your criticism about such facts, but at the very least, don't try to force your dogma down my throat, and we will have absolutely no issues. Change is the only constant, and I'm willing to push my own into action, but if you're *intentionally* an asshole, I'll be upset with you. I'm arrogant because I have trouble changing that fact, but that doesn't excuse arrogance for the sake of the action and response.

[cyberdemon]

You do know I'm leading a course on demonology in the School, right?
It's not traditional, but it's somewhat scientific in approach, at least. A little Chaotic, but builds off what we've got available to us at the moment. You might find the two lectures posted so far interesting.

First and foremost, I'd like to ask why it is so necessary to invoke/evoke at certain hours of the day, days of the year, etc., depending on the spirit you're dealing with?
Is it because they simply control the associated days/times/cycles on a physical and metaphysical level, or do the hours themselves have specific power over the entity? WHY is it an invoking is more successful when performed at the right times?

Light particles are a direct deterrent towards connectivity between physical and higher planes for manifestation, which is why a majority of "paranormal" events happen during the night.

Remember that time is a substance (ie. not a metaphysical 'fourth' dimension but a physical dimension) to beings of higher perception. The key to connecting with them may thus be in the specific timing, but it's a concept that requires a lot more research before I can give you a definite answer.

I'd also like to know what is possible, spiritually speaking, of contacting these entities? I don't mean that as simple as it sounds...
What can an entity do for me that I cannot do completely on my own, on some way or another? Yeah, that's what I meant.
I seek spiritual growth, if and when I would be to contact these entities, but I don't really know what I would be asking for at this point.
Anything I need on the physical plane, I'm more than capable of obtaining, either by magick or by my own physical action.

Not really, no. Neither physical nor magickal can do anything, but there's no such thing as impossible. There are 8 billion other lives on earth that you can't control. Decisions, events (of any size/duration), and so on. These are what you can influence, at least.

As an extra extra little side note and edit, I've noticed I've been posting a lot in these forums, in comparison to some of the older members who are still around. I don't want anyone to take this as though I assume I'm more knowledgeable than anyone, or than I have anything special to offer. I've just come to a realization that the only way I can continue to learn as strongly as I do is to teach as I learn. I try to offer any little tidbits when I can, but please (especially you more advanced, more knowledgeable members) please don't take my arrogance and obnoxious posting to heart.

We're the "next generation" of demonologists. It's our duty to step beyond the boundaries set by our predecessors. Do what you Will as long as you hurt none.

[Haelos]

You do know I'm leading a course on demonology in the School, right?
It's not traditional, but it's somewhat scientific in approach, at least. A little Chaotic, but builds off what we've got available to us at the moment. You might find the two lectures posted so far interesting.

First and foremost, I'd like to ask why it is so necessary to invoke/evoke at certain hours of the day, days of the year, etc., depending on the spirit you're dealing with?
Is it because they simply control the associated days/times/cycles on a physical and metaphysical level, or do the hours themselves have specific power over the entity? WHY is it an invoking is more successful when performed at the right times?

Light particles are a direct deterrent towards connectivity between physical and higher planes for manifestation, which is why a majority of "paranormal" events happen during the night.

Remember that time is a substance (ie. not a metaphysical 'fourth' dimension but a physical dimension) to beings of higher perception. The key to connecting with them may thus be in the specific timing, but it's a concept that requires a lot more research before I can give you a definite answer.

I'd also like to know what is possible, spiritually speaking, of contacting these entities? I don't mean that as simple as it sounds...
What can an entity do for me that I cannot do completely on my own, on some way or another? Yeah, that's what I meant.
I seek spiritual growth, if and when I would be to contact these entities, but I don't really know what I would be asking for at this point.
Anything I need on the physical plane, I'm more than capable of obtaining, either by magick or by my own physical action.

Not really, no. Neither physical nor magickal can do anything, but there's no such thing as impossible. There are 8 billion other lives on earth that you can't control. Decisions, events (of any size/duration), and so on. These are what you can influence, at least.

As an extra extra little side note and edit, I've noticed I've been posting a lot in these forums, in comparison to some of the older members who are still around. I don't want anyone to take this as though I assume I'm more knowledgeable than anyone, or than I have anything special to offer. I've just come to a realization that the only way I can continue to learn as strongly as I do is to teach as I learn. I try to offer any little tidbits when I can, but please (especially you more advanced, more knowledgeable members) please don't take my arrogance and obnoxious posting to heart.

We're the "next generation" of demonologists. It's our duty to step beyond the boundaries set by our predecessors. Do what you Will as long as you hurt none.

I've been keeping an eye on that course, but I joined the school too late to officially sign up for your class.
Your lessons are one of the primary reasons I'm starting to move out of my shell of protection., but I still feel like I'm not ready to actually perform any of these spells.

Another question I have, that you may be able to answer..
When you evoke/invoke an entity, such as a demon (as in, a particularly negative entity), you attempt to subdue it into your bidding with spells, charms, and the like.
But, by logic, wouldn't that demon be trying to do the same thing to you?
You dragged it from it's depths to do your material biding, and I can only assume that not all entities would be happy with such an occurrence.
I can assume, being spiritual beings and all, that demons and angels have their own powerful reservoir of spells at their disposal.
Is there any validity to that claim, and should I worry about the influence of spells cast by the demons I evoke?

[cyberdemon]

I've been keeping an eye on that course, but I joined the school too late to officially sign up for your class.
Your lessons are one of the primary reasons I'm starting to move out of my shell of protection., but I still feel like I'm not ready to actually perform any of these spells.

Another question I have, that you may be able to answer..
When you evoke/invoke an entity, such as a demon (as in, a particularly negative entity), you attempt to subdue it into your bidding with spells, charms, and the like.
But, by logic, wouldn't that demon be trying to do the same thing to you?
You dragged it from it's depths to do your material biding, and I can only assume that not all entities would be happy with such an occurrence.
I can assume, being spiritual beings and all, that demons and angels have their own powerful reservoir of spells at their disposal.
Is there any validity to that claim, and should I worry about the influence of spells cast by the demons I evoke?

Well, turns out we've a lack of students as well as teachers. Feel free to get yourself involved.

