Why have we not eliminated the middle man yet?

[magari]

Why are we still evoking gods, spirits, angels, demons, fairies to "do our bidding" or "teach us lessons" when we are just as capable ourselves?

Why, when most of us start out, we prefer to learn about magick and the universal will through "beings" instead of looking at the source?

Why do we choose to dissect and monetize darkness into legions of demons with their own personalities and contrasts, essentially creating our own maze through the darkness when all we need is an understanding of duality?

Why do we assign hierarchies of angels to guide and protect us on our path towards the light when really we just need to know which direction the light is coming from?

Why do we complicate very simple things?

Why do we focus on the details that do nothing but distract us from the bigger picture/goal?

Why do we prefer to communicate with God through Jesus instead of presenting ourselves before God, just as Jesus did so long ago?

Why can't we get our heads out of the mud?

Why, when we have realized the Truth, do we still promote the details that distract from the Truth?

Why can't the "enlightened" ones of christianity and islam "get along"? Why do they choose actions that promote separation, chaos, and disorder instead of unity, harmony, and order?

I'm starting to realize the "enlightened" ones aren't very enlightened at all.

[RoseRed]

Why do we send our children to school? You may not currently require a teacher to explain to you what it is that you're seeing and doing - other's do.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

Stepping stones.

Part of the problem with organized Christianity, especially within its protestant evangelical form, was that it gave no bridge to God - just preached the sense of our absolute inferiority and unworthiness.

I suppose it one wishes to go the mystic path and either do nothing but Buddhist meditation or attempt to do original Carmelite things like meditate on a picture of Jesus and only that - they may very well get their way of shooting up the middle pillar.

It doesn't seem like there's a lot of ability to do much without description unless you're either trying to abandon all physical existence (pure mystic) or trying to enjoy the physical world as much as you can (pure materialist). The magician attempts to embrace the best of both of these, to check all of the inner workings in between and try to elevate/expand but also avoids snubbing Adonai Ha Aretz (Lord of Malkuth) as 'materialistic'.

That's where we need to create scaffolding. Seems like your ability to liberate yourself or explore vast vistas can only happen if you know they're there to be explored, to know how to get to them, and finding your way out of the cage that life creates takes a lot of very specific kinds of tools - they don't always need to be the same as different magic systems show but the point is they need to work on the subconscious in that manner.

One guy I do martial arts with, even happens to be 12 Temple in AMORC, always told me that he can't stand rigid oldschool magicians saying things need to be done exactly X, Y, and Z, and I think that's also why he's not a fan of esoteric work at all because sees it as more of the same junk. I actually take a very different attitude on it - rigorous directions don't tell you that you can't do A, B, or C without grave consequences, they just give you a means of getting more defined space, more defined gradients, more distance in your own thinking, ie. the scaffolding climbs out farther. If you don't put a lot into a particular working you won't get a lot out of it. If you put a lot of rigor into it you'll get great results, and sometimes greater results still will come easiest of all - those times take a certain kind of inner/subconscious knowledge that you probably never would have discovered without 'paying your dues' with your own subconscious and taking down the barriers. I think of it like certain genres of music as well where a tight set of genre restrictions cause people to push much deeper and get much more elegant, refined, and inspirational sounds than if they'd said 'who needs these limits!'.

That's where I see angels, demons, and all the various beings and hierarchies that magicians deal with. On one hand they're working with these beings as a tool-kit. No doubt if you drop a hit of acid vs. trying to imagine yourself tripping its a very different thing. It's almost as broad a difference in result if a person tries to imagine feeling an emotion vs. invoking the god or goddess best associated with that emotion. It's scaffolding, it's that way of - if you can't reach the top shelf of a cabinet and all you have is chairs - you're able to carefully stack a chair on top of a chair to reach what you need. The other reason that almost goes without saying - curiosity and the desire to explore. There are beings all around us going through their own evolutions at different densities, for some we're fact of life for others they'd be as surprised by us as we'd be by them. That kind of exploration and knowledge building is a heck of a lot more interesting, educational, and certainly less expensive even than trying to fly all over the world and be a world-class Michelin traveler. If you're born with Crowley's money you can do both, most of us aren't.

