My two cents on Chaos magick

[inMalkuth]

Chaos magick is not unlike being trapped in the position of the Buddha, who can only conclude that life is suffering, and all that we are to do with it is avoid pleasure and desire. He does lead us into a pleasing way of peaceful living, but where is the joy, other than in quiet meditation of Nirvana? This is still life. Why are you here at all if not to experience it.

Chaos magick goes one step further and says "I am here to experience" and that includes things that are "right and wrong". Chaos magicians typically decide that there is no cause or effect to their actions, as if they exist in a land without consequence. While they may experience great insight and heights of ecstasy and self gratification, they ultimately are at the mercy of what they observe, which is; CHAOS... the implication of which, is that there is no real knowledge or process, order or purpose. Is this any different than living a life of suffering? In my view, it is worse because it has no objective.

I conclude that we possess senses and bodies and knowledge to make a decision about what is good. One may be able to understand that certain sensory reactions and behavioral actions can be perceived as either good or bad, but the point is not to acknowledge that they can be either or, but to choose one and pursue it. To me, that is the goal and purpose of life, and it is how we survive, and it is how we learn what is TRULY good about life, and that is JOY.

[inMalkuth]

In the ceremonial magick view what is happening to those who practice chaos is that they are in the abyss and are becoming black brothers. Until you can destroy your own awareness and reform it in light of a purpose, you will never advance any further. You will be tossed about and lost.

[chowderpope]

I would say it's your zero cents on chaos magick because it is worthless. Sorry buddy.

[inMalkuth]

Thanks for the zero cents worth of opinion, buddy.

[blindwake]

Here, have a quarter (throws a 25 cent coin to InMalkuth). Now you can give your two cents 12 times on various topics, and 1 cent on some other topic.
We shouldn't be cheap. It is important to pay for stand up comedy.

[Cerber]

Here, have a quarter (throws a 25 cent coin to InMalkuth). Now you can give your two cents 12 times on various topics, and 1 cent on some other topic.
We shouldn't be cheap. It is important to pay for stand up comedy.

Comus was not impressed, you made him sad [cry]

[blindwake]

No, but Eris was flattered. [clown]

[chowderpope]

I think my opinion was worth at least 5 cents, but that's my opinion. I would value my opinion about my opinion at 5 cents as well, for a total of 10 cents.

[blindwake]

We're going to have to settle on 4 cents per opinion. 5 seems a little steep [stare]

[Shawn Blackwolf]

There are enough O pinions here , for me to get a cup of coffee...

https://www.google.com/search?q=pinion& ... 66&bih=604

Though , I shall stop for every sigil light , along the way... [thumbup]

[inMalkuth]

This is just another example of peoples general unwillingness to even bother to discuss another persons ideas, to see their point of view, or to express their point of view as a counter point. Its a perfect example of why the occult world will fail just as hard as another other spiritual system. When you decide to simply insult people, everyone loses.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Just make sure you see I did not insult you at all... [thumbup]

And , I wish , not just you , InMalkuth , but everyone here would start using the word "occult" properly...

"Occult" means *hidden*...

Thus , the occult world , will never fall apart...

This forum which is supposedly a place to discuss *hidden things* , or bring them to light ,
may , or may not fall apart , and fail , dependent on entropy , and the allowance of new
information introduced into the system...if some allow it... [wink]

I have decided to just have more fun , because there are those who have chosen to force
their ideas of what is real , or not , onto others , or belittle them...

I have reached the decision , it is not worth my time to try to inform , assist , or offer
another view , because some insist on their way being the only valid one...

So , if need be , I shall stay on sites where I am mostly appreciated , if not outright loved
and supported , and my information is , if not always agreed with , is given more respect
"in general" than here...no one is ever going to have everyone agree with them , and there
will always be times most will disagree with them...

Even Einstein was a perfect example...

We just have to keep doing what we believe to be right , even though we may change our spacetime location... [thumbup]

It is all *relative* , anyway... [cool]

[inMalkuth]

You had me going up to the "its all relative part" I totally agree; it gets to the point in sharing an idea where people will disagree just because they chose not to like you. I cant stop that. Im also not going to stop questioning and presuming and contemplating and suggesting. That would be against my nature of trying to solve problems and discuss options.

