Fellow occultists,
I've often heard it said by some occultists, particularly those operating somewhere in the vast expands of the Chaos magic meta-paradigm, that doubt or weakness of belief (also known as subconscious resistance) has a harmful effect on the efficacy and consequently, success of a magical operation. Now, I agree to this, and it is generally considered to be true that a weakness of belief means a weakness of magical effect, due to the all-importance of belief in Chaos magical theory (cf. Carroll's magical formula in Liber Kaos: M = G x L(1-A)(1-R) | Pm = P - P x M 1/(1/-p)), but what I'd like to challenge here is how disastrously important doubt can be in the whole process of sending forth your magical will.
Recently, I've heard someone claim that a mere doubt cancels everything in a magical operation, and dooms your effort to be in vain. I think that kind of all-or-nothing attitude towards magic does not give it justice, and causes undue stress on the shoulders of students and neophytes of the Occult.
Crowley famously said in his Book 4: Magic in Theory and Practice (and I paraphrase) that magic was an act done in accordance to will unassuaged by the lust for result, much like a man blowing his nose. Yet, with all due respect for the Master Therion, my humble experience has not shown that success in magic depends on acting spontaneously, and I find this definition somewhat tedious at times. What is it supposed to mean? That you should perform magic without really desiring to see a result?
My main argument here is that I don't think, based on what I've experienced, that magic is as "fragile" as some of the masters have made it into, and that the dynamics of magical will are really more rigorous than they have been portrayed by many in the past. I believe that if the magical act was initially made with enough belief and intent, it is difficult to stop it from having some effect in the world by "cancelling it with doubt."
What do you think, and do you corroborate?
On the Dynamics of Magical Will/Energy
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Madavascus
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On the Dynamics of Magical Will/Energy
Incipit Chaos!
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Clockwork Ghost
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Re: On the Dynamics of Magical Will/Energy
Im personally of the school of thinking that doubt weakens the ability to see the effects from ones magical actions. This said, I also believe that it depends on the paradigm of magic youre operating within, as some forms of magic circumvent the problem through the use of belief boosters, such as fetishes, idols and icons that allow the magician to believe in the power of a third party over the power of themselves.
Open handed forms of magic, such as chaos magic for instance, teach that belief is the core principal of magic - belief affects change of state, so its only natural that it follows that doubt weakens that process. If you dont need to believe in your magic, like if youre so certain in your own power to affect change for instance, or in the power of a third party or a magical device in your possession, then belief doesnt come into it. I'm sure that this process affects much more than just magic, and forms a common thread with other esoteric traditions such as divine visitation and assistance. If you dont believe strongly in your chosen god or goddess then their ability to assist you is weakened also, a strong suggestion that such divine forces are merely stored in the heads of their followers and not external to them.
What we therefore need do is to remove the element of belief and replace it with faith - either faith in ourselves or in an object or force external to us. Faith differs from belief in that true faith isnt questioned, the thing that we have faith in is assumed to be present in the same way we know that gravity is there, or that our heads are attached to our bodies - we could in fact say that we have faith in gravity or in genetics, for instance. Faith has however become a bit of a dirty word in the time of atheism, as it smacks of religious fundamentalism, but it means so much more.
Coming back to the original question then, I personally feel that belief is an important factor in magic, but it neednt be a barrier between magic working and not working - its application can definitely strengthen the effects of a ritual, but as many rituals will show outcomes that differ from the original planned outcome anyway, and its up to us to interpret success or failure based not on a rigid criteria but on looser interpretation of what we were setting out to achieve, belief in magical efficaciousness isnt as important as the ability to interpret results with an open mind.
Open handed forms of magic, such as chaos magic for instance, teach that belief is the core principal of magic - belief affects change of state, so its only natural that it follows that doubt weakens that process. If you dont need to believe in your magic, like if youre so certain in your own power to affect change for instance, or in the power of a third party or a magical device in your possession, then belief doesnt come into it. I'm sure that this process affects much more than just magic, and forms a common thread with other esoteric traditions such as divine visitation and assistance. If you dont believe strongly in your chosen god or goddess then their ability to assist you is weakened also, a strong suggestion that such divine forces are merely stored in the heads of their followers and not external to them.
