The Tree of Life

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Where the ToL extends across the landscape (meridian system) the Tree may face into the Earth or to the stars.

My limited observation is that where the Tree faces downwards, the humans tend to be introspective and not so active in the global community.

Occasionally such a downwards Tree can turn over.

One such event was about 1990 in New Zealand. The downward tree (there is a trick to drawing it on the map of NZ) turned over quite slowly as the Queen visited various sephira cities. For part of that I was following a day or two behind her in a campervan and had a close look.

After 1990 NZ became much more active in global politics.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Omnicentrik wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:54 pm As for the third premise, technically there is no such thing as "acausal" in my understanding. If first mover, as you term it, initiates a causal chain, then that is the cause.
That's probably the one thing most worth considering in all of this, but since the "first mover" IS time - the beginning and end of it. There may as well be an attempt at some distinction between all of the parts that comprise eternity(beyond time). I believe it was shortly after this thread that I began using the "self-begotten" terminology which could be thought of as aspect of the primary mover(or "unmoved mover"). Application of terminology referencing concepts outside of time such as negative existence, nothing, acausal, or self-begotten are largely undefined and more or less synonymous with one another.

You might think of "acausal" AS "first mover", but it's the enigma of cause without cause which defies reason along with a finger pointing at it and fabrication of terminology saying: I see this, and I name it, but I can't really explicitly define it or know exactly what it is.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Spida wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2023 9:47 am....since the "first mover" IS time - the beginning and end of it. ...
It seems that while humans usually are conscious of a linear time system, that is not the case for some other species. They are conscious of all life cycle stages at the same time. Might be more efficient

Even humans these days can conceptualize parallel universes. Do those universes have parallel time? Could it be that the Cosmos developed parallel processing before Earth humans?

The site exopolitics.org reports on local time wars. Apparently friendly aliens have got fed up with fixing problems and have trained some humans to do that

Many humans dream across time lines.

More fundamentally the Hindu philosophy includes the Mahapralaya - the gap between Existence ceasing and a new Existence occurring.

At a lesser scale there is a gap between "incarnation" of our solar logos when this solar system does not exist. That is a lesser pralaya.

In this second version of the solar system our god is a god of love - actually of right relationship. Thus many species practice right relationship to promote learning in the solar system.


So the bigger question is why Earth humans are saddled with linear time - mostly

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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"More fundamentally the Hindu philosophy includes the Mahapralaya - the gap between Existence ceasing and a new Existence occurring."

Yeah that's the gist of what I was getting at. Although "gap"(or lacuna) is used figuratively for lack of a better term since this parameter functions in negation of time. In actuality it would be more akin to a rhythmic parameter. A song of existence of which all other melodies are a lesser reflection. Other microcosmic reflections(or continuums) of the macrocosmic existence that exhibit similar rhythm would be akin to breathing or the rhythm of the beating heart.

This is also reminiscent of fractal geometry where the smaller is representative of the larger.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Spida wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2023 9:47 am
Omnicentrik wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:54 pm As for the third premise, technically there is no such thing as "acausal" in my understanding. If first mover, as you term it, initiates a causal chain, then that is the cause.
That's probably the one thing most worth considering in all of this, but since the "first mover" IS time - the beginning and end of it. There may as well be an attempt at some distinction between all of the parts that comprise eternity(beyond time). I believe it was shortly after this thread that I began using the "self-begotten" terminology which could be thought of as aspect of the primary mover(or "unmoved mover"). Application of terminology referencing concepts outside of time such as negative existence, nothing, acausal, or self-begotten are largely undefined and more or less synonymous with one another.

You might think of "acausal" AS "first mover", but it's the enigma of cause without cause which defies reason along with a finger pointing at it and fabrication of terminology saying: I see this, and I name it, but I can't really explicitly define it or know exactly what it is.

