How are drugs of help?

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How are drugs of help?

Post by Occult Forum Archive »

Original post: Noxlux

Hi,

I never used drugs to improve my magicks ... or at least almost never, and my main belief is that they would be counterproductive as I would loose to much control over the process.

However I note that some other magickians do use drugs. Haschish seems quite common, and Salvia has recently been suggested.

My question is what is the costs and benefits tradeoff with using drugs for magick?

(Please replies based on _experience_:-))

Nox

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How are drugs of help?

Post by Occult Forum Archive »

Original post: palindroem

I have occasionally taken a hit or two of weed just prior to magickal work. It can help me feel "magickal", more tuned-in, and enhance my visualization.

Its not necassary. I, personally, only do it occasionally specifically because I don't want to develop a need or crutch for it.

But it can (has and does) enhance some parts of the ritual. It does also make it harder to keep my mind focused . . thats a big draw back.

my 2 cents.

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How are drugs of help?

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Original post: LadyHydralisk

Well, salvia is used in Lakota beliefs as a banish-negativity herb. It purifies the trinity of the mind, body and soul.

Sweetgrass, on the other hand, is used to attract and please spirits of various sorts.

I really don't see any drawbacks to using a little herbal smoke or tea, but personally and I mean, on a VERY personal level, I think using hard drugs such as LSD and modern Marijuana would be a huge drawback to my technique. I think it's great for other people though. Everyone knows their own body best.

For myself, drugs and alcohol make me murderous, sadistic, maniacal and prone to random spontaneous demonic evocation :D

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How are drugs of help?

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Original post: azi dahaka

being an incredibly nervous person, a little weed really comes in handy on certain occasions...sometimes my mind is racing before a ritual and i find myself thinking about everything except what i should...in this case it actually helps my concentration...

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How are drugs of help?

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Original post: Defgarden

While I've found weed to make me a little slow and unmotivated to do ritual, I find it does make me an open audience for realizations and trance with music.

Salvia is great for those who want a reality smashing wake up call. With this stuff, "you've seen it once, you've seem them all" does not apply. You won't have any concious control past a certain dosage, but it does induce sensations of being on a spiritual/magickal/dreamlike journey for a few minutes. If you aren't in tune with your subconious and have a pretty good working knowledge of your subconious issues, desires, and fears, chances are you won't have a good time on this. Same goes for Magick Mushrooms, and LSD for that last bit.

I bet you probably could get some pretty strange insights doing ritual on acid, so long as you didn't take way too much. In fact, woah, I'm getting ideas.

In general though, I don't think most drugs would be totally useful during your actual casting and ritual or whatnot, but they could, under proper procedure and usage, lead to some interesting revelations and insights.

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How are drugs of help?

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Original post: pAmphAge

Heh. This is something I've had extensive experience with, and well--overall I highly recommend at least some experimentation, especially when you feel your studies and progress are going too slowly. They will definitely add punch to anything you do. Mainly I'm talking about the stronger hallucinogens, whereas pot makes a much slighter difference to magickal workings (though for some things like scrying, it can make all the difference in the world for some people.)

Here's a very brief rundown of my experiences (This covers about a 15 year period--with about 75% of the time involved in occult/sprituality. the 25% downtime helps me ground, so there have been times when I hadn't done "magick" in over a year.)

LSD: Ok, this is the granddaddy beast of all magickal drugs, IMHO. Powerful acid *alone* can induce other realm travel, contact with other entities, cosmic oneness (verging on the edge of nirvana itself!), etc. So it's not to be taken lightly, and I reccomend dozens of "regular" trips before one decides to throw magick into the mix. Once you have some sort of feel for your "HGA" or whatever you want to call it, I believe it's safe to start experimenting with various types of magick with LSD. I've found the potency of such workings are not to be denied...though strangely the results, as powerful as they do finally manifest, seem to take the LONGEST to arrive, so it can be frustrating feeling you performed a ritual perfectly (and you probably did), but not seeing the physical results in the time frame you expected. However, never fear, it will come and far more intensely than you expected...just when you least expect it.

Mushrooms: same deal really, except less intense, and doesn't last as long. There are subtle "vibrational" differences between the two as well. But really, while I always swore by LSD, I knew many others who swore by mushrooms, so it's a matter of choice here.

Peyote: Wish I had first hand experience here. Would still love to get my hands on some.

