Original post: Kath_
[QUOTE=Draginvry;364116]Yes. I think Douglas Adams has more to offer to the occult than half the new age fluffbunny books ever written.[/QUOTE]
well he did write the bestselling book ever in the history of the galaxy. even more popular than the encyclopedia galactica.
Why your magick does not work
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Malachite
Please;
shadow flame I agree it happens retroactively, but proactively too, some of the most gifted people I know are self taught and wouldn't have a bar of organised magick...nor would they follow any book...others mix and match styles and learning...some say they can do it until eventually they can, the 'fake it til you make it' approach, but it is individual preference...it's the value judgement on one or the other that can hold people back.well, why couldn't magick work retroactively?
Please;
I would not assume that the sigils and spells of children are necessarily 'half assed'. As for being gods, this is what people become when they begin to alter reality to suit themselves is it not?there are some (quite a few) impressionable children, and just as many deluded idiots, who believe themselves Gods from half ass sigils and spells they've casted.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Venefica
The spells I did as a child. I begun practicing the occult very young, worked wonderfully until I got old enough to think the childish little ritual and rhyme sounded lame. The spells of children can be very effective.
The spells I did as a child. I begun practicing the occult very young, worked wonderfully until I got old enough to think the childish little ritual and rhyme sounded lame. The spells of children can be very effective.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Jenfucius
[QUOTE=Malachite;369195].... As for being gods, this is what people become when they begin to alter reality to suit themselves is it not?[/QUOTE]
Not if its only one's active imagination.
[QUOTE=Malachite;369195].... As for being gods, this is what people become when they begin to alter reality to suit themselves is it not?[/QUOTE]
Not if its only one's active imagination.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Malachite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malachite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malachite
Originally posted by Jenfucius.... As for being gods, this is what people become when they begin to alter reality to suit themselves is it not?
I understand where you are coming from, but I would ask you a question. In your opinion, which part of agreed 'reality' did "only active imagination" not create?Not if its only one's active imagination.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: AstralMagickCraft
93,
What moron decided not to include a free towel, though? :rolleyes: I mean honestly...
93 93/93
93,
Kath_;365736 wrote:well he did write the bestselling book ever in the history of the galaxy. even more popular than the encyclopedia galactica.
What moron decided not to include a free towel, though? :rolleyes: I mean honestly...
93 93/93
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Jenfucius
[QUOTE=Malachite;369311]Quote:
I understand where you are coming from, but I would ask you a question. In your opinion, which part of agreed 'reality' did "only active imagination" not create?[/QUOTE]
What do you mean?
Do you mean by society's concensus active imagination or do you mean individual imagination?
[QUOTE=Malachite;369311]Quote:
I understand where you are coming from, but I would ask you a question. In your opinion, which part of agreed 'reality' did "only active imagination" not create?[/QUOTE]
What do you mean?
Do you mean by society's concensus active imagination or do you mean individual imagination?
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: GMBlackwood
I have channeled Satan on many occasions regarding this topic. Truth is Lord Satan has no love for liberals. It is useless to even try to use magic if you are a liberal or a democrat. Don't even try if you belong to the green party. Give up Enochian and just learn Esperanto instead because your wasting your time.
Grand Magister Blackwood
Temples of Satan
I have channeled Satan on many occasions regarding this topic. Truth is Lord Satan has no love for liberals. It is useless to even try to use magic if you are a liberal or a democrat. Don't even try if you belong to the green party. Give up Enochian and just learn Esperanto instead because your wasting your time.
Grand Magister Blackwood
Temples of Satan
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Malachite
So for example, if you look around your home, everything within it originated as a thought (i.e. as 'active imagination). When you look outside, everything there orginated as thought too, it sprung from 'active imagination'; from the tarmac to the stores, to every brick and item of clothing, to every hairstyle, to the economy, to political views and every thought fed through from the media, peer groups, teachers and family. All of it orginated with 'active imagination'. Without thought, no action. Without thought, no experience, Without thought, no creation.
To go further, some would agree that thought, or 'active imagination' is all that there is. The dream goes on, with rules and laws within it, seeming tangible, seeming physical, as we perceive and filter the information coming in and create what we see and experience as we go along.
From this perspective, 'active imagination' is the essence of all, and the source of everything we consider to be physical and real. Therefore to say to someone, 'you haven't performed any magick, it was only your active imagination', would be a contradiction.
Now whether or not there is duality of thought, or whether reality is the dream of a single consciousness ('individual imagination') would be another question...
Ok, well everybody's perception is different, but together we agree on what reality is, as you said, a 'consensus'. Most would agree that thoughts create reality on a physical level, since everything ever created or achieved by man originated with 'active imagination'.What do you mean?
Do you mean by society's concensus active imagination or do you mean individual imagination?
So for example, if you look around your home, everything within it originated as a thought (i.e. as 'active imagination). When you look outside, everything there orginated as thought too, it sprung from 'active imagination'; from the tarmac to the stores, to every brick and item of clothing, to every hairstyle, to the economy, to political views and every thought fed through from the media, peer groups, teachers and family. All of it orginated with 'active imagination'. Without thought, no action. Without thought, no experience, Without thought, no creation.