What we therefore need do is to remove the element of belief and replace it with faith - either faith in ourselves or in an object or force external to us. Faith differs from belief in that true faith isnt questioned, the thing that we have faith in is assumed to be present in the same way we know that gravity is there, or that our heads are attached to our bodies - we could in fact say that we have faith in gravity or in genetics, for instance. Faith has however become a bit of a dirty word in the time of atheism, as it smacks of religious fundamentalism, but it means so much more.
Coming back to the original question then, I personally feel that belief is an important factor in magic, but it neednt be a barrier between magic working and not working - its application can definitely strengthen the effects of a ritual, but as many rituals will show outcomes that differ from the original planned outcome anyway, and its up to us to interpret success or failure based not on a rigid criteria but on looser interpretation of what we were setting out to achieve, belief in magical efficaciousness isnt as important as the ability to interpret results with an open mind.
Re: On the Dynamics of Magical Will/Energy
For me, it's more about confidence and understanding than belief, though the these are related.
I don't fully believe in magic. I have intuitions and suspicions about it that lead me to practice, but I am not certain that any of it means anything outside my own mind (or, for that matter, that it's supposed to).
My level of belief is also subject to fluctuations, usually becoming slightly stronger while designing a spell, though not so much when working it.
However, most magic that I've attempted has worked exactly as intended. Why is this? In my paradigm, it's not because belief is the end-all-be-all, though it is important, but because it also involves understanding the subtle ways in which the forces of the universe must be manipulated to achieve the desired result. Personally, I allow myself to believe in the possibility wholeheartedly, but still embrace my doubts, and it seems to work out just fine.
I don't fully believe in magic. I have intuitions and suspicions about it that lead me to practice, but I am not certain that any of it means anything outside my own mind (or, for that matter, that it's supposed to).
My level of belief is also subject to fluctuations, usually becoming slightly stronger while designing a spell, though not so much when working it.
However, most magic that I've attempted has worked exactly as intended. Why is this? In my paradigm, it's not because belief is the end-all-be-all, though it is important, but because it also involves understanding the subtle ways in which the forces of the universe must be manipulated to achieve the desired result. Personally, I allow myself to believe in the possibility wholeheartedly, but still embrace my doubts, and it seems to work out just fine.
Re: On the Dynamics of Magical Will/Energy
Once you learn how to do magic, you lose all doubt about whether it will work or not because experience will have shown you that if you do such and such in such a way ... that you will always get a result. Always.
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Clockwork Ghost
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Re: On the Dynamics of Magical Will/Energy
Exactly, which is one of the reasons why learning one paradigm when you first begin is so important instead of just hopping around all over the place. I remember the first time I performed a ritual that actually worked and the feeling of 'wow, magic is actually real!' - was very trippy. [thumbup]pandora wrote:Once you learn how to do magic, you lose all doubt about whether it will work or not because experience will have shown you that if you do such and such in such a way ... that you will always get a result. Always.
Re: On the Dynamics of Magical Will/Energy
I would still be doubting about my magickal ability if it wasn't for the SKAVAN servitor, I'm still getting the hang of sigils and some servitors but man is it something awesome when you get to activate a servitor, and by accident. I think it's the critical moment when one get's to stop slacking in their work. [thumbup]
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Nahemah
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Re: On the Dynamics of Magical Will/Energy
Ooh,Skavan,that name takes me back a while,lol.
I remember the thread here about Skavan and Hitman being one of the users,along with some other OF old timers.
Linkback for those not familiar with this:
http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... lit=Skavan
I remember the thread here about Skavan and Hitman being one of the users,along with some other OF old timers.
Linkback for those not familiar with this:
http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... lit=Skavan
"He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel."
Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.
Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.
Re: On the Dynamics of Magical Will/Energy
"For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect." -AL I,40Madavascus wrote:
Crowley famously said in his Book 4: Magic in Theory and Practice (and I paraphrase) that magic was an act done in accordance to will unassuaged by the lust for result, much like a man blowing his nose. Yet, with all due respect for the Master Therion, my humble experience has not shown that success in magic depends on acting spontaneously, and I find this definition somewhat tedious at times. What is it supposed to mean? That you should perform magic without really desiring to see a result?