[Desecrated]

It's easier to use 5% of the force then to try and use all the force at the same time.

[Sypheara]

Why are we still evoking gods, spirits, angels, demons, fairies to "do our bidding" or "teach us lessons" when we are just as capable ourselves?

Because that isn't the case. Most Gods have vastly more knowledge than any small human being. If you were to meet a higher level face to face. this would be apparent. Such Gods have the ability to control times and dimensions with a thought and could snuff out our universe in an instant. This is beyond even the greatest of Adepts.

Why, when most of us start out, we prefer to learn about magick and the universal will through "beings" instead of looking at the source?

For myself it wasnt a preference, but a demand from Her to follow her Path. She IS the source - the chaos that gave birth to form.

Why do we choose to dissect and monetize darkness into legions of demons with their own personalities and contrasts, essentially creating our own maze through the darkness when all we need is an understanding of duality?

This hierarchy is inherent, wildlife lives in the wilds. Daemons live in the chthonic and dark realms, as well as all others. As is their nature. The maze exists as its own set of realms. Its not about duality, which is a lie - both sides of the coin are still the same coin.

Why do we assign hierarchies of angels to guide and protect us on our path towards the light when really we just need to know which direction the light is coming from?

Same as above. These heirarchies are inherent and not assigned by anyone but the Gods, and Fate/Circumstance.

Why do we complicate very simple things?

The universe and existence is most definitely not simple. If it was, more people would know the answers to the big questions / be in contact with their own nature. The truth is startlingly complex, and paradoxical in nature.

Why do we focus on the details that do nothing but distract us from the bigger picture/goal?

Human nature can preclude us to obsessing over small details, this is even easier when the complexity of the Answer is taken into account.

Why do we prefer to communicate with God through Jesus instead of presenting ourselves before God, just as Jesus did so long ago?

Having an intermediary is pretty common to many world religions. Depending on belief, sometimes God is too far removed from humanity and needs an intercessor. This is not my personal belief but its one to keep in mind. I believe in Gods that speak, and are anything but silent, and can be contacted and worked with directly in the Flesh.

Why can't we get our heads out of the mud?

Humanity is a mostly failed race. I believe this is caused by a spiritual sickness, that has become even more pronounced over the past thousand or so years. Living in cosy ignorance is better than living in the challenging and grim reality of our own making.

Why, when we have realized the Truth, do we still promote the details that distract from the Truth?

The truth is always interpreted differently as very few, if any have properly assimilated it. As such each person gets a different set of the fractal - the details that dont match become the sticking points. Humans also in the main wish to be 'right' to promote their own ego. Very few people have no ego in this regard and those who do are well past bothering to engage in such discussions.

Why can't the "enlightened" ones of christianity and islam "get along"? Why do they choose actions that promote separation, chaos, and disorder instead of unity, harmony, and order?

Chaos and Disorder are natural reactions as things decay, the ways in which the natural law breaks down stagnancy, bacteria breaking down a corpse. Destruction leads to regeneration. Both of these sun cults are well past their time. Humans also like to prove that their group is better than others - any division or difference is an potential excuse for conflict to boost the singular or group ego.

I'm starting to realize the "enlightened" ones aren't very enlightened at all.

Most people who go by or describe themselves are simply like many other in the occult world - snakeoil salesmen out to make a cheap buck. Historically this has always been the case. Sociopaths love taking the path of least resistance.

My 2 tired cence before bed. Nice to post again.

[magari]

In my experience that which precedes everything else is incredibly simple.

Duality is not an illusion, but merely our method of interpreting reality. Oneness is the truth, but then why do we bother with the details within each side of the coin. Why not work with the coin itself, or even easier; one side at a time?

[Shinichi]

The very fact that you carelessly label all of those things as a mere "middle man" that must be eliminated tells me that you do not understand their true nature and purpose at all.