To go further, some would agree that thought, or 'active imagination' is all that there is. The dream goes on, with rules and laws within it, seeming tangible, seeming physical, as we perceive and filter the information coming in and create what we see and experience as we go along.
From this perspective, 'active imagination' is the essence of all, and the source of everything we consider to be physical and real. Therefore to say to someone, 'you haven't performed any magick, it was only your active imagination', would be a contradiction.
Now whether or not there is duality of thought, or whether reality is the dream of a single consciousness ('individual imagination') would be another question...
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Jenfucius
[QUOTE=Malachite;369513]...
Most would agree that thoughts create reality on a physical level, since everything ever created or achieved by man originated with 'active imagination'.
[/QUOTE]
I would have to disagree (repsectfully).
The various elements for example in chemistry is not created by thought. Lead is lead. Copper is copper. Tin is tin.
No imaginatioin there. It existed even befor humans ever walked the earth.
Now there are man made constructed things that was design (using active imagination) obviously none other by human beings.
[QUOTE=Malachite;369513]...
So for example, if you look around your home, everything within it originated as a thought (i.e. as 'active imagination). When you look outside, everything there orginated as thought too, it sprung from 'active imagination'; from the tarmac to the stores, to every brick and item of clothing, to every hairstyle, to the economy, to political views and every thought fed through from the media, peer groups, teachers and family. All of it orginated with 'active imagination'. ...[/QUOTE]
Only the design is. The raw basic chemicals of a brick was there long befor humans.
[QUOTE=Malachite;369513]...
To go further, some would agree that thought, or 'active imagination' is all that there is. The dream goes on, with rules and laws within it, seeming tangible, seeming physical, as we perceive and filter the information coming in and create what we see and experience as we go along.
...[/QUOTE]
The laws of physics still apply (unless theres some sort of metaphysical intervention).
If you jump off a high rise building you can believe anything you want (like that kid who thought he was Superman) chances are your going to plummet to your death. Dont believe me you can try it.
[QUOTE=Malachite;369513]...
From this perspective, 'active imagination' is the essence of all, and the source of everything we consider to be physical and real. Therefore to say to someone, 'you haven't performed any magick, it was only your active imagination', would be a contradiction.
...[/QUOTE]
I would disagree.
As stated above the laws of physics still apply.
You can blind fold a friend and not tell him your going to push him off a high rise building. He doesnt have to believe anything and he will still fall.
Imagination and magick is not the same thing imo. I dont buy it.
Magick might require imagination but imagination by itself does not mean magick.
Years ago I knew a guy that was on LSD and he believed that horns were comming out of the teacher's head in class. He freaked out so much he ran out of the room screaming. But at no time did horns grow out of the teacher's head because of his imagination.
[QUOTE=Malachite;369513]...
Most would agree that thoughts create reality on a physical level, since everything ever created or achieved by man originated with 'active imagination'.
[/QUOTE]
I would have to disagree (repsectfully).
The various elements for example in chemistry is not created by thought. Lead is lead. Copper is copper. Tin is tin.
No imaginatioin there. It existed even befor humans ever walked the earth.
Now there are man made constructed things that was design (using active imagination) obviously none other by human beings.
[QUOTE=Malachite;369513]...
So for example, if you look around your home, everything within it originated as a thought (i.e. as 'active imagination). When you look outside, everything there orginated as thought too, it sprung from 'active imagination'; from the tarmac to the stores, to every brick and item of clothing, to every hairstyle, to the economy, to political views and every thought fed through from the media, peer groups, teachers and family. All of it orginated with 'active imagination'. ...[/QUOTE]
Only the design is. The raw basic chemicals of a brick was there long befor humans.
[QUOTE=Malachite;369513]...
To go further, some would agree that thought, or 'active imagination' is all that there is. The dream goes on, with rules and laws within it, seeming tangible, seeming physical, as we perceive and filter the information coming in and create what we see and experience as we go along.
...[/QUOTE]
The laws of physics still apply (unless theres some sort of metaphysical intervention).
If you jump off a high rise building you can believe anything you want (like that kid who thought he was Superman) chances are your going to plummet to your death. Dont believe me you can try it.
[QUOTE=Malachite;369513]...
From this perspective, 'active imagination' is the essence of all, and the source of everything we consider to be physical and real. Therefore to say to someone, 'you haven't performed any magick, it was only your active imagination', would be a contradiction.
...[/QUOTE]
I would disagree.
As stated above the laws of physics still apply.
You can blind fold a friend and not tell him your going to push him off a high rise building. He doesnt have to believe anything and he will still fall.
Imagination and magick is not the same thing imo. I dont buy it.
Magick might require imagination but imagination by itself does not mean magick.
Years ago I knew a guy that was on LSD and he believed that horns were comming out of the teacher's head in class. He freaked out so much he ran out of the room screaming. But at no time did horns grow out of the teacher's head because of his imagination.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Venefica
Let me see if I get this right. You channeled Satan not once, but many times about a topic on a message board and He gave you political advice? Shit Satan must have allot of spare time on His hands.I have channeled Satan on many occasions regarding this topic.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: IAO131
[QUOTE=Venefica;369575]Let me see if I get this right. You channeled Satan not once, but many times about a topic on a message board and He gave you political advice? Shit Satan must have allot of spare time on His hands.[/QUOTE]
I think he means he channeled a self-delusion he likes to call Satan.
