Are sigils themselves dangerous?

[Red Sun]

My question is about goetic sigils. I want to state in the beginning of this post that I have absolutely no desire in communicating with or summoning demons. It's just something that surfaces every once in a while in my life for various reasons.

I've been especially bothered by the music album I bought recently. Not by the music or the lyrics, but by the contents of the booklet which has 4 goetic sigils inside. I don't even know which demons they represent, but I know they are goetic. Now, I understand that ceremonial magick is something complex and not that easy to do, however there are people who claim all you need are the sigils themselves. I'm wondering if having something like this in a house is in some way dangerous. I don't expect a demon to just appear in the corner of my room, but I wonder if it somehow brings the spirits closer. It may sound silly to some, but this is a serious question. It's unsettling to me. On the other hand, throwing out/selling an album I enjoy just because of it doesn't seem too reasonable, which is what I'm tempted to do. So my specific question is if the sigils are themselves dangerous and whether keeping them in a house in that form is too.

If you don't believe me, take a look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7p5KsT9zh8

By the way, I find the music great, I'm just bothered by the sigils.

[Desecrated]

No.
I have thousands of books on the occult and my house is fairly clean from spirits. A couple of unactivated seals on an album cover is just some squiggly lines on a piece of paper.
It's like a drawing of a gun. It's not going to shoot anybody.

[Red Sun]

Yeah, that's what I thought to be the case. Still, better to be safe than sorry. Thanks

[the_spiral]

No, you have to activate them first. A sigil is like a phone number; it tells you how to reach the spirit, but you still have to call them. But get rid of them anyway if they're causing you fear, since that negativity itself can cloud your environment.

Also, a lot of the Goetics are really not that bad.

[inMalkuth]

I don't mean to poop in the oatmeal here, but if you read the Key of Solomon, it clearly states in the introduction that these sigils aren't meant to conjure up demons, but to activate parts of the brain relating to the personality trait of the said demon. Also, I mean... does it have to be said? A demon is not something that anyone can control, at least not with a pretty symbol and some incense.

[LoneWolf]

Perhaps for the oatmeal's sake it would be appropiate to know the difference between a book and an introduction and also the difference between opinion and fact

Ontopic I personally agree on others though I remember Crowley writing about the book of abrahamelin and its squares creating mayhem by themselves.

[inMalkuth]

okay... FACT: you can neither command nor conjure divine or supernatural beings. They don't obey us. Our rules are not theirs.

[Shinichi]

I don't mean to poop in the oatmeal here, but if you read the Key of Solomon, it clearly states in the introduction that these sigils aren't meant to conjure up demons, but to activate parts of the brain relating to the personality trait of the said demon. Also, I mean... does it have to be said? A demon is not something that anyone can control, at least not with a pretty symbol and some incense.

I have read the Key of Solomon, and that is not in the introduction. It sounds like you read a version that included an introduction by someone who subscribed to the so-called psychological model of magick (a belief about magick that did not exist when the Keys of Solomon were originally written), because Solomonic Evocation involves quite a bit more than doing stuff in your head with just a pretty symbol and some incense. Indeed, a complete Solomonic Ritual can cost well over a thousand US dollars, for all of the supplies and preparations necessary, and that is besides the amount of time that it costs to be appropriately prepared for the execution of the ritual.

okay... FACT: you can neither command nor conjure divine or supernatural beings. They don't obey us. Our rules are not theirs.

A fact is something that is objectively true, and not your personal opinion. They live by different rules, most certainly, but humans are capable of learning and living by those rules also. That is what a practitioner is.



~:Shin:~

[inMalkuth]

First I have to say that just because someone produces an account of having contact or control over Divine or Supernatural entities does not mean that it is objective truth for them or for anyone else. While it may be possible that one person found success with it, that does not ensure anyone else will. Because of the esoteric nature of these things one should assume that it is a symbolic language and not literal. A thing can only be objectively true if it works every time, for everyone who does it, and has an expected result. You cannot debunk my statement by claiming that any of this study is objectively true.

Also, all of this higher Magick is reliant on language. First we have to know the actual language of these beings- and that in itself is debatable. When using letters in connection with numerical value we can really only guess that we got it right, with the right language. If you are using English to communicate with them, then you are probably not going to be successful in knowing them on their terms. Lets say then that Hebrew is the ultimate root language. In order to be successful we need a thorough understanding and ability to apply the Hebrew alphabet, their astronomy, and their language. Can the authors of these translations profess this? We cannot use the Greek if we are agreeing on the Hebrew. What good is it to say that knowing a trait or name of a being gives you authority over it if you do not know the language to which it obeys? This is why I say it is impossible to do.