The beginning of the ToL when I consider it is something absolutely literally infinite. So absolutely infinite, that nothing else exists, only itself. It cannot be contained nor limited in any way, in any possible world, even in any impossible world. This is indicated by the moniker "ein-sof" which literally means "never-ending" or "without-limit". There's an old story pondering people lost at sea. The sea is described this way:

"... מַיִם שֶׁאֵין לָהֶם סוֹף ... " Mayim ( water ) sh'Ein lahem Sof Literal translation: "[the] waters lacking limit to them." The implication of ein-sof as both the source of time, and also contributing itself to time ( monism ) would be that time is without any beginnings and also without any endings. Without any beginnings and without any endings is a very interesting concept. Without Any. Time is seperated by moments. A flow of time describes a sequence of moments. Each moment is distinguished from each other moment by significant events before it and after it. The signficant event before would be the beginning of the moment. The significant event after, would be the end of the moment. "Ein-Sof" has none of the these. It is without any beginnings and without any endings like an endless sea. A sea without limits.

Lacking any beginnings and lacking any endings means there is no longer a plurality of moments. There is only one endless, limitless, moment. Time is no longer flowing. All events are concurrent. Everything and nothing is "now". This, imo, helps to resolve the difficulty of an acausal existence. It's not that there is no cause and effect. It's that both the cause and the effect are occuring simultaneously. Also from this principle comes a plausible explanation for divination practice.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Ziran wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:13 pm The beginning of the ToL when I consider it is something absolutely literally infinite. So absolutely infinite, that nothing else exists, only itself. It cannot be contained nor limited in any way, in any possible world, even in any impossible world. This is indicated by the moniker "ein-sof" which literally means "never-ending" or "without-limit". There's an old story pondering people lost at sea. The sea is described this way:

"... מַיִם שֶׁאֵין לָהֶם סוֹף ... " Mayim ( water ) sh'Ein lahem Sof Literal translation: "[the] waters lacking limit to them." The implication of ein-sof as both the source of time, and also contributing itself to time ( monism ) would be that time is without any beginnings and also without any endings. Without any beginnings and without any endings is a very interesting concept. Without Any. Time is seperated by moments. A flow of time describes a sequence of moments. Each moment is distinguished from each other moment by significant events before it and after it. The signficant event before would be the beginning of the moment. The significant event after, would be the end of the moment. "Ein-Sof" has none of the these. It is without any beginnings and without any endings like an endless sea. A sea without limits.

Lacking any beginnings and lacking any endings means there is no longer a plurality of moments. There is only one endless, limitless, moment. Time is no longer flowing. All events are concurrent. Everything and nothing is "now". This, imo, helps to resolve the difficulty of an acausal existence. It's not that there is no cause and effect. It's that both the cause and the effect are occuring simultaneously. Also from this principle comes a plausible explanation for divination practice.

At the most fundamental core of all this you can go either one of two ways(a fork in the road) and regardless of which way you go you're going to end up with a paradoxical absurdity(truth transcending reason). If you believe the law of parsimony is relevant then you might employ that as one of your tools in deciding which way to go - it is a thought process containing several facets.

Saying that "cause and effect" are concurrent might also be like saying that neither one exists? At the deepest root you have the Ein which is nothing, but "nothing" is a bit ambiguous. I could say it is the absence of space and time yet there is something magically ineffable that remains or else nothing could ever come from it.

When you introduce the Soph with the Ein(the Ein Soph), now you are reiterating this paradoxically magical concept in formulating that there is no limit(Soph) to this nothing(Ein) and that it is this Ein Soph that is eternal and never changes "For I the eternal have never changed.".

Now I equate God(the self-begotten) with the limitless light that emerges from this Ein Soph which is the beginning and eventually the end of time "I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.".

So when you remove(or collapse) the dimension of time, in lieu of saying that "Everything and nothing is now" you might instead say that there is only the existence of a single moment, an eternal moment "And all of the former things will pass away.".