IAO131
[QUOTE=Venefica;369575]Let me see if I get this right. You channeled Satan not once, but many times about a topic on a message board and He gave you political advice? Shit Satan must have allot of spare time on His hands.[/QUOTE]
I think he means he channeled a self-delusion he likes to call Satan.
IAO131
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Venefica
Oh..how much more boring.
Oh..how much more boring.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Malachite
Jenfucius, now, it's a digression, but here goes...
Since your argument here is against the idea that the extant components of the earth were not created my man's 'active imagination', but your argument is for the idea of design ('active imagination'), I believe you agree with my first statement that
Now, the reason I brought up the idea of 'active imagination' being a powerful force in the construction (and yes 'design') of the man made world, is because you had suggested that 'active imagination' is not important. Specifically, you implied that active imagination was not important for magick, and that when people make claims that you yourself find difficult to accept, you have put it down to being 'only' their 'active imagination'. Saying this belittles people's practice and is an ironic statement, since most would agree that 'active imagination' is in fact responsible for the whole of the man-made world.
What I feel you actually disagree with is the second idea in my post. That active imagination creates reality itself. As I said, some would agree, and by implication some wouldn't. You're in the latter category on this. However, if you do not agree that imagination creates reality itself (or thoughts create reality), then I would question how/whether you believe magick is possible at all?
I will also say again, do not discount the practice of others on the basis of it being 'only active imagination'. The nature of 'reality' is yet to be discovered by many, and the possibilities are endless. Nothing is impossible. If you believe otherwise you place limits on yourself, and likewise limit others.
Jenfucius, now, it's a digression, but here goes...
The first part of my post is about the 'man made world' Jenfucius and not what is extant. It's interesting that you should post about these particular elements though because I am interested in Britain BC, and recently have been exploring the way they extracted elements such as copper for practical use. Copper, is extracted from various compound structures, one of which, a structure called Malachite was considered by the ancients of Britain to grow from the earth as a gift from the gods. As a result of this belief, the ancients left offerings all throughout the huge Malachite mine at Great Orme in Llandudno, Wales, UK. This mine was one of the biggest workings for copper (Malachite and Azurite). Stone and bone tools from the area show calibrated age ranges from 1410 BC onwards, and the site is littered with small piles of stone hammers (unused) left as offerings to encourage more Malachite to grow, from these times. In addition, the process of copper extraction is not a simple one. There are hydro-metallurgical, pyro-metallurgical, chemical-metallurgical and even currently bacteria-metallurgical copper extraction processes that are fairly complex. Lots of thought involved, lots of planning, lots of 'active imagination' there.The various elements for example in chemistry is not created by thought. Lead is lead. Copper is copper. Tin is tin.
And again that word 'only'. It was 'only the design'. Now then, design = active imagination. Design is ideas, thought processes, that are imagined and detailed for the purpose of manifesting or bringing things into 'physical' existence.Only the design is. The raw basic chemicals of a brick was there long before humans
Since your argument here is against the idea that the extant components of the earth were not created my man's 'active imagination', but your argument is for the idea of design ('active imagination'), I believe you agree with my first statement that
even though you try to make 'active imagination' seem unimportant.Most would agree that thoughts create reality on a physical level since everything ever created or achieved by man originated with 'active imagination'
Now, the reason I brought up the idea of 'active imagination' being a powerful force in the construction (and yes 'design') of the man made world, is because you had suggested that 'active imagination' is not important. Specifically, you implied that active imagination was not important for magick, and that when people make claims that you yourself find difficult to accept, you have put it down to being 'only' their 'active imagination'. Saying this belittles people's practice and is an ironic statement, since most would agree that 'active imagination' is in fact responsible for the whole of the man-made world.
What I feel you actually disagree with is the second idea in my post. That active imagination creates reality itself. As I said, some would agree, and by implication some wouldn't. You're in the latter category on this. However, if you do not agree that imagination creates reality itself (or thoughts create reality), then I would question how/whether you believe magick is possible at all?
I will also say again, do not discount the practice of others on the basis of it being 'only active imagination'. The nature of 'reality' is yet to be discovered by many, and the possibilities are endless. Nothing is impossible. If you believe otherwise you place limits on yourself, and likewise limit others.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Jenfucius
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]Jenfucius, now, it's a digression, but here goes...[/QUOTE]
Why because someone disagrees with you?
