Original post: eatsbugs
How much of paganism and wicca is dealing with new age thought these days (i.e., The Secret, homeopathy, etc.)? I've been hearing that more and more pagans are turning into metaphysicists by default, which I think is a load of crap. Actually, though I consider myself really skeptical, I am nearly insulted to be grouped together with crystal-waving new agey people. Fluffy would be one word for them, but I know some that are severely dedicated to their practices and take them very seriously.
So, to restate: How much of paganism is becoming new age?
New Age vs. Paganism
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New Age vs. Paganism
Original post: NachtSorcier
[QUOTE=eatsbugs;362126]How much of paganism is becoming new age?[/QUOTE]
Only the part that is being capitalized on by authors who want to ensnare people into buying their books by making Paganism look easy and "majickal" in a very fluffy newagey way.
Real Paganism will always exist as long as its adherents do, but there will also always be people looking in the wrong place for an easy path and those looking for a quick buck.
[QUOTE=eatsbugs;362126]How much of paganism is becoming new age?[/QUOTE]
Only the part that is being capitalized on by authors who want to ensnare people into buying their books by making Paganism look easy and "majickal" in a very fluffy newagey way.
Real Paganism will always exist as long as its adherents do, but there will also always be people looking in the wrong place for an easy path and those looking for a quick buck.
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New Age vs. Paganism
Original post: Venefica
I see New Age like this, it is a tradition that have scooped up ideas from many different paths, but not looked very deep at any of them. So it is not so much Paganism becoming New Age as New Age borrowing from Paganism. I practice both and get much out out both.
Think of it this way. Anime and manga is a fun thing. A Pagan would be like somone that are deeply into Japanese culture, that may or may not like anime and manga as a part of the modern Japanese expression. A New Ager would be somone that love anime and manga and believe that is the whole of Japanese culture. They might learn a bit of it, even learn to speak a little Japanese but what they learn is rather shallow.
I however think New Age is a good thing, not all is interested in years and years of study to practice the occult. New Age give nice, shallow but useful practices that can be used almost immediately. But this have nothing to do with Paganism.
As for metaphysics, are not all magick about metaphysics, how the world around us, seen and unseen work?
I see New Age like this, it is a tradition that have scooped up ideas from many different paths, but not looked very deep at any of them. So it is not so much Paganism becoming New Age as New Age borrowing from Paganism. I practice both and get much out out both.
Think of it this way. Anime and manga is a fun thing. A Pagan would be like somone that are deeply into Japanese culture, that may or may not like anime and manga as a part of the modern Japanese expression. A New Ager would be somone that love anime and manga and believe that is the whole of Japanese culture. They might learn a bit of it, even learn to speak a little Japanese but what they learn is rather shallow.
I however think New Age is a good thing, not all is interested in years and years of study to practice the occult. New Age give nice, shallow but useful practices that can be used almost immediately. But this have nothing to do with Paganism.
As for metaphysics, are not all magick about metaphysics, how the world around us, seen and unseen work?
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New Age vs. Paganism
Original post: Winnipeg1919
The influx of people that started in the 90's with the movie The Craft, and continued with Buffy, Practical Magic, and Charmed is overwhelmingly New Age.
Fortunately, they do not tend to stay very long and when they do they self-identify quite easily.
New Agers tend to be very trendy. When every one talked about Reiki, Fung Shui, Wicca, or The Secret, they were into it and a master of it after a month's study. As the fad changes to something else they move on.
New Agers seldom progress in skill or knowledge of any of the things that they "study" and never look under the hood to find that The Secret isn't new or secret. The few who are more curious learn about the depth of the subject (whatever it is) and move into the realm of serious study. At this point, they stop being New Age.
The local New Age club had me out to do a couple of lectures on Wicca and Magick. Their response was quite predictable. Out of twenty or so people, half a dozen wanted to join the Coven that I serve. I gave them contact information, and heard back from two. We never saw either of them at the group, not even for an open ritual.
My favourite was the guy who said that I should teach Magick. He missed that part of the leadership duties in my lecture.
The influx of people that started in the 90's with the movie The Craft, and continued with Buffy, Practical Magic, and Charmed is overwhelmingly New Age.
Fortunately, they do not tend to stay very long and when they do they self-identify quite easily.
New Agers tend to be very trendy. When every one talked about Reiki, Fung Shui, Wicca, or The Secret, they were into it and a master of it after a month's study. As the fad changes to something else they move on.
New Agers seldom progress in skill or knowledge of any of the things that they "study" and never look under the hood to find that The Secret isn't new or secret. The few who are more curious learn about the depth of the subject (whatever it is) and move into the realm of serious study. At this point, they stop being New Age.
The local New Age club had me out to do a couple of lectures on Wicca and Magick. Their response was quite predictable. Out of twenty or so people, half a dozen wanted to join the Coven that I serve. I gave them contact information, and heard back from two. We never saw either of them at the group, not even for an open ritual.