I want you to know that I firmly believe in Magick and fully recognize that there is a whole world other than our own, and it is inhabited by beings that we would classify as "other". I also support the fact that they interact. What I do not support is the arrogant assumption that they will deign to communicate anything to anyone in any way that we want them to. In other words; we are at their mercy in terms of being enlightened on anything. They will choose their methods, and they will choose what they want to reveal. No perfect understanding of any individuals process or group of persons system is going to get them to obey you in any way. The most an adept can hope for is that they approve of you enough to intervene in your process and reveal something. You do not need a robe, or a wand, or a sigil or talisman or a ceremony or anything. All one needs is to be sincere to whatever degree they are able. Yes, you can apply tried methods, but that still is no guarantee of any result.

In any case when it comes to Gods, Demons, Angels... Aliens. They have an insight, power and knowledge that is vastly superior to our own, and unless a person truly understands just how small we are in relation to their abilities, there will be little success regardless of methods employed.

[Shinichi]

A thing can only be objectively true if it works every time, for everyone who does it, and has an expected result. You cannot debunk my statement by claiming that any of this study is objectively true.

I most certainly can. That is not how I was using the word objective in my previous phrasing, but if you don't think there is any objectivity to the Solomonic Tradition than you're just wrong. Quite a number of people have had experience with that work over the past few centuries. Those who have worked the system correctly have had the exact same results, over and over, like clock work. They have met the same spirits, seen and felt the same effectiveness of Solomons conjurations and curses, and gained the same benefits from the spirits. Those who fail to use the system properly have also had the same results, finding themselves at the mercy of the wild powers they arrogantly called forth and do not know how to send back because they didn't properly prepare. Even those who approach those spirits with different methods still meet the same faces and get the same kinds of results (good and bad).

As I said, the proper practice of the Solomonic methods is expensive. It takes a lot of time, effort and a lot of money - but it works. Whether or not it is a good system to work is a whole 'nother discussion, but it is certainly a functional one. After all, objectivity is what stands in spite of belief, but it is also what stands in spite of disbelief.

Also, all of this higher Magick is reliant on language. First we have to know the actual language of these beings- and that in itself is debatable. When using letters in connection with numerical value we can really only guess that we got it right, with the right language. If you are using English to communicate with them, then you are probably not going to be successful in knowing them on their terms. Lets say then that Hebrew is the ultimate root language. In order to be successful we need a thorough understanding and ability to apply the Hebrew alphabet, their astronomy, and their language. Can the authors of these translations profess this? We cannot use the Greek if we are agreeing on the Hebrew. What good is it to say that knowing a trait or name of a being gives you authority over it if you do not know the language to which it obeys? This is why I say it is impossible to do.

Theurgy does not rely on mundane language at all. Incantation is an art that functions in every language, which is why words spoken by a person of power are powerful no matter what language is spoken. It also doesn't matter what language you speak in communicating with the spirits. Many of them have their own languages, most certainly, but they are quite capable of understanding many languages. Stressing over which language is the root or which language is more powerful is irrelevant, because while language is a useful vehicle (and there's certainly a difference between a Ferrari and a Prius), it is the user of that vehicle that determines exactly how useful it is. In a magical context, surely, but also in a mundane context. There are many spirits who love word games, just as there are mortals who can swindle you out of the shirt on your back all through a clever use of rhetoric.

I want you to know that I firmly believe in Magick and fully recognize that there is a whole world other than our own, and it is inhabited by beings that we would classify as "other". I also support the fact that they interact. What I do not support is the arrogant assumption that they will deign to communicate anything to anyone in any way that we want them to. In other words; we are at their mercy in terms of being enlightened on anything. They will choose their methods, and they will choose what they want to reveal. No perfect understanding of any individuals process or group of persons system is going to get them to obey you in any way. The most an adept can hope for is that they approve of you enough to intervene in your process and reveal something. You do not need a robe, or a wand, or a sigil or talisman or a ceremony or anything. All one needs is to be sincere to whatever degree they are able. Yes, you can apply tried methods, but that still is no guarantee of any result.

There is a reason why Magick has been called a science by the adepts and sages as often as it has been called an art. If you do the correct things, you get the same results. If you don't get the result, then either you did something wrong or you are being deliberately blocked - and as someone who has picked a fight with the Fates themselves, yeah, Providence most certainly can put you in your place (hint: they thoroughly kicked my ass). However, that is not the same as submitting to the mercy of a succubus or imp simply because they are spirits and you are mortal. If someone is too weak to Banish, Cleanse and Ward their own house then they have no business learning the more advanced Mysteries of High Magick in the first place, because that stuff doesn't rely on Theurgy. You can use your own juju in Magick too.

