why is Qabalah so important to magick

[annarb]

I realize to more experienced people this may sound like a stupid question or may have an obvious answer that I'm just not getting, but my question is why is qabalah so important to and relevant to magick? Its talked about in pretty much every ceremonial magick book ive read but so far the only practical use ive seen for it is in making talisman's and the correspondences for that...so what is the main purpose and use for qabalah in magick? Often it mostly seems like a lot of vague very symbolic philosophical musings about god, the creation of the universe etc... Again this is my first post here and I apologize if it sounds like a stupid question but I'm really trying to understand this often arcane and confusing subject.

[Hadit]

Honestly? Because the biggest occult groups during the revival, especially closer and into the 1900s, used it as the central of their ideology, usually the initiation system. When Crowley became big he brought the tree of life et al with him from groups like the Golden Dawn.

[CCoburn]

Because it works.

[WillowDarkWytch]

Motumbá Àse!

It's because Otz ha Chayim is one of the few "universal" gliphs to represent the structure of the universe. You can put almost every comogenic system IN/ON the Tree and fits perfectly. Even ATR systems, which in simple sight seem so different to Western Mystery Traditions.

As for Ceremonial Magic, it's roots are in african systems, so it would not be surprising to find that "everything" fits in it. And for Esoteric point of view, Qabalah comes from Egyptian system. Ofcourse for jewish people, for rabbis, they would tell you it's not like that, but antropologic and occult studies reveal the opposit.

Saravá,
Idansinají

[CCoburn]

WDW is right.
From the limitless light(EM Phenomena)that concentrated the pre-cursor to the Big Bang.
Through the Aethyrs of Cosmic anabolism.
To the present, It's all there.
Although sometimes I almost feel as if something is missing, or maybe i'm just insatiable.

Cheers

[corvidus]

Although sometimes I almost feel as if something is missing, or maybe i'm just insatiable.

Cheers

There are always pieces missing

[Desecrated]

I realize to more experienced people this may sound like a stupid question or may have an obvious answer that I'm just not getting, but my question is why is qabalah so important to and relevant to magick? Its talked about in pretty much every ceremonial magick book ive read but so far the only practical use ive seen for it is in making talisman's and the correspondences for that...so what is the main purpose and use for qabalah in magick? Often it mostly seems like a lot of vague very symbolic philosophical musings about god, the creation of the universe etc... Again this is my first post here and I apologize if it sounds like a stupid question but I'm really trying to understand this often arcane and confusing subject.

Kabbalah is an enormous system and you can use it in many different ways. But I found this quote and it probably summons it up the best:

"The Kabbalistic form of Jewish mysticism itself divides into three general streams: the Theosophical/Speculative Kabbalah (seeking to understand and describe the divine realm), the Meditative/Ecstatic Kabbalah (seeking to achieve a mystical union with God), and the Practical/Magical Kabbalah (seeking to alter the divine realms and the World)."

I really recommend reading the wikipedia article on it, because it touches on most areas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Kabbalah
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Qabalah
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practical_Kabbalah

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurufism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_mysticism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkabah_mysticism

[Desecrated]

As for Ceremonial Magic, it's roots are in african systems,

Source needed

And for Esoteric point of view, Qabalah comes from Egyptian system.

Source please.
You don't need to write an essay, just point me in the right direction.

[WillowDarkWytch]

Motumbá Àse, Desecrated

As for Ceremonial Magic, it's roots are in african systems,

Source needed

African as in hebrew, egyptian, sumerian... etc. Semitic, Hamitic/Kemetic... Those africans. didn't meant ATR as in Vodou, Ocha, Obeah or Candomblé if that was what you thought (though they have more relation to the old ways than WMT).

Edit: Maybe it sounded like ONLY african, didn't mean that. You know we have middle east too (arab, chaldean, persian), but that might be influenced by african (egyptian, etc) also.

And for Esoteric point of view, Qabalah comes from Egyptian system.

Source please.
You don't need to write an essay, just point me in the right direction.

Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Ordo Fratres Lucis, Hermetic Order of Martinist, AMORC, etc. It's something that is taught in the mystery schools, it's part of the rosicrucian teachings. That's why I say "for Esoteric point of view".

