Chaos without the Darkness?

[Prometeo]

Hi,
I was thinking, Chaos magick seems to focus in darkness, iin Peter Carroll´s books there is much antinomianism. However, that´s not necessary to controlling the mind, exploring paradigms or controlling the subconscious. Are there Chaos groups or individuals who aren´t dark? Also, the dicotomy between Right Hand Path and Left Hand Path doesn´t seem satisfactory to me. In the Right Hand Path you abandon your needs, and in the Left Hand Path your ideals, however with any of these paths you are only satisfying a part of you and leaving the other part unsatisfied. It´s like Maslow´s pyramid, we aren´t just the top or the bottom. Are there Right Hand Path and Middle Hand Path Chaotes?

[DawningSun777]

That's a weird view of LHP vs RHP. It has to do with how you go about things, not the end goal. My end go l is very much more in line with unity with a deity than self deification (though this is severely over simplified). Generally, Luciferianism is considered LHP yet it is very focused on bettering all The species and advancing us socially. This a goal shared more with RHP religions.

[Zenick]

Well without getting in to a big debate about lhp/rhp. Yes there is both in chaos magic take a look at liber null there's info on both paths in there.Chaos magic main focuses is on results though and this tends to lean to physical results putting it into more often into the lhp but depends on the person.

[Prometeo]

Can you mix the paths or do you have to choose?

[DawningSun777]

Can you mix the paths or do you have to choose?

You can mix of course, at least from my LHP perspective. As I said, my goal is more RHP probably.

[Zenick]

Can you mix the paths or do you have to choose?

I'll have to say you have to answer your own question but here's some things that may help.

Take some time to think about what you think would happen if you mixed the two paths from your understanding now don't worry if your right or wrong just what you would believe. This should help coming up with your answer.

now that you have a good answer for you.

If the answer is yes then go at it.

If the answer is no don't forget your studying chaos magic and you have a perfect way to start practising belief shifting if you want to do both lol.

[Prometeo]

I think I was confusing RHP vs. LHP with White vs. Black magic. The first distinction is about the ego, and the other about virtue, morality and ethics.
The LHP and the RHP seem very similar except for the ego. Both to attain union with your God/Goddess or to become God you have to make your personality, mind and spirit perfect, otherwise you couldn´t reach your goal. The difference is that in one path you try to diminish your ego as much as posible, and in the other you feed it. I could do both paths one after the other, but not simultaneously.As I have a small ego, maybe the RHP is easier to me. However, society makes the LHP easier, big egos are rewarded.
In the other distinction, I am a nice guy and I´m closer to White magic. However, I wouldn´t like to take it to the extreme. If I have all my needs frustrated, because I can´t look for selfish ends, and in addition my life gets complicated because I have to offer the other cheek, eventually I would become bitter.
With the RHP/LHP, maybe I could make my ego dissappear but make people believe that I have a huge ego. And with the other category, I have to think what I want from life and what I would sacrifice or not.
I think that I´ll have to learn both about how I think and how other people think! I hope that spiritual work helps with this.

[Zenick]

That is exactly the type of answer I was looking for. The first spiritual work is to find your true self then follow it so you've already started on that now. [wink]

I would focus more on how you think and don't worry about others so much you will gain that from learning about yourself.

Honestly I wish there was more chaos magicians focus on the rhp as there is not enough who have gone this route and promoted it. I think it would greatly enrich chaos magic and magic in general.

As for the RHP/LHP path you really have to take a good look at what they mean to the person talking about it because there are so many different interpretations of it out there.

[Azrael]

Honestly, you shouldn't have needed to create a thread for this. Chaos Magick focuses on shifting your paradigm until you find one that works for you, and even then, changing your paradigm is perfectly fine. There is no set black or white magick, right or left hand path. It is all paradigms. All thoughts. Just explore and see what works for you, and then follow that.

It is very simple really.

[DawningSun777]

White and black magick? Hahaha, hold on, can't breathe...

Tell me, do you have pictures of these magicks providing empirical evidence of their colors?

[Zenick]

@Azrael Even though you have made valid points in your post it comes of very belittling. If I'm taking it the wrong way I'am sorry.

@DawningSun777 That post was not needed at all

Both of you I am sure have realized that a lot of people that come to this forum are very new to the subjects that are posted here and really are asking for help and advice. It would be far better for all if you would post your knowledge of the topic instead of making fun of person who doesn't know something about it. Try putting yourself in the place of the person your responding to before posting.

[DawningSun777]

There's a difference between being mean and making a point. This problem extends beyond occultism into the real world: it's politically incorrect to believe in silly questions. I don't care. The whole white and black magick thing is absolutely ridiculous, it must be learnt immediately. There's no argument to be made that someone believing in such concepts has even the slightest understanding of occultism. I apologize if it seemed rude, thank your gods you never had to deal with any of the big wigs like Crowley, LaVey, or Aquino.

[Zenick]

There's a difference between being mean and making a point. This problem extends beyond occultism into the real world: it's politically incorrect to believe in silly questions. I don't care. The whole white and black magick thing is absolutely ridiculous, it must be learnt immediately. There's no argument to be made that someone believing in such concepts has even the slightest understanding of occultism. I apologize if it seemed rude, thank your gods you never had to deal with any of the big wigs like Crowley, LaVey, or Aquino.