The above needn't be viewed as some hopeless dismal concept either; it isn't. It's just pondering an absolute truth in whatever form it happens to take.

I'm not really one to be quoting passages from the Bible either but there are times when it just seems convenient.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Thank you for the reply. I appreciate the feedback.
Spida wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2023 7:07 pm Saying that "cause and effect" are concurrent might also be like saying that neither one exists?
From my point of view, the events exist. Since time isn't flowing, and there is no division of moments, the cause is ongoing and the effect is ongoing. I am always and forver typing these words. Each button is currently being pressed. And that pressing never ends. Zooming in, each moment that is included in the action of pressing a key on the keyboard is also ongoing. Simultaneously, the letter is always being produced. Always and forever. There's a model of this idea called "block time" which I think is good. It's in the category of "eternalism". I can go find it, if you're interested. There's also a mention of it on Stanford University's philosophy website in the article about immutability, if I recall. They are contrasting immutability with impassability.
At the deepest root you have the Ein which is nothing, but "nothing" is a bit ambiguous. I could say it is the absence of space and time yet there is something magically ineffable that remains or else nothing could ever come from it.
I agree, it cannot be the deepest root.
When you introduce the Soph with the Ein(the Ein Soph), now you are reiterating this paradoxically magical concept in formulating that there is no limit(Soph) to this nothing(Ein) and that it is this Ein Soph that is eternal and never changes "For I the eternal have never changed.".
I just consider it in a different sequence, but, that sequence is all happening simultaneously. I've discussed this with others, and usually we end up agreeing that we're basically saying the same thing. Basically.
Now I equate God(the self-begotten) with the limitless light that emerges from this Ein Soph which is the beginning and eventually the end of time "I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.".
Understood.
So when you remove(or collapse) the dimension of time, in lieu of saying that "Everything and nothing is now" you might instead say that there is only the existence of a single moment, an eternal moment "And all of the former things will pass away.".
I see it in from the opposite perspective. Nothing ever dies, nothing is destroyed. Perhaps it is forgotten, but it can be recalled. This is the "fuel", imo.
The above needn't be viewed as some hopeless dismal concept either; it isn't. It's just pondering an absolute truth in whatever form it happens to take.

I'm not really one to be quoting passages from the Bible either but there are times when it just seems convenient.
~shrugs~ I see nothing wrong with it.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Negative Existence : Potential : Positive Existence


Negative Existence, Potential, and Potential Existence

When we talk about negative existence we are talking about things that do not exist but that have the potential to exist - potential existence. This potential is virtually infinite and it exists within the Ein Soph.


Positive Existence

When we talk about 'positive existence' we are talking about this "potential" that has begun to manifest - we have the Yin/Yang here at a most fundamental root(negative/positive existence).

When you talk about occurrences within this framework(concurrently or otherwise) and pertinent to the negative existence, you are talking about 'ideas' or the potentiality of these "occurrences" in lieu of the actuality(or manifesting) of these "ideas".


Parallel Universes

This talk of "concurrent happenings" does appear reminiscent of the manifesting of parallel universes however, although this would manifest within a positive existence. I would assume that once the singularity begins its expansion/manifesting that virtually anything would be possible.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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One of the most important principles, imo, is the inherent duality / polarity in absolutely everything ( including nothing ) with only one exception. This polarity is not only expressed in attribute valence but also in simultaneity. Everything has a partner. I have not established all of these partnerships, but I am confident that this is a universal law, again, with only one exception.

From the finite perspective, when I consider the negative-existence, it is plural. There are 2 types of negative existence in a partnership of micro/macro. From these two are spawned, like you said, nearly limitless negations. I agree that they are included in Ein Soph. But they are also omni-present. Normally omni-presence is considered only from the infinite prespective. However, the negative existences, plural, all of them, are omni-present even from the finite perspective. This is because everything is defined by "what-it-is-not", with only one exception. Because of this, the negative existences are a remarkable opportunity. Many ( all? ) mystical traditions explore this.

