Reality check.

[inMalkuth]

The entire system of magick is inherently flawed. The foundation of Kabbalah, the formation of magic squares, the use of number attributes for letters and therefor words, the attributes of the tarot, the use of Divine Names, the use of sigils and who knows what else; is flawed. All of this is reliant on a formula that no one can even agree on what the foundation is. Is it Hebrew? Is it Egyptian? Is it Greek? To what language do we look to decide on what number to place the value for correspondences? And, even should that be agreed upon, we still have to agree what number goes where, and be able to translate it into our own language (which is nearly impossible). And who decided all of this to be true in the first place? Does anyone really understand how this all came about?

The point of my post is that we do not know the actual science involved in this process, and more than likely all of this is invalid in the attempt at "perfect" ceremony, spell craft etc... But that is not the point of magick, in my opinion. What matters is the intention of the magician and what they believe they are doing. This essentially invalidates any system, because it says that we all have our own valid system. In other words: you do not need to strictly adhere to any system. This is not to devalue them, but its a reality check for those that claim any of this is the only and completely legitimate way. It is one more veil that people hide under.

No, magic as an act of applying power is personal and does not have any rules. However, the personal objective that motivates such activity does have an origin and a thread. This is why occult philosophy dominates practical magick because it allows for the magician to understand their motive, and therefor why they are wanting to do what they want to do. If one is askew in motivation, then the God that they are appealing to will not answer. Lets say we have a desire for some magical love spell. There are many flavors of love and many reasons for wanting things. Say we want personal, intimate love with someone. It is easy enough to call upon Aphrodite for her assistance to acquire her aid. To call upon Hades, you probably wouldn't get much help (or what you get would meet with his ends and not yours). Now lets suppose that what you want is to possess a persons attentions to satisfy your desire for them. Is this an act of love? Would the God of love assist you or no? Maybe in this case Hades would be better suited for your aims.

When it comes to understanding the manifest world and our motive for interacting with it we have to examine what the fundamental meaning of words are, and what the premise of life really is. In this sense, occult philosophy does wonders. If the magician's will is not in line with the Divine, then the fruit of the work will not be as bountiful. In order to effectively practice magick, one needs to understand themselves, and their motives, and the meanings of words.

Always keeping in mind that we do not "know God". We cannot, and should not, know the truth because we are not Divine in the same sense as He/They are. We do not know for certain the scientific methods that are valid in the eyes of the Divine, we can only presume to know this. We work with what is, what we know, what we desire and what we have, and that is all anyone needs to possess in magick working. You can imagine yourself to be protected by symbols, or by intention, or whatever other human means you carry but the truth is that God will do what God wants to do, and there will be no rules for you to beseech to control Him/Them. In effect, all of this is illusion; but it is quite real, because it is all we have. One does not tame a the serpent of wisdom, they can only hold it, examine it, interact with it for a time, and then it slips back into the grass.

So yes, it is good to study, and to examine, and to know what we are able to know. No, it is not necessary to take it to the extreme of understanding, because ultimately it holds no value to the Gods. The good of it is for the self of the magician in knowing motive. When you understand your own vision of the World, you will probably find that you have no need for spell work at all, because your will will be in line with what is real and attainable, and you will find success. THIS is what the Gods want for us; to be successful in using our limited power in our personal lives. THIS is what they will aid you with, especially if you are seeking to aid others with this objective.

[inMalkuth]

I wanted to clarify something I wrote. I said that should you want to possess a persons attentions to satisfy your desire may not be an act of love. What I mean is, to overthrow their free will in deciding for themselves and charm them into submission. I do think it is valid to call upon a love God for the ability to be authentically charming to that person. This is no easy feat and would require you to make adjustments in your person to become appealing to them. To overthrow a persons free will by dominating them out of spell craft in my opinion is counteractive to Divine Rights of the individual. Unless you want to assume that that person does not deserve their free will and that the God you call upon agrees, which I think is opening a whole can of worms that Id rather avoid, I don't see this happening. In what way should anyone believe they are deserving of a spell that would subjugate another persons free will? I cannot think of anyone that deserves that right (though it probably happens all the time). Here we probably get into the various kinds of magick and Id rather not delve into that this moment. Best to stick with my previous assertion that the only kind of aid a God is going to give you is in the act of liberating the will of another from such domination. Anything short of that, in my view, is black magick.

[Desecrated]

Your arguments really to heavily upon loose affirmatives.

Break it up in smaller pieces an analyze each part.

