Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

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Malk
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Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

Post by Malk »

Hello,

I'm not really a beginner in the Occult (but in Demons yes) but I don't know where to put this.

I've read various opinions on this matter of burning (or destroying) a sigil during or after a ritual. I'm asking this question because when I start to contact certain Demons I want to attempt to work with, I want to make sure I don't do them any disrespect by burning the sigil after the ritual or as a part of the ritual but towards the end. I travel a great deal and the people I'm involved with frown upon things of this nature, so I don't want too much physical evidence around pertaining to my worship of Satan and Demons (plus I don't have the means to keep a bunch of sigils around). Any thoughts would be helpful?

Extra question.

For those who work with Demons: is it better to work with several Demons or is it better to attempt to find your own personal Demon to build a personal relationship with even if you seek their advice or help on matters they usually don't help with? Example being having a personal relationship with Zepar but attempting to seek strength from him to improve your linguistic ability, something which you would generally ask Ronove.

Frater_NT

Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

Post by Frater_NT »

The first question isn't exactly clear. Are you asking "when would you burn a sigil?", "why?", something else? I'm not sure so I'll just post about my wife's and my experience. Normally when summoning up a goetic you'll find that they are either cool with you and helpful, or they want their orders so they can get the hell away from you. Now and then you'll have them act like little assholes to you and that is when you play rough. Before even getting to the burning sigil part, hold up your asafoetida and question them about if they know what the herb is. Of course they will know what it is. Remind them that the stuff smells like badger ass and it's going to HIGHLY piss you off if you have to start burning it. This will normally get them under control. However, if they still want to fight and argue, make the threat that you will take their seal and stick it in the bottle of asafoetida which will make them smell like badger ass for all eternity [lol] sounds silly, I know, but you'd be surprised how well this works! So, at this point if the spirit doesn't want to work with you, take your charcoals and start burning the badger ass herb and take the spirits seal and start burning the corner on the charcoal in the asafoetida smoke. Right about now, you'll have no more fighting spirit. As for your second question, I'm not sure if finding a personal spirit is better or not. I would argue that working with them all is best. There is the idea that goetics gain control over the magician by means of making them obsessed with this demon or that demon, so you would have to watch out for that.

Fr. N.'. T.'.

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

Post by Muloc7253 »

That was a great response but I think his/her first question was a little more simple, I think they're just asking if it might be considered disrespectful (by the demon) to burn their sigil, or if he shouldn't have to worry about this.
Wild cats shall meet with desert beasts, satyrs shall call to one another, there shall the Lilith repose, and find for herself a place to rest.

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

Post by Malk »

Thank you both for the answers. Yes, that was mainly my first question. I've read from different sources that it's highly disrespectful to the Demon to burn their sigil, while others say it's fine if not done in a treacherous or hurtful/disrespectful manner.

Also Frater_NT, I have no interest in insulting your practices, but I have no interest in threatening or forcing Demons to do anything for me. I want to work with them if they choose to work with me based off of my worthiness.

Frater_NT

Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

Post by Frater_NT »

Understandable [grin2] I've seen a few books with this philosophy about treating the demons with respect and having a deep relationship with them. I certainly would caution you against the attitude of having them work with you based on your worthiness. Remember, you are God incarnate. You are the Master of your own universe! You can summon up those buggers and have a relationship with them, but at the end of the day they answer to you! [twisted]

Fr. N.'. T.'.

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

Post by Azkhet »

Malk wrote:
Also Frater_NT, I have no interest in insulting your practices, but I have no interest in threatening or forcing Demons to do anything for me. I want to work with them if they choose to work with me based off of my worthiness.
There's no disrespect intended here, merely statement of fact. You will fail at the Goetia if you keep this attitude. The Goetic spirits are manifestations of lower-order impulses in the universe trying to attain higher order in service to things already in that higher order, which includes you. They feed off of insecurities, weaknesses, failures, and doubts. If you base your ability to work with them on some nebulous "worthiness" you think you may have, you are asking them to fuck you over because you are telling them you do not have the strength of will (ie, the strength of being from a higher order of creation) in order to compel them. So, grow a pair and hold the other end of the leash firmly with Goetic spirits, or they'll leash you - that's why so many people think Goetic spirits are dangerous. They aren't, not really... if you understand how it works.

What is your reading material for the Goetia? Please tell me you're not trying to work that abortion in the back of the Kraig's Modern Magick.

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

Post by Malk »

Could you to explain further what you mean?

The Lemegeton and various sources (online) coming from the Satanist (Traditional/Spiritual/Theistic) Community.

