My Thoughts on Grimoires

[C505]

Here are my thoughts on the old Grimoires( Greater Key of Solomon, the Goetia etc)

1. No such thing as "fool traps" to hide the secrets from the uninitiated

This was an started by the Golden dawn and later picked up by more lax new age people who wanted all the results without any real work. Think about it, in the Goetia the pentacle of Solomon is made with virgin parchment ( not paper, sheepskin) written in the blood of a black rooster. in the 14th- 18th centuries this was no problem. In Grimorium Verum the purifying herbs must be held together by a thread woven by a virgin girl. Try finding a virgin girl who can weave threads today, back then it was easy to find. There also is no evidence of fool traps ever brought forth other than claims from modern day practitioners.

2. There is some BS written in

The Picatrix claims for one of the materials for summoning the power of a "Sphere" ( Planet) you need the severed head of red headed youth soaked in a vase of olive oil overnight and still has the ability to talk when you pull it out the next morning,enough said.There many similar claims through out the majority of Grimories.

3. There may be different versions or they are incomplete

Grimorium Verum and Grimoire of Armadel are two very good examples. In Grimorium Verum Arthur Waite wrote that the original text failed to give the character of Scrilin necessary for summoning the spirits. Later and in other versions the character of Scrilin appeared, was this added on years later? Or did Waite intentionally omit it? Mathers did edit out parts of the Greater Key of Solomon as an example of editing. Grimoire of Armadel is an example of an incomplete Grimoire, those who have written about it have said it doesn't even give a character of a magical circle ( yet back to example one I have a version that does have one). It also has weird instructions that seem to be mistranslated, the spirits can only be summoned at certain times during certain days yet if the spirit doesn't appear you are to repeat the operation three days in a row. The incense for the spirits is obscure seeming to be made by part powdered human bone which isn't that weird as certain folk traditions and practices call for human remains, never the less the incense seems hard to understand.

I have a couple more thoughts but they're not worth mentioning because they are minor but I welcome everyone's thoughts to add

[Desecrated]

Here are my thoughts on the old Grimoires( Greater Key of Solomon, the Goetia etc)

1. No such thing as "fool traps" to hide the secrets from the uninitiated

The picatrix book 3 chapter 4...

And then later in the book (book 4 chapter 6) Take 20 ounces of henbane...

From Handbuch der pharmazeutischen Praxis:
"In all preparations, the dosage has to be carefully estimated due to the high toxicity of henbane. For some therapeutic applications, dosages like 0.5 g and 1.5– 3 g were used. "

20 ounces is about 566 grams. At least 180 times higher than the recommended use.

If you were to follow the book blindly, you would most likely die.

[Desecrated]

3. There may be different versions or they are incomplete

Grimorium Verum and Grimoire of Armadel are two very good examples. In Grimorium Verum Arthur Waite wrote that the original text failed to give the character of Scrilin necessary for summoning the spirits. Later and in other versions the character of Scrilin appeared, was this added on years later? Or did Waite intentionally omit it?

Waite translated the french copy of the text. Which is a little bit odd because he later in the book on ceremonial magic gives the comment that the italian versions are more complete.
The new translation from Jospeh H. Peterson is a lot more "true" since it draws from several different printed versions and manuscripts. It also includes one french text and one Italian text and excerpts from the manuscript kept in the british library.

The version Waite was working from did not have the illustrations.

---

All translations done by crowley or maters should be avoided since they often are horrible incomplete, completely wrong and just downright terrible.

[C505]

Your first point: On "The picatrix book 3 chapter 4"

See my 2nd thought on the Grimoires having BS in them

Your second point: On the translations

Again no matter what form different copies exist as well see my example on the Grimoire of Armadel.

Appreciate your feedback

[violetstar]

Here are my thoughts on the old Grimoires( Greater Key of Solomon, the Goetia etc)

1. No such thing as "fool traps" to hide the secrets from the uninitiated

The picatrix book 3 chapter 4...

And then later in the book (book 4 chapter 6) Take 20 ounces of henbane...

From Handbuch der pharmazeutischen Praxis:
"In all preparations, the dosage has to be carefully estimated due to the high toxicity of henbane. For some therapeutic applications, dosages like 0.5 g and 1.5– 3 g were used. "

20 ounces is about 566 grams. At least 180 times higher than the recommended use.

If you were to follow the book blindly, you would most likely die.

Nicely observed.Similar to the NT narrative in Gospel John; 'Nicodemus, who had first come to Him by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds weight. So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen wrappings with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews.'

