Original post: jonathon41uk
Hi
I'm looking into some of the Rosicrucian orders at the moment but am not sure about the differences between them or whether they are worth going for or not. I'm particularly interested in AMORC and Cofraternaty of the Rosy Cross (crcsite.org)
Jonathon
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Original post: jools
I don't know much about the Rosicrucians but apparently not many people are impressed by AMORC (Crowley was particularly scathing) so best avoid them.
j xxx
I don't know much about the Rosicrucians but apparently not many people are impressed by AMORC (Crowley was particularly scathing) so best avoid them.
j xxx
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Original post: Gavriel
I visit a Masonic site, and most of them seemed please with AMORC.
Peace.
I visit a Masonic site, and most of them seemed please with AMORC.
Peace.
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Original post: Samhain
[QUOTE=Gavriel]I visit a Masonic site, and most of them seemed please with AMORC.
Peace.[/QUOTE]
That should be warning enough.
[QUOTE=Gavriel]I visit a Masonic site, and most of them seemed please with AMORC.
Peace.[/QUOTE]
That should be warning enough.
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Original post: doh
Well, that was rather prejudiced. What's wrong with Masons? Is it because the achieve magic while still believing in Christ?
Well, that was rather prejudiced. What's wrong with Masons? Is it because the achieve magic while still believing in Christ?
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Original post: jonathon41uk
Does anyone know whether Qabalah is covered in the Rosicrucian orders?
Jonathon
Does anyone know whether Qabalah is covered in the Rosicrucian orders?
Jonathon
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Original post: Fra. Vincit Veritas
For that matter, saying that "not many people are impressed" with AMORC is an odd comment about an organisation that has been in existence for on for nearly a century and is (so far as I know) still the largest esoteric/mystical organisation in the world. Popularity and longevity don't necessarily mean much, but they at least suggest the organisation is not a complete scam.
Likewise, some would say that Crowley's opinions about AMORC (amongst other things) should not be given too much credence. One could suggest that Crowley's views of AMORC would have been coloured by him seeing it as a competitor in the same field. One might also suggest that Crowley would have needed to be a saint to watch with equanimity as AMROC became ever more prosperous and accumulated members even as his own organisations dwindled.
AMORC is not above criticism. One of the most common is that it is expensive. Others have criticised it for drip-feeding knowledge at too slow a rate, but then others say this is wiser in the long run. Some have criticised it for selling information that is now very widely available.
Perhaps it's not much of a recommendation, but my clear impression is that one is unlikely to come to any harm belonging to AMORC and one can benefit if the weekly monographs are assiduously studied.
You also mention the Confraternity of the Rose Cross (CR+C). This is basically an offshoot of AMORC, led by Gary L. Stewart who once was Imperator of AMORC (he claims he still is, since the office is for life). He left AMORC in circumstances that will probably never be clear to anyone outside the inner circle, but we know there were allegations of improper use of funds and a court case. This appears to be the only thing that has ever come close to being worthy of being called a scandal in the history of AMORC, and it seems it was actually more a storm in a teacup.
I believe that there are various differences of opinion between Stewart's CR+C and AMORC, some of which centre on changes which have been made to the monographs. According to Sewart, up to the 1990s AMORC was sending out monographs that were basically the same as those written by the founder, H.Spencer Lewis, starting in 1915. The monographs have now been significantly altered and it seems to be Stewart's view that the changes are not for the better. Indeed, he apparently believe they are contrary to some of the most fundamental principles of Rosicrucianism that date back several hundred years.
If you join the CR+C, Stewart says that what you get are monographs which have been modernised and added to, but which are, in essence, the same as those written by H.Spencer Lewis and are therefore consistent with historical Rosicrucianism rather than modern psychological views of mysticism.
As you will have discovered, the CR+C site has loads of information. AMORC also has a good site where you can get a good feel for the organisation. For example, you can read the current issue of the Rosicrucian Digest. No great secrets there, but it does give you an idea of the AMORC ethos.