From the finite perspective ( not concurrent ):
Ein Soph >>> Keter >>> ToL-Descending >>> ToL-Ascending >>> ToL-Descending >>> ToL-Ascending >>> ToL-Descending >>> ToL-Ascending ... ad infinitum

One of the greatest secrets I have learned so far is that there are 2 trees. One is descending, the other one ascending. First it descends, then it ascends, then it repeats. This should have been obvious to me, but, I needed to be taught. As it is below, so it is above. Stevie knows... there's an all knowing "mirror-in-the-sky". Everything is contained in it, with only one exception. The only part that is slightly confusing about this, is, keter seems to be excluded from the ToL. But it isn't. The infinte chain of emanations, includes keter as malchut from the previous link in the chain. It's just that there is an initial keter which is different than all the others.

These two trees, descending first for the purpose of the following ascent, produce the infamous merkavah, the divine chariot. The ToL-descending is in the form of a chain of negating emanations. These are the negative-existences, at least, from my current understanding and from a finite perspective. As the ToL-descends a mystic can explore other-worlds in the domain of what-isn't-but-could-be. I think, but, I'm not sure, this explains what Crowely is drawn to and seeking in the the grades of descent terminating with Chrononzon. He is stopping there because, ascending with the processional out of the other-worlds is how rules and laws are being established / composed.

Departing from the finite perspective, approaching the infinite, all of the existences, both the positive and all the negative, past, present, and future, are concurrent and omni-present. These are the many-worlds, nothing is omitted, it is literally all inclusive. That is how I interpret the words "parallel universes".

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Existence seems quite involved with pattern/function repetition; this includes but is not limited to fractal geometry. Some of these patterns can be traced back to the dawn of time, and even before. If you discover some of these patterns then you are resolving some of the mysteries of existence via analogy which provides a more solid footing than formulating ideas without substantial correlation, but I'm not saying that's what you're doing here. I don't think I've really spent sufficient time absorbing enough of your content being fairly busy with life in general. I'm usually more eager to write than read when I come on here, but of course I do both.

But these patterns, like the rhythm of a beating heart, the ebb and flow of things like 'breathing'(the tides). These are very concrete and substantial phenomena as they have divine source that can be linked to other prior phenomena regressing throughout the eons of time until regression is no more.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Spida wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:33 pm ... formulating ideas without substantial correlation, but I'm not saying that's what you're doing here. ... I'm usually more eager to write than read when I come on here, but of course I do both.
Thanks for letting me know. I am aware that what I'm posting does not sync up with what is, forgive me, conventional among occultists. I come from a different lineage. But we share common ancestry and many concepts.

Big picture, I think it's good to bring diverse content here. Hopefully you don't feel I'm invasive. Just sharing what I've learned about the Tree of Life.
But these patterns, like the rhythm of a beating heart, the ebb and flow of things like 'breathing'(the tides). These are very concrete and substantial phenomena as they have divine source that can be linked to other prior phenomena regressing throughout the eons of time until regression is no more.
Agreed! 100%. I am talking about syncopation. What's happening in the negative spaces. The deep groove. It speaks volumes to me.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Ziran wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 7:04 pm Big picture, I think it's good to bring diverse content here. Hopefully you don't feel I'm invasive. Just sharing what I've learned about the Tree of Life...

Agreed! 100%. I am talking about syncopation. What's happening in the negative spaces. The deep groove. It speaks volumes to me...
No you're definitely not "invasive". Diversity is a good thing, and the more activity here the better. There was this one guy from a while back that used to plaster random music videos and nonsense all over the place and that was invasive but you're definitely not that.

I believe I've had some thoughts a few years ago similar to some of what you're saying, but my current model has more or less formulated itself away from that, and I even recall other occultists saying similar.