I refer you to Crowley's interpretation (Old Comment of the verse): "44. Recommends "non-attachment." Students will understand how in meditation the mind which attaches itself to hope of success is just as bound as if it were to attach itself to some base material idea. It is a bond and the aim is freedom."
To give an example of this a great student doesn't care about the outcome of what he makes on an exam. He does not "lust of the result" of making a high grade, but merely does the best he can for its own sake.
Love is the law, love under will.
Re: On the Dynamics of Magical Will/Energy
Giving this question some thought to this question, I am going use a slightly modified version of Meyers-Briggs personality types to see if this can shed light on the topic. In order to use Meyers-Briggs personalities, from a practical stand point, its better to view the 16 types as mind modes that a person goes in and out of to fit the environmental circumstances. What's relevant here are the J"judgement" mind modes, as opposed to the P "perceiving" mind modes. The ethereal element of belief, definitely belongs to the J mind mode. The power of the J mode depends on the degree of accuracy that a person has pre-conceptualized/visualized the situation to be addressed(the target). Assuming there is sufficient accuracy, then Belief then is imperative to perform the magical task in question.
On the other hand, many rotes (repetitively practiced sequence of physical/mental tasks) are much more effective, when they are timed to the right circumstances. This requires the P mode and consequently makes belief and the J mind mode counter productive. In order to really answer the question specific circumstances must be looked at first. give an example of a magical spell that you would like to cast, and we can work through the steps to figure out if belief is a beneficial part of the process.
On the other hand, many rotes (repetitively practiced sequence of physical/mental tasks) are much more effective, when they are timed to the right circumstances. This requires the P mode and consequently makes belief and the J mind mode counter productive. In order to really answer the question specific circumstances must be looked at first. give an example of a magical spell that you would like to cast, and we can work through the steps to figure out if belief is a beneficial part of the process.
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Nahemah
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Re: On the Dynamics of Magical Will/Energy
Hmm.
I am INTJ,hear me think! [rofl]
I score really high on consientiousness.
We are known as 'the system builders'.
I am INTJ,hear me think! [rofl]
I score really high on consientiousness.
I complete tasks to high precision levels and within time scales,I am efficiency in a box.On the other hand, many rotes (repetitively practiced sequence of physical/mental tasks) are much more effective, when they are timed to the right circumstances. This requires the P mode and consequently makes belief and the J mind mode counter productive.
We are known as 'the system builders'.
"He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel."
Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.
Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.
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Nahemah
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Re: On the Dynamics of Magical Will/Energy
Just for you guys,lol.Here is my OCEAN score on consientiousness,with facets.Scarily high....
Conscientiousness
This trait refers to the extent to which you prefer an organised, or a flexible, approach in life. Approximately 95% of respondents have a lower conscientiousness raw percentage than yours. From the way you answered the questions, you seem to describe yourself as someone who is a perfectionist. From your responses it appears that you prefer to plan everything to the last detail, which has consequently led to you being very successful and extremely reliable. From your responses it appears that more than most you enjoy seeing your long-term plans come to fruition.
Reflective question: How does being in an untidy environment make you feel?
Facets
(C1) Self-Efficacy: 99.2nd percentile. This facet refers to your ability to 'get things done'. You consider yourself both effective and successful in almost all that you attempt, both in tasks that you are familiar with and new ones also.
(C2) Orderliness: 92nd percentile. This facet includes how far you prefer order over flexibility. Organisation of your environment and schedule is very important to you. Each item has its place, and you feel less stressed out when things are tidy.
(C3) Dutifulness: 88th percentile. This facet includes your reliability. You place a very high value on fulfilling your promises and telling the truth. You always do what you say, and are both dependable and reliable. You are likely to follow even rules that you disagree with.
(C4) Achievement-Striving: 95th percentile. This facet includes your will to go beyond what is sufficient. You are very ambitious and set high standards for yourself in what you do. You work very hard to achieve success and are highly motivated. It may be that you neglect other aspects of your life.