Can we not have a few disagreements here and there on the forum.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]The first part of my post is about the 'man made world' Jenfucius and not what is extant. It's interesting that you should post about these particular compounds though because I am interested in Britain BC, and recently have been exploring the way they extracted compounds such as copper for practical use. Copper, is extracted from various structures, one of which, a structure called Malachite was considered by the ancients of Britain to grow from the earth as a gift from the gods. As a result of this belief, the ancients left offerings all throughout the huge Malachite mine at Great Orme in Llandudno, Wales, UK. This mine was one of the biggest workings for copper (Malachite and Azurite). Stone and bone tools from the area show calibrated age ranges from 1410 BC onwards, and the site is littered with small piles of stone hammers (unused) left as offerings to encourage more Malachite to grow, from these times. In addition, the process of copper extraction is not a simple one. There are hydro-metallurgical, pyro-metallurgical, chemical-metallurgical and even currently bacteria-metallurgical copper extraction processes that are fairly complex. Lots of thought involved, lots of planning, lots of 'active imagination' there.
[/QUOTE]
Keep in mind all kinds of cultures have mythology of how things were created. Not all would agree with one another but thats another story.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]I believe you agree with my first statement that even though you try to make 'active imagination' seem unimportant..[/QUOTE]
Not true at all. That is your own assertion.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
....is because you had suggested that 'active imagination' is not important. [/QUOTE]
Active imagination has its time and place.
Please dont make wild assertions what I think.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
As I said, some would agree, and by implication some wouldn't. You're in the latter category on this.
.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
However, if you do not agree that imagination creates reality itself (or thoughts create reality), then I would question how/whether you believe magick is possible at all?
[/QUOTE]
That is your own doing.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
I will also say again, do not discount the practice of others on the basis of it being 'only active imagination'. [/QUOTE]
Please do not put words in my mouth.
It depends on what practices you are refering to. It also depends on specifically to whom.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
The nature of 'reality' is yet to be discovered by many, and the possibilities are endless. .[/QUOTE]
But you can test reality can you not? Once again why wouldnt you jump off a high rise building? Ask yourself that.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
Specifically, you implied that active imagination was not important for magick,
[/QUOTE]
Actually I said the opposit of that.
Go actually read what I wrote.
"Magick might require imagination but imagination by itself does not mean magick."
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
... that when people make claims that you yourself find difficult to accept, .[/QUOTE]
Please dont make wild presumptions about me.
And lets not resort to personal attacks. We can have a civil discussion can we not?
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
Saying this belittles people's practice ....[/QUOTE]
Please dont insert words in my mouth.
Did I say all people? I dont believe I did.
I would say of some people or certain people or person.
And It should be clear.
I do not believe imagination automatically means one is practicing magick.
To qoute myself: "Magick might require imagination but imagination by itself does not mean magick."
Who hasnt an imagination? Would that make everyone automatically a magician already?
imagination=magician???
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
....since most would agree that 'active imagination' is in fact responsible for the whole of the man-made world.
[/QUOTE]
IMO what you seem to confuse is the physical world with the metaphysical world.
Keep in mind there are many things in this world that was created without human intervention.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
The nature of 'reality' is yet to be discovered by many, and the possibilities are endless. .[/QUOTE]
To qoute myself: "The laws of physics still apply (unless theres some sort of metaphysical intervention)."
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
Nothing is impossible. .[/QUOTE]
Impossible or improbable? (note the difference between the two)
IMO to say "nothing is impossible" is a form of extremism.
Its the mirror reflective image of someone saying "nothing is possible". Both are of polar opposit extremes. (IMO)
I rather take more of a balance approach.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]Jenfucius, now, it's a digression, but here goes...[/QUOTE]
Why because someone disagrees with you?
Can we not have a few disagreements here and there on the forum.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]The first part of my post is about the 'man made world' Jenfucius and not what is extant. It's interesting that you should post about these particular compounds though because I am interested in Britain BC, and recently have been exploring the way they extracted compounds such as copper for practical use. Copper, is extracted from various structures, one of which, a structure called Malachite was considered by the ancients of Britain to grow from the earth as a gift from the gods. As a result of this belief, the ancients left offerings all throughout the huge Malachite mine at Great Orme in Llandudno, Wales, UK. This mine was one of the biggest workings for copper (Malachite and Azurite). Stone and bone tools from the area show calibrated age ranges from 1410 BC onwards, and the site is littered with small piles of stone hammers (unused) left as offerings to encourage more Malachite to grow, from these times. In addition, the process of copper extraction is not a simple one. There are hydro-metallurgical, pyro-metallurgical, chemical-metallurgical and even currently bacteria-metallurgical copper extraction processes that are fairly complex. Lots of thought involved, lots of planning, lots of 'active imagination' there.
[/QUOTE]
Keep in mind all kinds of cultures have mythology of how things were created. Not all would agree with one another but thats another story.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]I believe you agree with my first statement that even though you try to make 'active imagination' seem unimportant..[/QUOTE]
Not true at all. That is your own assertion.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
....is because you had suggested that 'active imagination' is not important. [/QUOTE]
Active imagination has its time and place.
Please dont make wild assertions what I think.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
As I said, some would agree, and by implication some wouldn't. You're in the latter category on this.
.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
However, if you do not agree that imagination creates reality itself (or thoughts create reality), then I would question how/whether you believe magick is possible at all?
[/QUOTE]
That is your own doing.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
I will also say again, do not discount the practice of others on the basis of it being 'only active imagination'. [/QUOTE]
Please do not put words in my mouth.