"The deep groove". I'm sure I'll be getting back to more of that momentarily, and I think "syncopation" is good terminology. I haven't used it myself, but I like it.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Ziran,

How exactly do you envision the tree of life commencing, unfolding, and progressing geometrically in an actual cosmological environment? Keeping in mind of course that this process is without beginning or end.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Ziran wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:13 pm Lacking any beginnings and lacking any endings means there is no longer a plurality of moments. There is only one endless, limitless, moment. Time is no longer flowing. All events are concurrent. Everything and nothing is "now". This, imo, helps to resolve the difficulty of an acausal existence. It's not that there is no cause and effect. It's that both the cause and the effect are occuring simultaneously. Also from this principle comes a plausible explanation for divination practice.

I feel as if you are mixing time with non-time in fabrication of some 'strange brew'. Time is very important here because without time nothing happens, but we are also aware of an emergence from this non-time paradox where time stops but then 'springs' back. At the point where time stops completely there are no events except the re-emergence of time which is just another iteration of an eternal sequence.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Spida wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 3:43 am
Ziran wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:13 pm Lacking any beginnings and lacking any endings means there is no longer a plurality of moments. There is only one endless, limitless, moment. Time is no longer flowing. All events are concurrent. Everything and nothing is "now". This, imo, helps to resolve the difficulty of an acausal existence. It's not that there is no cause and effect. It's that both the cause and the effect are occuring simultaneously. Also from this principle comes a plausible explanation for divination practice.

I feel as if you are mixing time with non-time in fabrication of some 'strange brew'. Time is very important here because without time nothing happens, but we are also aware of an emergence from this non-time paradox where time stops but then 'springs' back. At the point where time stops completely there are no events except the re-emergence of time which is just another iteration of an eternal sequence.
I don't have a "non-time" in the model I'm describing. Maybe this will help? From my perspective, oonly speaking for myself, there is only one which is absolutely literally infinite, and I am not it. I am finite. I cannot escape that limitation. There might be parts of me that infinite in certain ways, but I do not condier myself absolutley literally infinite in a way where time can stop flowing for me. I can slow down time, I can speed up time from my perspective. I can approach the inifinite. But I can never achieve it. That's me. It's only this mysterious acausal-nameless-formless-ness which is absolutley literally infinite. The "source".

What I tried to describe earlier, was an infinite chain, ( technially a multi-stranded rope to accomodate parallel universes ) At the top of the chain is the source which is acausal. There time is not flowing and everything is concurrent. But as soon as there is a form, as soon as there is the will to create, then time is flowing from thatt point onward in the chain / rope / fabric of reality.

That's what I'm trying to say. There is not "no-time". There is concurrence at the very tippy top. A finite being can approach it, but never acheive it.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Spida wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 3:16 am Ziran,

How exactly do you envision the tree of life commencing, unfolding, and progressing geometrically in an actual cosmological environment? Keeping in mind of course that this process is without beginning or end.
Apologies, I saw the posts out of order. I'll get to this one tomorrow.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Ziran wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:12 am What I tried to describe earlier, was an infinite chain, ( technially a multi-stranded rope to accomodate parallel universes ) At the top of the chain is the source which is acausal. There time is not flowing and everything is concurrent. But as soon as there is a form, as soon as there is the will to create, then time is flowing from thatt point onward in the chain / rope / fabric of reality.

That's what I'm trying to say. There is not "no-time". There is concurrence at the very tippy top. A finite being can approach it, but never acheive it.

Yes, I understand what you are describing. You are describing a sort of static infinite record that contains all possibilities, but in lieu of this concept existing in actuality, does it not make more sense and seem more reasonable that it should instead exist in potentiality?

In actuality contemporary cosmology states that space and time had a beginning, so, in the absence of those the question becomes what 'existences' are possible? I believe that consciousness(or God) can exist in the absence of space(a singularity) but cannot exist in the absence of time - nothing can(paradoxical).

Consciousness may formulate things in the absence of space. Do your thoughts require space or create space? A lesser reflection of the way in which the primordial consciousness creates space is in the way our own consciousness subconsciously creates a dimensional dreamscape - same idea lesser power.