(C5) Self-Discipline: 79th percentile. This facet includes your motivation to start and complete tasks. Importantly it is distinct from impulsiveness, which measures the impulse to do things that you do not want to do, whereas this facet measures your tendency to not do things that you do want to do.You are more motivated than other people, and so are able to begin tasks promptly and carry them through to completion, even if they are boring.
(C6) Cautiousness: 76th percentile. This facet includes the extent to which you think before acting. You think more than most before acting or saying anything. Usually you find this to be useful as it means that you make better decisions, but sometimes when you need to act quickly you can find it more difficult.
100%
50%
0%
The needing to act quickly thing,is balanced by other facets,later,but this is mostly highly accurate. [shock2]
Facet C1 C2 C3 C4 C5 C6
Aaaand,just for compare and contrast,my Barratt Impulsivity Scores:
Your answers were grouped into 10 overarching values, and then the importance that you gave to them was ranked to give the values that most motivate you.
The top three values that most strongly motivate you are...
#1 Self-Direction
You value being able to think your own thoughts and do your own actions.
#2 Hedonism
You value pleasure and personal gratification.
#3 Universalism
You value 'big' goals, exemplified by understanding and tolerance of all people and nature.
The other values in decreasing order of importance to you are...
#4 Stimulation
You value excitement and daring to do new things.
#5 Security
You value stability, safety, and harmony of society, relationships, and of yourself.
#6 Benevolence
You value the preservation and enhancement of the welfare of those that you are with.
#7 Achievement
You value competence and personal success.
#8 Conformity
You value actions that respect others and the norms of a good society.
#9 Tradition
You value respect and commitment to the customs and ideas that have served society well through history.
#10 Power
You value social status, prestige, and control over people and resources...
Conscientiousness
This trait refers to the extent to which you prefer an organised, or a flexible, approach in life. Approximately 95% of respondents have a lower conscientiousness raw percentage than yours. From the way you answered the questions, you seem to describe yourself as someone who is a perfectionist. From your responses it appears that you prefer to plan everything to the last detail, which has consequently led to you being very successful and extremely reliable. From your responses it appears that more than most you enjoy seeing your long-term plans come to fruition.
Reflective question: How does being in an untidy environment make you feel?
Facets
(C1) Self-Efficacy: 99.2nd percentile. This facet refers to your ability to 'get things done'. You consider yourself both effective and successful in almost all that you attempt, both in tasks that you are familiar with and new ones also.
(C2) Orderliness: 92nd percentile. This facet includes how far you prefer order over flexibility. Organisation of your environment and schedule is very important to you. Each item has its place, and you feel less stressed out when things are tidy.
(C3) Dutifulness: 88th percentile. This facet includes your reliability. You place a very high value on fulfilling your promises and telling the truth. You always do what you say, and are both dependable and reliable. You are likely to follow even rules that you disagree with.
(C4) Achievement-Striving: 95th percentile. This facet includes your will to go beyond what is sufficient. You are very ambitious and set high standards for yourself in what you do. You work very hard to achieve success and are highly motivated. It may be that you neglect other aspects of your life.
(C5) Self-Discipline: 79th percentile. This facet includes your motivation to start and complete tasks. Importantly it is distinct from impulsiveness, which measures the impulse to do things that you do not want to do, whereas this facet measures your tendency to not do things that you do want to do.You are more motivated than other people, and so are able to begin tasks promptly and carry them through to completion, even if they are boring.
(C6) Cautiousness: 76th percentile. This facet includes the extent to which you think before acting. You think more than most before acting or saying anything. Usually you find this to be useful as it means that you make better decisions, but sometimes when you need to act quickly you can find it more difficult.
100%
50%
0%
The needing to act quickly thing,is balanced by other facets,later,but this is mostly highly accurate. [shock2]
Facet C1 C2 C3 C4 C5 C6
Aaaand,just for compare and contrast,my Barratt Impulsivity Scores:
Your answers were grouped into 10 overarching values, and then the importance that you gave to them was ranked to give the values that most motivate you.
The top three values that most strongly motivate you are...
#1 Self-Direction
You value being able to think your own thoughts and do your own actions.