My favourite was the guy who said that I should teach Magick. He missed that part of the leadership duties in my lecture.
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New Age vs. Paganism
Original post: nechesh
Paganism is a pretty broad term. Bonewitz breaks it down into 3 sub-groups, Paleopaganism, Mesopaganism and Neopaganism. Personally i think even this breakdown is far too simplistic, though i assume that for the most part we are talking about Neopaganism here. In that case it has always been New Age.
Paganism is a pretty broad term. Bonewitz breaks it down into 3 sub-groups, Paleopaganism, Mesopaganism and Neopaganism. Personally i think even this breakdown is far too simplistic, though i assume that for the most part we are talking about Neopaganism here. In that case it has always been New Age.
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New Age vs. Paganism
Original post: Venefica
I think pepole talk to much down on New Age and equate New Age practitioner to not serious. This simply is not right. While some New Age practitioners are just flaky, very many take what they do very seriously, and do study and progress with it. Sure there are those that just follow what is trendy, but there is allot that find one path they like and stick with it. Chrystal Healing for example is called New Age, well I am very serious about my work with a crystals and have worked with them for several years. New Age is a good path that pepole can learn allot from. Sure it have it's flakes, but so do all areas of the occult. It is not so that New Agers that continue to study grow up and stop being New Agers. New Agers that continue to study become more skilled New Agers.
I think pepole talk to much down on New Age and equate New Age practitioner to not serious. This simply is not right. While some New Age practitioners are just flaky, very many take what they do very seriously, and do study and progress with it. Sure there are those that just follow what is trendy, but there is allot that find one path they like and stick with it. Chrystal Healing for example is called New Age, well I am very serious about my work with a crystals and have worked with them for several years. New Age is a good path that pepole can learn allot from. Sure it have it's flakes, but so do all areas of the occult. It is not so that New Agers that continue to study grow up and stop being New Agers. New Agers that continue to study become more skilled New Agers.
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New Age vs. Paganism
Original post: doh
Being pagan simply means that you do not hold to the beliefs of the God of Abraham. Plain and simple. Hindus, Buddists, Indigenous Beliefs. All are pagan.
New Age is the belief that there is spirituality found outside normal resources.
Both cross lines often. However, you can be Christian or Muslim or Jewish or pagan and be a New Ager. You cannot be a pagan with a belief in the God of Abraham as the only god.
It's a lack of understanding of what is what that leads to these types of debates. It's all terminology, yes, but it's the only way the we mere mortals have to define things.
And, technically, the New Age (Age of Aquarius) began quite some time ago, not the 70's.
Being pagan simply means that you do not hold to the beliefs of the God of Abraham. Plain and simple. Hindus, Buddists, Indigenous Beliefs. All are pagan.
New Age is the belief that there is spirituality found outside normal resources.
Both cross lines often. However, you can be Christian or Muslim or Jewish or pagan and be a New Ager. You cannot be a pagan with a belief in the God of Abraham as the only god.
It's a lack of understanding of what is what that leads to these types of debates. It's all terminology, yes, but it's the only way the we mere mortals have to define things.
And, technically, the New Age (Age of Aquarius) began quite some time ago, not the 70's.
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New Age vs. Paganism
Original post: Venefica
Hear hear. I agree. But to me New Age is a path, or several paths as it is, of it's own. Your definition is correct, but I am more used to thinking of New Age as the Secret, and vibes, and all of those things. And I personally believe those things have value.
Hear hear. I agree. But to me New Age is a path, or several paths as it is, of it's own. Your definition is correct, but I am more used to thinking of New Age as the Secret, and vibes, and all of those things. And I personally believe those things have value.
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New Age vs. Paganism
Original post: doh
There really is no secret to New Age.
The secret lies in occult.
There really is no secret to New Age.
The secret lies in occult.
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New Age vs. Paganism
Original post: Venefica
I was thinking about the Secret as in the book, that that book is New Age not that it is a secret.
I was thinking about the Secret as in the book, that that book is New Age not that it is a secret.
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New Age vs. Paganism
Original post: bgruagach
From a historical point of view modern Western (mostly English-speaking) Paganism is descended from the New Age, with lots of cross-connections with it over the years strengthening that bond.
Basically, it all goes back to HP Blavatsky and her Theosophical Society.
To summarize, Blavatsky's group took Eastern (mostly Buddhist but also Hindu and other eastern systems) and blended and popularized them for an English, American, and European audience. Her group was really popular and influential -- it still exists today. One of the significant groups that started up inspired in many ways by Blavatsky's group was the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.
The Golden Dawn took what Blavatsky was doing and gave everything a more European emphasis, with a larger focus on ceremonial magick rather than just spiritual philosophy and occult mysticism. And of course the Golden Dawn in turn influenced other groups to form, including Dion Fortune's Society of the Inner Light, the OTO (which Aleister Crowley headed), and others.
