How do you think sigils work?

[Horny Goat]

A pre-chaos magick description of practical, results magick held that there was a level of reality called the astral plane. Whatever you visualised came into existence on the astral plane. If you made these visualisations strong enough by prolonged concentration, strong emotion, or by deliberately projecting energy into them, they would manifest on the physical plane.

By placing a sigil into the depths of your unconscious and then forgetting it, is the unconscious daily creating/visualising the desired result but without your conscious mind being involved and therefore unaware of it?

[JohnTitor]

That is indeed a very well constructed theory, though based in standard sigil magick. Thought-forms in particular are what you are discussing. They exist in the lower planes as they are not charged nor potent enough to exist much deeper in the planes. By creating a sigil and forgetting it- you have simply created a method of empowering said thought-form. Granting it a name creates an entity when charged and given purpose and a set schedule of activity and set source of power (eg it's purpose being protecting you from general harm- it is to act only when another entity is present with malevolent intent- it is to feed from the sun when activated) Does this help? This is the basis for creation of familiars outside of the pre-existing entities such as a spirit animal guide or guardian angel.

added: as far as manifesting in the physical realm- they often may come as something you may deem unrelated. You want a raise for example, you may be presented with a very serious project at work that if you perform well on you may get a promotion. If you want a guardian- you may very well have someone enter your life and it is up to you to recognize these events as the magickal phenomena they are.

[cyberdemon]

That's a brilliant hypothesis on how sigils & thought forms work!
Thanks for the heads up.

[JohnTitor]

You are very welcome, and Sigil Magick was a very intriguing area of practice to me for the longest of time. Though it may be simplistic, that is it's power and why it is a very effective means of getting results Any other questions or Ideas i'm more than happy to bounce around thoughts on the subject.

[Maya The Generator]

Quantum physics answers many questions when it comes to sigilis and magick as a whole. My language is bad on the other side so sorry for not much follow up on the answer. It is hard topic in my own language and in english I am not feeling that strong to discuss it. But I leave it here, maybe it will be of any help.

[JohnTitor]

I may have some more research to do Quantum physics playing a role in magickal working is certainly nothing foreign to me, however to specifically designate sigil magick would also imply Runic as well as Alchemy on the premise of image and subconscious relativity.

[Ramscha]

I can't say that I have an absolute certainty how sigil magick exactly works, there are too many models and ways to describe it and in the fitting context/paradigm they make mostly sense to a cerrtain degree.

I therefore want to add two additional thoughts on the matter though they are not exaclty what I see myself as "absolute truth behind sigils":

1) Probably the flatest psychological model. Creating a sigil and then charging it with spares death position gives a kind of "order" from the conscious part to the subconscious part of the mind. The sent sigil triggers a sort of change in the behaviour through which the stated will is tried to be archieved as long as it moves in the area of the physical possible options.

2) Creating and charging a sigil leaves an "imprint" in the, lets call it "astral plane" for a lack of better words atm.. This imprint then works as a sort of magnet when charged attracting the thing desired through the will stated or moving one towards it.

In both cases I left out the part with the forgetting as I see it as an optional way. I saw not only myself but also other colleagues of the IOT working with varities in sigil practice, both with and without the explicite forgetting part, some even kept the sigils around, painted them or made posters with them or just put them under the cushion. Others made cookies and ingested them, burned their sigil papers or made paper planes out of them and sent them into oblivion.

There are many ways and variations, to each one his own.

Ramscha

[JohnTitor]

Thank you Ramscha

I can't say that I have an absolute certainty how sigil magick exactly works, there are too many models and ways to describe it and in the fitting context/paradigm they make mostly sense to a cerrtain degree.

I therefore want to add two additional thoughts on the matter though they are not exaclty what I see myself as "absolute truth behind sigils":

1) Probably the flatest psychological model. Creating a sigil and then charging it with spares death position gives a kind of "order" from the conscious part to the subconscious part of the mind. The sent sigil triggers a sort of change in the behaviour through which the stated will is tried to be archieved as long as it moves in the area of the physical possible options.

2) Creating and charging a sigil leaves an "imprint" in the, lets call it "astral plane" for a lack of better words atm.. This imprint then works as a sort of magnet when charged attracting the thing desired through the will stated or moving one towards it.

In both cases I left out the part with the forgetting as I see it as an optional way. I saw not only myself but also other colleagues of the IOT working with varities in sigil practice, both with and without the explicite forgetting part, some even kept the sigils around, painted them or made posters with them or just put them under the cushion. Others made cookies and ingested them, burned their sigil papers or made paper planes out of them and sent them into oblivion.