It depends on what practices you are refering to. It also depends on specifically to whom.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
The nature of 'reality' is yet to be discovered by many, and the possibilities are endless. .[/QUOTE]
But you can test reality can you not? Once again why wouldnt you jump off a high rise building? Ask yourself that.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
Specifically, you implied that active imagination was not important for magick,
[/QUOTE]
Actually I said the opposit of that.
Go actually read what I wrote.
"Magick might require imagination but imagination by itself does not mean magick."
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
... that when people make claims that you yourself find difficult to accept, .[/QUOTE]
Please dont make wild presumptions about me.
And lets not resort to personal attacks. We can have a civil discussion can we not?
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
Saying this belittles people's practice ....[/QUOTE]
Please dont insert words in my mouth.
Did I say all people? I dont believe I did.
I would say of some people or certain people or person.
And It should be clear.
I do not believe imagination automatically means one is practicing magick.
To qoute myself: "Magick might require imagination but imagination by itself does not mean magick."
Who hasnt an imagination? Would that make everyone automatically a magician already?
imagination=magician???
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
....since most would agree that 'active imagination' is in fact responsible for the whole of the man-made world.
[/QUOTE]
IMO what you seem to confuse is the physical world with the metaphysical world.
Keep in mind there are many things in this world that was created without human intervention.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
The nature of 'reality' is yet to be discovered by many, and the possibilities are endless. .[/QUOTE]
To qoute myself: "The laws of physics still apply (unless theres some sort of metaphysical intervention)."
[QUOTE=Malachite;370307]
Nothing is impossible. .[/QUOTE]
Impossible or improbable? (note the difference between the two)
IMO to say "nothing is impossible" is a form of extremism.
Its the mirror reflective image of someone saying "nothing is possible". Both are of polar opposit extremes. (IMO)
I rather take more of a balance approach.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: duudeilaunchFIREBALLS
Alright dudes, It's kewl to be a popsicle.
Alright dudes, It's kewl to be a popsicle.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Malachite
Jenfucius, I feel that a long pendantic discussion will cloud the point. You asked my meaning and I hope I have clarified for you, since that was my aim.
It doesn't matter to me whether or not you have an open mind, how open it is, what you are open to or even whether you agree or disagree with any illustrative ideas of reality I've touched on (or any of the myriad of ideas I've not explored here) .
My point is it may matter to other people's practice if they come here and post their experiences, perhaps young people as discussed, and are told it's only their active imagination.
Jenfucius, I feel that a long pendantic discussion will cloud the point. You asked my meaning and I hope I have clarified for you, since that was my aim.
It doesn't matter to me whether or not you have an open mind, how open it is, what you are open to or even whether you agree or disagree with any illustrative ideas of reality I've touched on (or any of the myriad of ideas I've not explored here) .
My point is it may matter to other people's practice if they come here and post their experiences, perhaps young people as discussed, and are told it's only their active imagination.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Jenfucius
[QUOTE=Malachite;370594]...
My point is it may matter to other people's practice if they come here and post their experiences, perhaps young people as discussed, and are told it's only their active imagination.[/QUOTE]
Once again you totally missed my point.
To qoute myself once again:
"(And It should be clear.
I do not believe imagination automatically means one is practicing magick.
To qoute myself: "Magick might require imagination but imagination by itself does not mean magick."
Who hasnt an imagination? Would that make everyone automatically a magician already?
imagination=magician???)"
[QUOTE=Malachite;370594]...
My point is it may matter to other people's practice if they come here and post their experiences, perhaps young people as discussed, and are told it's only their active imagination.[/QUOTE]
Once again you totally missed my point.
To qoute myself once again:
"(And It should be clear.
I do not believe imagination automatically means one is practicing magick.
To qoute myself: "Magick might require imagination but imagination by itself does not mean magick."
Who hasnt an imagination? Would that make everyone automatically a magician already?
imagination=magician???)"
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Jenfucius
[QUOTE=Malachite;370594]Jenfucius, I feel that a long pendantic discussion will cloud the point. You asked my meaning and I hope I have clarified for you, since that was my aim.
[/QUOTE]
To qoute you: "I understand where you are coming from, but I would ask you a question. In your opinion, which part of agreed 'reality' did "only active imagination" not create?"
Well you did ask me a question I did attempt to answer it.
I'll leave it at that then.
[QUOTE=Malachite;370594]Jenfucius, I feel that a long pendantic discussion will cloud the point. You asked my meaning and I hope I have clarified for you, since that was my aim.
[/QUOTE]
To qoute you: "I understand where you are coming from, but I would ask you a question. In your opinion, which part of agreed 'reality' did "only active imagination" not create?"
Well you did ask me a question I did attempt to answer it.
I'll leave it at that then.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Please
I agree with Jenfucius. Magick does require an imagination, but the imagination itself is not practicing magick. It is quite simple really.