Salvia Divinorum: Well, while she really deserves an entire book about her, I should at least give a quick rundown. As Defgarden mentioned, sometimes you seem completely w/o conscious control on a Salvia trip. My experience has been that (at least if you've made solid contact with your HGA), is that happens because you ARE being entirely controlled by your HGA, and the Karma set in motion *before* the actual trip. The way I use Salvia is to set up everything in a ritual perfectly, and only use it for the big bang at the end...i.e. to charge a talisman or evoke a spirit. If your Will is strong enough, you should then have a powerful experience...if not you may find yourself doing something COMPLETELY different than what you had planned...in which case your HGA wants to show you something else to learn. Some people say its Saliva herself that does this...personally, after working so many years with my HGA (which I'm really starting to believe is just myself from the future), I feel like it's really more of the HGA than a spirit called Salvia. I mean imagine how easy it would be to confuse the magick of one's own HGA for a drug one is taking, if one hasn't already become familiar with one's HGA. Either that or Salvia seems to work closely WITH the HGA. At anyrate, I know when I evoke spirits, that there is no trace of Salvia, so at the very least she seems content to let me work in peace. Even so, Salvia, or the HGA itself, is always full of suprises. Even when you get more conscious control of a deep Salvia trip (which like anything is a developed ability), everyone once in awhile......you will totally find yourself doing something you didn't plan!!

Mary Jane-- Ahh MJ. I find she is a relaxing way to assimiliate and enjoy many things I've done, and also is fun to create talismans on and setup rituals, etc. I don't prefer her for really performing actual rituals, as she muddles my head a bit, makes me forgetful, etc. I've had good experiences mixing Salvia and MJ though for really day-long creative bursts of magick and art.

Final note. Drugs: Powerful tool or magickal crutch? Well, obviously that depends on who is using them. The fact is that if you have a wand, chalice, sword, or any other magickal item you use, that ALSO is a crutch to a certain extent, no matter how useful it may be. Hell, our entire physical incarnation is a crutch, if you want to look at it that way. The key, as in everything, is balance.

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How are drugs of help?

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Original post: Horus

Bhang has been employed before to help students study holy scriptures. That being said, I find a joint often sheds new insight in the study of complicated magickal text and whatnot. Although you have to be careful, my notes often look more like art than notes, hehe.

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Re: How are drugs of help?

Post by 420 »

A synthetic cannabinoid blew my doors of perception farther open than any magical training or ritual ever did.
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Re: How are drugs of help?

Post by EternalReturn »

Have you done any preparations, mantra, meditations or anything during consummation?

What I'm asking is to give some more details on the procedure if you'd like.

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Re: How are drugs of help?

Post by 420 »

Unfortunately, it was recreational use that blew open my doors of perception. And it was legal for such a short time that I never got the chance to use it ritually. I'm not even sure which synthetic cannabinoid it was, but was sold under the brand name Crystal Skull.
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Re: How are drugs of help?

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Hah that really sounds hardcore, no wonder it blew open your doors of perception [rofl]

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Re: How are drugs of help?

Post by MAZOHIR »

To Mega Therion thought it helped him a lot (MAGICK), especially when doing certain acts to VENUS.

He's the authority on using drugs and magick together. In 777, compiled by Mathers but arranged as a book and sold by the Beast, there are attributions of certain drugs to certain elements, Planets and Zodiacal Signs, to be used when working those aspects of the Tree.
Mind-Kontrol and Drugs are the LAW, drugs under CIA MK-ULTRA

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Re: How are drugs of help?

Post by Rin »

My experience is that they're more detrimental than beneficial, by far.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: How are drugs of help?

Post by Maya The Generator »

My experience is nice and not so nice. Acupuncture is not fused good with weed. It made me experience wierd energy fluctuation in my body and around it. On the other hand I find weed good after some relaxing and closing of rituals when I purify(lack of better term I think) myself. It is harder after weed to keep focus but there is a reward if you keep it.
Illusion is the first of the pleasures.
The bomb of entropic chaos.
If some assholes levels a twelve gauge your way, you drain him, skin him and bash in his skull. Self-preservation is vital part of humanity after all. My favorite part, in fact
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Re: How are drugs of help?

Post by Procel »

Rin wrote:My experience is that they're more detrimental than beneficial, by far.
That is my experience as well.