My ideology does tend to continue evolving over time and perhaps it is possible that I do not have a general resolution to all things(and none) as I might think, but it seems as though you might be putting the cart before the horse here.

I don't see how what you are describing can have any actual existence other than as a thought, and while the formulating of thoughts do not appear reliant upon any pre-existing space the same cannot be said of time.

Maybe it's possible your idea may have validity but it may be the placement in conjunction with the description that is inaccurate. These are just my own thoughts, and I'll continue perusing what you have written and continue to write here.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Spida wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:33 am Yes, I understand what you are describing. You are describing a sort of static infinite record that contains all possibilities, but in lieu of this concept existing in actuality, does it not make more sense and seem more reasonable that it should instead exist in potentiality?
The past and the present are not potentiality. And the negations of the past and the present are not potentiality. Hopefully we can agree here?

What was, What is, What wasn't, and What isn't, are not potential.

That leaves future events some of which are "locked in", and some of them are not.
In actuality contemporary cosmology states that space and time had a beginning, so, in the absence of those the question becomes what 'existences' are possible? I believe that consciousness(or God) can exist in the absence of space(a singularity) but cannot exist in the absence of time - nothing can(paradoxical).
The author is outside the time-line of the book they are composing.
Consciousness may formulate things in the absence of space. Do your thoughts require space or create space? A lesser reflection of the way in which the primordial consciousness creates space is in the way our own consciousness subconsciously creates a dimensional dreamscape - same idea lesser power.
I agree 100%, and more :)

Empty Space Isn't Empty, And Quantum Researchers Now Have Direct Evidence - discovery.com
https://www.discovery.com/science/Empty ... t-Evidence
My ideology does tend to continue evolving over time and perhaps it is possible that I do not have a general resolution to all things(and none) as I might think, but it seems as though you might be putting the cart before the horse here.
My method was, as you wrote. I started with a theory. A common theological position. The theory, like all theories is a model. It has merit if it has explanatory power. Over the years, applying the theory works, and explains a lot. When I say "works", I simply mean practical. Everyday common magic. Lifting a person's spirits. Listening to a person's problems and giving them good advice. Connecting with others on a deep meaningful level. Knowing oneself, understanding the world, the wisdom to predict potential problems and avoid them, etc...

When I first learned about the sephirot, the most immediate benefit was in my interpersonal relationships. As I explored further and deeper, in myself and others, there were some pitfalls. It wasn't all smooth sailing. One of the reasons for this, I think, is that these are foundational principles. As a person learns about them they are reflected everywhere. This can be overwhelming. It was extremely overwhelming for me. But I had an established religious practice and community which grounded me and supported me. I have let go of that religious practice at this point in my life for various reasons. It is an anchor. But looking back, that anchor was useful for staying grounded.

After having convinced myself that the theological model I had been taught had practical use, and over the course of decades not found any counter-examples which defeated it, I started exploring other traditions. I wanted to see if others had different methods of modeling reality. I had put down my religious anchor, and I wanted to explore. To learn, but not necessarily to do, if that makes sense. What I found didn't resonate deeply with me. Everything I found was already included in the model I had previously been working with.

And that's the way it's been going ever since. I keep learning and exploring, and I will happily adjust my point of view as new info is learned and new experiences are encountered. But everything so far has been congruent with the tradition I was taught. And more evidence supporting it seems to discovered all the time.

For example, in my tradition it's known, there is no "empty-space". I didn't officially know that it was "scientifiic" until this morning. I read your post. Then I searched, and poof. A list of articles all saying the same thing. This happens to me all the time. And it's been happening for decades. I admit, freely, that having confidence like this based on "I haven't encountered anything which defeats it" is silly if the source of the theory is traditional theology. But I'm also including the trend of consistently increasing evidence in support over a significant span of time. ( from my perspective )
I don't see how what you are describing can have any actual existence other than as a thought, and while the formulating of thoughts do not appear reliant upon any pre-existing space the same cannot be said of time.