[inMalkuth]

Thank you for the critique of my presentation. What do you have to say about the content?

[violetstar]

"The entire system of magick is inherently flawed. The foundation of Kabbalah, the formation of magic squares, the use of number attributes for letters and therefor words, the attributes of the tarot, the use of Divine Names, the use of sigils and who knows what else; is flawed. All of this is reliant on a formula that no one can even agree on what the foundation is. Is it Hebrew? Is it Egyptian? Is it Greek? To what language do we look to decide on what number to place the value for correspondences? And, even should that be agreed upon, we still have to agree what number goes where, and be able to translate it into our own language (which is nearly impossible). And who decided all of this to be true in the first place? Does anyone really understand how this all came about? "

I feel there are some very good points in that section of your reflection.As I have pointed out elsewhere transliteration into English is fraught with problems.The flaws often occur when one uses an eclectic mix 'n match approach rather than adopt one cohesive system that feels right.If that brings results we need not look for agreement with others.

[Desecrated]

Thank you for the critique of my presentation. What do you have to say about the content?

It's flawed.

[Napoli]

These gods care for only what they want. Whether they want to respect the free will of others or not depends on them. Gods can be flawed, deal with it. A god can be swayed with offerings, devotions and bribe to do this that goes against the 'Divine Law'. There is no exception. Even those whose job is to uphold the 'Divine Law' can be swayed. They may have a soft spot for a certain devotee of theirs and make an exception. I have seen supposedly bad gods aka demons, not accepting a request because it is not for the greater good. If free will can indeed be violated and manipulated, do you think that this universe really care about the matter?

I agree that we don't know the God or Creator Source. But many of us are striving towards it and many I am sure have succeeded .

[chowderpope]

"There are also persons who imagine that whatever they themselves have not been able to acquire, must be utterly beyond the reach of all understanding; while others again will consider as useless any science of which (although they may have been often instructed in it) they have failed to preserve the recollection, owing to its difficulty of retention."

-CLAUDIUS PTOLEMY

[Cam Revillot]

The entire system of magick is inherently flawed.

Might be a strong word. Diversity can be strength. But from a scientific pov, yes flawed

The point of my post is that we do not know the actual science involved in this process, and more than likely all of this is invalid in the attempt at "perfect" ceremony, spell craft etc... But that is not the point of magick, in my opinion. What matters is the intention of the magician and what they believe they are doing. This essentially invalidates any system, because it says that we all have our own valid system. In other words: you do not need to strictly adhere to any system.

This is what drew me to chaos magick. You might want to check it out if you haven't yet.

Its results driven, they don't focus to heavily on WHY it works, as long as it works, and they absolutely believe in doing what works for YOU instead of following a strict formula. You get to make it your own.

This will sometimes get you into arguments with people who are very knowledgeable in strict formulas for magick because to them personalization sometimes comes across as "You're doing it wrong"

Not sure how familiar you are with it but Pop Magick! By Grant Morrison is a good and short read on the subject.

No, magic as an act of applying power is personal and does not have any rules.

Mmm, I would say it has at least one rule, simply that it must work for you.

If absolutely any personal method is valid and only your will is important, then you could say that praying to Jesus you get the right lottery numbers is "magick", and of course that doesn't work or 90% of Americans would win the lottery.

So some personal method give you absolutely zero results, and that's the only thing that makes one thing more valid than another in my opinion.

[inMalkuth]

Sure people pray for all kinds of things and often it does not manifest. The same can be said for any "high magick" process. The fact that these Deities have their own objectives makes it difficult to anticipate what will or wont be acceptable. By all mean feel free to pursue whatever floats your magickal boat.

[Napoli]

pursue whatever floats your magickal boat.

I think you have discovered the secret to how magic works. This is the fundamental of Chaos magic- if it works or yields results, do it.

[inMalkuth]

I suppose... I guess I am of the opinion that its not meant to support chaos, though. Its meant to bring order, and thereby meaning... but yes, !chaos! It emits, no?

[Napoli]

I suppose... I guess I am of the opinion that its not meant to support chaos, though. Its meant to bring order, and thereby meaning... but yes, !chaos! It emits, no?

Chaos Magic is a paradigm of the occult arts. It has nothing to do with bringing chaos or discord.

[inMalkuth]

I have to disagree... why would it be called chaos magick if it had nothing to do with chaos?

[inMalkuth]

"There are also persons who imagine that whatever they themselves have not been able to acquire, must be utterly beyond the reach of all understanding; while others again will consider as useless any science of which (although they may have been often instructed in it) they have failed to preserve the recollection, owing to its difficulty of retention."