Crowley used and advocated drugs throughout much of his life but when he was older he changed his opinion on drugs and decided that what he had thought was the drugs helping him was in fact the drugs deceiving him. Should we believe the bulk of his writing, or his last written opinions? Did he change his mind to a correct view or to an embittered old man's view? That's any one's guess.

I have never tried ayahuasca but from what people tell me it is a deeply spiritual experience. While I am at this point in my life drug free (with the exception of caffeine, man's most consumed psychoactive substance) I don't shut off the possibility that there may be something there. I can't rule it out, all I can do is share my perspective that I think most drugs are a waste of time.

When I took psychadelics I was younger and not as in tune as I thought I was. There is something real in the psilocybin experience and there can be in the lsd experience too, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't getting much more than a good time out of the deal. Would I have had more genuine experiences with a better base of knowledge? Maybe. I know that when I was trying to teach myself astral projection from books at a time when I was using psychadelics a few times a week, I experienced things that scared me off the path for a long time. I was 15 and that was a long time ago. I know I feel significantly more in my meditation now. When I do Chi work, I feel differently that I did when I was a kid. I stopped using substances over decades. Dropping hard drugs, then alcohol, then eventually even giving up marijuana; and I feel a significant boost in my power without pot. Is it the lack of drugs, or the added years of work? Again that is anyone's guess but I'm not about to hit a bong and see what edge I may lose.

I don't see any point in smoking pot again, but I wouldn't rule out taking ayahuasca under the right circumstances. I also do still have fantasies about dropping acid again and I haven't done that since the late 80s or early 90s. The lure is still there, but I can't see when or under what circumstances I'd indulge it.

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Re: How are drugs of help?

Post by Maya The Generator »

I must say that I agree with little part of Procel said. I see how many things I droped from my childhood-teens-adulthood adventure. The first was alcohol that now I only drink in few occasions a year(some close friends and family related events) but strong head is still there xD Then there was marihuana and tabacco, I stoped smoking cigs 2 months ago, feeling 100% better. As to MJ I just love her but I see that my new life style changes quanity I consume. I feel like it is getting stronger for me xD often I find myself too stoned(never ever I thought that would be possible xd). Every other drugs(yeah, there is a list) I just recommend for one use for the experience sake.

praise teh Sun [cool]
Illusion is the first of the pleasures.
The bomb of entropic chaos.
If some assholes levels a twelve gauge your way, you drain him, skin him and bash in his skull. Self-preservation is vital part of humanity after all. My favorite part, in fact
My mind is telling me NOOO but my BODY, MY BODY is telling me YEAS

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Re: How are drugs of help?

Post by cyberdemon »

I'm an advocate of recreational drug use by all means, but under no circumstances should they be used for anything important, such as ceremonial magic rituals. That's why they're called recreational. To some extent, maybe, they're alright. Cannabis/marijuana is a nice relaxant, pure amphetamines may be stimulant to getting things done.. but that's it.

Psychedelics are completely a big no. They may help spiritual growth but it's all internal and in your head, working off knowledge and concepts that you already have in you. Tripping is fun and so on, but..

The only psychedelic that possibly may have actual use is DMT. It is the same drug that's released by your brain at the time of death - perhaps it is a catalyst or an intermediate between the quantum shift of the soul from the here to the there.

As for synthetic cannabinoids, JWH-018 is a perfect feeling. But that's all it is, a feeling.
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Re: How are drugs of help?

Post by the_spiral »

Oh boy, I could probably write a book on this. I went through a HUGE drug phase in my late teens. I lived in an experimental artists' collective with several Wiccans, self-proclaimed shamans and other assorted occultists involved in our scene, and we mixed drugs with magic, ecstatic ritual practice and art making on a regular basis. (There may or may not have been a few trips to Burning Man as well, haha.) My own experiences were with weed, LSD, mushrooms, ecstasy, MDA, DMT, salvia, opium, kratom, peyote, mescaline, and...I don't remember what else. I also tried cocaine once or twice and truly hated it. I made it through this slightly embarrassing phase of life with most of my brain cells intact and I'm now a respectable boring wife, mother and career professional.