Saravá,
Idansinají

[Desecrated]

African as in hebrew, egyptian, sumerian... etc. Semitic, Hamitic/Kemetic...

Hebrews, sumerians, semetic people are generally not seen as africans.
Oddly enough most historians tend to see egypt as european and then later arabian. Althought that can certainly be argued against.
Kemetic is a modern reconstruction of ancient egyptian religions, it's about the same as neo-pagans. I don't see what they have to do with anything.
Hamitic was interesting because I've never seen Afroasiatic mentioned before, so now I have something new to research.

[WillowDarkWytch]

African as in hebrew, egyptian, sumerian... etc. Semitic, Hamitic/Kemetic...

Hebrews, sumerians, semetic people are generally not seen as africans.
Oddly enough most historians tend to see egypt as european and then later arabian. Althought that can certainly be argued against.
Kemetic is a modern reconstruction of ancient egyptian religions, it's about the same as neo-pagans. I don't see what they have to do with anything.
Hamitic was interesting because I've never seen Afroasiatic mentioned before, so now I have something new to research.

If hebrews, sumerians and semetic are not "generally seen" as africans is one thing. That they were africans is a fact. We can not base our studies on whats exoteric. The esoteric aspect is the one that gives sence to exoteric. It's not about opinion, sumerians were african, it's not what I feel or think, they were. I'm not saying that is YOUR opinion though, just saying that whats how's "generaly seen" often is wrong. See what happens with vodou, "generaly seen" as black magic or a magic system... and is not.
Egyptians are african, but maybe one might "see" them as a base or root to eurpean groups (thanks to GD and orders alike)-
Kemetism might be new concept, recontructionism as neo-pagan, but esotericaly speaking, we've always known about the Kemi.
Ham and Kemi MIGHT refer to the same, it's worth of study and research.
If you find more on it, please be nice and share

[Desecrated]

If hebrews, sumerians and semetic are not "generally seen" as africans is one thing. That they were africans is a fact. We can not base our studies on whats exoteric. The esoteric aspect is the one that gives sence to exoteric. It's not about opinion, sumerians were african, it's not what I feel or think, they were. I'm not saying that is YOUR opinion though, just saying that whats how's "generaly seen" often is wrong.

The problem is; if you say that generally accepted facts are not true and there is another truth, you kinda have to back it up.
Neither Sumerian or Hebrew saw themselves as Africans, I've never even heard about this concept before. Sumerian even predates most African civilizations.
There was temples being built in the middle east exploring mathematics and astronomy when africans was still nomads.

Unless you're talking about the fact that we are all originally from Africa genetically I would love to see some proof of Sumerian culture being originally from Africa.

[WillowDarkWytch]

The problem is; if you say that generally accepted facts are not true and there is another truth, you kinda have to back it up.
Neither Sumerian or Hebrew saw themselves as Africans, I've never even heard about this concept before. Sumerian even predates most African civilizations.
There was temples being built in the middle east exploring mathematics and astronomy when africans was still nomads.

Unless you're talking about the fact that we are all originally from Africa genetically I would love to see some proof of Sumerian culture being originally from Africa.

You guys love to put words in my mouth. I've never said that. I said that generally seen could be so far from the truth sometimes. Gave an example and everything, so I didn't leave place for misunderstanding in that. Don't twist what I said please!

Let's make an example: I don't see myself as latin american, because I don't have latin features and my ascendance is european. So, I see myself as a caucasian, or european descendant, not as latin american. BUT the fact is that even if my parents came straight from Germany, I was born here, so I'm Latinamerican, either I see myself like it or not. It's a geographic thing, not a "racial" thing.

And there is my mistake. They are not geographically african, they're middle easterns, they were in there now is mesopotamia. My bad. But it is supposed that knowledge came from Africa and moved up to Middle East, then civilizations were formed. Whenever I find any historical source, I'll share it with you. I can't give you esoteric source because of oaths, but we know that is in between those places.


Maybe I should have said Afro-Middle eastern roots rather than african roots.