I understand completely why you posted what you did but I'm pretty sure a lot of other people wouldn't.I'll never understand being PC but respecting others is always a good thing. It just would have been nice to see an explanation to why instead of making fun of someone's personal understanding.
As you said one should learn early but one learns better in comfortable surroundings and with clear explanations and reasons.
I didn't mean to ruffle you feathers but point out how your post could be taken the wrong way. I'm sorry for that.
As for Crowley he himself used the terms a fair bit though in a bit different context then the OP. LaVey really didn't practice magic and I don't know anything about Aquino.

[Zenick]

As this thread kinda went off and I have a bit of time here's a quote from liber null that I think fits Into the thread as another point of view.

The magic art may be subdivided in many ways: by the ethical
tone of the intent, by the moralistic qualities of the effects, into
high and low, and so on. The division favored here is more
temperamental. White Magic leans more toward the
acquisition of wisdom and a general feeling of faith in the
universe. The Black form is concerned more with the acquisition
of power and is reflective of a basic faith in oneself. The end
results are likely to be not dissimilar, for the paths meet in a
way impossible to describe.
Initiates are at liberty to work with material from either or
both. The so-called middle way, or path of knowledge,
consisting of the acquisition of second hand ideas, is an excuse
to do neither and leads nowhere.

[Prometeo]

Thank you for the quote, I would like to buy books but I don´t have the money, maybe Chaos magic will help, but first I´ll have to succeed at the magical trances, metamorphosis and learning a banishing ritual. Well, at least I have some books on these subjects.

[Prometeo]

What does OP mean? I have seen it in several posts.
When I was studying Liber Al by my cell phone, a customer saw the text and his reaction was like "O shit, I want to get out of here". Then I realized the importance of keeping silence. If you show yourself no matter who you are some people will find you evil, or ridiculous. Anyway, philosophy isn´t useful maybe it´s better to focus about the techniques.

[DawningSun777]

Thank you for the quote, I would like to buy books but I don´t have the money, maybe Chaos magic will help, but first I´ll have to succeed at the magical trances, metamorphosis and learning a banishing ritual. Well, at least I have some books on these subjects.

Why do you have to learn a banishing ritual?

[Prometeo]

Because practicing magick you can attract any random spirit. Or it could be also explained as a psychological thing and archetypes being activated in your subconscious, depending on your theory of magick. I thought that you knew that if you have practiced magick or read Crowley or Carroll.

[Prometeo]

Does OP mean Occultforum Post?

[Zenick]

OP is the creator of the thread in this case that would be you Prometeo.

You where taking about liber mmm i just assumed you had liber null as liber mmm is included in it.
Liber null is fairly easy to find on line if you look around the forum I'm sure you can find links to a lot of other good resources on line too.

Yeah letting people know what your doing can be a tricky one some people will want to know more others won't care,some will think your crazy,others will look at you as evil.

[DawningSun777]

Because practicing magick you can attract any random spirit. Or it could be also explained as a psychological thing and archetypes being activated in your subconscious, depending on your theory of magick. I thought that you knew that if you have practiced magick or read Crowley or Carroll.

My knowledge is exactly why I can't wrap my head around one NEEDING to know banishing rituals. If you can't control your own archetypes then wouldn't it be better to work on that? I've never done a banishing ritual in my life, why fear entities you yourself have created?

[Zenick]

Because practicing magick you can attract any random spirit. Or it could be also explained as a psychological thing and archetypes being activated in your subconscious, depending on your theory of magick. I thought that you knew that if you have practiced magick or read Crowley or Carroll.

My knowledge is exactly why I can't wrap my head around one NEEDING to know banishing rituals. If you can't control your own archetypes then wouldn't it be better to work on that? I've never done a banishing ritual in my life, why fear entities you yourself have created?

Not everyone views are based on the physiological model although it's not bad to have a simple technique to clear your thoughts and feeling before a working or meditation.There is also the fact that it's a pretty good way of practising basic ritual techniques.

[DawningSun777]

Because practicing magick you can attract any random spirit. Or it could be also explained as a psychological thing and archetypes being activated in your subconscious, depending on your theory of magick. I thought that you knew that if you have practiced magick or read Crowley or Carroll.

My knowledge is exactly why I can't wrap my head around one NEEDING to know banishing rituals. If you can't control your own archetypes then wouldn't it be better to work on that? I've never done a banishing ritual in my life, why fear entities you yourself have created?

Not everyone views are based on the physiological model although it's not bad to have a simple technique to clear your thoughts and feeling before a working or meditation.There is also the fact that it's a pretty good way of practising basic ritual techniques.

Even a Skyrim Mage doesn't take on magick he can't yet handle. Psychological, supernatural, downright fictional, if you can't handle it don't do it, especially when your belief is that you cannot handle it.

Also, not everyone believes the earth isn't flat either

[Prometeo]

If something appears uninvited, what do you do without using a banishing ritual?

[DawningSun777]

If something appears uninvited, what do you do without using a banishing ritual?

I stop believing in it. In non-magickal situations, such as with depression, I use magick to battle it but the idea of banishing depression would be unwarranted as there is no " cure".