Overall I had some memorable experiences but they paled in comparison to the results I achieved once I left that scene and started practicing intensive yoga, meditation, Reiki and vegetarianism. I see drugs as a shortcut—they may open up your spiritual horizons in some ways, but without the necessary discipline, discernment, and paradigmatic framework to contextualize your experiences you really have no way of interpreting what you're seeing, let alone applying it in a proactive or positive way to your own development. And when your consciousness is that altered it becomes difficult to discern genuine magical revelations from the chatter of your own subconscious or the hallucinatory effects of the drug itself. Add that to the considerable side effects and health risks and it seems to me like one of the least reliable ways of developing one's abilities. Let's just say I saw MANY more burnouts, casualties, and cautionary tales than I saw people who achieved long-term magical or spiritual evolution using drugs. It's a fine line between cracking open your psyche and summoning the ancient reptilian gods, and being just another filthy crazy person babbling nonsense to tourists on the Sunset Strip.
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Re: How are drugs of help?

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Overall I had some memorable experiences but they paled in comparison to the results I achieved once I left that scene and started practicing intensive yoga, meditation, Reiki and vegetarianism. I see drugs as a shortcut—they may open up your spiritual horizons in some ways, but without the necessary discipline, discernment, and paradigmatic framework to contextualize your experiences you really have no way of interpreting what you're seeing, let alone applying it in a proactive or positive way to your own development. And when your consciousness is that altered it becomes difficult to discern genuine magical revelations from the chatter of your own subconscious or the hallucinatory effects of the drug itself. Add that to the considerable side effects and health risks and it seems to me like one of the least reliable ways of developing one's abilities. Let's just say I saw MANY more burnouts, casualties, and cautionary tales than I saw people who achieved long-term magical or spiritual evolution using drugs. It's a fine line between cracking open your psyche and summoning the ancient reptilian gods, and being just another filthy crazy person babbling nonsense to tourists on the Sunset Strip.
Well said.
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'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
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cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

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Re: How are drugs of help?

Post by Nahemah »

The never ending drug debate again. [crazy]

Shamanic practioners use drugs and have done so quite successfully for millenia though, cultural norms vary greatly between societies and will colour perceptions, so Immv, of course.

It's a matter for the individual to decide and there are as many positive arguments [and various long histories of traditional uses ], as there are negative.
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Re: How are drugs of help?

Post by Rin »

In certain limited and highly specific cultural contexts, yes. And it's worth pointing out that something having been done for a long time doesn't change the reality of the risk/reward ratio.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: How are drugs of help?

Post by the_spiral »

Not to mention today's synthetic drugs are much more potent and less regulated than drugs used in traditional shamanic practices, and those practices involved careful selection of worthy novices, extensive training periods, and guidance by elders and still carried considerable risks. But yeah, it's everyone's prerogative to go for it if they think they can handle it. Not my brain cells [thumbup]
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Re: How are drugs of help?

Post by Nahemah »

Thank you both for your balanced perspectives.

For anything in life worth having, we must be prepared take risks, it seems.

What fits one may not suit another, so the best road is the considered and informed one, with experiental evidence often proving most invaluable. [thumbup]
"He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel."

Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.

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Re: How are drugs of help?

Post by Mandrake998 »

I've found the right drug in the right dose can be helpful. The only problem is that if 'stuff' happens during a ritual you're sometimes left wondering how much of it was due to the drugs and how much of it was due to the magick. Jonathan Back's new book Beelzebub's Butterflies discusses drugs, both as a way of increasing mystical experience and the spiritual dimension behind a lot of addictions.

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Re: How are drugs of help?

Post by Petrichor »

Drugs can be helpful to show how much can be acheived in terms of imagination, concentration, sensitivity, intelligence, perception, empathy, etc. The trick is to reproduce those effects without them. Come-downs, hangovers and flashbacks are counter-productive and being high always leaves an impression that what you've seen can be that, hallucination. Yes, it MAY be beneficial to try several different drugs while doing different things (meditating, dancing, ceremonial magick, making love, etc.) but once you get it, why to keep doing it? I know some people who have reduced their drug intake and while they speak highly about drugs, they rarely take them. You know, what's the point? For me, if you conduct an experiment in a truly scientific way then you should reduce unnecessary or potentially disruptive factors. I keep wondering, for example, what's the value of deeply symbolic dreams after drug intake, when those dreams don't happen when someone's abstains? When you don't take anything and something like that happens then you know that your subconsciousness really tries to tell you something. If you have them all the time, how can you tell the difference? The same goes for other stuff... Just, you know, for the sake of clarity. For me, different esoteric practices give me more then enough of excitement and information to process. Just having a hightened senses in everyday life is enough to discourage me from even drinking alcohol save for rare and special occasions.

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