This is where the "all relative" disagreement comes in, because it may be true that there is no "ABSOLUTE WAY", but the fact is, that there ARE some ways, and some ways ARE better than others (at least for myself). This way is most easily proved by the fact that we are involved in a conversation. This is the beginning of understanding the good. Unfortunately, most people could give two shits about the fact that I exist, or have an opinion, or am expressing and putting myself into the line of fire, and take full advantage of the bully mentality provided by any form of strength. But, who is really the strong one? Is it me; for making suggestions and offering honest reflection on ideas, or is it the one who is offended that my view doesnt coincide with theirs, or contradicts theirs, or is intimidated by my strength and willingness to expose myself to challenge? Whatever the reasoning, I am pretty certain that bullying comes from a weakness. The true test of my strength is how I choose to react. (I dont claim perfection either).

Anyway... its not all relative. Certain ideas and perspectives and opinions may never be worked out, but at least some of us are willing to try [thumbup]

[inMalkuth]

The adept, as having been subjected to the Abyss, recognizes that all can, and may be; chaos. He exists in a world without meaning, turning over every particle and idea to find a thread that he can form into a rope so as to climb out of the chasm that as a fool, he chose to fling himself into. The power of the adept is gauged in the length he spends analyzing Choronzon and the attacks on his soul. Eventually the adept learns the curse of chaos and indifference, and emerges invigorated with purpose to become a Master of the Temple, who looks everywhere for God and meaning.

[inMalkuth]

The final lesson a neophyte must learn, and the first lesson of an adept, is to stop being indifferent.

The greatest lesson of Choronzon is to learn to overcome chaos and to be indifferent to it. It is a different kind of indifference. The kind of indifference that most mortals possess is the first vestment that the initiate destroys. The Heavenly flame is lit with this robe of indifference and the fool steps into the abyss with his flower. Then, the real effort to destroy indifference and understand chaos begins.

[blindwake]

InMalkuth,

Chaos magick is not unlike being trapped in the position of the Buddha, who can only conclude that life is suffering, and all that we are to do with it is avoid pleasure and desire

Can you please supply a definition of "suffering". I personally find my own misery to be quite enjoyable. I actually seriously struggle with the idea of "pleasure" vs "pain". If you ram a knife through my hand, my body will respond to the pain signal automatically, but mentally, that doesn't mean the feeling is bad. If you really want to reach wisdom, you've got to look deeper than pain and pleasure. You've got to figure out what makes each what they are.

Why would a chaos magickian avoid pleasure and desire? The whole point of chaos it to shed the ideologies and do what you want.

Chaos magicians typically decide that there is no cause or effect to their actions, as if they exist in a land without consequence.

Invalid. You try to apply a blanket statement to a group of people that are, pretty much by definition, non conformists.

To me, that is the goal and purpose of life, and it is how we survive, and it is how we learn what is TRULY good about life, and that is JOY.

Please define "good" and "joy". They are subjective. I'm not sure what you mean by "TRULY".

In the ceremonial magick view what is happening to those who practice chaos is that they are in the abyss and are becoming black brothers. Until you can destroy your own awareness and reform it in light of a purpose, you will never advance any further. You will be tossed about and lost.

I wasn't aware that ceremonial magick actually had some built in view. I thought it just referred to people that practice magick using ceremonies, rituals, etc.

This is just another example of peoples general unwillingness to even bother to discuss another persons ideas, to see their point of view, or to express their point of view as a counter point. Its a perfect example of why the occult world will fail just as hard as another other spiritual system. When you decide to simply insult people, everyone loses.

I am now discussing. In the future, provide reasoning behind your opinions. Opinions by themselves are not worth discussing. It is my job in a conversation to destroy your reasoning, which invalidates your assertion. I cannot converse with you, and debate, if there is nothing to destroy. If I do not provide reasoning for my own assertions, it is because I think they are self evident. If they are not self evident, and someone contests them, it is then my duty to either assimilate the more correct idea, or to defend my own after the fact. If someone insults you, it's probably because they think their objection to your opinion is self evident. At which point, it is necessary for you to give explicit reasoning for why you are correct.