In any case when it comes to Gods, Demons, Angels... Aliens. They have an insight, power and knowledge that is vastly superior to our own, and unless a person truly understands just how small we are in relation to their abilities, there will be little success regardless of methods employed.

The first time I knelt before my patron deity after accepting that he claimed me as one of his men, he wacked me over the head and instructed me, quite plainly, that he "does not want hunchbacked monks or sniveling priests, but warriors and brothers." I have not knelt to any god or spirit since, nor will I ever again, even should he himself demand I do. Brothers don't kneel before brothers.

Sincerity is vital in approaching the gods and spirits. Respect and good manners will get you quite far, too. However, that does not mean that they are all superior to humans by simple virtue of them being spirits. There are humans who are strong and those who are weak, and there are spirits who are strong and those who are weak. Thus, quite naturally, there are spirits who are stronger than most humans and humans who are stronger than many spirits.

Because we are not all created equally, and neither are they.



~:Shin:~

[inMalkuth]

I'm not quite sure what to say to you here. You are either completely delusional, full of total bs, or the grandest mage (and aught to be the wealthiest) man alive. So which are you?

[Shinichi]

I'm not quite sure what to say to you here. You are either completely delusional, full of total bs, or the grandest mage (and aught to be the wealthiest) man alive. So which are you?

If a man knows not what to say, he should say nothing.

I am a simple and humble Norse Pagan Daoist. Or that's the label I currently like the most, at least. I am hardly the grandest mage alive. The things I am talking about in this thread are rather elementary in the Western Mystery Tradition, because the Keys of Solomon is one of the most important works in Western Occult History. At the very least, it's been one of the few systems that has impacted the Western Mystery Tradition as it is today the most, alongside other works like the Picatrix.

If you don't believe that practitioners have their own internal power just as the spirits and gods have their own internal power, that's fine. You have your own paradigm. Most of us, however, aren't going to feel inferior to an imp or a succubus just because they are spirits.



~:Shin:~

[inMalkuth]

Well thank you for your frank reply. I was asking because what you say you experienced (having a patron deity claim you as their own and communicate with you, communicating with spirits, and tangling with the fates) is not very common, though it would appear that you think it is nothing out of the ordinary. My question was that since you have the benefit of communicating with a God, then what has it brought you? I imposed the idea of riches because, well, why would a God want his followers to be poor? I guess I would have a lot of questions for someone that claims to be in communication with a spirit or a God, but I will save those. I am still fine with my perspective on the entire thing, and I stand by my assertions. Thanks again for the conversation.

[Shinichi]

Well thank you for your frank reply. I was asking because what you say you experienced (having a patron deity claim you as their own and communicate with you, communicating with spirits, and tangling with the fates) is not very common, though it would appear that you think it is nothing out of the ordinary.

Well, most people probably wouldn't have been couragous/foolish enough to have a vendetta against the Fates, but being God Claimed is not that uncommon at all. What do you think the Priesthood is? Something you just sign up to? Some can try, but you still have to earn the deities approval before you're really their Priest. Hell, even in Christianity (the Protestants, at least), there is the rhetoric of being "called by god" to do be a preacher or to do certain work. It's not common in the sense that every practitioner is a priest, but it happens enough that Priesthood exists.

My question was that since you have the benefit of communicating with a God, then what has it brought you?

Access to the rich and (more than most may think) extensive pantheon of Norse gods and spirits, confidence in and love for myself (I was very much the hunchbacked and sniveling fellow before I was told not to be, and given freedom to be myself), the comfort of being in a spiritual paradigm that best fits my personality and values (something I spent a good eight years searching for before it found me), knowledge of Norse magics, and a few other things. Mostly spiritual things or personal development things, as I'm not much of a materialistic person.

I imposed the idea of riches because, well, why would a God want his followers to be poor?

Do you have any idea what kinda asshole Odin is? [lol] He's a trial by fire kinda god. He's a death god. He's a "I gave my eye and hung myself, so what are you gonna do to earn it, ya little snot?" kinda guy. I can use the magic I've learned to acquire wealth, but I mostly use it for other things and focus on my training instead. For now. I do some money magick, and I very much enjoy the stuff in the book Financial Sorcery by Jason Miller, but as long as I have enough to live I'm fine. I have my vices, but Greed isn't one of them. Well. Greed for knowledge and wisdom, maybe, but not material things. Even my phone is the model from four years ago. [razz]

I guess I would have a lot of questions for someone that claims to be in communication with a spirit or a God, but I will save those. I am still fine with my perspective on the entire thing, and I stand by my assertions. Thanks again for the conversation.