#2 Hedonism
You value pleasure and personal gratification.
#3 Universalism
You value 'big' goals, exemplified by understanding and tolerance of all people and nature.
The other values in decreasing order of importance to you are...
#4 Stimulation
You value excitement and daring to do new things.
#5 Security
You value stability, safety, and harmony of society, relationships, and of yourself.
#6 Benevolence
You value the preservation and enhancement of the welfare of those that you are with.
#7 Achievement
You value competence and personal success.
#8 Conformity
You value actions that respect others and the norms of a good society.
#9 Tradition
You value respect and commitment to the customs and ideas that have served society well through history.
#10 Power
You value social status, prestige, and control over people and resources...
"He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel."
Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.
Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.
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Nahemah
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- Location: Sunny Glasgow by the Clutha's side
Re: On the Dynamics of Magical Will/Energy
My point,in the rather rambly fashion above,is that one set of pschometric tests,taken in isolation can be misleading.
We have some topics on Psychometric testing somewhere.I 'll go dig them up shortly,I think we had some linkage in them,for self testing purposes.
Sorry,forgot to answer this too :
We have some topics on Psychometric testing somewhere.I 'll go dig them up shortly,I think we had some linkage in them,for self testing purposes.
Sorry,forgot to answer this too :
I find myself in agreement with you and I think the importance of the belief lies in/at the instance,or the exact moment of the casting,not in the time prior to,or afterwards.Act with authority,in that moment and the intent is sealed as you will it.My main argument here is that I don't think, based on what I've experienced, that magic is as "fragile" as some of the masters have made it into, and that the dynamics of magical will are really more rigorous than they have been portrayed by many in the past. I believe that if the magical act was initially made with enough belief and intent, it is difficult to stop it from having some effect in the world by "cancelling it with doubt."
"He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel."
Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.
Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.
Re: On the Dynamics of Magical Will/Energy
I agree with much of what was stated here but disagree with some. I haven't been practicing very long, about a few months actually but have achieved results.
First, I have the utmost respect for the systems, beliefs, paths that EVERYONE follows. but it's hard for me to convey my thoughts at times without reading as if I'm looking down on or disrespecting others. That is NOT my intention.
It was stated that someone recommended following one paradigm in the beginning. Some are able to do just that. Some of us are not.
My mind tends to work in a somewhat scientific manner and has to follow logic. Energy is logical to me. Using ones subconscious mind is logical to me. Energy transference is logical to me. Manipulating energy is logical. We do all that by the minute on a daily basis already. Believing in firm and repeated results based on this hypothesis is logical to me. [Here's a politically correct part that sounds disrespectful] Praying to Gods/Deities/Entites is illogical because to me they don't exist, thus I have little choice at this point in time but to follow Chaos and use what seems logical to me from those in other systems who went first.
Praying, asking, demanding a result from a God/Deity/etc would probably have a small result if I elected to try it. My trying to believe in something I find illogical will only create a negative influence and thus effect my goal in a dark fashion creating a poor result.
Another point that I would like to make regarding beliefs/personalities regards asking and demanding [expressing our will]. I firmly believe that when I am asking for something, I'm talking to a friend. I don't demand things from my friends. They are helping me so what gives me the right to believe I should demand anything? My friends show me respect and I reply in kind. I get very good results when I ask. When I try and demand something, I'm "kicked out" of my meditation. When I ask politely, I'm taken deeper and and "told", "it is done".
There are those of us who's personality/beliefs feel they have the right to demand therefore, they get results they expected to one degree or another. Someone such as myself tries and demands when my personality doesn't fit that mold on;y gets my teeth caved in.
Imho, things work for me and things work for you the reader based on how our minds work. If something seems logical to each of us, belief is already the foundation of the equation. Your ways are the correct way for you and my ways are the correct ways for me. If each of us were to examine ourselves and learn our own personalities, I firmly believe we would get better results from our endeavors.
First, I have the utmost respect for the systems, beliefs, paths that EVERYONE follows. but it's hard for me to convey my thoughts at times without reading as if I'm looking down on or disrespecting others. That is NOT my intention.