Ceremonial magic, the one that was known in middle age was a mix of egyptian knowledge and middle eastern knowledge. Now it does have more things put in together, but firstly was those two. AND the most important western school (root) is Egypt. We have tints of Persia, Chaldean, Arab... But what gives form to our schools is Egypt, through the Qabala that was taken by Moses, allegedly. So Hebrew knowledge is basicaly egyptian, african, knowledge.

So, thats why I said what I said (not what you say I said haha). Next time I'll say afro-middle eastern so we won't have any misunderstanding

[Hadit]

I see an alarming amount of misinformation here, I suggest a study of all these system people are claiming fit with or used Kabbalah for the OP. It's become almost propaganda in the occult that the ToL is some perfect tool, which isn't surprising considering the biggest orders have been using it over a century. Hell, Crowley added the comment to AL just to keep out from changing, thus questioning, well, the entire system. The ToL is awesome no doubt, but it's just another tool, and not a super old one.

[corvidus]

The ToL is awesome no doubt, but it's just another tool, and not a super old one.

and in the most common 'form' these days, not a super accurate one either.

[WillowDarkWytch]

I see an alarming amount of misinformation here, I suggest a study of all these system people are claiming fit with or used Kabbalah for the OP. It's become almost propaganda in the occult that the ToL is some perfect tool, which isn't surprising considering the biggest orders have been using it over a century. Hell, Crowley added the comment to AL just to keep out from changing, thus questioning, well, the entire system. The ToL is awesome no doubt, but it's just another tool, and not a super old one.

Please, point the "misinformation".

Please, What is "OP", "AL"? AL is it for Liber AL vel Legis??? I'm not related to those abreviations

And, yes. Otz ha Chayim it's just a tool and it's not needed if you don't go with the hebrew system, but if you do, it's awesome to understand almost everything. A great tool, very useful but not mandatory though hehe.

I used to be a "Library rat" when I was younger. I left all that "obsesive" behaviour behind when I understood that it wasn't really needed for real spiritual and magical work. If one doesn't integrate and assimilate the knowledge in oneself, it's worthless. One becomes just a theoretical magician, a scholar, and not a magist. Although I still have the texts and essays for reading when needed, I'll check them back because there are certain things, very specific things that I know but I don't really retain in my memory, I just know they're are there. I'll see if I find something interesting.

[WillowDarkWytch]

PS: I've already was misunderstood in other thread, so I'd like to leave clear that everything that I write is out of my own experiences. I don't write about things I haven't done or practice. In no way are absolute truths. They're just how I lived it through studing, initiation and practice. I hope you don't feel that I'm imposing because in no way that is my intention. I wouldn't be in this forum if I didn't like to share experiences and read about everyone elses.

That been said, I feel more in peace hehehe [wink]

[Napoli]

Hadit has answered for me regarding this matter. As far as I can see Western magic is largely dominated by the Golden Dawn which uses the Kabbalistic system. I am also of this opinion that the system also borrowed its rituals from other traditions too. The Druid 'Sphere of Protection' comes into my mind. It reminds me a lot of the LBRP.

I don't think Kabbalah is universal. Many esoteric traditions around the world have similarities, but also their differences. It is true that Kabbalah is originally Egyptian. Later it was taken up by the Jews and incorporated into their own system. Kraig mentioned it in his book 'Modern Magick'. Nonetheless, anyone can utilise the Kabbalah for one's spiritual advancement, just like other spiritual traditions. I think deep down they all have the same goal. In that sense it is universal.

[Napoli]

Although sometimes I almost feel as if something is missing, or maybe i'm just insatiable.

Cheers

There are always pieces missing

I have always wondered which part of the Tree of Life represents 'chaos' before 'order' came. Kabbalah is not fully unearthed yet though. Even today people are still studying and extracting information from it.

[Desecrated]

But it is supposed that knowledge came from Africa and moved up to Middle East, then civilizations were formed. Whenever I find any historical source, I'll share it with you. I can't give you esoteric source because of oaths, but we know that is in between those places.

That is unfortunately wrong. The people who left Africa was what we today would call primitive. They had no written word, almost no civilization and had barely started exploring farming. It wasn't until they reached the middle east that farming really evolved. And with a new evolved society came new evolved ideas.