Actually, personally, I do no such thing. I work on a contractual basis.
Incidentally, the first time I ever tried summons I invoked the demon who I still work with. On that occasion, I fell into a deep trance, hearing voices in a language I didn't understand, and I felt all my energy being drained and the only way I could make it stop was to apply the "I can end any & all conversations and contracts at any time of my choosing" clause and poof. It literally went poof.

tl;dr yes - demons have their own influence and you can protect yourself the easy way or the hard way. Mine was the easy way.

[Haelos]

I've been keeping an eye on that course, but I joined the school too late to officially sign up for your class.
Your lessons are one of the primary reasons I'm starting to move out of my shell of protection., but I still feel like I'm not ready to actually perform any of these spells.

Another question I have, that you may be able to answer..
When you evoke/invoke an entity, such as a demon (as in, a particularly negative entity), you attempt to subdue it into your bidding with spells, charms, and the like.
But, by logic, wouldn't that demon be trying to do the same thing to you?
You dragged it from it's depths to do your material biding, and I can only assume that not all entities would be happy with such an occurrence.
I can assume, being spiritual beings and all, that demons and angels have their own powerful reservoir of spells at their disposal.
Is there any validity to that claim, and should I worry about the influence of spells cast by the demons I evoke?

Well, turns out we've a lack of students as well as teachers. Feel free to get yourself involved.

Actually, personally, I do no such thing. I work on a contractual basis.
Incidentally, the first time I ever tried summons I invoked the demon who I still work with. On that occasion, I fell into a deep trance, hearing voices in a language I didn't understand, and I felt all my energy being drained and the only way I could make it stop was to apply the "I can end any & all conversations and contracts at any time of my choosing" clause and poof. It literally went poof.

tl;dr yes - demons have their own influence and you can protect yourself the easy way or the hard way. Mine was the easy way.

Would you be willing to share your personal method of creating your contracts? I'm only knowledgeable about the forceful, ceremonial styles of evocation, and I never really thought a demon would see me as "worthy" to be receiving anything. I guess I have a sort of misconception about demons in general, but I even find it hard to trust people. Especially mages. Demons have more power than any mage I know, so it's just a precaution I'm willing to take. I'm not sure how powerful my will really is.

[Shinichi]

On to the matters at hand.
Lately, I've started moving out of my comfort zone, and out of the "chaos magick paradigm," if you can really call it that, and on to more Ceremonial styles.
I've come to a point where (though I'm a highschool drop out, due to the imposed structure) I need a structured system, and even a dedicated instructor to learn under. Learning from books just isn't cutting it anymore, and though I discredit no one among these forums, I don't believe there are very many among you who have moved past the level of understanding needed to be imparting wisdom (myself included).

You can check out The Divine Science school. I was a student there for a while and learned a lot. I only left because I found another path that is a bit more natural for me, but if you have an interest in Greek Theurgy and a classical Mystery School In The Modern Age learning structure sort of thing, you might like them. They have a very thorough initiation system set up that will give you several years of training before you ever even start to learn Evocation and Invocation. They are...very, very Old School, and very East Meets West.

First and foremost, I'd like to ask why it is so necessary to invoke/evoke at certain hours of the day, days of the year, etc., depending on the spirit you're dealing with?
Is it because they simply control the associated days/times/cycles on a physical and metaphysical level, or do the hours themselves have specific power over the entity? WHY is it an invoking is more successful when performed at the right times?

It's because of how Astrology works, and because of the Chaldean Cosmology that all of this came from. The Elemental Forces exist naturally here in the Earth Sphere, and thus you can work primarily with them alone. They are often considered the "fundamental" forces for a reason. Beyond this, the Planetary Rays rain down upon the Earth, through the lens of the Elements. This is why each Planet has an Elemental association. Then the Stars, being furthest away, must pass through both the Planetary Rays and the Elements before reaching our microcosm, and this is why such forces as the Zodiac have both a Planetary and Elementary association.

And because these forces are all always in motion, every living entity that is influenced by all these forces possess some dominant feature of these forces. The Elemental Tempers, for example, which explains that every person who hasn't gone through training to achieve Elemental Equipoise via Initiation is ruled by one Element, which influences their character and everything else. Or how you can read a persons Charts and prescribed Fate based on the positions of the planets and stars at their precise time of birth. All of those energies mixing in certain ways have certain influences on every uninitiated person and entity in the world.

Naturally, this means that most complex spirits possess certain cosmic associations as well, and since there are hours and days which are also dominated by these forces, you can create a much more potent Invocation or Evocation simply by timing everything right so that all of these energies are synchronized.

It's all very simple, you see. But it's not necessary. A skilled magician can simply draw a line triangle on the floor, charge the inside of that triangle with the energies native to the spirit being evoked (Earth for a Gnome, for example) in order to create a natural environment, and then simply invite the spirit into the triangle. All the Astrology details, the god names and formulae, and everything else is only necessary for someone who does not know how to do this, or who wants an even more potent and easy experience.

What can an entity do for me that I cannot do completely on my own, on some way or another? Yeah, that's what I meant.

Spirits know things that you don't. You can ask them questions, learn about how Magick works from them, learn all the little details that aren't written in any book anywhere, learn the geography of the spirit world, and tons of other things. You can learn what most people call The Mysteries, not from any mortal teacher, but from the Spirits and Gods directly. You can experience these things, rather than hear or read about them. You can walk through the Towers of The Four Corners, and all the Mysteries of Earth will be at your feet. Ascend through The Planetary Rays, and the Mysteries of The Stars will be in your reach. And that is only the start.

If all you want to do is grow spiritually, go learn Kriya Yoga or something and do that all day. But if you want to learn and practice real Magick, then you are going to work with spirits at some point, either via Journeying through their realms or by inviting them into yours. Ideally both, and in that order.

I seek everlasting happiness, and it's a very difficult thing to maintain while still being alive.

Bliss being difficult to maintain in the mortal realms is a myth propagated by sad and miserable people who have yet to find their own Bliss. Do not let other people's misery degrade your own happiness. Instead, be the Star that brightens their life and demonstrates genuine Happiness, so that you may inspire someone to follow after you and find their own Peace.