That weight would have been equivalent in cost today as bringing in a small truck full of diamonds!Also it was not the burial custom of the Jews.They did not embalm.Myrrh and aloes were ingredients used in that process.Whoever wrote the passage was unfamiliar with Hebrew burial custom.

[violetstar]

Here are my thoughts on the old Grimoires( Greater Key of Solomon, the Goetia etc)

1. No such thing as "fool traps" to hide the secrets from the uninitiated

This was an started by the Golden dawn and later picked up by more lax new age people who wanted all the results without any real work. Think about it, in the Goetia the pentacle of Solomon is made with virgin parchment ( not paper, sheepskin) written in the blood of a black rooster. in the 14th- 18th centuries this was no problem. In Grimorium Verum the purifying herbs must be held together by a thread woven by a virgin girl. Try finding a virgin girl who can weave threads today, back then it was easy to find. There also is no evidence of fool traps ever brought forth other than claims from modern day practitioners.

2. There is some BS written in

The Picatrix claims for one of the materials for summoning the power of a "Sphere" ( Planet) you need the severed head of red headed youth soaked in a vase of olive oil overnight and still has the ability to talk when you pull it out the next morning,enough said.There many similar claims through out the majority of Grimories.

3. There may be different versions or they are incomplete

Grimorium Verum and Grimoire of Armadel are two very good examples. In Grimorium Verum Arthur Waite wrote that the original text failed to give the character of Scrilin necessary for summoning the spirits. Later and in other versions the character of Scrilin appeared, was this added on years later? Or did Waite intentionally omit it? Mathers did edit out parts of the Greater Key of Solomon as an example of editing. Grimoire of Armadel is an example of an incomplete Grimoire, those who have written about it have said it doesn't even give a character of a magical circle ( yet back to example one I have a version that does have one). It also has weird instructions that seem to be mistranslated, the spirits can only be summoned at certain times during certain days yet if the spirit doesn't appear you are to repeat the operation three days in a row. The incense for the spirits is obscure seeming to be made by part powdered human bone which isn't that weird as certain folk traditions and practices call for human remains, never the less the incense seems hard to understand.

I have a couple more thoughts but they're not worth mentioning because they are minor but I welcome everyone's thoughts to add

My thoughts are that your observations concerning 'fool traps' or as we know it 'blinds' are incorrect.

A basic understanding of how and why these blinds are employed in magical writings is given after Initiation by most genuine groups.I can also assure you that the blinds were certainly not apologetics from modern day practitioners as you believe.

Your line of thinking is in error.This is revealed when you state how ' In Grimorium Verum the purifying herbs must be held together by a thread woven by a virgin girl. Try finding a virgin girl who can weave threads today, back then it was easy to find'.
Firstly you read it as a literal truth.'Virgin' is not as you see it but something different ie not a denotion of a female who has not had sexual relations.Again,the severed head of a red haired youth you see as BS yet this relates to an Alchemical process.You are then stumped by the inclusion of human bone in an incense and believe it 'may also be found in certain folk traditions and practices.' Common sense suggests this ingredient should not be taken literally as bone does not burn without high temperatures.The writer is here talking about a herb.

Throughout these type of texts you will encounter both blinds and ridiculous sounding requirements aimed both to conceal as a secret and to put off dabblers who will not be bothered to gather eye of newt,blood of a rooster or to decapitate a red haired guy!

[C505]

You can assure me that traps and blinds were not employed by modern apologetics but can you prove it ? It seems you read to much into plain language. To ward off dabblers? My historical understanding was that it was a death sentence to own any of this material

[Desecrated]

You can assure me that traps and blinds were not employed by modern apologetics but can you prove it ? It seems you read to much into plain language. To ward off dabblers? My historical understanding was that it was a death sentence to own any of this material

You can look at the first example I gave. If you read the book it specifically says that there are traps and that comes from a medieval source.

[The Cove]

Fun stuff indeed. A kind of anthropology of pissed off people. Taking systems and personalizing them to such a degree. Karma weeps. And the holy ghost laughs.

[C505]

You can assure me that traps and blinds were not employed by modern apologetics but can you prove it ? It seems you read to much into plain language. To ward off dabblers? My historical understanding was that it was a death sentence to own any of this material

You can look at the first example I gave. If you read the book it specifically says that there are traps and that comes from a medieval source.

Just because one book says it doesn't meant applies for all

[Desecrated]

You can assure me that traps and blinds were not employed by modern apologetics but can you prove it ? It seems you read to much into plain language. To ward off dabblers? My historical understanding was that it was a death sentence to own any of this material

You can look at the first example I gave. If you read the book it specifically says that there are traps and that comes from a medieval source.