Maybe it's possible your idea may have validity but it may be the placement in conjunction with the description that is inaccurate. These are just my own thoughts, and I'll continue perusing what you have written and continue to write here.
I agree. When considering the ultimate absolute source of all reality, there is very little that can be said about it. The hindu have a nice way of putting it into words when considering Brahman Nirguna: "neti-neti" "not-this-not-this". From my perspective, it's a little different. The "source" is "expressing itself". The expression can be known, the source cannot. But it can be understood, and this leads to wisdom. And that's why in the sephirot diagrams, daat is in a dotted circle.

Going back to the hindu model, this "expression" of it "Self" ( capital S ) is an emanation which is both transcendant and immanent simultaneously, and it is easiest to be conceptualized / comprehended in the human mind as the "thoughts of God". But when this "source" "thinks" something, it is creating and simultaneously uncreating.

It can be comprehended, but not apprehended. Understood, but not known. One can stalk it and follow the tracks, but will never capture it. The ancient trackers were deeply spritiual, brilliant individuals. Becoming a a tracker was the first step to becoming a shaman. Tracking is learning to apprreciate and trust syncopation. Believeing the unseen.

Since the only thing that can be known about the source is the expression, the way it is expressing it "Self", and these expressions are "thoughts", then it makes sense to describe it in terms of only existing in thought. And that''s precisely what you said.

"I don't see how what you are describing can have any actual existence other than as a thought."
Last edited by Ziran on Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Spida wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 3:16 am Ziran,

How exactly do you envision the tree of life commencing, unfolding, and progressing geometrically in an actual cosmological environment? Keeping in mind of course that this process is without beginning or end.
This is complicated, naturally. It's the subject of books, not forum posts. And, to be honest I have never seen it written in any 1 specific place. Technically it's never supposed to be written. Although, typical in my tradition, immediately following the rule are exceptions. [grin]

Based on the conversation we're having, I'm not sure that answering this at this moment makes sense. And I've been pondering where to begin. I think it's best to begin with vessels and the body/soul dynamic. Those are the building blocks for reality, and those are the sephirot.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Ziran wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 3:49 pm The past and the present are not potentiality.
The past existed as potential at the beginning of time, but you appear to believe that time does not require a beginning in order to progress forward. The present does contain varying potential depending upon how choices manifest themselves.

This infinite "record of time" doesn't seem compatible with the arrow of time moving forward. Time needs a beginning. If on the other hand you are talking about various manifestations of universes(or timelines) within an eternal construct, that's different.

Universes or timelines within eternity are separated by lacunas. You can conceive of the infinite regression of these but they cannot be traversed physically due the non-existence of spacetime between them.

You can physically regress to the Ain Soph but no farther; farther is only a mental concept, a thought of once was, but there will always exist the potential for what once was to be again.

Ziran wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 3:49 pm And the negations of the past and the present are not potentiality. Hopefully we can agree here?
The Ain Soph negates everything - it acts as a resetting mechanism.

Maybe some of what you're describing can be summed up in a single word: eternity, but eternity is composed of that which is, and that which is not, or positive and negative existence. Positive existence manifests a virtually infinite array of things and negative existence is the total absence of all those things.

It's like you are describing eternity without the gaps between existences which results in a physicality of infinite regression but you believe that doesn't matter and that the arrow of time may still progress forward, or you are just manifesting this abstract concept that cannot have any real existence other than in your own mind.

Some of what I said relates to some of what you are saying and some of it doesn't.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Ziran wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:02 pm Empty Space Isn't Empty, And Quantum Researchers Now Have Direct Evidence - discovery.com
I never said space was empty. I was talking about negation of space. This negation and creation of space not only aligns with Qabalah but also with some of the most renown cosmological theories of our time as well as the "singularity" Hawking was always going on about.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Part of the problem is that being the four-dimensional creatures we are, we tend to think more in terms of infinity than negation. It's just the way our brains our wired by default. We can observe that space exists so we conclude that it must be infinite, and if not, then what would be at the end of it? More space? No, this type of thinking is literally the polar opposite of the truth and leads to fallacious concepts and theories.