I agree with Jenfucius. Magick does require an imagination, but the imagination itself is not practicing magick. It is quite simple really.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Frater Mugen
I feel that, in the practice of magic, a finely tuned use of awareness both in the case of opening the awareness more fully to reality (as opposed to our filtered versions of it) and in the case of concentrating awareness on particular "objects" (e.g. an energy center, a sigil, etc.) holds a higher position of importance vs. "imagination." I consider active imagination useful to refine and may yield results by itself when used properly, but I feel awareness opens the doors to deepening, fine tuning, and feeling/sensing one's magic. Both play off each other in practice and have their uses, so I do not take the stance that one should throw out development of imagination or visualization skills.
To digress from the original thread topic, but to follow a topic that was produced and to tie in to the above...
To say that "imagination" or "thoughts" claims the position of the primary constituent of reality does not hold in my opinion. Theoretically, "imagination" can influence what manifests in reality through the practice of magic, but in other cases it could also simply overlay thick filters in how one perceives reality in the case of "overactive imagination" and self-delusion. Perhaps "consensus reality" does not indicate so much the majority's imagination manifesting what exists and does not exist in reality, but how the majority decides to filter reality (i.e. how they imagine reality) based on cultural indoctrination. Different cultures throughout the world have different consensuses in how they interact with reality and what constitutes reality, so how exactly does that play into a global consensus? I believe the illusion that other cultures necessarily look at reality the same as how your own culture generally looks at it acts as a pitfall of naivety in the theory that "consensus reality" creates reality itself. So, I think it lies more in an individuals indoctrination into reality based on their local consensus rather than a global or universal consensus. This indoctrination will then influence how an individual perceives and interacts with reality and so may influence how easily they can break down perceptual walls to open their awareness to what lies beyond the veil of filtered reality, which in turn may influence magical ability. Most people imagine reality and imagine themselves in particular ways at particular times, but that does not necessarily change what remains fundamentally "real" nor does it indicate that if nobody has imagined it yet it does not exist.
Opening awareness is necessary for opening one's experience of reality. Perhaps imagination can bring you closer to the nature of reality, certainly it can manipulate your filters of perception, and it seems to act as an agent to manipulate levels of manifestation... However, does imagination point to reality itself or to a conceptualization? If all conceptualizations were cut through, if all references points were dropped, then what would remain? Perhaps then one could experience reality directly and could manifest magic more directly. I cannot say it won't still require imagination, but rather than conceptualized imagination concerning the realm of possibility and impossibility it will cut into direct experience. In turn, this could mean the more an individual opens their awareness to the experience of reality, the more they find themselves in tune with the possibilities available to them and how to work with reality to lead to more precise works of magic. The "how-to" could come intuitively or learned through conventional or unconventional means. This also gives a graded approach where one strips away the layers of delusion to approach the "reality" that magic expresses. The concept of "nothing is impossible" may also just express a reference point to hang on to, but to me exploration of reality directly takes priority over taking a guess at what possibilities or impossibilities may or may not have inherent control on the state of reality.
So, I actually agree with the original thread starter (though the title of the thread seems inappropriate and apparently offensive to some) in that attention should be placed on some sort of progressive "work" or "training." Some people, based on their conditions, may use or develop "supranormal" talents with little or no training, but that does not act as an excuse to not pursue further refining one's skills. For me, the basic "work" lies in stripping away concepts placed like veils over reality. Pierce deeper and deeper. Climb higher and higher. If not, then one may expect to face stagnation or fall into the illusion that they have attained the highest summit of the world when they stand on a hill with their back turned away from the mountain. Having some salt shakers of skepticism may prove handy, but some may fear it will place limitations on themselves. This may prove true if "skepticism" bases itself on placing more obscuring filters in how one perceives reality. Then it becomes a concept we leave ourselves shackled to as we sit there approving our level-headed knowledge of how the world works. Cut through concepts, cut through opinions, and cut through those limitations and chains that bind one to delusion. Skepticism, in my opinion, should work as an openness to possibilities rather than just another way to jump to conclusions on what happened based on narrow concepts of reality.
Excuse me if you find the post long, and sorry if it lacks a certain amount of coherence. But there I provided my opinion on how one could approach the issues of training magical faculties when problems of delusion, misinterpretation of experience, and so forth may become an issue. In a way... who cares? Just acknowledge difficulties arise in practice and we find ourselves steeped in delusion from ourselves and our cultural/societal indoctrination. Cut through it, shed it, and never stop.
I feel that, in the practice of magic, a finely tuned use of awareness both in the case of opening the awareness more fully to reality (as opposed to our filtered versions of it) and in the case of concentrating awareness on particular "objects" (e.g. an energy center, a sigil, etc.) holds a higher position of importance vs. "imagination." I consider active imagination useful to refine and may yield results by itself when used properly, but I feel awareness opens the doors to deepening, fine tuning, and feeling/sensing one's magic. Both play off each other in practice and have their uses, so I do not take the stance that one should throw out development of imagination or visualization skills.
To digress from the original thread topic, but to follow a topic that was produced and to tie in to the above...