Just because one book says it doesn't meant applies for all

No, that is true. But it is proof that the idea existed back then already. I've seen similar claims in Jewish literature so it wasn't uncommon and it wasn't invented in modern times.

[violetstar]

The OP suggests there are no fool traps but that recipes found within magical texts are to be taken as read.

From that line of thinking I cannot imagine how I will obtain a Jews liver or Bats wool.To get a wolf tail or tongue of dog I would probably have to go hunting or mutilate some ones pet.This then is truly nonsense when what is being alluded to is:

Jews liver = Cuckoo Pint or Arum Lily
Bats Wool = Mullein
Wolf tail = Aconitum or Wolfsbane
Tongue of dog = Houndstongue

Here are three more sinister blinds :

Graveyard dirt = Vervain (There was never a need to visit a graveyard)
Grease from a Gibbet = Felonswort or Woody Nightshade
'The spirit that gathers the dead villagers together' = Yew tree roots

Here is another example of plants hidden in prescriptions for clothing:

'' The petticoat is red,the gown is green'' = A Poppy
'' the petticoat is yellow,the gown is green'' = Daffodil

Basic folklore even without Adept knowledge..

[C505]

The OP suggests there are no fool traps but that recipes found within magical texts are to be taken as read.

From that line of thinking I cannot imagine how I will obtain a Jews liver or Bats wool.To get a wolf tail or tongue of dog I would probably have to go hunting or mutilate some ones pet.This then is truly nonsense when what is being alluded to is:

Jews liver = Cuckoo Pint or Arum Lily
Bats Wool = Mullein
Wolf tail = Aconitum or Wolfsbane
Tongue of dog = Houndstongue

Here are three more sinister blinds :

Graveyard dirt = Vervain (There was never a need to visit a graveyard)
Grease from a Gibbet = Felonswort or Woody Nightshade
'The spirit that gathers the dead villagers together' = Yew tree roots

Here is another example of plants hidden in prescriptions for clothing:

'' The petticoat is red,the gown is green'' = A Poppy
'' the petticoat is yellow,the gown is green'' = Daffodil

Basic folklore even without Adept knowledge..

Common known folklore really doesn't count as fool traps or blinds. A point I forgot to make is the grimories are a product of the time and place they were written

[Shinichi]

It should be noted that the noble and wealthy folks that the grimoires usually ended up in the hands of would not necessarily be educated in what would be common folklore among people of lower status, and so such knowledge would not be necessarily basic and certainly could be considered an initiatic blind among the average nobles.

It is also important to see distinction between what is being referenced in code and what is actually needed. Actual graveyard dirt, for example, most certainly has potent juju and is still used today in some schools of spellcraft. There are also important occult properties in certain animal parts, though most people these days look upon the mysteries of blood and bone with distaste.



~:Shin:~

[C505]

It should be noted that the noble and wealthy folks that the grimoires usually ended up in the hands of would not necessarily be educated in what would be common folklore among people of lower status, and so such knowledge would not be necessarily basic and certainly could be considered an initiatic blind among the average nobles.

It is also important to see distinction between what is being referenced in code and what is actually needed. Actual graveyard dirt, for example, most certainly has potent juju and is still used today in some schools of spellcraft. There are also important occult properties in certain animal parts, though most people these days look upon the mysteries of blood and bone with distaste.



~:Shin:~

Excellent points are there some coding in the sense of common folklore yes there are, are there some stuff written in to sound esoteric yes again. My whole point was the authors of the grimoirie's did not write fake rituals and ingredients to fool people minus the esoteric stuff mentioned before. Desecrated pointed out some stuff but the one book admitted it and the Jewish people were always secretive even in their religious practice ( in some sects) none of that equals to "blinds" and 'fools traps" on a universal level though.

[violetstar]

"Common known folklore really doesn't count as fool traps or blinds. A point I forgot to make is the grimories are a product of the time and place they were written"

Yes it does simply because one of the keys of deciphering the fool trap is to access where the various prescription specifics originate from.

[violetstar]

It should be noted that the noble and wealthy folks that the grimoires usually ended up in the hands of would not necessarily be educated in what would be common folklore among people of lower status, and so such knowledge would not be necessarily basic and certainly could be considered an initiatic blind among the average nobles.