~:Shin:~

[Haelos]

You can check out The Divine Science school. I was a student there for a while and learned a lot. I only left because I found another path that is a bit more natural for me, but if you have an interest in Greek Theurgy and a classical Mystery School In The Modern Age learning structure sort of thing, you might like them. They have a very thorough initiation system set up that will give you several years of training before you ever even start to learn Evocation and Invocation. They are...very, very Old School, and very East Meets West.

That site seems like the place I needed to get into three years ago when I fell along this path. I feel like I might be unlearning some of the things that work well for me taking up those classes. Do you know of any particular links for classes dedicated specifically for the self-initiated? I spend every day practicing my basics as it is, so I'd prefer against another 4 years of ONLY basic practice and learning.

It's because of how Astrology works, and because of the Chaldean Cosmology that all of this came from. The Elemental Forces exist naturally here in the Earth Sphere, and thus you can work primarily with them alone. They are often considered the "fundamental" forces for a reason. Beyond this, the Planetary Rays rain down upon the Earth, through the lens of the Elements. This is why each Planet has an Elemental association. Then the Stars, being furthest away, must pass through both the Planetary Rays and the Elements before reaching our microcosm, and this is why such forces as the Zodiac have both a Planetary and Elementary association.

And because these forces are all always in motion, every living entity that is influenced by all these forces possess some dominant feature of these forces. The Elemental Tempers, for example, which explains that every person who hasn't gone through training to achieve Elemental Equipoise via Initiation is ruled by one Element, which influences their character and everything else. Or how you can read a persons Charts and prescribed Fate based on the positions of the planets and stars at their precise time of birth. All of those energies mixing in certain ways have certain influences on every uninitiated person and entity in the world.

Naturally, this means that most complex spirits possess certain cosmic associations as well, and since there are hours and days which are also dominated by these forces, you can create a much more potent Invocation or Evocation simply by timing everything right so that all of these energies are synchronized.

It's all very simple, you see. But it's not necessary. A skilled magician can simply draw a line triangle on the floor, charge the inside of that triangle with the energies native to the spirit being evoked (Earth for a Gnome, for example) in order to create a natural environment, and then simply invite the spirit into the triangle. All the Astrology details, the god names and formulae, and everything else is only necessary for someone who does not know how to do this, or who wants an even more potent and easy experience.

This explains away half of my question, but why it is a particular spirit has stronger influences over it, especially the higher beings? I can fully understand humans being influenced by the higher powers, but aren't the entities we're contacting the beings who keep these powers working, and in check?
A question that could go along with this (you may or may not have an answer) is;
What about if we go to a different planet (in theory, of course)? Would the influences be completely different in comparison to our own planet, or relatively similar? And also, what about the planets in other solar systems? are we only notably effected by our own planetary bodies? (sorry, this is falling in lines more of Astrology now.)

Spirits know things that you don't. You can ask them questions, learn about how Magick works from them, learn all the little details that aren't written in any book anywhere, learn the geography of the spirit world, and tons of other things. You can learn what most people call The Mysteries, not from any mortal teacher, but from the Spirits and Gods directly. You can experience these things, rather than hear or read about them. You can walk through the Towers of The Four Corners, and all the Mysteries of Earth will be at your feet. Ascend through The Planetary Rays, and the Mysteries of The Stars will be in your reach. And that is only the start.

If all you want to do is grow spiritually, go learn Kriya Yoga or something and do that all day. But if you want to learn and practice real Magick, then you are going to work with spirits at some point, either via Journeying through their realms or by inviting them into yours. Ideally both, and in that order.

I think you and I have two totally different ideas of what spirituality is.
I don't know much about Kriya Yoga in particular, but the energy work of yoga is only the small physical half of it, to me. You can't gain ultimate understanding and wisdom by meditating all day in funny-ass postures, and you definitely won't dissolve into oneness with the All. There has to be some type of actual information input, or else nothing is happening. Reaching gnosis is partially pointless if you don't learn to do something with it, anything.



I always love when a thread gets a new post from you, Shinichi, because I always know I'm going to be both challenged and intrigued.

[Shinichi]

That site seems like the place I needed to get into three years ago when I fell along this path. I feel like I might be unlearning some of the things that work well for me taking up those classes. Do you know of any particular links for classes dedicated specifically for the self-initiated? I spend every day practicing my basics as it is, so I'd prefer against another 4 years of ONLY basic practice and learning.

Unlearning some things to learn better things is not bad. I've started over several times over the years and I'm a better whatever I am for it.

Their Probationer class is free and they'll probably be doing one soon, so if you want to find out through experience what you might be facing with them, that's a good class to take. The Olympus Meditations are still the most powerful spiritual exercises that I have ever done.

And no, I don't know of any classes for the self-initiated, because the whole point of self-initiation is the fact that there were no classes.

This explains away half of my question, but why it is a particular spirit has stronger influences over it, especially the higher beings? I can fully understand humans being influenced by the higher powers, but aren't the entities we're contacting the beings who keep these powers working, and in check?

It's not that the spirit has a stronger influence over it, it's that it has a stronger influence over the spirit. Even the gods are still ruled by Fate.

There's also the matter that some of those "higher beings" are the higher powers that you are working with. When you invoke the deity Mars, you are invoking the consciousness of the planet Mars and everything that comes with that.

A question that could go along with this (you may or may not have an answer) is;
What about if we go to a different planet (in theory, of course)? Would the influences be completely different in comparison to our own planet, or relatively similar? And also, what about the planets in other solar systems? are we only notably effected by our own planetary bodies? (sorry, this is falling in lines more of Astrology now.)

It's completely different. Every solar system is metaphysically different as is every celestial body within it. It's like going to all the different states in America and then visiting India or China. Everywhere you go in the universe is to some degree or another different, with its own local stuff going on.

And yes, according to the basic principles of Astrology and Astral Magick, we are very much influenced by the rays of our own planets.

I think you and I have two totally different ideas of what spirituality is.

Not as much as you might think.