Ceremonial magic, the one that was known in middle age was a mix of egyptian knowledge and middle eastern knowledge. Now it does have more things put in together, but firstly was those two. AND the most important western school (root) is Egypt. We have tints of Persia, Chaldean, Arab... But what gives form to our schools is Egypt, through the Qabala that was taken by Moses, allegedly. So Hebrew knowledge is basicaly egyptian, african, knowledge.

The Egyptian knowledge that came to Europe during the late middle ages and spearheaded the Renaissance was not African Egypt, but Coptic Egypt and Alexandrian Egypt. Egypt at that time was greek and then roman territory.
Here is a quote by david katz

"When Moses received kabbalah on top of mount Sinai, he was in fact restoring the original biblical religion, that of Noah, Now purged of Egyptian superstition."


But to be honest neither Moses, Noah or Egypt had much to do with Kabbalah. It came out of the middle ages. The Jewish populations in Spain and France seems to be most likely, although we cant say for sure. It's part of the jewish tradition to say that Kabbalah is older then it is, but we know that it is a fairly modern invention.

I'm going to put words in your mouth right now:
It feels like you are saying that just because Court de gebelin, freemasons and other 19th century occultist believed that there was an Egyptian origin, we should also think that way.

[Desecrated]

Although sometimes I almost feel as if something is missing, or maybe i'm just insatiable.

Cheers

There are always pieces missing

I have always wondered which part of the Tree of Life represents 'chaos' before 'order' came.

Do a search for "extended tree of life".

Kabbalah is not fully unearthed yet though. Even today people are still studying and extracting information from it.

This is very very true. We also have to remember that some of the key books in kabbalah are still not translated to english.
And that some of them are also written in code, using clever word riddles that losses a lot of it's meaning when translated.
Unless anybody here is an expert in Aramaic and medieval Hebrew, we're basically dead in the water.

[CCoburn]

I have always wondered which part of the Tree of Life represents 'chaos' before 'order' came. Kabbalah is not fully unearthed

I know the Abyss(Daath) is supposed to represent chaos. It has no number, in it all is confusion.
The laws of physics breaks down prior to the Big Bang(Kether), this is a form of chaos.
Whenever reason is transcended, either by itself, or by truth, another form of chaos.
Bizarre events at a Quantum level is also chaos, which exist in the present.

I think the thing that is in question the most as far as validity of the Tree, is the Extended associations.
I saw desecrated mention the extended tree of life. To me this represents the 40 aethrys. A tree of life in each one of the four qabalistic worlds. This is a work in progress for me, however. But I see the past existing, as slices of "time" that represent cosmic anabolism, or katabolism, depending on which way you are moving.

Also, its good to look at the Tree as a work in progress, and not a finished product.

After doing a bit of reading, which I don't do excessively, the tree(Qabalah), gave me the tools I needed to get started actually practicing. I ended up taking all the knowledge I gathered and forming my own rituals, as this was made possible.

I have thought about looking into other areas of Magick, but the tools I have made use of in and of the tree, keeps me pretty damn busy.

I would also like to mention, that science, physics(theoretical and quantum), has helped me considerably in forming my own theories, and understand the TOL, and Qabalah.

Cheers

[WillowDarkWytch]

That is unfortunately wrong. The people who left Africa was what we today would call primitive. They had no written word, almost no civilization and had barely started exploring farming. It wasn't until they reached the middle east that farming really evolved. And with a new evolved society came new evolved ideas.

Knowledge is not always in written form. Actually for africans knowledge MUST be pass down oraly through legends, stories and songs, and the practical knowledge through actual DOING and WATCHING. Knowlegde came up and in the Middle East they developed and "systematized" that knowledge, allowing the study and re study. And allowing us to grab it without being inititated, because that knowledge WAS for initiates.

Ceremonial magic, the one that was known in middle age was a mix of egyptian knowledge and middle eastern knowledge. Now it does have more things put in together, but firstly was those two. AND the most important western school (root) is Egypt. We have tints of Persia, Chaldean, Arab... But what gives form to our schools is Egypt, through the Qabala that was taken by Moses, allegedly. So Hebrew knowledge is basicaly egyptian, african, knowledge.