And, yes, I am a member. Only been one for a year and unfortunately I signed up just as a slow-motion medical catastrophe involving with my wife started. This means the monographs have been piling up rather than being studied each week, so I can't give an honest opinon of how well the programme works. I am determined, however, to give it a fair trial: when I am able to do so, I will do all the preparatory work up to the First Degree Initiation, take it at the London Temple, then carry on until at least the point of the Second Degree Initiation. I figure that, by then, I should have some idea if the Order is worth more of my time and money.
I have thought of signing up with CR+C as well (which I believe both organisations accept), but I've decided that having two stacks of unread monographs gathering dust would just be silly. Nothing to stop anyone else doing this, though.
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For that matter, saying that "not many people are impressed" with AMORC is an odd comment about an organisation that has been in existence for on for nearly a century and is (so far as I know) still the largest esoteric/mystical organisation in the world. Popularity and longevity don't necessarily mean much, but they at least suggest the organisation is not a complete scam.
Likewise, some would say that Crowley's opinions about AMORC (amongst other things) should not be given too much credence. One could suggest that Crowley's views of AMORC would have been coloured by him seeing it as a competitor in the same field. One might also suggest that Crowley would have needed to be a saint to watch with equanimity as AMROC became ever more prosperous and accumulated members even as his own organisations dwindled.
AMORC is not above criticism. One of the most common is that it is expensive. Others have criticised it for drip-feeding knowledge at too slow a rate, but then others say this is wiser in the long run. Some have criticised it for selling information that is now very widely available.
Perhaps it's not much of a recommendation, but my clear impression is that one is unlikely to come to any harm belonging to AMORC and one can benefit if the weekly monographs are assiduously studied.
You also mention the Confraternity of the Rose Cross (CR+C). This is basically an offshoot of AMORC, led by Gary L. Stewart who once was Imperator of AMORC (he claims he still is, since the office is for life). He left AMORC in circumstances that will probably never be clear to anyone outside the inner circle, but we know there were allegations of improper use of funds and a court case. This appears to be the only thing that has ever come close to being worthy of being called a scandal in the history of AMORC, and it seems it was actually more a storm in a teacup.
I believe that there are various differences of opinion between Stewart's CR+C and AMORC, some of which centre on changes which have been made to the monographs. According to Sewart, up to the 1990s AMORC was sending out monographs that were basically the same as those written by the founder, H.Spencer Lewis, starting in 1915. The monographs have now been significantly altered and it seems to be Stewart's view that the changes are not for the better. Indeed, he apparently believe they are contrary to some of the most fundamental principles of Rosicrucianism that date back several hundred years.
If you join the CR+C, Stewart says that what you get are monographs which have been modernised and added to, but which are, in essence, the same as those written by H.Spencer Lewis and are therefore consistent with historical Rosicrucianism rather than modern psychological views of mysticism.
As you will have discovered, the CR+C site has loads of information. AMORC also has a good site where you can get a good feel for the organisation. For example, you can read the current issue of the Rosicrucian Digest. No great secrets there, but it does give you an idea of the AMORC ethos.
And, yes, I am a member. Only been one for a year and unfortunately I signed up just as a slow-motion medical catastrophe involving with my wife started. This means the monographs have been piling up rather than being studied each week, so I can't give an honest opinon of how well the programme works. I am determined, however, to give it a fair trial: when I am able to do so, I will do all the preparatory work up to the First Degree Initiation, take it at the London Temple, then carry on until at least the point of the Second Degree Initiation. I figure that, by then, I should have some idea if the Order is worth more of my time and money.
I have thought of signing up with CR+C as well (which I believe both organisations accept), but I've decided that having two stacks of unread monographs gathering dust would just be silly. Nothing to stop anyone else doing this, though.
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Original post: Fra. Vincit Veritas
[QUOTE=jonathon41uk]Does anyone know whether Qabalah is covered in the Rosicrucian orders?[/QUOTE]
On the CR+C site: Related Studies in Kabala.