Communication isn't that hard. Verification that you are talking to the right folks can be, but that can be learned. Offerings and that kind of practice is especially easy, in particular if you do Ancestor Work or make offerings to your local nature spirits. Practice the occult arts long enough and they'll start bugging you even if you don't want them to.



~:Shin:~

[inMalkuth]

Well I am glad that you have been selected by a Deity. I happen to know a number of priests and none of them can claim to have been directly told anything. And I am also glad that you stopped sniveling, God knows we have enough groveling in the world. Being able to be yourself well, that is the goal is it not? I have had a different experience... I was not a groveler, though I did adopt a very pretentious persona of gnosis at one time which wasn't very legitimate. I suppose it still haunts me from time to time, this perspective that I "know" anything. Mostly I can say that I do not "know", but that I understand a lot. While I have to continue to disagree that there is any legitimate system due to our ignorance of the actual, I will concede that it doesn't really matter, ultimately, because they know what we mean. After all, what is, is.

[Shinichi]

There is a balance between humility and arrogance, where you can be confident without being pretentious (usually), and it is a place that I try to stay in when I can. You can acknowledge that there are bigger, older and stronger things than you without groveling to them, just as you can accept that knowing and experiencing some things doesn't mean you know everything.

I will never stop wandering in pursuit of further wisdom, because there is always more to learn. That doesn't mean that I didn't learn anything from more than a decade of study and practice, or from the years of growing up in a spiritual household before that.

Balance is beautiful. [razz]



~:Shin:~

[inMalkuth]

Oh I was never arrogant, I did not flaunt myself or my knowledge... I just thought that I knew more than I did. Eventually I had to give that up so that I could actually discover. Now that I know what I know, I can only say that this much is true, while what is actually true still eludes me. I never really thought about it but I guess I could say that I was God chosen also, though not in person. Certain messages led me to where I am today. I don't have Gods that need my attention, though, and all they really want is for me to be the best person I can be.

[Candy Ray]

Ref. Are sigils themselves dangerous?

Apologies if you've heard this before because I posted it somewhere (!) but when I was in the Theosophical Society they used to consider seals of demons dangerous in themselves, and they kept the books containing them in a locked cabinet. Are they all dorks in the Theosophical Society? Some would think so but I didn't, that's why I was there.

In the past I've had a few dreams in which certain persons used written symbols to make me do things I wouldn't otherwise have done : only within the dream you understand, but I believe it affected my spiritual and magical life in the waking world afterwards. It's true they weren't necessarily seals. One was ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics and the other was writing I didn't understand. The hypnotic effect of both of these was very strong.

[Red Sun]

Wow, what happened here And here I was thinking recently about asking for deletion of this topic, because the problem is solved for me and there was no further discussion. I see that the latter is outdated, so I will not ask for this.

But get rid of them anyway if they're causing you fear, since that negativity itself can cloud your environment.

I don't agree with this particular line because that is the opposite of how I dealt with this problem. Not going into details, I have been diagnosed with a form of anxiety disorder a few years ago and am still on my way to recovery, although in constant progress. Along others, I had atypical fears dealing with the supernatural, things that can't be verified - or at least, not that easily. It's what kept me from everything occult or spiritual for many years. So what I did is a classic ERP (Exposure and Response Prevention), left the sigils on my desk for weeks while trying to ignore it, until I was completely desensitized by them, emotionally speaking. In my eyes I took a risk, because I didn't know if something would happen. If there wasn't a risk involved, I wouldn't feel anxiety, right?

Did something happen while I did it? Sure, there were some negative situations in my life. There were also some positive situations. Nothing out of the ordinary, just human, mundane events. Of course, I don't really know if something happened due to this or not, because how would I know this? But there were no demons appearing, nothing whispered in my ear, no chain of only good or bad luck, none of this happened. So now the album rests happily on my shelf.

Thank you for all your replies, it was an interesting read.

[violetstar]

A thing can only be objectively true if it works every time, for everyone who does it, and has an expected result. You cannot debunk my statement by claiming that any of this study is objectively true.

I most certainly can. That is not how I was using the word objective in my previous phrasing, but if you don't think there is any objectivity to the Solomonic Tradition than you're just wrong. Quite a number of people have had experience with that work over the past few centuries. Those who have worked the system correctly have had the exact same results, over and over, like clock work. They have met the same spirits, seen and felt the same effectiveness of Solomons conjurations and curses, and gained the same benefits from the spirits. Those who fail to use the system properly have also had the same results, finding themselves at the mercy of the wild powers they arrogantly called forth and do not know how to send back because they didn't properly prepare. Even those who approach those spirits with different methods still meet the same faces and get the same kinds of results (good and bad).