I don't know much about Kriya Yoga in particular, but the energy work of yoga is only the small physical half of it, to me. You can't gain ultimate understanding and wisdom by meditating all day in funny-ass postures, and you definitely won't dissolve into oneness with the All. There has to be some type of actual information input, or else nothing is happening. Reaching gnosis is partially pointless if you don't learn to do something with it, anything.

Ah, but you're wrong. [lol]

There are many ways to reach Self-Realization, and to understand this you have to understand what Self-Realization is. That's a whole 'nother topic, though.

Kriya Yoga is an energy working exercise that speeds up your spiritual evolution by circulating energy through your body and soul in a specific orbit. It is taught by the Ancient Yogi Sages that everyone will reach Self-Realization through natural evolution after about one million years of reincarnating, being exposed to sunlight and burning off karmas and all that. Spiritual practice just speeds this up. And of all the spiritual exercises in India, it is said that Kriya is the most potent because one complete “Kriya breath” is equivalent to one year of normal human spiritual evolution. 200 kriya takes about an hour and a half, thus in that short amount of time the Yogi accomplishes 200 years of human evolution. At that pace, in a little over 13 years the Yogi will accomplish one million years of normal human spiritual evolution and you will reach Self-Realization. Just by breathing a certain way every day.

So you see, if Self-Realization is all you want, then you don't have to practice Magick at all. The Mysteries are irrelevant to you, a distraction. You don't have to deal with spirits in any way, ever. You can do Kriya, or some of the spiritual Qigong traditions, or lots of other stuff. No "information input" is necessary, what's necessary is the development of your Consciousness. If you are not meditating to develop your consciousness, then no matter how much information you cultivate, you will never reach Gnosis.

As for what to do with Gnosis when you get there, well. The Yogi's have an entire list of the different levels of Samadhi. Gnosis is just the start, whether you use Magick or just Mysticism to get there.



~:Shin:~

[Haelos]

Unlearning some things to learn better things is not bad. I've started over several times over the years and I'm a better whatever I am for it.

Their Probationer class is free and they'll probably be doing one soon, so if you want to find out through experience what you might be facing with them, that's a good class to take. The Olympus Meditations are still the most powerful spiritual exercises that I have ever done.

And no, I don't know of any classes for the self-initiated, because the whole point of self-initiation is the fact that there were no classes.

The reason I'm "self-initiated" is only because I've never known a master to learn from, and I fell onto the path myself over time and with experience. Had I been raised by someone whom was on the path, or in culture that were otherwise acceptable of such, I would have been initiated, and much younger than I was at my start. I've been in an unlucky situation to only have the internet at my disposal, and barely even another human being I can talk to about my experiences.

I may look into that course, but my schedule is pretty chaotic lately. Are they flexible to the times in which you are able to progress?

Ah, but you're wrong. [lol]

There are many ways to reach Self-Realization, and to understand this you have to understand what Self-Realization is. That's a whole 'nother topic, though.

Kriya Yoga is an energy working exercise that speeds up your spiritual evolution by circulating energy through your body and soul in a specific orbit. It is taught by the Ancient Yogi Sages that everyone will reach Self-Realization through natural evolution after about one million years of reincarnating, being exposed to sunlight and burning off karmas and all that. Spiritual practice just speeds this up. And of all the spiritual exercises in India, it is said that Kriya is the most potent because one complete “Kriya breath” is equivalent to one year of normal human spiritual evolution. 200 kriya takes about an hour and a half, thus in that short amount of time the Yogi accomplishes 200 years of human evolution. At that pace, in a little over 13 years the Yogi will accomplish one million years of normal human spiritual evolution and you will reach Self-Realization. Just by breathing a certain way every day.

So you see, if Self-Realization is all you want, then you don't have to practice Magick at all. The Mysteries are irrelevant to you, a distraction. You don't have to deal with spirits in any way, ever. You can do Kriya, or some of the spiritual Qigong traditions, or lots of other stuff. No "information input" is necessary, what's necessary is the development of your Consciousness. If you are not meditating to develop your consciousness, then no matter how much information you cultivate, you will never reach Gnosis.

As for what to do with Gnosis when you get there, well. The Yogi's have an entire list of the different levels of Samadhi. Gnosis is just the start, whether you use Magick or just Mysticism to get there.

That sounds like it might be something worth learning and knowing. I've never done a significant amount of research on the theory of Eastern practices, so there's probably a lot I don't know about some general things.
And as I see magick, it's any intentional action, so it's pretty impossible not to perform it. High magicks, yes, are somewhat unnecessary (especially for material gains), but when it comes to spiritual growth, I've read that the spirits are one of the the best ways to go.

[Shinichi]

Are they flexible to the times in which you are able to progress?

The Probationer Class itself lasts several weeks. There is one lecture per week and one Q&A Chat session per lecture, where as many people in the class as possible get online at the same time with the teacher for that class, to ask questions and get very deep answers. There's also several practices given, but not one per week. You only need about half an hour to an hour a day of practice in the beginning (many senior students practice over four hours a day - not because they have to, mind you, but because they can after growing that far and want to in order to grow further and faster). After the class is finished and all of the exercises are received, you have several months to practice and study in order to prepare yourself for the next class, and the whole school is pretty much like that. You learn an exercise and various bits of theory, you practice and study to build a foundation, and then you build upon that foundation with the next level of training as you progress through your initiation.

Like how Bardon does things, step-by-step, except you're in a school environment building teacher-student and peer relationships with tons more theory explanations than Bardon's work. It's actually a pretty awesome thing they have going, led by people who have dedicated their lives and souls to The Great Work, and I only left it because I eventually found it to be a little different from what I personally needed in order to grow further.

And as I see magick, it's any intentional action, so it's pretty impossible not to perform it. High magicks, yes, are somewhat unnecessary (especially for material gains), but when it comes to spiritual growth, I've read that the spirits are one of the the best ways to go.

Magick is more about external action, though. Working with external spirits, ascending through the external realms of the Otherworld (whether you use the Kabbalah, Yggdrasil, the Planets, or whatever else as your "map"), intentionally developing Magical Faculties (abilities) and other such things to influence the external world physically or metaphysically. Mysticism is about internal action, about developing consciousness and overcoming the chains of fate and the wheel of reincarnation, and if any special abilities arise from that pursuit then happy-day - but siddhis are never pursued intentionally in traditional Yoga.