Unsure about AMORC, but one of the books in their Rosicrucian Library is Sepher Yezirah, so I assume it shows up at some point. I can say that it definitely isn't something you encounter in the first year's monographs.
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[QUOTE=jonathon41uk]Does anyone know whether Qabalah is covered in the Rosicrucian orders?[/QUOTE]
On the CR+C site: Related Studies in Kabala.
Unsure about AMORC, but one of the books in their Rosicrucian Library is Sepher Yezirah, so I assume it shows up at some point. I can say that it definitely isn't something you encounter in the first year's monographs.
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Original post: Winnipeg1919
[QUOTE=doh]Well, that was rather prejudiced. What's wrong with Masons? Is it because the achieve magic while still believing in Christ?[/QUOTE]
Not true Doh.
I am a Mason (AF&AM) and I don't believe in Christ. Neither do the Jewish, Hindu, or Buddhist members of my Lodge. Two of us are Wiccan.
The requirements for becoming a Mason only include a belief in the Divine, not a particular aspect of the Divine. On the web, I have encountered Masons who were Thelemites, Asatru, and various shades of Neo-Pagan.
To get back to the original question. Many modern Freemasons are aware of the Rosicrucian influences on the Craft, but are unaware of the various groups claiming Rosicrucian descent. The shades of meaning have been lost to most since they do not study the occult.
[QUOTE=doh]Well, that was rather prejudiced. What's wrong with Masons? Is it because the achieve magic while still believing in Christ?[/QUOTE]
Not true Doh.
I am a Mason (AF&AM) and I don't believe in Christ. Neither do the Jewish, Hindu, or Buddhist members of my Lodge. Two of us are Wiccan.
The requirements for becoming a Mason only include a belief in the Divine, not a particular aspect of the Divine. On the web, I have encountered Masons who were Thelemites, Asatru, and various shades of Neo-Pagan.
To get back to the original question. Many modern Freemasons are aware of the Rosicrucian influences on the Craft, but are unaware of the various groups claiming Rosicrucian descent. The shades of meaning have been lost to most since they do not study the occult.
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Original post: Serpentiferous
Yes, Quabalah is covered at AMORC. However, I think it is part of the Martinist order which you can join once you reach 1st Temple and take your initiation (approximately one year, plus whatever time you have to spend on the waiting list.). The Martinist teachings are all in-person though, so you would have to have to have the time and transportation to attend meetings. Don't take this as absolute fact though... I'll be taking my 1st degree initiation in November at which time I'll have the opportunity to get more information.
The comment about drip feeding information that is readily availible elsewhere is somewhat correct. At least in the first year of study. The advantage is that you have someone walking you through the basics from start to finish. Most of the exercises so far have been things I have already done, but one of the reasons I joined was for the discipline in study so I'm not complaining. Pretty much anything you would want to learn is covered at some point, but you might have to wait many years to get to the real meat. Until then it's basic exercises, philosophy, history, science, and introspection.
There was animostiy between Crowley and AMORC. I would have to dig out one of my old digests, but the history of the Orders was covered and there is bad blood between the two groups. As for Masons, I don't remember AMORC's stand on it, but some RC groups will not take you if you are a Mason.
I'm just a well of information tonight, aren't I? lol Sorry, I'm half asleep at the moment.
Yes, Quabalah is covered at AMORC. However, I think it is part of the Martinist order which you can join once you reach 1st Temple and take your initiation (approximately one year, plus whatever time you have to spend on the waiting list.). The Martinist teachings are all in-person though, so you would have to have to have the time and transportation to attend meetings. Don't take this as absolute fact though... I'll be taking my 1st degree initiation in November at which time I'll have the opportunity to get more information.
The comment about drip feeding information that is readily availible elsewhere is somewhat correct. At least in the first year of study. The advantage is that you have someone walking you through the basics from start to finish. Most of the exercises so far have been things I have already done, but one of the reasons I joined was for the discipline in study so I'm not complaining. Pretty much anything you would want to learn is covered at some point, but you might have to wait many years to get to the real meat. Until then it's basic exercises, philosophy, history, science, and introspection.