To say that "imagination" or "thoughts" claims the position of the primary constituent of reality does not hold in my opinion. Theoretically, "imagination" can influence what manifests in reality through the practice of magic, but in other cases it could also simply overlay thick filters in how one perceives reality in the case of "overactive imagination" and self-delusion. Perhaps "consensus reality" does not indicate so much the majority's imagination manifesting what exists and does not exist in reality, but how the majority decides to filter reality (i.e. how they imagine reality) based on cultural indoctrination. Different cultures throughout the world have different consensuses in how they interact with reality and what constitutes reality, so how exactly does that play into a global consensus? I believe the illusion that other cultures necessarily look at reality the same as how your own culture generally looks at it acts as a pitfall of naivety in the theory that "consensus reality" creates reality itself. So, I think it lies more in an individuals indoctrination into reality based on their local consensus rather than a global or universal consensus. This indoctrination will then influence how an individual perceives and interacts with reality and so may influence how easily they can break down perceptual walls to open their awareness to what lies beyond the veil of filtered reality, which in turn may influence magical ability. Most people imagine reality and imagine themselves in particular ways at particular times, but that does not necessarily change what remains fundamentally "real" nor does it indicate that if nobody has imagined it yet it does not exist.
Opening awareness is necessary for opening one's experience of reality. Perhaps imagination can bring you closer to the nature of reality, certainly it can manipulate your filters of perception, and it seems to act as an agent to manipulate levels of manifestation... However, does imagination point to reality itself or to a conceptualization? If all conceptualizations were cut through, if all references points were dropped, then what would remain? Perhaps then one could experience reality directly and could manifest magic more directly. I cannot say it won't still require imagination, but rather than conceptualized imagination concerning the realm of possibility and impossibility it will cut into direct experience. In turn, this could mean the more an individual opens their awareness to the experience of reality, the more they find themselves in tune with the possibilities available to them and how to work with reality to lead to more precise works of magic. The "how-to" could come intuitively or learned through conventional or unconventional means. This also gives a graded approach where one strips away the layers of delusion to approach the "reality" that magic expresses. The concept of "nothing is impossible" may also just express a reference point to hang on to, but to me exploration of reality directly takes priority over taking a guess at what possibilities or impossibilities may or may not have inherent control on the state of reality.
So, I actually agree with the original thread starter (though the title of the thread seems inappropriate and apparently offensive to some) in that attention should be placed on some sort of progressive "work" or "training." Some people, based on their conditions, may use or develop "supranormal" talents with little or no training, but that does not act as an excuse to not pursue further refining one's skills. For me, the basic "work" lies in stripping away concepts placed like veils over reality. Pierce deeper and deeper. Climb higher and higher. If not, then one may expect to face stagnation or fall into the illusion that they have attained the highest summit of the world when they stand on a hill with their back turned away from the mountain. Having some salt shakers of skepticism may prove handy, but some may fear it will place limitations on themselves. This may prove true if "skepticism" bases itself on placing more obscuring filters in how one perceives reality. Then it becomes a concept we leave ourselves shackled to as we sit there approving our level-headed knowledge of how the world works. Cut through concepts, cut through opinions, and cut through those limitations and chains that bind one to delusion. Skepticism, in my opinion, should work as an openness to possibilities rather than just another way to jump to conclusions on what happened based on narrow concepts of reality.
Excuse me if you find the post long, and sorry if it lacks a certain amount of coherence. But there I provided my opinion on how one could approach the issues of training magical faculties when problems of delusion, misinterpretation of experience, and so forth may become an issue. In a way... who cares? Just acknowledge difficulties arise in practice and we find ourselves steeped in delusion from ourselves and our cultural/societal indoctrination. Cut through it, shed it, and never stop.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: GeWa
[QUOTE=Bird of Hermes;363298]The point of this post is to get it across to people that in order to work magick of any real worth that isn't a subjective delusion you must go through some training that requires hard work and develops the will.
....
This is a disease that has been running rampant in the magickal community for far to long, I tire quickly of all the 16-20 year old people who haven't even been training for a solid year, claiming that they astral project, and do successful evocations.[/QUOTE]
You don't always need training to be able to do magick and succeed. I used to have a lot of success at the young age of 12 and on. You obviously don't need expensive things to perform great spells and rituals, infact, I've found I can work with what I have.
If you feel like you need to read books and train yourself on other's methods, fine, but don't tell people they need to do the same. Your way isn't the only way.
Yes, experience is good but that comes with time.
[QUOTE=Bird of Hermes;363298]The point of this post is to get it across to people that in order to work magick of any real worth that isn't a subjective delusion you must go through some training that requires hard work and develops the will.
....
This is a disease that has been running rampant in the magickal community for far to long, I tire quickly of all the 16-20 year old people who haven't even been training for a solid year, claiming that they astral project, and do successful evocations.[/QUOTE]
You don't always need training to be able to do magick and succeed. I used to have a lot of success at the young age of 12 and on. You obviously don't need expensive things to perform great spells and rituals, infact, I've found I can work with what I have.
If you feel like you need to read books and train yourself on other's methods, fine, but don't tell people they need to do the same. Your way isn't the only way.
Yes, experience is good but that comes with time.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: GeWa
afterall, the popular saying "practice makes perfect" usually applies to most things. I've also found that reading books and using other people's methods don't seem to work for me personally.. so.. I mean don't sit here all high and mighty insulting everyone because you think you're some kind of hot shit.
afterall, the popular saying "practice makes perfect" usually applies to most things. I've also found that reading books and using other people's methods don't seem to work for me personally.. so.. I mean don't sit here all high and mighty insulting everyone because you think you're some kind of hot shit.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: GeWa
plus, you're very very defensive. calm down.
plus, you're very very defensive. calm down.