Most, if not all, of English-speaking ceremonial magick traces back either literally or at least through inspiration to the Golden Dawn. And we likely wouldn't have had the Golden Dawn if it weren't for Blavatsky and Theosophy.
Another major connection with modern Paganism and Wicca in particular is through Gerald Gardner. Gardner said he met the witches who initiated him through a group running a Rosicrucian theatre. It turns out that this particular group was led or co-led by Mabel Besant, daughter of Annie Besant. Annie Besant was a leader of the Theosophical Society and in fact became its head in 1907 (HP Blavatsky died in 1891.)
Gardner said that the things the witches taught him were fragmentary, so he filled it out with things he borrowed from all over the place. Essays at http://www.geraldgardner.com identify a lot of the borrowed bits, and it's also documented in "Wicca: Magickal Beginnings" by Sorita d'Este and David Rankine, as well as "Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration" by Philip Heselton. Aidan Kelly's "Inventing Witchcraft" is another good one on the topic.
Gardner was not the only one in Wicca to borrow pretty freely. Alex Sanders, showman that he was, was pretty free with experimenting and incorporating lots of varied things into his practice (especially if it would make for good shows for the camera!) There are videos from various documentaries available on YouTube that show Alex in his glory -- just do a search there for Alex Sanders and they come up.
So I think it's fair to say it's pretty unlikely modern Paganism will be able to dissociate itself completely from the New Age end of things -- there are just too many connections and overlaps for us to convincingly draw a line.
From a historical point of view modern Western (mostly English-speaking) Paganism is descended from the New Age, with lots of cross-connections with it over the years strengthening that bond.
Basically, it all goes back to HP Blavatsky and her Theosophical Society.
To summarize, Blavatsky's group took Eastern (mostly Buddhist but also Hindu and other eastern systems) and blended and popularized them for an English, American, and European audience. Her group was really popular and influential -- it still exists today. One of the significant groups that started up inspired in many ways by Blavatsky's group was the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.
The Golden Dawn took what Blavatsky was doing and gave everything a more European emphasis, with a larger focus on ceremonial magick rather than just spiritual philosophy and occult mysticism. And of course the Golden Dawn in turn influenced other groups to form, including Dion Fortune's Society of the Inner Light, the OTO (which Aleister Crowley headed), and others.
Most, if not all, of English-speaking ceremonial magick traces back either literally or at least through inspiration to the Golden Dawn. And we likely wouldn't have had the Golden Dawn if it weren't for Blavatsky and Theosophy.
Another major connection with modern Paganism and Wicca in particular is through Gerald Gardner. Gardner said he met the witches who initiated him through a group running a Rosicrucian theatre. It turns out that this particular group was led or co-led by Mabel Besant, daughter of Annie Besant. Annie Besant was a leader of the Theosophical Society and in fact became its head in 1907 (HP Blavatsky died in 1891.)
Gardner said that the things the witches taught him were fragmentary, so he filled it out with things he borrowed from all over the place. Essays at http://www.geraldgardner.com identify a lot of the borrowed bits, and it's also documented in "Wicca: Magickal Beginnings" by Sorita d'Este and David Rankine, as well as "Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration" by Philip Heselton. Aidan Kelly's "Inventing Witchcraft" is another good one on the topic.
Gardner was not the only one in Wicca to borrow pretty freely. Alex Sanders, showman that he was, was pretty free with experimenting and incorporating lots of varied things into his practice (especially if it would make for good shows for the camera!) There are videos from various documentaries available on YouTube that show Alex in his glory -- just do a search there for Alex Sanders and they come up.
So I think it's fair to say it's pretty unlikely modern Paganism will be able to dissociate itself completely from the New Age end of things -- there are just too many connections and overlaps for us to convincingly draw a line.
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New Age vs. Paganism
Original post: Venefica
That was a very nice and informative post Ben.
I think that New Age is a very wide definition and we all, like I do form a little box in our head with what New Age is, but it could be seen that all Occult is New Age it is not a thing with a very definite border. I think more what pepole mean when they say they want to separate Wicca from New Age is that they want to separate it from the fluffy bunny hug the world and weave a crystal at every problem and chat about Universal love types.
That was a very nice and informative post Ben.
I think that New Age is a very wide definition and we all, like I do form a little box in our head with what New Age is, but it could be seen that all Occult is New Age it is not a thing with a very definite border. I think more what pepole mean when they say they want to separate Wicca from New Age is that they want to separate it from the fluffy bunny hug the world and weave a crystal at every problem and chat about Universal love types.
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New Age vs. Paganism
It's interesting to hear what everyone has to say on this subject. I know that Penn Dutch believe in God but they practice Folk Magic. Does that mean that their not Pagan since they believe in God. Does it mean that their spells and healing doesn't work?