There was animostiy between Crowley and AMORC. I would have to dig out one of my old digests, but the history of the Orders was covered and there is bad blood between the two groups. As for Masons, I don't remember AMORC's stand on it, but some RC groups will not take you if you are a Mason.
I'm just a well of information tonight, aren't I? lol Sorry, I'm half asleep at the moment.
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Original post: Fra. Vincit Veritas
According to AMORC's book "Questions and Answers" (2001) "...there are Rosicrucians who are Freemasons and vice versa, as there are no incompatibilities between these two movements."
AMORC also always makes a point of saying that membership of other organisations is not a bar to belonging to AMORC.
With regard to Crowley and H.Spencer Lewis's AMORC, Richard Kaczynski goes into this in some detail in "Perdurabo", his biography of Crowley (starting page 396).
Essentially, it seems that the head of the OTO made Lewis an honorary 8th Degree member in 1921. This was a recognition of Lewis' Masonic grades. It was an honorary degree and Lewis never actually went through an OTO initiation or took any instruction.
Lewis, in developing AMORC drew on a number of sources (as esoteric organisations always do), among which were Crowley and the Golden Dawn. This was at least partly responsible for the head of an organisation based in Pennsylvania called the Fraternitatis Rosae Crucis deciding that Lewis was following the teachings of a black magic sex magician. What followed was the common sort of esoteric order pissing contest.
In late 1935 or early 1936, when Crowley was the big OTO cheese, he decided to get involved in this spat.
As far as Crowley was concerned, Lewis' sole authority stemmed from his honorary OTO membership. Crowley was the head of the OTO and Lewis was acting, according to Crowley, "entirely without my knowledge and approval, in complete disregard of, and in opposition to, my principles."
Crowley's view was that, since Lewis owed everything he had to the OTO, he should give it all back to the OTO (or, in other words, hand it over to Crowley). At the time, AMORC's assets amounted to what would be about $7 million today.
Lewis -- unsurprisingly -- refused. His position was that, even if Crowley did run the OTO and the Rites of Memphis and Mizraim, AMORC was Rosicrucian, not Masonic. And anyway, Masons in the USA didn't recognise either the OTO or Memphis and Mizraim. Crowley, according to Lewis, was just someone running a spurious British order and making claims without foundation.
Kaczynski mentions Crowley being prepared to go to the Federal Trade Commission and even to visit California in order to get his hands on the goods. He also quotes a memorandum Crowley circulated in which he attempts to raise money for the trip and lawyers.
But, as often happened with Crowley, this grand scheme seems to have run out of steam at some point and nothing came of it.
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According to AMORC's book "Questions and Answers" (2001) "...there are Rosicrucians who are Freemasons and vice versa, as there are no incompatibilities between these two movements."
AMORC also always makes a point of saying that membership of other organisations is not a bar to belonging to AMORC.
With regard to Crowley and H.Spencer Lewis's AMORC, Richard Kaczynski goes into this in some detail in "Perdurabo", his biography of Crowley (starting page 396).
Essentially, it seems that the head of the OTO made Lewis an honorary 8th Degree member in 1921. This was a recognition of Lewis' Masonic grades. It was an honorary degree and Lewis never actually went through an OTO initiation or took any instruction.
Lewis, in developing AMORC drew on a number of sources (as esoteric organisations always do), among which were Crowley and the Golden Dawn. This was at least partly responsible for the head of an organisation based in Pennsylvania called the Fraternitatis Rosae Crucis deciding that Lewis was following the teachings of a black magic sex magician. What followed was the common sort of esoteric order pissing contest.
In late 1935 or early 1936, when Crowley was the big OTO cheese, he decided to get involved in this spat.
As far as Crowley was concerned, Lewis' sole authority stemmed from his honorary OTO membership. Crowley was the head of the OTO and Lewis was acting, according to Crowley, "entirely without my knowledge and approval, in complete disregard of, and in opposition to, my principles."