For various reasons, I never argue religion with people. If I am having a debate, there must be risks involved. If you win, I join your religion. If you lose, you have to join mine. There's no point in having a debate if no one ever changes their minds about anything afterwards. You have to be willing to lose if you want to fight (debate). Of course there are other rules, for what a valid "win" means, but those are the basics.

The occult can't fail. It literally just means hidden. It's not a system. It's an alternative way of looking at things. It's a deliberate attempt to expand one's perspective by looking at the previously unnoticed.

You had me going up to the "its all relative part" I totally agree; it gets to the point in sharing an idea where people will disagree just because they chose not to like you. I cant stop that. Im also not going to stop questioning and presuming and contemplating and suggesting. That would be against my nature of trying to solve problems and discuss options.

I don't apply opinions to people. It is idiotic to disagree with a good idea, just because the origin is not your best friend. It's not you that I'm against. It's your ideas. In the future, you need to provide reasoning to your ideas.

This is where the "all relative" disagreement comes in, because it may be true that there is no "ABSOLUTE WAY", but the fact is, that there ARE some ways, and some ways ARE better than others (at least for myself). This way is most easily proved by the fact that we are involved in a conversation. This is the beginning of understanding the good. Unfortunately, most people could give two shits about the fact that I exist, or have an opinion, or am expressing and putting myself into the line of fire, and take full advantage of the bully mentality provided by any form of strength. But, who is really the strong one? Is it me; for making suggestions and offering honest reflection on ideas, or is it the one who is offended that my view doesnt coincide with theirs, or contradicts theirs, or is intimidated by my strength and willingness to expose myself to challenge? Whatever the reasoning, I am pretty certain that bullying comes from a weakness. The true test of my strength is how I choose to react. (I dont claim perfection either).

Your need to assert your own strength implies weakness. Treat "ways" as strategies. Not every strategy will work in every context. That is why there is no absolute. Different people with different skill sets will typically require different strategies.

Bullying does not come from weakness. It comes from a desire to upset the way things are, in order to provide some sort of chemical high. Those people who bully, on playgrounds for example, are not bullying because they want to hurt you; they don't care about you. They want to hurt you because it makes THEM feel alive. Some people are just wired differently. It's not weak, anymore than you having to eat food is weak. It's just that different people have different dietary needs. Bullying comes from emotion and impulse (or the lack thereof), not weakness.

Of course you don't claim perfection. Perfection doesn't exist. It's a mostly meaningless word.

The adept, as having been subjected to the Abyss, recognizes that all can, and may be; chaos. He exists in a world without meaning, turning over every particle and idea to find a thread that he can form into a rope so as to climb out of the chasm that as a fool, he chose to fling himself into. The power of the adept is gauged in the length he spends analyzing Choronzon and the attacks on his soul. Eventually the adept learns the curse of chaos and indifference, and emerges invigorated with purpose to become a Master of the Temple, who looks everywhere for God and meaning.

You seem to be stuck on ideologies. It is my belief that "adept", "abyss", "choronzon", etc., are all analogies. They are abstract. Those fancy words only seem great because of the emotion that people feel when they read them. If you want to get somewhere in this study, I recommend that you try to look at things a bit more mechanically, and write what you are actually trying to convey, rather than interesting stories.

The abyss, I believe, refers to The Dark Night of the Soul. An abyss is dark, lonely, often damp, and in general, is a terrible place to be. That's the analogy. Your next term "chaos", has no definite meaning, so I don't know how to translate it. Do you mean, "new ideas"? Usually I interpret chaos as being a change from the normal way of things. To invoke chaos might be to get yourself thrown into a ward, for example, just for fun.