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

Post by Azkhet »

Sure. Assuming you're working with some ubah ubah ceremonial version of the Goetia (thinking Mathers?) we're dealing with a real entity that exists outside of you and not as some element of your subconscious or psyche. Remember the cosmological setup of the Goetia -- God is up on top, the Goetic demons way below, and you (humans) exist higher on that continuum than the demons. The demons' goal is to move higher on this scale, and they do so by obeying and fulfilling the higher-order desires of creatures above them. Their impulse is to obey God. Your job as a magician is to stand in as God.

The beginning part of the ritual is the cleansing part. You beat yourself with hyssop, splash around in some pure water, say some prayers ("that my desired end be effected through the strength of ADONAI"... right?), and then put on your spiffy robe (don't forget the lion skin belt, lol.) Then you step into your nifty circle and start mispronouncing some Hebrew until you win. The first part is really a whole ritual itself. You are cleansing yourself and donning robes of power in your anointed place as God within the circle (if you're doing the Crowley version, you ARE God... same thing, for the purposes of this.) This means you are already worthy because you are God here. You order the demons with the authority of God. God does not ask demons if He is worthy to work with them. If you have to ask the demon if you're worthy, you've proven that you're not. Some of the critters in the Goetia aren't that unruly but many will start acting squirrelly, disobedient, and worse - they know you don't have the will to control them.

You'll see that Goetic spirits act/react in way that screws with you mentally and emotionally, but they don't always do it out of intended evil maliciousness -- they act that way because that's how they're "put together" ... do you get mad when you get stung by a scorpion? Take Phenex, #37. He sings with the sweet voice of a child, and is obedient, and so forth. Doesn't sound like a bad spirit, right? Well, the Pseudomonarchia Daemonum warns you against listening to this particular spirit's sweet voice for very long. Why? Because it's so childlike and so enticing that you want to listen to this cute little harmless flaming bird, and so the summoner willingly enters its fiery mouth... or so the old grimoires say. Trust me, that yearning to believe the lovely sing-song voice will be very real, playing hard on your emotional control. If you're already inclined to be nice to the sweet little birdie, you've got a serious goddamn problem. It just asks for one small thing... and one more ... and gee, just this other thing... and you being so nice and so generous, you give in. Now tell me who is running the show here: the magician or Phenex? Hint: it's not the guy in the robe.

My comment about lower-order impulses stems from that some believe Goetic demons do not exist externally of us (like Mathers assumes) but as manifestations of lower energy impulses and urges within us... didn't know which version of the Goetia you're playing with.

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

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Not Mathers as I believe they exist as entities not of the internal self. I have the Peterson version but I'm going to also be reading up on S. Connolly version of Demonology and working with Demons (Goetia). Where specifically are you getting you're information pertaining to these Demons? My knowledge of them is they actually have positions under Satan/Lucifer (to me same entity) in his Kingdom, so shouldn't be addressed in a commanding manner.

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

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The Goetia as people use it/refer to it today is based off of a piece of work called The Lesser Key of Solomon, as translated by a man named Mathers (go Google for a copy.) Mathers compiled this Lesser Key from a number of earlier medieval grimoires such as the Pseudomonarchia Daemonum, which was published around 1570-ish, I think (I have a number of translations of medieval grimoires that mention these critters here and there... you might want to looked into Crossed Keys by Michael Ceccetelli, if you are so interested. He spent around 40 years putting together medieval grimoires into a usable format, and I really think he's the best of the bunch. YMMV, of course.) Since it is a compiled work, there are inconsistencies. Take Belial, for example. Is he a demon out of the Lesser Key, or one of the 4 Princes overseeing Hell? Are there two Belials? Is Belial just confused? The Pseuomonarchia only lists 68 spirits in total. Were Vassago, Andromalius, and the rest just late to the party? Since the Lesser Key is a compiled work from a bunch of earlier grimoires that already claimed wild-ass shit to their origins, take the descriptions of the mighty demon princes with a grain of salt. [yay]

With that said, the ritual snippet I provided you is specifically from Mathers; since I wasn't sure precisely which version you were using, I decided to go back to the Gold Standard, as it were. Mathers indicates that your authority comes from God. The ritual format remains static (you in a position of divine authority - however you want to define it - commanding a creature below you in the divine order) in Crowley's version of the Goetia, although he changes the "standing in for God" thing to "I am God, so obey me." My source for that is Uncle Al's Illustrated Goetia, naturally. I mentioned Uncle Al specifically because his version of the work is quintessentially left-hand path. Whether your authority is conferred from Lucifer, Loki, Papa Legba or Lord Bubba Jesus Almighty, it's still conferred from another higher authority; Crowley's takes a broad turn away from the essentially right-hand path standard. Uncle Al flat-out tells you that the "spirits of the Goetia are emanations of the human brain. Their seals therefore represent methods of stimulating or regulating those particular spots (through the eye)." That's directly out of the Illustrated Goetia, incidentally. Because of this, the Goetia is successfully worked taking God and Lucifer completely out of the picture, too. As such, there's a group of people out of LA that are working a version of the Goetia in a Quimbanda format with Exu, for example (can't remember the name of the temple, I think they had videos on Youtube, tho.)

