Is belief absolutely necessary to make magick work?

[DarkSchneider]

I've often questioned the idea about how gnosis, and the use of belief in chaos magick, is seemingly a necessary factor in the success of employing magickal results. At least, it would appear so. Could anyone with more experience clarify this to me? I'm still trying to come to terms with the idea since, with all the talk of the harms of dogma and formula in Chaos Magick, it seems that the idea that belief and gnosis being necessary for the use of magick seems well... dogmatic and formulaic. Again, it only appears that way to me.

I've talked to some friends, got into arguments about it and I wanna know straight up what you guys think.

It would also seem that, a writer I'm very fond of (a wiccan writer though), Scott Cunningham, that you don't need to believe magick will work for it to work. He uses the example of a calculator, and that using the calculator doesn't require belief to make it work. I'm sort of on the fence about this. Undecided about whether belief has it's place in magick or not. I would think sometimes, depending on the sort of magick and the techniques involved, that, perhaps belief WOULD influence the spell or casting. However, I would also say it isn't always necessary.

For context, I stopped practicing magick for a while, because my friend was hospitalized at the time. I argued with another friend who said my belief wasn't strong enough to help her. BUT the funny thing is, despite all my resistance, she was eventually helped and released from the hospital. I don't know if I really believed in my magick at the time, and her health is still somewhat a problem, it would seem belief may or may not have been a factor. Regardless, it's one of the reasons I stopped for months, and I only got back to practice recently. Which is why I would like some help deciding if Chaos Magick is for me.

[RoseRed]

Oh, honey, I don't think chaos magic would be good for you. You finally have things settled down. Do you really want to throw your life back into chaos?

Belief is required for prayer. You don't have to believe in gravity to not float away. It works regardless of your knowledge, acknowledgement or belief.

[DarkSchneider]

I trust your opinion RoseRed, so I'll listen to your advice. I didn't think there's anything particularly dangerous about Chaos Magick in that sense, about Chaos itself... mmm

I generally like african magick, low magick, herbs, gemstones, stuff like that. I'm not so great with meditation and heavy focus. High magick seems much more of a challenge for me. I've had great success otherwise, employing the methods you suggested to me last year. Surprisingly I've had a lot of success with the Tarot too, one reading I wrote down, that I just found by accident made perfect sense to me. I have a book on Kitchen Witchery like you suggested.

I'm trying to narrow down some ideas of which paths are suitable for me.

[Desecrated]

Positive thinking, prayer and religious thinking has shown to help reduce the time of healing in cancer patients.
But the sun will still be there tomorrow even if you believe in it or not.
The universe is to complex to fold into just one way of thinking.
The best thing about chaos magic is that you can change your way of thinking to get the best result depending on what the situation is.

[the_spiral]

It's not absolutely necessary, but it helps a hell of a lot. A lack of belief could easily create a thoughtform in itself that would work against your greater intention. But as Rose and Desecrated pointed out, plenty of things work whether you believe in them or not. That's the primary danger of dabbling for example, no?

[RoseRed]

It sounds like you are finding your path. It's just not a predefined one. And spiral is right, belief does help a lot.

[BrokenSeeker]

I've recently started on the chaos path (very recently) and one of the core tenants is to do what works for you. If you really feel that African magick and so called low magic resonate with and work for you, then do those things. I hate the term "low magick" because it seems to imply some kind of inferiority. From my research some practitioners of so called "low magick" have achieved some of the greatest heights, and an incredible sense of peace, and from my studies there seems to be just as much power and benefit. One of the attractive things about low magick is that the work seems more tangible. Don't try to force yourself down a path that's unnatural for you. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

As for belief being necessary, I will use your friend's description of the calculator to offer a different point of view. The calculator works whether you believe in it or not. But are you really going to even use the calculator if you don't believe it works? If you use it, but you don't believe the results, then you aren't using the tool the way it's meant to be used. Thus it would be less effective.

Similarly, with chaos magick, not believing it may not stop it from working, but it might stop you from recognizing when it does work, and using those moments to your advantage, nullifying the effect somewhat. Non-belief in the process can also muddle your work. If part of you is daring a spell to fail, that's going to work its way into your will and possibly reduce effectiveness.

I would work in the areas that give yourself the most satisfaction. It has nothing to do with whether or not you're worthy. None of these paths is explicitly better than any other fundamentally. There is only what's right and wrong for you. I would be wary about other people telling you about things like whether or not your belief is strong enough. Don't let them do that! Only you can understand your own belief. Go with your gut.

[DarkSchneider]

Thank you everyone, for the clarification. I think I know what I need to do then. It would appear there is value in belief as a tool, though I think Chaos Magic is generally strenuous for me so I will drop it. The reason I use the term low magic, is simply because I distinguish the different energies you use. I'd compare it to DnD when Wizards use arcane magic, and when Clerics uses Divine magic. All I mean is that this "low" magic is the energies I am more comfortable with. Working with Gods and such, isn't really my thing right now. I have worked with spirits before but rather simple techniques to employ them. So I'm more in the middle I guess you could say. Anyhow it's not big deal. I'm just me.

I'll keep working with the paths that will suit me best and I'll drop what is unhelpful to me.

[RaineAshford]

It's not absolutely necessary, but it helps a hell of a lot. A lack of belief could easily create a thoughtform in itself that would work against your greater intention. But as Rose and Desecrated pointed out, plenty of things work whether you believe in them or not. That's the primary danger of dabbling for example, no?