There are many ways and variations, to each one his own.

Ramscha

Very helpful when considering the actual function, and as you stated, many ways and variations, each subject to context and paradigm.

[cyberdemon]

Considering that many sigils and their variations have been used and overused for a very, very long time, they have possibly become stronger as a connection between our planes of existence and higher ones.

(Random thought, I wonder if single cell organisms could perceive planes, would we be a higher plane than them?)

Anyway, re-use of certain sigils have probably thus turned them into "telephone numbers", technically. Maybe email address is a better metaphor..

[JohnTitor]

Considering that many sigils and their variations have been used and overused for a very, very long time, they have possibly become stronger as a connection between our planes of existence and higher ones.

(Random thought, I wonder if single cell organisms could perceive planes, would we be a higher plane than them?)

Anyway, re-use of certain sigils have probably thus turned them into "telephone numbers", technically. Maybe email address is a better metaphor..

I love the concept of the use of sigils (specifically known sigils such as those in the Keys of Solomon) making them so powerful that they can be accessed much like a phone number to connect to the other planes. In this particular instance when dealing with non-thought-form/entity sigils, I believe the likelihood lessens though. While yes, the re-use of a said sigil (take one for bringing a raise into your life) if somebody had already constructed it- it would be without a doubt easier access to a degree, but your will and your manifest would certainly come into play here. Somebody else has created this rune and is currently always drawing from it subconsciously- and as a result it will have now two people to react to. While you may be charging it before use, there is still bound to be other "power drainage" much as a house has multiple light sockets to be plugged in to. So, your collective "bill for energy consumption" was only 1 person- now you have two people draining from the source. once you forget about it (without creation of a thought form, this is standard spell-weaving still) it is no longer charging unless you have designated an alternate power source for it's activation. You may end up facilitating the means to somebody elses end long before you reach your goal.

I like Ramscha's point here -

2) Creating and charging a sigil leaves an "imprint" in the, lets call it "astral plane" for a lack of better words atm.. This imprint then works as a sort of magnet when charged attracting the thing desired through the will stated or moving one towards it.

Without the charge being continuous or lets say- being plugged IN (comparing to an electro-magnet here) it loses functionality. This is all speculation to a degree to be fair, and is by no means set in stone.

[Shinichi]

It seriously depends. There is more than one kind of sigil that can be used for more than one thing and made in more than one way. You're not dealing with a single little thing here, you're talking about an entire subject with many intricacies and nuances, and something that is used differently by more than one system of magick too. It's freakin' complicated, and it's probably a waste of time to find a single all-purpose definition and theoretical explanation.

By the way, I never forget my sigils, bind-runes and power symboles - and they always work. You don't have to literally forget it, you just have to release the charge and let the magick do its thing. Like in some movies or novels like Dresden, where they talk about that charge of energy and the "snap" of release when the spell is fired. Your unconscious mind and whether or not you remember the spell is all thoroughly irrelevant in genuine spellcraft.



~:Shin:~

[JohnTitor]

By the way, I never forget my sigils, bind-runes and power symboles - and they always work. You don't have to literally forget it, you just have to release the charge and let the magick do its thing. Like in some movies or novels like Dresden, where they talk about that charge of energy and the "snap" of release when the spell is fired. Your unconscious mind and whether or not you remember the spell is all thoroughly irrelevant in genuine spellcraft.

Shinichi-

Whilst I agree with the forgetting being subjective and not necessarily required, it is certainly nothing to be discredited as, or labeled as genuine or in-genuine. The practitioner must find that which works best for themselves. I have kept many sigils around for a reminder should I miss the opportunity, or as an amplifier should it not have come yet. I would keep them often times in a notebook and while looking through it for something, it would fall out or be still written there instead of being done away with. Now my conscious mind has noted it yet again and the subconscious is lets say... kickstarted or boosted. I now have the image clear in my mind to meditate upon to recharge the sigil. I love how you explained that it is so multifaceted that to discuss only one aspect or define one all purpose technique is pointless or counterproductive.

It's freakin' complicated, and it's probably a waste of time to find a single all-purpose definition and theoretical explanation.

That being said, the curiosity of the nature is still to be pondered, and congratulations on never having a SINGLE failure. Bind runes however while conceptually similar, I feel do not behave in the same manner. Many times bind-runes are to be kept around like an amulet or inscribed on some other magickal item. I find little historical context pertaining to the Norse where they would ever NOT inscribe or keep them around, whereas in history you see sigils often released both symbolically as well as physically. While comparing the two, you see that they are all purpose magick- and as such defining them as one thing is like trying to put your finger on all surfaces of a dice at once. However that is not to say that they cannot be generalized for easy use and understanding. Certainly seek out the truth and way to do so, but to classify it as impossible or pointless is equally counterproductive to trying to spending too much time on it. What do you think Shinichi? I have enjoyed your insights on many a post.