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Why your magick does not work
Original post: Kath_
creativity > knowledge
or
creativity < knowledge
The strength of the n00b is in creativity, which is a vital and indispensable part of really ENGAGING magick as a visceral experience which has personal meaning, which opens and unlocks doorways in the mind and spirit. There is a great deal 'right' about taking one's Will and approaching the method with a 'just do it' attitude. Ultimately all methods and systems are designed to get the 'do it' done, and if that can be addressed with simple bull headed will & desire, great.
However... the experience necessary to understand better what one is doing, to discern aspects of the path, to learn from others, to learn from existing systems and ideologies, to compare thoughts and understandings, to refine and build knowledge and transform the self with every step in a long path... So much which you observe in the early experimental days, all makes so much more sense after a few years of growing in your path, building a sense of discernment, educating yourself, evolving your paradigm, etc. There is plenty *right* about having the experience necessary to reflect on one's path and learn through being able to see the forest through the trees.
both have their selling points. both are good. both are absolutely necessary to the well rounded magician.
what I think is actually the thing which inspired this thread, is that some people are simply 'roll playing' Magician. And a few of these might not be immediately aware of this on the uppermost surface of their conscious mind. And that these individuals are sort of like an elephant in the room which nobody talks about, when occultists are talking together, like in this forum, or a chatroom, etc.
Personally, I've only been 'intensively' focused on an occult path for a little over 7 years. And I can say that I did some pretty friggin amazing things in my first year. I think i learned more and more quickly that first year than any other year. And I say that in spite of the fact that my interest level and dedicated time spent on my occult path has never wavered, and has, if anything, actually grown over the years. When a thoroughly dry sponge finally hits water, the initial absorption is pretty dramatic.
I did however, as a n00b, have a sense of discretion about many of my experiences & practices & results. I intuited that they were a bit 'over the top' for a newbie, and I kept much to myself. Plus there was a lot which I could kinda tell needed more time and understanding to correctly interpret and understand. So I kept a lot to myself early on. I think a lot of people can remember doing something like that early in their occult path. And if that is so, then have newbies gotten more powerful? or just more outspoken with their early impressions & experiences?
Anyway I really *get* where the frustration which inspired this thread is coming from. And at the same time I really *get* a lot of the counter argment which has been raised. Its almost strange to me that there IS an argument, since I pretty much completely agree with both sides. But then that's a habit i've developed, with experience & through guidance... to approach the whole, rather than a singular point which cries out to be the only truth.
creativity > knowledge
or
creativity < knowledge
The strength of the n00b is in creativity, which is a vital and indispensable part of really ENGAGING magick as a visceral experience which has personal meaning, which opens and unlocks doorways in the mind and spirit. There is a great deal 'right' about taking one's Will and approaching the method with a 'just do it' attitude. Ultimately all methods and systems are designed to get the 'do it' done, and if that can be addressed with simple bull headed will & desire, great.
However... the experience necessary to understand better what one is doing, to discern aspects of the path, to learn from others, to learn from existing systems and ideologies, to compare thoughts and understandings, to refine and build knowledge and transform the self with every step in a long path... So much which you observe in the early experimental days, all makes so much more sense after a few years of growing in your path, building a sense of discernment, educating yourself, evolving your paradigm, etc. There is plenty *right* about having the experience necessary to reflect on one's path and learn through being able to see the forest through the trees.
both have their selling points. both are good. both are absolutely necessary to the well rounded magician.
what I think is actually the thing which inspired this thread, is that some people are simply 'roll playing' Magician. And a few of these might not be immediately aware of this on the uppermost surface of their conscious mind. And that these individuals are sort of like an elephant in the room which nobody talks about, when occultists are talking together, like in this forum, or a chatroom, etc.
Personally, I've only been 'intensively' focused on an occult path for a little over 7 years. And I can say that I did some pretty friggin amazing things in my first year. I think i learned more and more quickly that first year than any other year. And I say that in spite of the fact that my interest level and dedicated time spent on my occult path has never wavered, and has, if anything, actually grown over the years. When a thoroughly dry sponge finally hits water, the initial absorption is pretty dramatic.
I did however, as a n00b, have a sense of discretion about many of my experiences & practices & results. I intuited that they were a bit 'over the top' for a newbie, and I kept much to myself. Plus there was a lot which I could kinda tell needed more time and understanding to correctly interpret and understand. So I kept a lot to myself early on. I think a lot of people can remember doing something like that early in their occult path. And if that is so, then have newbies gotten more powerful? or just more outspoken with their early impressions & experiences?
Anyway I really *get* where the frustration which inspired this thread is coming from. And at the same time I really *get* a lot of the counter argment which has been raised. Its almost strange to me that there IS an argument, since I pretty much completely agree with both sides. But then that's a habit i've developed, with experience & through guidance... to approach the whole, rather than a singular point which cries out to be the only truth.