So why are we calling them demons? So, given the apparent cultural source of the grimoires (medieval Europe) it makes sense that spirits centered around dealing with worldly, earthly matters would be classed as demons (the opposite of worldly matters would be divinely elevated ones, and so naturally those spirits are termed angels.) Given the apparent universality of this class of spirits (as universal as the human mind), it does not follow that they are exclusive to the God/Lucifer setup. Indeed, if the Hindi had a fetish for ceremonial magic, we might be summoning the 72 rakshasa originally bound by holy Krishna instead.

There is a camp within the Satanist/Luciferian community that has a religious bend to it. I don't agree with it since I think it's antithetical to magical practice and the LHP in general, but a lot of people want to go that route, so whatever. Even if this is your point of view, it does not follow to treat this particular class of spirits in this format because they are not "native" to it, in a sense -- they can and do act independently from the God/Lucifer setup, and do not behave like "normal" demons (if there is such a thing... call Lilith one, I suppose, as an example) because that's not the nature of their setup. Summoning up Lilith and trying to compel her to do something for you is a whole damned different rodeo than a Goetic spirit. I used Phenex as a specific example because I spent 2 years summoning Phenex at least once a week -- I know how very, very compelling and sweet that little bastard is, and I'm already soft-hearted by nature, so dealing with him was a real struggle for me for a long time. So, there's that.

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

Post by Malk »

Thank you for the write up. A few things you have to understand, though I'm new to invocative magick and have not personally worked with any demons, I don't believe these to be actual entities. I have not read the Al/Mathers version as the one I own is the Peterson one, however I have a few other Grimoires coming to me via Amazon. Thanks for the insight as I wasn't fully aware of the making of the Goetia. Belial has always made me question it as next to Satan/Lucifer, Beelzebub, and Leviathan, he's one of the princes of hell therefore can't exactly be manifesting himself as a demon who would technically be lower then himself.

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

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I have about ten years of experience working with creatures out of the Goetia in various styles. I freely admit that I began with the Mathers version, though I quickly moved on the the Uncle Al version because the Bornless One mashup in the beginning fit my paradigm better. Because it appears the Goetia spirits are universal to the human consciousness, I recommend learning the how's and why's of a few "standard" versions before creating your own ritual. For example, you'll see that spirits are usually invoked with a triangle. A Golden Dawn-type ceremonialist will tell you that's because a triangle is three sided, Saturn's number is three, and therefore the triangle is for constraint. A chaote might merrily tell you that triangle forms part of a coordinate system so the Goetic spirit can locate in you space/time, and therefore you don't need to use a triangle exactly, just something to help establish which (sub)X-Y-Z-T plane in which you currently exist and are calling from. Neither magician is necessarily incorrect in this case, given the nature/origin of the critters of the Goetia.

If you're interested in the mechanix of spirit invocation, you might look into Farber's book Brain Magick. He analyzes invocation from a neuropsychological point of view, so it's pretty interesting (he's a little dippy in the first chapter, I admit, but it gets waaaaay better afterwards, I promise.) Tons of useful exercises, too. If you want to learn about evocation, the book lots of folks plagiarize is Koetting's Evoking Eternity, so you might as well get it straight from the source.

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

Post by Malk »

Sorry for the late response.

Thank you for the answer. I'll take some time and further my Gnosis on the Demons before I start doing rituals. Right now I'm furthering my relationship with Lucifer/Satan, but I do in the future want to work with Demons to help improve myself and get closer to the divine.

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

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Out of curiosity, what is your point of view regarding Lucifer? Is he the adversary of the demiurge (as my husband would put it), do you take the more atheistic LaVeyan view, or ...?

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

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I have a large disdain for LaVey and the Church of Satan for various reasons.

As for Lucifer, unlike many Satanist I view Lucifer to be Satan and Satan to be Lucifer. Both making one, this one being the adversary to the tyrant Demiurge.

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

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And I think your information is starting to settle with me. I feel that it may be against my well being to treat the Demons as superior to me as they are lesser then Gods, and we are Gods to be. I'm still going to further study up on the matter as I like to go into magick and communication with the divine with a head full of knowledge.

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

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Malk wrote:And I think your information is starting to settle with me. I feel that it may be against my well being to treat the Demons as superior to me as they are lesser then Gods, and we are Gods to be. I'm still going to further study up on the matter as I like to go into magick and communication with the divine with a head full of knowledge.
There. Now ya got it. :-)

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

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Most of what I've learned about dealing with demons is from Joy of Satan Ministries...I'm not sure if their way is the 'right' way, but they do seem to take extra care to respect and build good, mutually beneficial relationships with demons. So I'm guessing that their advice couldn't hurt.