-CLAUDIUS PTOLEMY

It is true, I do not put much faith in magick as a source for acquiring things, for earning favor of a God, for casting spells or communing with other beings. I believe that all of these things are potentially possible, but I do not feel that it is the actual truth of what magick is. I think that a Divine Being would scoff at most petty desires, and I do not believe anyone is worthy of the advantage of a God or Demon or Angel giving them assistance should it not be for the good of all of us. I think that this is best exemplified with the phrase "Love is the Law, Love under Will". If what you desire is not a true form of love, and the best love being that of altruism or agape, then you are not living in accordance with the true goal of any interaction on the part of Divine Beings. That is just my opinion, of course.

If you want to believe that you can accomplish other things, you are free to do so.

[Napoli]

I have to disagree... why would it be called chaos magick if it had nothing to do with chaos?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic

Why do you think magic is all bad? Why do you think human beings are unworthy of divine assistance and divinity? I am not trying to get into a debate here. But I think you lack knowledge of what you talk about. Please, read and do your research. The fact that you assumed that Chaos magic has something to do with creating chaos around us shows that you need to learn more. I am not trying to be condescending. I am just advising you.

This universe was born from chaos. We are currently living in the order. Look up what those two terms mean. In addition, all living beings are divine. The divine spark resides in us all. The essence of the Creator Source pervades everything in this universe. The main problem with humankind is that they have forgotten their divine origin and potential.

[inMalkuth]

I suppose... I guess I am of the opinion that its not meant to support chaos, though. Its meant to bring order, and thereby meaning... but yes, !chaos! It emits, no?

No offense, but you failed to understand what I said here. In my original statement; that the perceived practice of magick was actually not 100% legitimate because we cannot agree on the language and its numerical value, and we cannot establish what is valid. Then I went on to say that it does not really matter, because it is the intention of the magician and not his methods that prove their worth.

My point in saying this is that, because it is not 100% accurate and secure, it does not establish a sense of peace, unity and order; and therefor begets some form of chaos (which is what I meant by the quote above). I then said that chaos emits, to which you agreed. Now, my whole point is that the objective here is to organize this chaos. If the objective is to order chaos, then one needs to really examine what chaos is, and how that state or condition or force affects us as a people.

My conclusions are, that if our Divine role is to establish order from chaos, then we are meant to bring about peace, prosperity and security (which I posted elsewhere) to better assist our sense of Order. With this understanding, it is logical that a Divine Source or Creator will only assist those who's aims are that of the Divine objective; ordering chaos. It is therefor logical to presume that appealing for aid from Demons, flawed Gods, etc... is illusory, because if the whole point is to form an order, then why would there be Divine or semi-Divine beings that could thwart this? Therefor the only "Source" is the one on the side of Order, and not the petty desires of flawed self-motivated individuals- be they magicians or not.

All of this hinges, of course, on the idea that there is one Divine Source or Intelligence. If there is no "One" Source then how did anything become Divine? Did it evolve into some higher consciousness? Also, if the actual order is one in which these traps of Demons and flawed Gods are part of the process, then the actual Order is not order, and therefor it is all a form of Chaos. So which is it then? Are we Divine because we are part of a Design? Or are we Divine by simple virtue of existence? Is there no order at all? Is it all just chaos? If it is, then there truly is little hope for any of this. Better get what you can now, while you are able.

[inMalkuth]

It is for the reasons I state above that I can say occult philosophy, or philosophy itself, is dominant to practical magick. You can cast all the spells you want, you can channel and read tarot and engage in ceremony and whatever else you consider to be magick; but if your intention and understanding of a design is not in line with what is the actual design, nothing will happen. All of this is starting to remind me of the story of the cave.

[Napoli]

As I have said before from chaos came order. There is no such thing is maintaining law and order. The chaos we are talking about is not the same. Yes, we are all divine. Didn't you read about the Tree of Life and how humankind came into existence, from Hermeticism and Kabbalah? You have specified that chaos magic is about creating destruction and anarchy. But if you read the link I have given, it says that chaos magic has no set of rules and laws. I think that is where the name originated.

I believe the Creator Source is an all pervading energy. It has no form like it is a God or Goddess, or its combination. It is not anthropomorphic. The Creator Source both and none at the same time; especially the latter in its unmanifest form. It can also be referred to as chaos. We are all fragments of the Creator Source.