Magick is about mastering the world, while Mysticism is about transcending it. There is a huge difference here, even though both, ultimately, reach the same goals of Self-Realization and the other things that are beyond that. The methods of getting there are just sometimes very different.

There's no reason you can't do both at the same time, though, and there are a lot of things laying around that do both simultaneously. Crowley attempted to do it. Bardon did it. TDS is doing it. I'm doing it in my own ways. Still, the distinction between mastering and transcending the world is one I find to be very important, because they are very different philosophical and spiritual pursuits.



~:Shin:~

[Haelos]

The Probationer Class itself lasts several weeks. There is one lecture per week and one Q&A Chat session per lecture, where as many people in the class as possible get online at the same time with the teacher for that class, to ask questions and get very deep answers. There's also several practices given, but not one per week. You only need about half an hour to an hour a day of practice in the beginning (many senior students practice over four hours a day - not because they have to, mind you, but because they can after growing that far and want to in order to grow further and faster). After the class is finished and all of the exercises are received, you have several months to practice and study in order to prepare yourself for the next class, and the whole school is pretty much like that. You learn an exercise and various bits of theory, you practice and study to build a foundation, and then you build upon that foundation with the next level of training as you progress through your initiation.

Like how Bardon does things, step-by-step, except you're in a school environment building teacher-student and peer relationships with tons more theory explanations than Bardon's work. It's actually a pretty awesome thing they have going, led by people who have dedicated their lives and souls to The Great Work, and I only left it because I eventually found it to be a little different from what I personally needed in order to grow further.

That sounds really easy to fit into a schedule, so depending on how things look for the next couple months, I'll probably be looking into signing up.

Magick is more about external action, though. Working with external spirits, ascending through the external realms of the Otherworld (whether you use the Kabbalah, Yggdrasil, the Planets, or whatever else as your "map"), intentionally developing Magical Faculties (abilities) and other such things to influence the external world physically or metaphysically. Mysticism is about internal action, about developing consciousness and overcoming the chains of fate and the wheel of reincarnation, and if any special abilities arise from that pursuit then happy-day - but siddhis are never pursued intentionally in traditional Yoga.

Magick is about mastering the world, while Mysticism is about transcending it. There is a huge difference here, even though both, ultimately, reach the same goals of Self-Realization and the other things that are beyond that. The methods of getting there are just sometimes very different.

There's no reason you can't do both at the same time, though, and there are a lot of things laying around that do both simultaneously. Crowley attempted to do it. Bardon did it. TDS is doing it. I'm doing it in my own ways. Still, the distinction between mastering and transcending the world is one I find to be very important, because they are very different philosophical and spiritual pursuits.



~:Shin:~

I guess this is an important distinction, that I never really bothered to make. I mix various styles of Eastern and Western practices (I started with Eastern, because of my fascination of Japanese culture) so I've always classified them (and assumed others did as well) together as magick. Asia seems to lean a lot heavier towards *Mysticism* then, and Africa/Ancient Europe was more focused on *magick* (although obviously not totally, in either cultures.)
I have that right?


I have one final question that either of you (and preferably both) can answer, if willing.
What is the key difference between a ritual of invocation, and one of evocation?
Is it simply the intent given in the prayer? I have a hard time believing I can keep Gnosis for the full ritual I'm planning out, so which point would be the best to deliver the full amount of intent possible? (It's likely going to be a battle between holding meditation and performing the acts of the ritual. Meditation without the motionlessness.)
Can you give me a good example, for instance using Mars, of one ritual of evocation, and one of invocation?
'
I'm actually going a lot off of instinct, I think.. There seems to be a lot I don't know, but I feel like I've researched enough.. I don't know, I have a lot rolling through my mind right now as I type, and over the last few days in general, trying to get all of my shit situated. Not to mention life is freaking chaotic as all hell (for me and almost everyone I know). And when I center myself, I completely lose track of everything I was saying, and was about to say, so... Yeah.
I've spent endless hours of thought on something I don't even plan on doing for another half a year, *at least*.

EDIT: I re-read this a few times, so let me amend this.
I understand the *difference* between an entity being invoked, and evoked. This answer is to the physical process itself.
As I've said, I've invoked the names of God on many occasions, among a few others (which often leads me to needing a banishing, due to it being on accident).
I understand that I'm telling them to come live in my meat. How do I draw the distinction in making an entity evoked? Also, is it simply by the use of a triangle outside of your circle? You can call entities within a circle easily, so is the triangle the key difference in keeping them out, and is it needed for them to even be evoked at all?

Sorry, I know my question are getting progressively more noobish souding. I'm only asking them to either confirm or deny what my *instincts* seem to be telling me. I use that word kind of loosely here, because I've actually done a lot of research on a lot of subjects, but there's so much in there, and I've had so many life-changing, drug induced epiphanies where all of my dots connected, that I'm having a hard time getting back to basics with everything I know.
All of it is so inter-connected, I don't understand why anyone would want to transcend reality without first attempting to master it.
I also don't like the term "master", because it implies gaining dominance over it, but I don't see that as the case. I use the word to mean the idea of understanding it to the furthest degree, and standing in the same foothold as reality itself. So, damn.. I guess there is some implication of dominance in that, but I hate it to sound as egotistic as it does.

[Shinichi]

I have that right?

Close enough.

What is the key difference between a ritual of invocation, and one of evocation?

I'm pretty sure you already know the definitive difference. The effects are also different. Invocation influences your consciousness and soul from the inside out, Evocation influences your consciousness and soul from the outside in. Invocation can be done somewhat internally and meditatively, depending on the work that you are doing, but Evocation requires an external ritual setup and process because you are inviting an external entity into your domain.

Once you are adept at invoking a particular force, you can also do it anywhere, such as the case of helping you out during Occult Swordplay. No time for ritual when a sword is coming at your head. Evoking like that can also be done, but for most it takes more skill, and it takes a very strong relationship with the spirit you are evoking. For most of us, a full evocation done on the spot with no ritual is a lot more impressive than an invocation done the same way.