[Shinichi]

Whilst I agree with the forgetting being subjective and not necessarily required, it is certainly nothing to be discredited as, or labeled as genuine or in-genuine. The practitioner must find that which works best for themselves.

Actually, this is exactly the sort of thing where discernment needs to be applied so that genuine or ingenuine can be determined. Sure, individual practitioners need to discover their own style and method as surely as individual artists of any kind do. But at the end of the day, there is such a thing as objective reality, and something simply either works or it doesn't. Metaphysics is not an entirely subjective and imaginary playground.

Forgetting a sigil after casting it has no effect on the actual casting or the success of the results, so it is irrelevant to any genuine casting of a sigil spell. Or any other spell. What matters is the intent or quality being charged, the charge of energy, and the "sending" or "release" of that charge. There are a lot of ways to enforce those things and a lot of useful extras (ritual magick is powerful for a reason), but too many would be occultists thoroughly over complicate things with unnecessary instructions and add ons. There is nothing wrong with calling out an obvious problem when you see it, any more than it's wrong to try and correct someone who thinks 2+2=2. They may not appreciate the correction, but that doesn't mean that they are right.

Bind runes however while conceptually similar, I feel do not behave in the same manner. Many times bind-runes are to be kept around like an amulet or inscribed on some other magickal item. I find little historical context pertaining to the Norse where they would ever NOT inscribe or keep them around, whereas in history you see sigils often released both symbolically as well as physically.

Oh, runes are a completely different beast, and are actually my specialty far more than the sigils most people here are discussing. One of the neat things about the Runes is that they have their own innate power and qualities, and all you have to do is activate it by charging the rune. They are the forces of nature, The Mysteries themselves, and their power is completely independent of any magician. They also do not need to be inscribed or carried around to have power - rather, it's the other way around. Their power is imposed on where you inscribe it, particularly once it's charged.

Really, don't get me started on rune magic. That's an entirely different subject now. [razz]

But to try and offer a simple explanation: the Runes are each metaphysically bound to a force of nature, an aspect of Wyrd, to such a point that they are the direct pictorial (and verbal) representation of that force in the practice of magick. To such a point that, when a magician properly constructs a bindrune, they are literally weaving together the forces of nature and the fabric of reality into a single rune and a single word of power (magical/kabbalistic formula, as Bardon, Crowley and others in recent times termed it) towards the end of causing a specific effect. A basic Chaos style sigil actually works the other way around, where you state your intent and then project it out into the fabric of reality and into the forces of nature like throwing a rock into a pond and letting the ripples run their course.

While comparing the two, you see that they are all purpose magick- and as such defining them as one thing is like trying to put your finger on all surfaces of a dice at once. However that is not to say that they cannot be generalized for easy use and understanding. Certainly seek out the truth and way to do so, but to classify it as impossible or pointless is equally counterproductive to trying to spending too much time on it. What do you think Shinichi? I have enjoyed your insights on many a post.

When I compare the two directly, they are not all purpose magic. They are two different magic systems that work in entirely different ways, and I would never define them as one thing. I listed sigils, runes, and power symbols (pentagram, hexagram, etc) as three different things for a reason. There are also other things that I probably can't remember off the top of my head.

You can generalize things for easy use and understanding, but always remember that when you do, special and sometimes important details and nuance is lost in that process. When you approach the Runes as nothing but old Sigils, you fail to access their deeper meanings and their true power. When you treat Sigils as one-shot spells that you have to forget, you waste a lot of time and energy making spells that you don't really need or remaking spells that you do need in lots of usually inefficient ways. When you treat a Spirit Sigil as nothing but a talismanic old spell, you fail to gain contact to the spirit intelligence connected to that spirit, which can teach you many things if it finds you worthy to teach. When you treat every Sigil as a Servitor with intelligence, you end up with a lot of over complicated spells that you don't need.

It's a deep, rich, complicated subject with many aspects to consider. The previous paragraph is only a few small things that are off the top of my head. An entire book, or at least a good sized treatise, would be necessary to consider all of it.

Learning the proper classifications for a method of magic is not impossible, but trying to classify something so complicated into a single definition is probably very pointless, if only because any such singular definition will always fail to capture the full complexities of the arts and crafts that you are attempting to define. Some people are willing to cast away important and functional details in order to grasp on to some measure of power or practical skill. I am not one of those people, and it is because I am not that I have a decent success rate. I study the nuance, practice the dirty little details, and I figure out what actually works.