I believe M-theory also makes reference to a "bulk" in which the multiverse resides, and I believe that this bulk is also thought to be infinite - another fallacy.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Ziran wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 3:49 pm When considering the ultimate absolute source of all reality, there is very little that can be said about it. The Hindu have a nice way of putting it into words when considering Brahman Nirguna: "neti-neti" "not-this-not-this".
This is correct. It basically says that anything you can imagine about the "absolute", Ein Soph, most fundamental root, or negative existence is that it is not that, although this is more for the layman and the more time you spend on it the more you come to terms with what it actually is - absolutely nothing in every sense of the term, however, it should be noted that there is indeed something 'magical' pertaining to this "neti-neti" or else nothing could ever come from it; existence would be forever doomed to an eternal and absolute state of nothingness, although as they say, ignorance is bliss, even though this is obviously not the case.

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Spida wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2023 10:32 am Part of the problem is that being the four-dimensional creatures we are, we tend to think more in terms of infinity than negation. It's just the way our brains our wired by default. We can observe that space exists so we conclude that it must be infinite, and if not, then what would be at the end of it? More space? No, this type of thinking is literally the polar opposite of the truth and leads to fallacious concepts and theories.

I believe M-theory also makes reference to a "bulk" in which the multiverse resides, and I believe that this bulk is also thought to be infinite - another fallacy.
Believe it or not, I feel like I understand your point of view. Like I said, it's not that I deny any of what you're saying, but I might use different words for it. We've been talking quite a bit about negations from various different perspectives. Hopefully I've demonstarted at least a modicum of understanding of the concept and how it works. But, I also see it from a different perspective, which I do not consider any less true than the framework you are calling "truth". Mahayana Buddhism considers 2 truths. I like that. I'm not a buddhist, but, their 2 truths resonate strongly with how I understand reality.

Further, I feel like I've answered your challenges honestly and correctly without contradiction or fallacious reasoning. I've defended my postion in the past, although, none so far have lifted the discourse to this level. For that, I sincerely thank you. It is a genuine pleasure. It is normal and natural for me to hold the unpopular position. I revel in it. If someone says, "you can't, or that's impossible", I am triggered in the very best possible way. ;D "I can't? Hah! Watch this!"

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Re: The Tree Of Life

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Spida wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2023 11:00 am This is correct. It basically says that anything you can imagine about the "absolute", Ein Soph, most fundamental root, or negative existence is that it is not that, although this is more for the layman and the more time you spend on it the more you come to terms with what it actually is - absolutely nothing in every sense of the term, however, it should be noted that there is indeed something 'magical' pertaining to this "neti-neti" or else nothing could ever come from it; existence would be forever doomed to an eternal and absolute state of nothingness, although as they say, ignorance is bliss, even though this is obviously not the case.
The hindu are interesting. Especially if they are compared to the ancient egyptians. The egyptians required their physical corpses, the vessel, to be meticulously embalmed and preserved in order for the soul to continue in the afterlife. As it is below, so it is above. The hindu cremeate their bodies, the vessel, nullifying it, for the purpose of freeing the soul from the prison of the body. The egyptians favored attachment, the hindu favored detachment. The egyptians treasure the body, the hindu despise it. Polar opposites, if I were to choose, I'd keep the body and temporarily detach as needed. But that's me.

I feel the same way about their neti-neti. I don't have a problem attaching to what I am calling "the source" intellectually or emotionally. I prefer it. They prefer detachment? Neti-neti? OK, I can do that as needed. But if the "source" is expressing it "Self", I think it would be foolish for me to deny that.

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