Is it simply the intent given in the prayer?

That's part of it, for that sort of ritual.

I have a hard time believing I can keep Gnosis for the full ritual I'm planning out, so which point would be the best to deliver the full amount of intent possible? (It's likely going to be a battle between holding meditation and performing the acts of the ritual. Meditation without the motionlessness.)

If this is the case, then I highly advise you to simply not practice this sort of work until you can keep Gnosis for the full ritual. This is important to receiving maximum benefits and to having maximum respect from and protection against the spirits you work with. That's why Bardon says to only do it after Step 8, where his students achieve Gnosis through the Elemental Equipoise.

Can you give me a good example, for instance using Mars, of one ritual of evocation, and one of invocation?

As a general rule of thumb, you never evoke a higher entity and you never invoke a lower one, for pretty specific reasons that I don't have a lot of time to explain right now. I have never evoked a deity and I probably never will.

Mars the deity should only be Invoked, so that his consciousness can influence yours, help you grow used to his specific energies and wisdom. For Evocation, you should focus on the nature spirits that live there, which you can introduce yourself to by traveling there via Projection and ask if they will let you Evoke them. i think Bardon's second book has some stuff on Martian Spirits.

How do I draw the distinction in making an entity evoked?

Invocation is inviting the being inside you. Evocation is inviting the being over for dinner. I know this probably isn't what you expected, and that you already know that, but it really is that simple.

Also, is it simply by the use of a triangle outside of your circle? You can call entities within a circle easily, so is the triangle the key difference in keeping them out, and is it needed for them to even be evoked at all?

The circle is a closed microcosm meant to protect the summoner. If it's set up right, the evoked spirit will not be able to cross over the circle to get you, though your auras will interact and the presence of the spirit will have an evolutionary effect on you in addition to imparting knowledge for the questions that you ask. The triangle is used to set up a closed environment that is native to the spirit. If you are summoning a Gnome, for example, you charge the triangle with Earth energy so that, to the Gnome, the inside of that triangle feels no different than his home. If you do this correctly, you are not really imprisoning the spirit as much as you are simply making him so comfortable that he doesn't want to leave the triangle...just like you wouldn't want to leave the AC when it's 120F outside.

All of it is so inter-connected, I don't understand why anyone would want to transcend reality without first attempting to master it.

The same reason so many Sages leave society and go to live in a cave. They don't like it here. A lot of them simply can't handle it here. So, they leave as fast as they can.

I guess there is some implication of dominance in that, but I hate it to sound as egotistic as it does.

Is it egotistical for a man who has practiced Martial Arts every day for 60 years to call himself a Master of his skills? Is it egotistical to call someone like Tolkien a Master of creative writing, or someone like Mozart a Master Composer?

Master is a word implying dominance over something, yes. But the only ego there is the ego that you put into it.



~:Shin:~

[ultimafool]

Just wanted to say that reading this thread has been really fun. Thanks Haelos and Shinichi - you two's too cool!

[Candy Ray]

A couple of weeks ago I evoked a demon by mistake,when I didn't intend to. I wrote about it in a blog on my other forum, but we don't have blogs here, do we?
At the time I was afraid the demon would be angry because I didn't want to ask him for anything or make any contracts, but afterwards when the atmosphere returned to normal I thought the opposite- that he would have been angry if I HAD wanted to do something like that.

All I did was use part of someone else's wording, and it was only supposed to be the opening section of the ceremony. He admitted afterwards that he made it too strong. There was no use of planetary symbolism or times and dates or anything as he is a chaos magician, so it looks like you don't need them.

[Shinichi]

but afterwards when the atmosphere returned to normal I thought the opposite- that he would have been angry if I HAD wanted to do something like that.

A lot of occultists don't think of this because they believe demons to be evil, not really objectively sentient beings or just don't care about their feelings, but....

Would you be happy if someone you didn't know intentionally, forcefully ripped you out of your home and bossed you around?



~:Shin:~

[cyberdemon]

A couple of weeks ago I evoked a demon by mistake,when I didn't intend to. I wrote about it in a blog on my other forum, but we don't have blogs here, do we?
At the time I was afraid the demon would be angry because I didn't want to ask him for anything or make any contracts, but afterwards when the atmosphere returned to normal I thought the opposite- that he would have been angry if I HAD wanted to do something like that.

All I did was use part of someone else's wording, and it was only supposed to be the opening section of the ceremony. He admitted afterwards that he made it too strong. There was no use of planetary symbolism or times and dates or anything as he is a chaos magician, so it looks like you don't need them.

What did you do?
Can I have a look?

[FreedomFight]

A skilled magician can simply draw a line triangle on the floor, charge the inside of that triangle with the energies native to the spirit being evoked (Earth for a Gnome, for example) in order to create a natural environment, and then simply invite the spirit into the triangle.

How do you charge a triangle with specific energies of Earth or Jupiter for example? The only triangle-charging I know is the drawing of power names around it, is that what you mean?

[Shinichi]

A skilled magician can simply draw a line triangle on the floor, charge the inside of that triangle with the energies native to the spirit being evoked (Earth for a Gnome, for example) in order to create a natural environment, and then simply invite the spirit into the triangle.

How do you charge a triangle with specific energies of Earth or Jupiter for example? The only triangle-charging I know is the drawing of power names around it, is that what you mean?

Using Formulas and Power Symbols is one way, but that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about directly manipulating the energies with your volition and soul, the same way you would control your Life Force/Chi/Prana energy. Franz Bardon's Initiation Into Hermetics explains how to do this with the Elements, which is in classical Hermetics a prerequisite for the Planetary work anyway. Bardon doesn't talk about ascending through the Planets until Step 9 or so if memory serves.



~:Shin:~

[Haelos]

A skilled magician can simply draw a line triangle on the floor, charge the inside of that triangle with the energies native to the spirit being evoked (Earth for a Gnome, for example) in order to create a natural environment, and then simply invite the spirit into the triangle.

How do you charge a triangle with specific energies of Earth or Jupiter for example? The only triangle-charging I know is the drawing of power names around it, is that what you mean?