Now, I agree on the meaning part. I would replace "adept" with "nihilist" though. Nihilism, is basically the acceptance that everything lacks intrinsic meaning. You could replace that whole sentence about the rope with something like: the nihilist has opened their worldview such that they no longer feel knowledgeable, and need to absorb newly found sources of information in order to return to a comfortable place of being. Say what you mean. Too much poetry makes it hard to understand you. Choronzon, I believe, is an analogy for how the uncertainty caused by a change in perspective can make someone feel "attacked" or "stressed". Just say that the adept gets stronger as they gain experience.

Uncertainty (chaos) and indifference, are not curses. Maybe for you, but I personally thrive on them. Chaos confuses me, and makes me better at quickly regaining my grip on reality. Indifference makes me able to get what I want without guilt. Personally, if I knew I couldn't be killed (or permanently damaged), and I had the choice between a beautiful vacation at a resort, and standing in a fire pit while people unloaded guns into me, I'd probably take the fire pit. I like to get out of my comfort zone. Following impulse, that which you think is good, will only keep getting you the same old. Following the exact opposite of what you want, is much more interesting.

Meaning is relative. God does not exist, or is not a functional solution for creation. If god were the creator, logically, god would also need to be created, thus causing an infinite causal chain. This means that there are either many "gods" or there are none. Why would I need meaning? All I need to do is pick something and do it. There doesn't have to be some "higher cause".

The final lesson a neophyte must learn, and the first lesson of an adept, is to stop being indifferent.

False, you will not survive this world if your first lesson is to become empathetic. The first lesson is to become indifferent. If you are not indifferent, you will not have the courage to get what you want. First comes suicidal tendencies, then comes confidence in your own abilities. You also still seem to be stuck on class distinctions. Why not just call yourself god and be done with it? Be your own god; your own master.

The greatest lesson of Choronzon is to learn to overcome chaos and to be indifferent to it. It is a different kind of indifference. The kind of indifference that most mortals possess is the first vestment that the initiate destroys. The Heavenly flame is lit with this robe of indifference and the fool steps into the abyss with his flower. Then, the real effort to destroy indifference and understand chaos begins.

Most mortals aren't indifferent. They care a lot, cry a lot, etc. It's wired into them.
You can't expect to be able to completely change your psychology. The real trick to this subject, is to use the skills you already have to your advantage. Not to become someone else first.
You don't need to be indifferent to be an adept. Pick your motive: caring or uncaring. Serve yourself or others. Neither is right or wrong, but you've got to make up your mind. Or, you can do both in degrees.
Again, I don't see why you'd want to destroy indifference.

[inMalkuth]

I dont know how to edit these things. please look for the sentences that begin with a --------- to hear my reply.

InMalkuth,

Chaos magick is not unlike being trapped in the position of the Buddha, who can only conclude that life is suffering, and all that we are to do with it is avoid pleasure and desire

Can you please supply a definition of "suffering". I personally find my own misery to be quite enjoyable. I actually seriously struggle with the idea of "pleasure" vs "pain". If you ram a knife through my hand, my body will respond to the pain signal automatically, but mentally, that doesn't mean the feeling is bad. If you really want to reach wisdom, you've got to look deeper than pain and pleasure. You've got to figure out what makes each what they are.

------ Here is where you missed the point of this post completely.

Why would a chaos magickian avoid pleasure and desire? The whole point of chaos it to shed the ideologies and do what you want.
-----------But here you seem to understand, somewhat.

Chaos magicians typically decide that there is no cause or effect to their actions, as if they exist in a land without consequence.

Invalid. You try to apply a blanket statement to a group of people that are, pretty much by definition, non conformists.

---------- What you should have done here is disputed that chaos magicians believe there is no consequence.

To me, that is the goal and purpose of life, and it is how we survive, and it is how we learn what is TRULY good about life, and that is JOY.

Please define "good" and "joy". They are subjective. I'm not sure what you mean by "TRULY".

------------This seems like a failed argument. If you dont know what truth is, or joy or purpose, then you are not within my reach of convincing you of such things.

In the ceremonial magick view what is happening to those who practice chaos is that they are in the abyss and are becoming black brothers. Until you can destroy your own awareness and reform it in light of a purpose, you will never advance any further. You will be tossed about and lost.

I wasn't aware that ceremonial magick actually had some built in view. I thought it just referred to people that practice magick using ceremonies, rituals, etc.