I think I can understand what you want to say about the gods. I don't worship anyone and does not hold them as the ultimate authority. They are definitely way more powerful than me, but that won't make me worship them. The demon I worked with knows very well, that I am only working with them, not worshipping them. I have made the intention clear at the beginning. Like you, I am also wary of gods and goddesses. However, if you go on denying your own divine potential and believing you are not deserving of help from the divinity or not knowing the Creator Source, you are wrong.

Again, I advice you to study. The Kabbalah and Hermeticism is a good start. How the universe and humankind came into existence, why we are here now, what is our life purpose, what are these gods and what is the true God, etc. I am of the opinion that the universe or Creator Source is indifferent. It does not care whether we look up to it, up to others, feel unworthy of ourselves, whether we work with demons or gods, it does not matter. The universe came into existence because the Creator Source wanted to experience things. Both good and bad are part of that.

[inMalkuth]

First I need to say that I never said chaos magick is about destruction or any such thing.

Also I would like to ask; how did these Gods become Gods? Did the apparently unassuming, impersonal "Creator Source" which you say has no real identity give them immortality? If the Creator Source has no agenda other than to experience, is this not chaos? Therefor there would be no need to establish order of any kind, and trying to understand it is chasing your tail. Ultimately what you are looking at is that it is all Chaos. So... Do What Thou Wilt I guess.

[inMalkuth]

According to this vision of Source, which does not discern between right and wrong and simply exists to experience... then the only thing that would matter is passion and conviction, regardless of justice or authenticity. The thing I cannot help but recognize as a flaw in this is... that there is a design behind this and if there is a design, then there is a personality. Now if you suggest that the personality does not care about anything other than the right to experience, then that I can accept. Kind of a bleak perspective on it all though. Why then would anyone bother with anything other than the pursuit of strength and victory at any cost? The weak fall, the old and sick die. The strong survive. Welcome to Satanism I suppose...

[Napoli]

I have to disagree... why would it be called chaos magick if it had nothing to do with chaos?

I thought you had no idea of chaos magic based on the above statement. I explained to you later Chaos magic is not about creating discord.

For your other questions, I have already given the answer. You should study more. Then you will find out your answer. These things are too big to explain in a forum.

Yes, it is a bleak perspective. Especially, for someone like me who had a religion, became an atheist and now traversing the occult and spiritual path. But my hopelessness won't change the truth. And there is nothing Satanic about that. What we call god are not gods in the sense of religion. They are spiritually advanced than us. We have many things to learn from them and they can help us to attain our goals. Are they perfect? No. Are they all bad? No. They are like us human beings. They are capable of doing both good and bad. If you want you can do magic without invoking them for help and for the betterment of this world. Many of us are striving to evolve spiritually like them. Some have succeeded. I have said it in an earlier post.

Magic is like fire. You can use it for both good and bad, just like many things in this world. However, that does not make it inherently bad. Magic can be used to heal, get out of debt, find a lover without forcing anyone, banish your enemies from your life who are trying to harm you and so on. Many people don't practise magic and they are happy too. One reason I came to magic is because I know there is no one out there to look after me, namely a god. Magic will provide me one way so that I can take care of myself. I don't have anyone to pray to in my most desperate moment. It makes me feel helpless. But it won't change the truth.

[inMalkuth]

What I am not seeing is this concept of "spiritually evolved"

In order to be "more advanced" that would mean there is a goal or a type of personality that we are meant to attain towards. If this is how a being becomes freed from the mortal coil, then this must be the reason for existence, no? What then, is the characteristics of a being who is "Spiritually evolved"? If we look at this as a realm of experience then a spiritually evolved person is one who is able to experience the most or the best. If we consider that there is a Law of no-harm, then it is the one who was capable of accomplishing the most without doing any harm. If it is to assist one anther... to make the world a better place, as you say, then it is altruism.

My point here is that we need to decide what this is before we can go about achieving it, and we do that by deciding what the point of it all is, and what the personality of the Source is (but you've already said that it has none). So then, why bother? Doesn't this negate the concept of anyone being "spiritually advanced"? Isn't this basically validating that we "Do What We Wilt" without regard to any spiritual Law other than that (and man-made Law as well). Again I have to say that doing anything for anyone else is illusion, according to this ideal. Get what you can now, cus its all we got. This means that no amount of studying anything for any reason other than personal power is valid. Its a total justification of being fully and completely evil. See where this leads?

[chowderpope]

This thread is a total clusterfudge. I certainly don't feel that my reality has been checked.

[inMalkuth]

Sorry if its confusing to you, I will try to keep it more simple next time.