The Egyptian knowledge that came to Europe during the late middle ages and spearheaded the Renaissance was not African Egypt, but Coptic Egypt and Alexandrian Egypt. Egypt at that time was greek and then roman territory.
Here is a quote by david katz

"When Moses received kabbalah on top of mount Sinai, he was in fact restoring the original biblical religion, that of Noah, Now purged of Egyptian superstition."


But to be honest neither Moses, Noah or Egypt had much to do with Kabbalah. It came out of the middle ages. The Jewish populations in Spain and France seems to be most likely, although we cant say for sure. It's part of the jewish tradition to say that Kabbalah is older then it is, but we know that it is a fairly modern invention.

Western Mystery Schools agree with that JUST at some point. It's not MY opinion, just what is passed down through tradition, just as D. Katz does with his. "When Moses received kabbalah on top of mount Sinai, he was in fact restoring the original biblical religion, that of Noah, Now purged of Egyptian superstition." Mr. Katz sounds very "priestly" in those afirmations. Moses was adopted as a prince. Royalty studied the mysteries and were trained to be priests. The Faraoh was the High Priest and "god incarnated". So, Moses had all the time to take the knowledge from Egypt and then "recieve" it in Mount Sinai.

I'm going to put words in your mouth right now:
It feels like you are saying that just because Court de gebelin, freemasons and other 19th century occultist believed that there was an Egyptian origin, we should also think that way.

Please, stop doing it, I already asked you that.
And NO. I don't hink you should think like me or anyone else. It's NOT freemasons who "started" talking about egyptian origins of the Mystery Schools. And as I said in a post above that you seem to have skiped:

PS: I've already was misunderstood in other thread, so I'd like to leave clear that everything that I write is out of my own experiences. I don't write about things I haven't done or practice. In no way are absolute truths. They're just how I lived it through studing, initiation and practice. I hope you don't feel that I'm imposing because in no way that is my intention. I wouldn't be in this forum if I didn't like to share experiences and read about everyone elses.

So, again, please don't put words in my mouth. Ask me what do I think or feel or want to say if you have doubts. It'll be better for our "relation" in the forum.

I know the Abyss(Daath) is supposed to represent chaos. It has no number, in it all is confusion.
The laws of physics breaks down prior to the Big Bang(Kether), this is a form of chaos.

I do Agree with Spida. In the Abyss you have Chaos and also darkness. In the Tree you have Chaos in Kether, Primum Mobile, then you have "direction" in Chokmah and Order as it is you have it in Binah. You might say in the Supernal Triad you have a process of Chaos (Kether) passing to (Chokmah) Order (Binah). And in a "ascending" path you'd have Order passing to Chaos.
Then you hav certain "order" in Briah, and Chaos remains in Kether/Atziluth

Saravá,
Idansinají

[CCoburn]

I'm thinking also that the energy that existed prior to The primordial point, and into the first few stages of the TOL, being on a Quantum level, there would exist uncertainty(chaos). Kether would be the microcosm, and at the time of the Big Bang, the Microcosm becomes the Macrocosm.

As far as Chockmah and Binah. I think of these as the Supernal Male and Female Archetypes, respectively of course. And from this I would extrapolate that the latter would be slightly more chaotic [grin]

[WillowDarkWytch]

I'm thinking also that the energy that existed prior to The primordial point, and into the first few stages of the TOL, being on a Quantum level, there would exist uncertainty(chaos). Kether would be the microcosm, and at the time of the Big Bang, the Microcosm becomes the Macrocosm.

Ain, Ain Soph and Ain Soph Aur. Yes, you could say that, I would agree, yes, let me think more about it hahaha [rofl]

As far as Chockmah and Binah. I think of these as the Supernal Male and Female Archetypes, respectively of course. And from this I would extrapolate that the latter would be slightly more chaotic [grin]

Binah would be Order because is the receptacle of the electric, proyecting, moving energy of Chokmah. Binah gives "form" to it, gives the materalization to it, and it's Saturn, the great Molder, the outliner of it. That's why it would be "Order". Manifestation has its order and it's due to Binah. In "lower" levels you have a more "chaotic" female, more "energetic" or "wild" female energy and it's Netzach, and in that level the masculine would be the "ordered", circumspect one hehehe [gz]