-----------Well, it does.

This is just another example of peoples general unwillingness to even bother to discuss another persons ideas, to see their point of view, or to express their point of view as a counter point. Its a perfect example of why the occult world will fail just as hard as another other spiritual system. When you decide to simply insult people, everyone loses.

I am now discussing. In the future, provide reasoning behind your opinions. Opinions by themselves are not worth discussing. It is my job in a conversation to destroy your reasoning, which invalidates your assertion. I cannot converse with you, and debate, if there is nothing to destroy. If I do not provide reasoning for my own assertions, it is because I think they are self evident. If they are not self evident, and someone contests them, it is then my duty to either assimilate the more correct idea, or to defend my own after the fact. If someone insults you, it's probably because they think their objection to your opinion is self evident. At which point, it is necessary for you to give explicit reasoning for why you are correct.

----------- True. I obviously believe that my point is self evident. And yes, it is your duty to agree or disagree should you be trying to engage in a conversation with me (one that I started, even). Simply casting insults when someone speaks is not having a discussion, and it is to them that I speak. In other words; join in or fuck off.

For various reasons, I never argue religion with people. If I am having a debate, there must be risks involved. If you win, I join your religion. If you lose, you have to join mine. There's no point in having a debate if no one ever changes their minds about anything afterwards. You have to be willing to lose if you want to fight (debate). Of course there are other rules, for what a valid "win" means, but those are the basics.

----------Again, for these individuals, there is no debate. They simply come into my threads to cast insults. If I make a blanket statement that you disagree with, then say why. Simply saying Im a loser or that I am making a blanket statement isnt doing me any good. How do I convince you that my blanket statement holds any truth if I cant understand your reasoning for disputing it? Sure, I could post the lengthy process of my thinking that led me to a blanket statement, but isnt it more interesting to do some thinking about how you feel about my blanket statement than for me to do all the thinking for you?

The occult can't fail. It literally just means hidden. It's not a system. It's an alternative way of looking at things. It's a deliberate attempt to expand one's perspective by looking at the previously unnoticed.

---------- Okay, forgive me. I meant "Magick". "The occult", in itself, has no governor or king.

You had me going up to the "its all relative part" I totally agree; it gets to the point in sharing an idea where people will disagree just because they chose not to like you. I cant stop that. Im also not going to stop questioning and presuming and contemplating and suggesting. That would be against my nature of trying to solve problems and discuss options.

I don't apply opinions to people. It is idiotic to disagree with a good idea, just because the origin is not your best friend. It's not you that I'm against. It's your ideas. In the future, you need to provide reasoning to your ideas.

---------- Forgive me again, I assumed that the premise of these ideas were rather commonplace.

This is where the "all relative" disagreement comes in, because it may be true that there is no "ABSOLUTE WAY", but the fact is, that there ARE some ways, and some ways ARE better than others (at least for myself). This way is most easily proved by the fact that we are involved in a conversation. This is the beginning of understanding the good. Unfortunately, most people could give two shits about the fact that I exist, or have an opinion, or am expressing and putting myself into the line of fire, and take full advantage of the bully mentality provided by any form of strength. But, who is really the strong one? Is it me; for making suggestions and offering honest reflection on ideas, or is it the one who is offended that my view doesnt coincide with theirs, or contradicts theirs, or is intimidated by my strength and willingness to expose myself to challenge? Whatever the reasoning, I am pretty certain that bullying comes from a weakness. The true test of my strength is how I choose to react. (I dont claim perfection either).

Your need to assert your own strength implies weakness. Treat "ways" as strategies. Not every strategy will work in every context. That is why there is no absolute. Different people with different skill sets will typically require different strategies.

------------ Youre right, I could simply tell these trolls to gtfo of my thread instead of contest their need to bully me. Anyway, this portion of the conversation is mostly used as an example for why people dont bother to do any real thinking, and its less about whether I feel insulted (although it is hard for me to stomach).