As I said, the proper practice of the Solomonic methods is expensive. It takes a lot of time, effort and a lot of money - but it works. Whether or not it is a good system to work is a whole 'nother discussion, but it is certainly a functional one. After all, objectivity is what stands in spite of belief, but it is also what stands in spite of disbelief.

Also, all of this higher Magick is reliant on language. First we have to know the actual language of these beings- and that in itself is debatable. When using letters in connection with numerical value we can really only guess that we got it right, with the right language. If you are using English to communicate with them, then you are probably not going to be successful in knowing them on their terms. Lets say then that Hebrew is the ultimate root language. In order to be successful we need a thorough understanding and ability to apply the Hebrew alphabet, their astronomy, and their language. Can the authors of these translations profess this? We cannot use the Greek if we are agreeing on the Hebrew. What good is it to say that knowing a trait or name of a being gives you authority over it if you do not know the language to which it obeys? This is why I say it is impossible to do.

Theurgy does not rely on mundane language at all. Incantation is an art that functions in every language, which is why words spoken by a person of power are powerful no matter what language is spoken. It also doesn't matter what language you speak in communicating with the spirits. Many of them have their own languages, most certainly, but they are quite capable of understanding many languages. Stressing over which language is the root or which language is more powerful is irrelevant, because while language is a useful vehicle (and there's certainly a difference between a Ferrari and a Prius), it is the user of that vehicle that determines exactly how useful it is. In a magical context, surely, but also in a mundane context. There are many spirits who love word games, just as there are mortals who can swindle you out of the shirt on your back all through a clever use of rhetoric.

I want you to know that I firmly believe in Magick and fully recognize that there is a whole world other than our own, and it is inhabited by beings that we would classify as "other". I also support the fact that they interact. What I do not support is the arrogant assumption that they will deign to communicate anything to anyone in any way that we want them to. In other words; we are at their mercy in terms of being enlightened on anything. They will choose their methods, and they will choose what they want to reveal. No perfect understanding of any individuals process or group of persons system is going to get them to obey you in any way. The most an adept can hope for is that they approve of you enough to intervene in your process and reveal something. You do not need a robe, or a wand, or a sigil or talisman or a ceremony or anything. All one needs is to be sincere to whatever degree they are able. Yes, you can apply tried methods, but that still is no guarantee of any result.

There is a reason why Magick has been called a science by the adepts and sages as often as it has been called an art. If you do the correct things, you get the same results. If you don't get the result, then either you did something wrong or you are being deliberately blocked - and as someone who has picked a fight with the Fates themselves, yeah, Providence most certainly can put you in your place (hint: they thoroughly kicked my ass). However, that is not the same as submitting to the mercy of a succubus or imp simply because they are spirits and you are mortal. If someone is too weak to Banish, Cleanse and Ward their own house then they have no business learning the more advanced Mysteries of High Magick in the first place, because that stuff doesn't rely on Theurgy. You can use your own juju in Magick too.

In any case when it comes to Gods, Demons, Angels... Aliens. They have an insight, power and knowledge that is vastly superior to our own, and unless a person truly understands just how small we are in relation to their abilities, there will be little success regardless of methods employed.

The first time I knelt before my patron deity after accepting that he claimed me as one of his men, he wacked me over the head and instructed me, quite plainly, that he "does not want hunchbacked monks or sniveling priests, but warriors and brothers." I have not knelt to any god or spirit since, nor will I ever again, even should he himself demand I do. Brothers don't kneel before brothers.

Sincerity is vital in approaching the gods and spirits. Respect and good manners will get you quite far, too. However, that does not mean that they are all superior to humans by simple virtue of them being spirits. There are humans who are strong and those who are weak, and there are spirits who are strong and those who are weak. Thus, quite naturally, there are spirits who are stronger than most humans and humans who are stronger than many spirits.

Because we are not all created equally, and neither are they.



~:Shin:~

" Quite a number of people have had experience with that work over the past few centuries. Those who have worked the system correctly have had the exact same results, over and over, like clock work. They have met the same spirits, seen and felt the same effectiveness of Solomons conjurations and curses, and gained the same benefits from the spirits. Those who fail to use the system properly have also had the same results, finding themselves at the mercy of the wild powers they arrogantly called forth and do not know how to send back because they didn't properly prepare."

What sources have you used for these statements?Can you give us examples or are these your own opinions?