Using Formulas and Power Symbols is one way, but that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about directly manipulating the energies with your volition and soul, the same way you would control your Life Force/Chi/Prana energy. Franz Bardon's Initiation Into Hermetics explains how to do this with the Elements, which is in classical Hermetics a prerequisite for the Planetary work anyway. Bardon doesn't talk about ascending through the Planets until Step 9 or so if memory serves.



~:Shin:~

I had planned to use both in my ritual, although I knew that you were referring to what Bardon teaches.
I have a pretty complicated array designed that should be able to work well in any evocation. Using symbols and words of power (IMO) just helps to get your mind where it needs to be for the work, although I'm sure certain formulas could help even a non-initiate.

Is it egotistical for a man who has practiced Martial Arts every day for 60 years to call himself a Master of his skills? Is it egotistical to call someone like Tolkien a Master of creative writing, or someone like Mozart a Master Composer?

Master is a word implying dominance over something, yes. But the only ego there is the ego that you put into it.

I have to say, Only if he doesn't pass his skills on, No, and No, because they don't claim it themselves.
I feel like a master is one who is *required* to pass on their skills to a pupil, and it's also not a title you can assign to yourself.


I'm glad our conversation is helping to enlighten others' here. I'm really just trying to get a firm grasp on my own thoughts before I set out on my task. I'd like to design my ritual to be powerful enough when used the first time. If anyone else has any questions on the subject, please don't be afraid to ask. Shinichi and Cyberdemon are both quite knowledgeable on this topic subject, and I can even answer a few questions, or at least offer opinions.
I'm just happy to assist others in progressing as I do.

[Lumpino]

Before I get in to this, I need to let you all know that I have *never* performed an invocation or evocation ritual (other than invoking the names of God).
These rituals sketch the living fuck out of me. (This is the only time you'll see me use such a vulgar word when I'm not quoting someone else.)

Demons scare me, Angels scare me, Seraphim scare me.
And by scared, I don't mean I'm afraid of the entities themselves. I'm afraid of what can (and often likely will) go wrong when performing it.

I tried evocations several times. It can be dangerous, but it depends on the approach. The most dangerous by my opinion are evocations by medieval Witcher books - grimoires. Interesting results brings meditations about a name a lower pagan god or goddess. And the result will accelerate when you use sleep, like it done in ancient Greece or Egypt, see translantions magical papyri (many of them are free on the net).

[Rin]

Light particles are a direct deterrent towards connectivity between physical and higher planes for manifestation, which is why a majority of "paranormal" events happen during the night.

Where did you get this from?

[Haelos]

Once you are adept at invoking a particular force, you can also do it anywhere, such as the case of helping you out during Occult Swordplay. No time for ritual when a sword is coming at your head. Evoking like that can also be done, but for most it takes more skill, and it takes a very strong relationship with the spirit you are evoking. For most of us, a full evocation done on the spot with no ritual is a lot more impressive than an invocation done the same way.

I'd like to make a comment on this and say that an adept enough swordsman and mage could probably conduct a ritual of evocation in which they use their opponent as either a medium or a means of sacrifice, among other different ways of doing it. The actual movements of the blade could be used in drawing sigils, and the like. There are so many ways you could incorporate ritual into battle, it's crazy. This is another reason I'd like to formally take up some type of Martial Art whose primary focus is energy work. It'll teach me to better use my extensions and energy as both a means of defense and subduing.

I was actually in a Karate class when I was quite young, and only had progressed to my second belt (meaning I *only* knew basic technique of a few moves), but I was kicked out for beating up a bully shortly after joining the class. I was telling my little kid friends I was in Karate class, and some kid decided he wanted to test my moves out for himself. (Not even using a *single thing* I learned in class) I accidentally broke the kids nose, leading to a suspension from school and kicked out of the Dojo. As I was being kicked out, my Sensie congratulated me for holding back, and assigned my (Orange or Yellow, I think) belt in the hallway outside, while the rest of the class got theirs inside. I was about 5-7 when this all happened. The memory is a bit blurry.
I've never been in Martial Arts since.

My point during the first part is, if (let's use the random example of a Samurai for instance) knew he was going into battle, in theory, he could create a ritual plan ahead of time and memorize it (even without a connection to the spirit he's evoking) in which the ritual itself is combat. Then, as he's in the midst of battle, he uses sword movements (and energy directing), prayer, and even the colors of his enemies or blood of their corpses to connect him to the divine presence he wishes to interact with. *Potentially* calling the spirit itself to partake in the combat.
I would imagine a ritual conducted in such a format would have an extremely powerful effect, considering all of the lifeforce in the immediate area going into it, all the bloodshed and death, etc.

What are your views on this?

[Shinichi]

It doesn't sound like you've spent a lot of time on the street or any on a battlefield.

Yes, you can create all sorts of rituals and spells that will allow you to work all sorts of magick with a sword, and there is even spellcraft that you can do with guns for modern day military arts. You can draw sigils, runes and power symbols in the air. You can use incantation. You can use gestures, which by their very nature are meant to serve as triggers and aids for more complex magick.

But in live combat, you very rarely have time to do all of that.

There is a reason why Warrior Sages and Heroes like the Templars, Berserkers and those few Warrior Yogis of ancient India are so relatively rare throughout history. Even most places like Shaolin are long past their prime, in my opinion. Usually, the Priests and Sages did their work behind the scenes, at the rear of the army next to the general and king or back in their temples and caves, manipulating the currents of fate and casting their war spells. Magick doesn't need to be up close and personal.

Using Magick and Martial Arts simultaneously in live combat is a seriously challenging thing to do, and it is for this reason that Prophecy in his Ars Anima Gladius writings said that Occult Swordplay is a subject only for those who are already adept at both Magick and Swordsmanship.

To answer the evocation question specifically though, yes, you could do that. I wouldn't recommend it in most circumstances though, for a number of specific reasons. For one, many good natured spirits avoid battlefields and combat. Spirits may live a lot longer than a typical mortal lifespan, but the are born and do die like most other things in the universe, and the energies that go to work on a battlefield are no more healthy for spirits than they are for the humans who are there. Second, the kind of spirit who would actually thrive on the battlefield would be very difficult to control once summoned precisely because that is where he thrives. Unless you are much stronger spiritually or you simply have a good relationship with him, you may find yourself in a situation much like Pandora.