Bullying does not come from weakness. It comes from a desire to upset the way things are, in order to provide some sort of chemical high. Those people who bully, on playgrounds for example, are not bullying because they want to hurt you; they don't care about you. They want to hurt you because it makes THEM feel alive. Some people are just wired differently. It's not weak, anymore than you having to eat food is weak. It's just that different people have different dietary needs. Bullying comes from emotion and impulse (or the lack thereof), not weakness.

------------ Actually I disagree. First of all, if they need to assert their strength over someone to provide a high by doing something that is generally considered to be abnormal to an adjusted person, then there is a weakness for the high. Aside from that, the fact that they find that they need a high to establish that they are alive, or even strong, is still a weakness. Also, it is extremely weak to do this type of thing by bullying someone; go jump off a cliff if you need a thrill to feel alive.


Of course you don't claim perfection. Perfection doesn't exist. It's a mostly meaningless word.

------------ Perhaps it is meaningless for those who dont bother to see something to its best result. Another argument against chaos magicians that dont bother making any real analysis of choice to come to a point of will that has any real affect on the world in an organized way.

The adept, as having been subjected to the Abyss, recognizes that all can, and may be; chaos. He exists in a world without meaning, turning over every particle and idea to find a thread that he can form into a rope so as to climb out of the chasm that as a fool, he chose to fling himself into. The power of the adept is gauged in the length he spends analyzing Choronzon and the attacks on his soul. Eventually the adept learns the curse of chaos and indifference, and emerges invigorated with purpose to become a Master of the Temple, who looks everywhere for God and meaning.

You seem to be stuck on ideologies. It is my belief that "adept", "abyss", "choronzon", etc., are all analogies. They are abstract. Those fancy words only seem great because of the emotion that people feel when they read them. If you want to get somewhere in this study, I recommend that you try to look at things a bit more mechanically, and write what you are actually trying to convey, rather than interesting stories.

---------------Funny that you would bother adopting any of these ideas when you dispute the validity of experience that caused much of the original analysis that provided the ideas in the first place! I would ask you; do you believe any of this?


The abyss, I believe, refers to The Dark Night of the Soul. An abyss is dark, lonely, often damp, and in general, is a terrible place to be. That's the analogy. Your next term "chaos", has no definite meaning, so I don't know how to translate it. Do you mean, "new ideas"? Usually I interpret chaos as being a change from the normal way of things. To invoke chaos might be to get yourself thrown into a ward, for example, just for fun.

------------- True, I did not bother to describe chaos and I shall do so now. Chaos is knowing that no matter what you believe, and how strong your will is; that you are helpless at the hands of the demon Choronzon, in an abyss (which typically means endless without top or bottom, or light). Chaos also implies the collection of everything in the absence of any organized way of structure.

Now, I agree on the meaning part. I would replace "adept" with "nihilist" though. Nihilism, is basically the acceptance that everything lacks intrinsic meaning. You could replace that whole sentence about the rope with something like: the nihilist has opened their worldview such that they no longer feel knowledgeable, and need to absorb newly found sources of information in order to return to a comfortable place of being. Say what you mean. Too much poetry makes it hard to understand you. Choronzon, I believe, is an analogy for how the uncertainty caused by a change in perspective can make someone feel "attacked" or "stressed". Just say that the adept gets stronger as they gain experience.

-------------No. An adept in Magick is someone that has literally experienced magick, and knowledge, and a greater adept is someone that knows that Choronzon is a real being in a real place (abyss). Sorry if you were unaware of the Golden Dawn, and the sacred rites that are contained within the system of "Magick".



Uncertainty (chaos) and indifference, are not curses. Maybe for you, but I personally thrive on them. Chaos confuses me, and makes me better at quickly regaining my grip on reality. Indifference makes me able to get what I want without guilt. Personally, if I knew I couldn't be killed (or permanently damaged), and I had the choice between a beautiful vacation at a resort, and standing in a fire pit while people unloaded guns into me, I'd probably take the fire pit. I like to get out of my comfort zone. Following impulse, that which you think is good, will only keep getting you the same old. Following the exact opposite of what you want, is much more interesting.

---------------You are right that chaos is confusion, and that indifference means no consequence, and that is the actual point of why I say a person needs to overcome this stage in life. We cannot survive such a firing squad.