It was stated that someone recommended following one paradigm in the beginning. Some are able to do just that. Some of us are not.
My mind tends to work in a somewhat scientific manner and has to follow logic. Energy is logical to me. Using ones subconscious mind is logical to me. Energy transference is logical to me. Manipulating energy is logical. We do all that by the minute on a daily basis already. Believing in firm and repeated results based on this hypothesis is logical to me. [Here's a politically correct part that sounds disrespectful] Praying to Gods/Deities/Entites is illogical because to me they don't exist, thus I have little choice at this point in time but to follow Chaos and use what seems logical to me from those in other systems who went first.
Praying, asking, demanding a result from a God/Deity/etc would probably have a small result if I elected to try it. My trying to believe in something I find illogical will only create a negative influence and thus effect my goal in a dark fashion creating a poor result.
Another point that I would like to make regarding beliefs/personalities regards asking and demanding [expressing our will]. I firmly believe that when I am asking for something, I'm talking to a friend. I don't demand things from my friends. They are helping me so what gives me the right to believe I should demand anything? My friends show me respect and I reply in kind. I get very good results when I ask. When I try and demand something, I'm "kicked out" of my meditation. When I ask politely, I'm taken deeper and and "told", "it is done".
There are those of us who's personality/beliefs feel they have the right to demand therefore, they get results they expected to one degree or another. Someone such as myself tries and demands when my personality doesn't fit that mold on;y gets my teeth caved in.
Imho, things work for me and things work for you the reader based on how our minds work. If something seems logical to each of us, belief is already the foundation of the equation. Your ways are the correct way for you and my ways are the correct ways for me. If each of us were to examine ourselves and learn our own personalities, I firmly believe we would get better results from our endeavors.
"Health and wealth are my birthright, success my tool, kindness my standard."
Re: On the Dynamics of Magical Will/Energy
So you believe in magical energy, but not in spiritual entities?
My mind tends to work in a somewhat scientific manner and has to follow logic. Energy is logical to me. Using ones subconscious mind is logical to me. Energy transference is logical to me. Manipulating energy is logical. We do all that by the minute on a daily basis already. Believing in firm and repeated results based on this hypothesis is logical to me. [Here's a politically correct part that sounds disrespectful] Praying to Gods/Deities/Entites is illogical because to me they don't exist, thus I have little choice at this point in time but to follow Chaos and use what seems logical to me from those in other systems who went first.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"
- DDJ, Verse 27
"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"
- DDJ, Verse 27
"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett
Re: On the Dynamics of Magical Will/Energy
Rin wrote:So you believe in magical energy, but not in spiritual entities?
My mind tends to work in a somewhat scientific manner and has to follow logic. Energy is logical to me. Using ones subconscious mind is logical to me. Energy transference is logical to me. Manipulating energy is logical. We do all that by the minute on a daily basis already. Believing in firm and repeated results based on this hypothesis is logical to me. [Here's a politically correct part that sounds disrespectful] Praying to Gods/Deities/Entites is illogical because to me they don't exist, thus I have little choice at this point in time but to follow Chaos and use what seems logical to me from those in other systems who went first.
Yes and no. To me an entity is made up of the energy from someone be it myself or someone else. The someone else may be deceased or alive at some point in time but it is not an omnipotent energy. An entity that I create for a purpose has only enough "intelligence" to do as I direct it to do not much differently than a pc program or robot would. The energy I am composed of that is released after the death of my body does have intelligence and is able to reason no differently than I do now, thus I can choose to reincarnate or "take a break" for awhile. "Demons" I believe are something we create from our subconscious mind and they are subject to do what we in our minds expect them to do. We as humans can come up with some pretty horrific shit in our minds. The same would go for Gods/Deities. If I decided I needed a God/Deity to assist me with something, the God/Deity would be what I expect it to be because I created it in my mind and gave birth to it with my energy. I would also name it something that reflects my interpretation of it. Apollo for instance could help me with healing or seeking the truth from someone I mistrust.
At this point in time with my limited experience, this is what makes sense to me. Of course after I gain more experience, what I think now will assuredly change.
"Health and wealth are my birthright, success my tool, kindness my standard."