Why burn or destroy the sigils? If they're on flat pieces of paper, then just buy a folder (very cheap at Walmart or any drugstore) and keep them in the folders. If the papers are large, fold them up neatly and put them in the folders. Unless the people around you are going to be digging through your personal belongings, the folder should be sufficient to hide the sigils from them. Even if they did find them, they probably wouldn't know what it was...so you could easily just tell them it's art or something.

As for the second question...demonic relationships are probably similar to human relationships: it is better to have a few close friends than it is to have a bunch of acquaintances that you don't know very well. If you're working with fewer demons, it'll probably be easier to keep up with them and become closer to them than it would be if you were working with several.

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

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ThreeWhens wrote:Most of what I've learned about dealing with demons is from Joy of Satan Ministries...I'm not sure if their way is the 'right' way, but they do seem to take extra care to respect and build good, mutually beneficial relationships with demons. So I'm guessing that their advice couldn't hurt.

Why burn or destroy the sigils? If they're on flat pieces of paper, then just buy a folder (very cheap at Walmart or any drugstore) and keep them in the folders. If the papers are large, fold them up neatly and put them in the folders. Unless the people around you are going to be digging through your personal belongings, the folder should be sufficient to hide the sigils from them. Even if they did find them, they probably wouldn't know what it was...so you could easily just tell them it's art or something.

As for the second question...demonic relationships are probably similar to human relationships: it is better to have a few close friends than it is to have a bunch of acquaintances that you don't know very well. If you're working with fewer demons, it'll probably be easier to keep up with them and become closer to them than it would be if you were working with several.
Burning or destroying the sigils can either terminate a Goetic working (depending on context) or be used to threaten or punish the demon - getting a demon's sigil full of asfoetida smoke for disobedience, for example. As already discussed, these are not "demons" in the same sense that you appear to be using the term.

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

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Azkhet wrote:
ThreeWhens wrote:Most of what I've learned about dealing with demons is from Joy of Satan Ministries...I'm not sure if their way is the 'right' way, but they do seem to take extra care to respect and build good, mutually beneficial relationships with demons. So I'm guessing that their advice couldn't hurt.

Why burn or destroy the sigils? If they're on flat pieces of paper, then just buy a folder (very cheap at Walmart or any drugstore) and keep them in the folders. If the papers are large, fold them up neatly and put them in the folders. Unless the people around you are going to be digging through your personal belongings, the folder should be sufficient to hide the sigils from them. Even if they did find them, they probably wouldn't know what it was...so you could easily just tell them it's art or something.

As for the second question...demonic relationships are probably similar to human relationships: it is better to have a few close friends than it is to have a bunch of acquaintances that you don't know very well. If you're working with fewer demons, it'll probably be easier to keep up with them and become closer to them than it would be if you were working with several.
Burning or destroying the sigils can either terminate a Goetic working (depending on context) or be used to threaten or punish the demon - getting a demon's sigil full of asfoetida smoke for disobedience, for example. As already discussed, these are not "demons" in the same sense that you appear to be using the term.

I actually didn't read the rest of the posts until now...I haven't read much about demons outside of what JoS teaches, so I see what you're saying now.

But I do have one question...

Until a human's fate is decided (heaven or hell), then can't humans go either way? So why can humans command demons with the authority of God, when it's not even certain whether they'll earn a place in heaven yet?

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

Post by Ramscha »

The gods of today are demons of tomorrow. Look like Allah is demonized in the media already.
The mesopotemian people also had their demons, children of Tiamat and evil spirits. I don´t want to offend people who believe in a monotheistic almighty god, but there were cultures before this god was even known by name where demons were known, evoked or fought. So I think there may be difficulties with the paradigm if you want to command in the Name of Tetragrammaton the old bloodthirsty gods of vodun.

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Re: Burning a Demons (Goetia) sigil?

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Without getting into the specifics, in the context you're speaking of Heaven is merely eternal existence with Yahweh and hell is eternal existence deprived of him. In this case, though I by that definition believe in hell (and embrace it), I do not believe in heaven as I do not believe worshipers of Yahweh can cross that bridge into Chaos.

Now I have fully embraced the aspect of going into Demon invocation, though I have yet to do so, with commanding attitudes.


Also, Joy of Satan Ministries have other intentions then simply spreading Satanist information to feed a Satanist wisdom.

This is a good site that goes into details on what I'm speaking of, though if one thoroughly looks through the entire website all that is found in this link can be found on the site.
http://factsofjos.angelfire.com/

Now I'm indifferent towards racist and nationalist/racialist views, so my bias towards JoS isn't coming from an anti-racist bias but a bias for wrong information shared with untold intentions.

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