Meaning is relative. God does not exist, or is not a functional solution for creation. If god were the creator, logically, god would also need to be created, thus causing an infinite causal chain. This means that there are either many "gods" or there are none. Why would I need meaning? All I need to do is pick something and do it. There doesn't have to be some "higher cause".

----------------No, there doesnt have to be. If that is your goal, then why not just do these things and get off the computer and out of the books?

The final lesson a neophyte must learn, and the first lesson of an adept, is to stop being indifferent.

False, you will not survive this world if your first lesson is to become empathetic. The first lesson is to become indifferent. If you are not indifferent, you will not have the courage to get what you want. First comes suicidal tendencies, then comes confidence in your own abilities. You also still seem to be stuck on class distinctions. Why not just call yourself god and be done with it? Be your own god; your own master.

----------------Wait... you misread: the final lesson of the neophyte (someone from your point of view) and the first lesson of the adept (someone that is being initiated). Youre right, the first lesson is to be indifferent Neophyte), the second is to accomplish with a reason (adept, Master). If you are suggesting that a Master is someone that has no mastery, I would say that you are missing the use of the word master altogether. And, BTW... you cannot master Chaos (but the point is to try).

The greatest lesson of Choronzon is to learn to overcome chaos and to be indifferent to it. It is a different kind of indifference. The kind of indifference that most mortals possess is the first vestment that the initiate destroys. The Heavenly flame is lit with this robe of indifference and the fool steps into the abyss with his flower. Then, the real effort to destroy indifference and understand chaos begins.

Most mortals aren't indifferent. They care a lot, cry a lot, etc. It's wired into them.
You can't expect to be able to completely change your psychology. The real trick to this subject, is to use the skills you already have to your advantage. Not to become someone else first.
You don't need to be indifferent to be an adept. Pick your motive: caring or uncaring. Serve yourself or others. Neither is right or wrong, but you've got to make up your mind. Or, you can do both in degrees.
Again, I don't see why you'd want to destroy indifference.

----------------True. The real trick is to recognize that you actually DO CARE, and therefor, are not merely a vessel for chaos. Also, reread what I stated: The greatest lesson of Choronzon is to learn to overcome chaos and to be indifferent to it. Indifference is actually part of my philosophy.

When a person studies magick, or the occult, what is the desired result? Is it to simply validate that they can do whatever they choose? No one in this age really needs to be told this (although there are those that are very restrained by conditioning that have yet to realize their own liberty).

When you consider what it is to be a "Master, or Adept" what does that make you think of? Are you mastering all the different ways in which you can act? That may be the case for most. If you think, however, that there is no thread... then you really would live in a world without consequence, and the fact is that you do live in a world of consequence.

The point of knowledge is to take control. This entire conversation is about what we are controlling. If you want to do chaos, you will not get far. If you want to get in line with order, then you will acquire the wealth that is promised you.

[inMalkuth]

Live and love and feel. Tomorrow this may be gone.

Live not because you are going to die,
But live as if you are going to live.

[Stukov]

I would say it's your zero cents on chaos magick because it is worthless. Sorry buddy.

I know I'm a bit late here, but please dont go into a thread to insult someone (you could have said 'sorry I don't think you grasp chaos magic' - and it wouldn't have been insulting). Thank you.

[inMalkuth]

THANK YOU [pray]

[chowderpope]

Yeah okay, no worries. I have added him to my ignore list so I won't be subjected to his wisdom anymore. [cool]

I just realized that's a feature. Now we good.

[inMalkuth]

In the West, we essentially have three strains of Chaos Magick.

The easiest one which is most familiar to people is the most popular, which is Judaism. Judaism doesnt even directly acknowledge Chaos, and they disguise the origin of its study by naming it Lucifer, Satan, and Serpent. You wont find the word Chaos used by them, and they actively encourage us not to even think about it. For the Jew, it represents pure evil, and the only valuable thing about it is conquering it. They demonize the other methods totally.