It is also important to see distinction between what is being referenced in code and what is actually needed. Actual graveyard dirt, for example, most certainly has potent juju and is still used today in some schools of spellcraft. There are also important occult properties in certain animal parts, though most people these days look upon the mysteries of blood and bone with distaste.



~:Shin:~

Graveyard dirt,yes still used and they sell it online too.For the unenlightened everywhere.

[Desecrated]

Sixth and seven book of Moses calls for doves blood, and actually mean the blood of a dove.
Verum calls for dovesblood ink, but that is ruby crushed into ink. Ruby only exists in a couple of mines in Macedonia, Scotland and Afghanistan and was extremely rare up until modern times.
Dragonblood ink is made from the resin of the Dracaena cinnabari tree. They only grow in Yemen.

Not exactly easy ingredients to find. And clearly Code words only known by scholars and wealthy people. If a poor person tried to follow the spell and used blood from an actual dove it would not work.

[Desecrated]

The Book Of Soyga by john dee is written entirely in cipher.
Prodigiorum Ac Ostentorum Chronicon by Conrad Lycosthenes
Sir George Ripley and his scrolls
The Rohonc Codex
And there are a couple of more alchemical texts that are written in chiper or code as well.

The tuba philosophorum is a book about alchemy pretending to be a book about greek philosophy and natural science.

Agrippa says in the 3 books of the occult that it is not written in order and the clever student will have to piece it together himself.

If you follow the exact order in key of solomon to make the magical mirror it will explode/crack. The order of the metals have to be changed.

[violetstar]

The two last posts by Desecrated should finally clarify exactly what I had originally pointed out.It also makes clear the differences between scholarly investigation applying critical thinking and the personal opinion of those who can only apply literal thought to texts they do not fully understand.

[Shinichi]

Graveyard dirt,yes still used and they sell it online too.For the unenlightened everywhere.

Unenlightened my ass. Do you not know how occult virtues work? Because it's not just herbs and minerals and metals that are special. Everything has unique metaphysical properties that can be used in spell and ritual if you understand what those properties are. Water from the sea is not the same as water from a clean river, and earth from your back yard sure as hell is not the same as earth from the consecrated grave of someone you loved or hated.

There are times where graveyard dirt is written and it perhaps means vervain, and there are times where graveyard dirt is graveyard dirt - especially in non-hermetic works. Because everything has its own power, and it is a mark of the initiate to see that power and understand what context it is to be used in.



~:Shin:~

[violetstar]

Graveyard dirt,yes still used and they sell it online too.For the unenlightened everywhere.

Unenlightened my ass. Do you not know how occult virtues work? Because it's not just herbs and minerals and metals that are special. Everything has unique metaphysical properties that can be used in spell and ritual if you understand what those properties are. Water from the sea is not the same as water from a clean river, and earth from your back yard sure as hell is not the same as earth from the consecrated grave of someone you loved or hated.

There are times where graveyard dirt is written and it perhaps means vervain, and there are times where graveyard dirt is graveyard dirt - especially in non-hermetic works. Because everything has its own power, and it is a mark of the initiate to see that power and understand what context it is to be used in.



~:Shin:~

Not so.I argue that these terms have been misinterpreted by those who were ignorant of the text they read from.Look at Desecrateds posts above for examples that prove you are in error.

[Desecrated]

Not so.I argue that these terms have been misinterpreted by those who were ignorant of the text they read from.Look at Desecrateds posts above for examples that prove you are in error.

There might some cases for that, but shin is correct. Real dirt from the grave is used in many forms of magic.
In Icelandic and other Scandinavian necromancy the dirt is taken from a specific grave so that you can control that specific person. So if I take dirt from your grave, it has your essence in it and then I can use you to do my bidding. These writings unfortunately only go back to about the 13th century.

The oldest example I can think of is from the Aeneid written around 20 bc. It clearly talks about dirt, blood in the dirt and a living corpse.

[Desecrated]

Graveyard dirt = Vervain

This is a really fucking interesting theory. I've been looking at some of the literature of vervain/verbena and it's old. Like really Old.

What source are you using for this?

[Shinichi]

Not so.I argue that these terms have been misinterpreted by those who were ignorant of the text they read from.Look at Desecrateds posts above for examples that prove you are in error.

You make the mistake of assuming that I am talking about things I've read from books, instead of something that I've held in my hands. I am a practitioner. I do things. I have stood in a graveyard, spoken to its spirits, and held the earth of the dead in my hands. I do not need a book to tell me that there is power in a graveyard. I know from experience that there is.

Alas, if you do not practice in a way that connects you to the world around you, then my words will likely mean little to you.



~:Shin:~