Crowley's view was that, since Lewis owed everything he had to the OTO, he should give it all back to the OTO (or, in other words, hand it over to Crowley). At the time, AMORC's assets amounted to what would be about $7 million today.
Lewis -- unsurprisingly -- refused. His position was that, even if Crowley did run the OTO and the Rites of Memphis and Mizraim, AMORC was Rosicrucian, not Masonic. And anyway, Masons in the USA didn't recognise either the OTO or Memphis and Mizraim. Crowley, according to Lewis, was just someone running a spurious British order and making claims without foundation.
Kaczynski mentions Crowley being prepared to go to the Federal Trade Commission and even to visit California in order to get his hands on the goods. He also quotes a memorandum Crowley circulated in which he attempts to raise money for the trip and lawyers.
But, as often happened with Crowley, this grand scheme seems to have run out of steam at some point and nothing came of it.
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Original post: Samhain
[QUOTE=doh]Well, that was rather prejudiced. What's wrong with Masons? Is it because the achieve magic while still believing in Christ?[/QUOTE]
There's nothing wrong with masons per se, and as Winnipeg1919 said, they aren't all christians. But most of the ones that I've met seem to see Masonry as a social club that only has secrets in order to bind the group together. They seem uncomfortable with anything they perceive as occult. So if masons like a group, my tendency is to wonder if it's really teaching any useable knowledge. That may be unfair to masons, but it's based on my experiences with masonic types.
[QUOTE=doh]Well, that was rather prejudiced. What's wrong with Masons? Is it because the achieve magic while still believing in Christ?[/QUOTE]
There's nothing wrong with masons per se, and as Winnipeg1919 said, they aren't all christians. But most of the ones that I've met seem to see Masonry as a social club that only has secrets in order to bind the group together. They seem uncomfortable with anything they perceive as occult. So if masons like a group, my tendency is to wonder if it's really teaching any useable knowledge. That may be unfair to masons, but it's based on my experiences with masonic types.
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Original post: Orion
Try this link:
http://users.boardnation.com/~salemos/index.php
This is a Rosicrucian Community Forum that discussess several of the many different R+C currents in existence. It also includes related aspects of occultism etc: You might find it helpful in gaining a perspective in deciding which particular direction you need to go in!
Peace
Orion
Try this link:
http://users.boardnation.com/~salemos/index.php
This is a Rosicrucian Community Forum that discussess several of the many different R+C currents in existence. It also includes related aspects of occultism etc: You might find it helpful in gaining a perspective in deciding which particular direction you need to go in!
Peace
Orion
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Original post: fiat_lux_777
93
Although now in abeyance (so-to-speak!) I never had any problems being both a Freemason as well as a member of OMCE (CR+C).
One thing I particularly enjoy about OMCE - remittance is by donation, no dues so to speak! And they don't demit you if you are unable to afford to donate.
93 93/93
Todd
93
Although now in abeyance (so-to-speak!) I never had any problems being both a Freemason as well as a member of OMCE (CR+C).
One thing I particularly enjoy about OMCE - remittance is by donation, no dues so to speak! And they don't demit you if you are unable to afford to donate.
93 93/93
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Original post: Ronin
I left AMORC after being there close to a year. It was pretty expensive, but that wasn't the main reason that made me leave. I felt like the organization wasn't serious enough. It seemed like they worried more about their image to the public, and how many more members they could add. I also didn't feel comfortable with the fact that as soon as you became a member you were given the title Brother/Sister of the Rose Cross. That is not a title that can't be given freely it has to be earned. Anyways I left AMORC and joined the Fraternitas Rosae Crucis, which I have been overjoyed with.
I left AMORC after being there close to a year. It was pretty expensive, but that wasn't the main reason that made me leave. I felt like the organization wasn't serious enough. It seemed like they worried more about their image to the public, and how many more members they could add. I also didn't feel comfortable with the fact that as soon as you became a member you were given the title Brother/Sister of the Rose Cross. That is not a title that can't be given freely it has to be earned. Anyways I left AMORC and joined the Fraternitas Rosae Crucis, which I have been overjoyed with.