The next evolution is the Greek. In Christianity, we have the combination of Jewish with Greek initiation, and we accomplish the drama of the Christ. If you look closely at Christian symbolism, you will often find Christ standing upon the Serpent of Wisdom (in the Jewish system this is a demon) as a conqueror. This is how he rises from the dead; he was initiated in the old ways of the Ceremonial and Eleusinian way, and rose into a new life that defies Chaos and death. The Greeks had Chaos as the originator of the world, and the secret to their dealings with it are in the battle between the son of Chaos, Zeus, and the "titan" (his father), Chaos. Zeus overthrows Chaos and binds Him, thus establishing the Heavens and Order. HE will eventually destroy him completely (thereby providing for a perfect world, Heaven). This is not dissimilar to the Jewish version, and it is shown in Christianity by Christ conquering the temptations of Satan in the dessert, dying for man, and being resurrected, and providing a new Heaven and Earth.

The final, and perhaps original initiation into Chaos is the Egyptian. Egypt does not start with the Creation of the Universe from Chaos (for the Greeks, Chaos was the origin of analysis and therefore, the World). Egyptians tell a story of life in terms of Feminine/Mother and Masculine/Father, as the heroic Father is defeated and cast into death, the Son (Horus) overthrows the enemy of his Father (Set, Chaos God). It is still the same theme: overthrow Chaos and rise into life anew. However, from a magickal view, what Egyptian magick (and by inheritance, Chaos magick) provides, is the ability to understand the virtues of Chaos. Set is not Apep; He has a place and purpose amongst the Gods. They do not outright demonize and deny Set as being part of the process of knowledge. In doing this, they suggest that the Lunar emotional subconscious of Yesod is meant to be apprehended and organized; that emotions are meant to be felt, but also mastered. Chaos magicians recognize that there is no "one perspective" and are therefore free to choose the one they like. Whereas for the Greeks everything is tragedy and comedy, and that mortals are at the mercy of the indifference of the Gods, and the Jews only acknowledge the one path to righteousness through JHVH, Egyptians taught that we are these Gods, and that we are in command of our fate. This would also defy the Jewish premise that we must obey the singular JHVH and obey His laws and rules absolutely.

The result of being aware that I am in command of my emotion and can do what I choose as I see fit can become an attitude of indifference to the consequence of what I choose, which is not the reason for any of this. Even though Chaos teaches me that I am master of myself, the point of such mastery is still to overcome the chaotic world of flawed action. These initiates were not "Chaos magicians" in the modern sense; they strove for Order and civilization. They held valuable places among society. They werent simply "Doing what they will". They had purpose and drive, and it was for the greater good.

Doing what you will is the best advice from a maternal Goddess that recognizes that there are many paths to Maat. We are allowed this free will because it is necessary to prove dedication to our knowledge, and to what is good, by having choice to choose it. Thinking that liberty to simply make whatever decision suits a person is flawed, this is represented with the weighing of the soul in Egyptian death. We cannot escape that one day, our decisions and actions will be measured.

Its unfortunate that people mix these ideas into other ideas and wind up with no afterlife, and no awareness of any God or Ideal. This attitude promotes apathy and actual Chaos, when the original idea was to bring Order. It is also what keeps many candidates for actual initiation at the doorway of it, rather than being allowed inside.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Egypt does not start with the Creation of the Universe from Chaos

Incorrect...

Ptah , the Khemetic ( later called Egyptian ) creator god , stood on the mound ,
in the midst of the swirling waters of chaos , and spoke the words of creation...

Another story has been told , he stirred the waters of chaos with his staff...

All ideas of order over chaos , come from patriarchal based religions...

Science has documented the emanation of order from chaos , yet there is a
return principle inherent in that...think of a chaos fractal unfolding , then folding
back into itself , cycles upon cycles...

( CLICK ON IMAGE BELOW )

See The Serpent ?

Tell me honestly...what is your hidden agenda ?

[inMalkuth]

Yes, exactly. Ptah is not Chaos, although I see what you are saying. What I meant to say was that Chaos is not the rule of things. Chaos magick is about establishing order.

[inMalkuth]

My agenda isnt hidden. Id say its pretty obvious.