What methods are there for getting rid of thoughtforms? I've tried reconsidering them and adding math to them and that helps with some, but only if I know where it originated from, how do I find out where a thoughtform originated from?


I know all spells are extensions of your mind.

[RoseRed]

No, they're not. You can believe whatever you like but not everything you believe or think you know is accurate.

And you're not going to undo a thoughtform created from writhing hatred with algebra.

[RaineAshford]

No, they're not. You can believe whatever you like but not everything you believe or think you know is accurate.

And you're not going to undo a thoughtform created from writhing hatred with algebra.

There's different types of math. Experts in magick use logic math and factor math; word math, sentiment math.


Not all math is numbers.



Once a spell has been cast it is forever attached to you(thus actually an extension of your mind) and edited when reconsidered.

[RoseRed]

You have a lot to learn about spellcraft.

[Horny Goat]

My take on chaos magic and gnosis is that by using abstract representations of your goal - sigils and sigil-mantra's - you avoid direct thinking about the goal itself. This means that doubts about your ability to bring about that goal are also avoided.

As to gnosis, it is an altered state of consciousness in which the barrier between the conscious and subconscious mind is reduced. It is a trance state and as such various cognitive functions are reduced, the most important being the faculty of critical thinking which is what rejects sugggestions by doubt.

Think of gnosis as being like a hypnotic trance. A hypnotised subject accepts suggestions that an unhypnotised person does not and cannot. An example of a real hypnotic phenomena - memory recall under time distortion; 'when I tell you, you will re-watch the whole of Gone With The Wind entirely from memory and it will take you only ten minutes.' What unhypnotised subject could possibly accept that suggestion and carry it out?

So then, the purpose of sigils and sigil-mantra's (which to me are the core techniques of chaos magick. Anything more is just an attempt to turn it into lengthy ceremonial magic) and gnosis are to get around doubt. Belief is useful but these techniques make getting around disbelief more easy.

[Procel]

Do you have to believe? Will it "work" if you don't? Valid questions, but why allow yourself to sway your will with self doubt and second guessing. While I do believe there is more to magick than the will and intent of the practitioner, there can be little doubt that the force of the practitioners will and the magnitude of his or her intent bear mightily on the outcome. This isn't like the Tooth Fairey who's existence is all in the belief of the child; but you have to have your Will cemented in the very fiber of your being if you are to do The Work. Do you "have to" believe? If you lack belief, how strong is your intent?

Powered is. It exists with or without your belief, much as the calculator your friend used to challenge your belief. Your ability to work the power is the variable. Focus your will. Focus your intent. That all starts by getting past the admittedly valid question of belief.

[Phaedra]

There is some sects of magic who see doubt as a powerful tool, but even those traditions (like Satanism for example) state that suspension of disbelief is more or less essential part of success in ones working.

In Chaos the belief may be seen as a tool which you can use to success. This Chaos Magic discussion is located to area called Paradigm for reason. Paradigm is something we can adopt and also banish when needed or not.

I think Procel gave a very important and valid point of view by mentioning that it does not help you if you use doubt as base to work, so why to give room to disbeliefe during the act of magic?

There sure is some forms of magic which may cost some results also without ones belief, but even with these forms the belief works as strengthening aspect which gives it more power. After all, it would be little funny to work with things you don´t believe in.

My opinion with Chaos is, that you should have some amount of believe in things you are working with. Do you have to beleive in these things also when you are not using them? I have no opinion to that.

[DeclareInsane]

Unfortunately, for all schools of thought and practice to cement it's longevity it needs to conform to dogma and ideologies or it will die out because nobody will follow it.

Is belief absolutely necessary to make magick work? Actually no! It is the absences of believe that makes magick work. Chaos Magick has come a long way and if you reading older publications then you are behind, not that the older publication are not important. Most of the modern day Chaos Magick can not yet be found in books, you need the right teachers to get the gist of what it's really about.

There's is a choice to make between believing in something supernatural and getting bad results as you have experienced or believing in something that sounds very stupid and normal and against what you are taught to believe but getting great results.

In my teachings we were taught to banish the self and summon the magickal self. The purpose of this ritual is to remove the self with all it's limiting beliefs and thoughts, emotional, doubt, fear etc and summon into it place the magickal self with all the right beliefs and thoughts, emotional, doubt, fear etc needed to successfully complete the ritual. After we return to our "True selves". No belief is needed as the magickal self takes care of what is needed. In true reality what this does is it places us in a state of flight or fight, which is a heighten state of suggestibility. If you are in this heighten state and your limiting self is present then you ritual will be limiting. However, for magickal purposes you must remain in control of the conscious to some degree so that you can direct your intent, otherwise you will just be meditating. Hypnotist achieve this state by disturbing the mental, emotional, belief or physical equilibrium. So magick is powerful self hypnosis. You create change in yourself unconscious and watch how your reality changes by the unconscious choices you make.

I can go on but that's alot to take in. Don't be despondent, the best practitioners of magick are the most curious, they think what are the possibilities. And you seem to be in the right place for the exploration as you are questioning the fundamental beliefs of the system.

[Analytic13]

I think that if you have belief..it carries its own tag or signature..and then you work with that type of energy..as it goes out into the real world..so that indeed your belief..is connected in the aspects of your Magery..and spell casting..thus that you have an effort..it is thus justly apportioned.. into and out of the streams of belief..and causation..often times belief it self is a cause..and will have effects from there out in the real world..you must find out how to match your thoughts and inner mind..with the outside part of your world..or out of body places..such that this becomes holy for you..and understandable..so you can attempt to control the sources and opinions of magic that you philosophize about..