And third is the nature of evocation itself, and why we do the rituals. There are two common types of evocation. One is commonly practiced with things like the Goetia, where the seals and sigils, the words of power and everything is all set up in a certain way so that you can forcefully summon a spirit you've never met, be safe in his presence, command him to do your bidding, and then send him away when you're done with him. The other is more like Bardon teaches, and involves Journeying to the otherworld and through nature, meeting the spirits in their homeland, establishing yourself as a respectable and respected initiate and earning favor and friendship with the spirits. And when this is done, the ritual is set up as a matter of hospitality, to invite a friend over to your home after you have visited his, to make the spirit as comfortable as possible in this world while you discuss and do things together.

If you are going to evoke a spirit on the spot with the first method, chances are he is going to be as disobedient as he can be, and maybe even take revenge for previous offenses if he can. And if you utilize the second method, it takes a considerable amount of time to become adept enough that you can evoke a spirit on the spot both correctly and without offending him. The only two people I have even heard of that have done the second bit in the modern world are Bardon and the aforementioned Prophecy.

But yeah. With enough training, you most certainly can use combat magick, including the use of evocation on the spot. But a Warrior must also be a Strategist, and sometimes you're just better off swinging your sword than wasting precious seconds chanting something.



~:Shin:~

[Haelos]

It doesn't sound like you've spent a lot of time on the street or any on a battlefield.

Yes, you can create all sorts of rituals and spells that will allow you to work all sorts of magick with a sword, and there is even spellcraft that you can do with guns for modern day military arts. You can draw sigils, runes and power symbols in the air. You can use incantation. You can use gestures, which by their very nature are meant to serve as triggers and aids for more complex magick.

But in live combat, you very rarely have time to do all of that.

There is a reason why Warrior Sages and Heroes like the Templars, Berserkers and those few Warrior Yogis of ancient India are so relatively rare throughout history. Even most places like Shaolin are long past their prime, in my opinion. Usually, the Priests and Sages did their work behind the scenes, at the rear of the army next to the general and king or back in their temples and caves, manipulating the currents of fate and casting their war spells. Magick doesn't need to be up close and personal.

Using Magick and Martial Arts simultaneously in live combat is a seriously challenging thing to do, and it is for this reason that Prophecy in his Ars Anima Gladius writings said that Occult Swordplay is a subject only for those who are already adept at both Magick and Swordsmanship.

To answer the evocation question specifically though, yes, you could do that. I wouldn't recommend it in most circumstances though, for a number of specific reasons. For one, many good natured spirits avoid battlefields and combat. Spirits may live a lot longer than a typical mortal lifespan, but the are born and do die like most other things in the universe, and the energies that go to work on a battlefield are no more healthy for spirits than they are for the humans who are there. Second, the kind of spirit who would actually thrive on the battlefield would be very difficult to control once summoned precisely because that is where he thrives. Unless you are much stronger spiritually or you simply have a good relationship with him, you may find yourself in a situation much like Pandora.

And third is the nature of evocation itself, and why we do the rituals. There are two common types of evocation. One is commonly practiced with things like the Goetia, where the seals and sigils, the words of power and everything is all set up in a certain way so that you can forcefully summon a spirit you've never met, be safe in his presence, command him to do your bidding, and then send him away when you're done with him. The other is more like Bardon teaches, and involves Journeying to the otherworld and through nature, meeting the spirits in their homeland, establishing yourself as a respectable and respected initiate and earning favor and friendship with the spirits. And when this is done, the ritual is set up as a matter of hospitality, to invite a friend over to your home after you have visited his, to make the spirit as comfortable as possible in this world while you discuss and do things together.

If you are going to evoke a spirit on the spot with the first method, chances are he is going to be as disobedient as he can be, and maybe even take revenge for previous offenses if he can. And if you utilize the second method, it takes a considerable amount of time to become adept enough that you can evoke a spirit on the spot both correctly and without offending him. The only two people I have even heard of that have done the second bit in the modern world are Bardon and the aforementioned Prophecy.

But yeah. With enough training, you most certainly can use combat magick, including the use of evocation on the spot. But a Warrior must also be a Strategist, and sometimes you're just better off swinging your sword than wasting precious seconds chanting something.



~:Shin:~

Not on any battlefield, no, but I've been in a decent amount of steetfights with other punk kids like myself. It's been quite a while since any of that though, and definitely none since starting my Work.
If I knew anything about meditation and grounding back then, attempting to at least reach Gnosis in a fight seems to me like it would be a fantastic thing to achieve. The only reason I've ever fought someone was to completely subdue them and stop them from hurting me further. I never took the time to think about the things I could have been doing different, especially in relation to spirituality.
The evocation example was one small idea, but there are many other things you could do besides interacting with spirits and energy work when using a weapon.
I understand there isn't really *time* for it, but there IS magick that can manipulate time (or at least, your perception of it), and I was mostly referring to the idea of one who is a total Master of the Arts performing this, not myself.
And really, it makes sense that these practitioners would be rare. It takes skill and knowledge, a lot of training, and an enlightened state of being. There isn't much place on the battlefield for those who have already learned Peace, so I imagine it takes a decent amount of volition to want to put yourself in the circumstances of War.

I'm definitely not saying this is a path for me, but it's fun to speculate on what kinds of power might be hidden before us. And who knows, a War God/demon may take pleasure in being evoked on the battlefield, and might in turn reward you in some way (after, of course, he incinerates you and all the land.)

[Candy Ray]

Would you be happy if someone you didn't know intentionally, forcefully ripped you out of your home and bossed you around?


~:Shin:~

:Shin:~[/quote]

Yes, I do believe in being respectful to these beings, but I wouldn't say they were ripped out of their home because surely they are in many places at once? Like the four archangels who are being placed in the four quadrants by many people simultaneously.I would think a part of them is still back in their home while they multiply themselves in many places, and I've always thought the one standing in the quadrant must come out from the microcosm of the person who called him.