That, and I'm smart enough and self-aware enough to not bite off more than I can chew. [razz]



~:Shin:~

[JohnTitor]

Shinichi,

That was beautifully constructed I may have phrased certain things incorrectly. When I said that they are both all purpose Magick, I simply meant that each can be used for MANY purposes. While my experience in the Runes is to the Aettir and the relation between each rune and it's correspondence in Nature as well as the trials young Nords would go through in each- I have yet to personally implement those trials into my life to fully connect with the runes. In my invocation I evoke the corresponding god/goddess (my personal favorite is the First Aett under Freyja/Freja) as well as an offering in exchange. This may not be completely necessary, but it works wondrously for myself.

Sigil magick in particular can be used for just as many things as the runes. I do not deign to say that the runes are the SAME, though they are in concept similar. yes the Runes are inherent of the forces of nature and beings residing within, they are equally connected to the cosmos. Sigils however are constructed of thought and desire, or as a means of controlling those forces. I have a question for you since you have more knowledge in the runes than myself (or perhaps a better understanding of), is it safe to say that since a sigil is meant for influence or attraction, could one then use sigil magick WITH runic invocation? Thank you for showing me something I had lost over the last few years

__________
I do hope that Horny Goat can glean much from our discussion and better understand sigil magick.

[Shinichi]

is it safe to say that since a sigil is meant for influence or attraction, could one then use sigil magick WITH runic invocation?

If you're asking if it's possible to mix and match different methods of Magick, the answer is yes. In fact, that's pretty much the working definition of the Chaos Magick paradigm...

I don't really know what exactly you mean exactly by runic invocation, but as long as you understand the different styles well enough then yeah, combo's work fine. It's a bit like MMA - different martial arts have different specialties, so you can't just pile everything in recklessly. But different styles can influence you different ways until you come out on the other side of your training with a style and method that is uniquely yours.

I don't really combine basic sigils with runes, but I had a few scraps of paper laying around and I figured I'd snap a picture of something that I could do, similar to other things that I've done in the past (minus the sigil, but meh - details). Now, let's see if this attachment button works...

There ya go. Sorry the sigil's paper isn't cut nicely. Couldn't find any scissors. Also, that rune circle is one of my reference papers, so it's not my best work either, but since I'm putting this all together at midnight you'll just have to make do. [razz]



~:Shin:~

[JohnTitor]

I do believe this has given Horny Goat much to work with and consider when dealing with sigil magick, and perhaps the elder futhark (i noticed by the specific names you used in the ref that you work with the elder futhark as well) rune set. And to clarify- by runic invocation I refer to calling upon their power. And yes i know the difference between invocation and evocation. Not sure how that particular ref sheet would mix with the sigil, but i also am ignorant of that sigils purpose. Thank you for answering my question Shinichi ^w^ many thanks for this brilliant discussion and I hope horny goat will read all of this with interest and learn much from it, i know i gleaned some useful and helpful information personally.

[Shinichi]

Not sure how that particular ref sheet would mix with the sigil, but i also am ignorant of that sigils purpose.

It's a Magick Circle, which creates a sealed microcosm. The symbols, formulas, runes and so on that you use in the construction of a Magick Circle can serve numerous purposes, but mainly two big ones: the symbols connect those aspects of the Macrocosm to the Microcosm that you created, invoking that power (the most common application, as far as I know), or they are used as part of the Statement of Intent that directs the power of the circle to act a certain way (which is why in some old grimoires, entire incantations are written around the circle).

That particular circle is neither, since it's just a reference sheet and I didn't activate it, but it could be used either way. Personally, I would use it for the invocation bit, the way it's constructed. That's why a lot of Hermetic Circles have the planet and zodiac rings around it too, doing the same thing. Adding those forces into the Circle. This makes the Circle stronger, and it makes what is in the circle stronger if you weave those forces into it. I might draw out one of my more intricate talismanic circles later if I find the time, to demonstrate an active rune spell.

The sigil in that circle is one I sort of made up on the spot last night, too. I deconstructed the word Peace, and weaved the meaning and power of that word into a sigil. Not really sure when or how I might use it, but I needed something for the picture and that's what I ended up doing. It only took a couple minutes anyway.



~:Shin:~

[JohnTitor]

Thank you very much Shinichi Indeed I have much to learn regarding the full utilization of runes. I feel as though I was taught more here than the one who actually started the thread haha. Very useful information. I have been away for too long. If possible, I will find an older circle of my own to share with the group, though perhaps on another thread so as to save clutter here.

many thanks,
titor