You see, there is a certain difference between Mysticism and most styles of Magick. If you want to practice Mysticism, that is fine. There are many styles of Yoga, Qi Gong, and several other things that can give you exactly what you are asking for. There are even many styles of Magick that focus entirely on using the principles of Metaphysics to achieve the goals of Mysticism as fast as possible. But, simply aiming for the destination is not the best use of the Magick I have come to love and know.

Magick is the study and practice of Metaphysics. We study the non-physical forces of nature; those rules, principles, and beings that are there, and then we work with those rules, principles, and beings in order to learn, and in order to bend and stretch the rules and principles especially - to control the subtle, and influence the solid. Magick should not ignore and bypass all of those forces of nature simply to get to the end goal, because for us who are dedicated to Magick, it is not the destination that is the most important point - it is the journey. We know that we will get to that end of the road you so obviously seek, so we decide to slow down and appreciate the flowers by the road side. To disregard the journey, the experience of the journey, is to completely miss the point and the beauty of life itself!

Yet there are many who seek exactly what you speak of. Why bother with the details, when you can zoom out and go straight to the destination? Indeed, there are many, many paths and traditions who seek this. The fastest way up the mountain, the fastest road to Ecstasy or Bliss.

If this is what you want, I encourage you to pursue your passion and I can even suggest some things for you if you would like, but do not forget that there is also Bliss in slowing down to appreciate the details - to smell the roadside flowers, or stop for a swim in the lake. This is Magick. The details. The Metaphysics, with all the complicated rules and principles and everything to learn and understand. This is life, and love, and nature in all her glory. Why in the world would I want to miss such a beautiful experience?

Middle man indeed!



~:Shin:~

[magari]

I've been doing this for a while....

over 10 years at least.

I've yet to find any "being" that existed outside of our collective consciousness, or the collective consciousness of other animals.

To me its not about getting there fast, but eliminating any unnecessary suffering along the way.

Why bother exploring the hierarchy of demons when you can work with darkness as 1 of 2. Instead of 1 of 20+ demons with intricate relationships that serve only to keep you in the dark.

Why bother aiming for an angel to the left or the right when the light is directly ahead?

I've had this discussion with many witches, magicians, mystics, ect.

I'm very masculine. I am up in your face getting a good look, poking your chest and asking questions. Testing my theories and the theories of others without remorse.

I have yet to find anything that stood up to my tests. They all dissolve under the light, retracting back into the human consciousness from which they came.

In my experience... we precede the gods, the demons, the angels, all of it is our own creation. Patterns we drew in the chaos at the dawn of our own consciousness. This is what I've seen.

Besides humanity, there are other animals on this earth and their collective consciousness seems to be doing the same. Where I live, the presence of insects is so intense that it precedes them in physical form. This collective consciousness I've given a pattern, a symbol, a name, but this was my choice. Its just easier when you wish to communicate with more than one bug at a time.

I've had to sit out of "evocations" because I was told my light is too bright for the "spirits" to come close enough, or whatever. The magician in charge of the ritual blamed my cynicism, but I was far from cynical. Only curious, but I guess that was too much.

A bunch of primitive individuals who don't see enough mystery in the world that they must create their own.

I'm not looking for the "fast" way.... trust me, I'm very aware that doesn't exist. No matter what your discipline.... it takes time and discipline.

However, I don't feel like we are providing our future with the proper tools based on the modern understanding of the reality we live in.

Hence why our youth are just a bunch of idiots trying to cast love spells and summon satan instead of pursuing an understanding of the principals.

Why not just stick with the principals and let people decide for themselves? It would eliminate so much suffering in this man's opinion.

I've chased demons and angels to the ends of the earth. They are hiding inside the humans who created them. They spread from one to the next through occult literature, religion, and people like us who preach all day and night.

When I started there were angels and demons and spirits ect. I remember one angel, when I pursued it it dissolved back into my own light, grateful to return. The demons did the same, dissolving into my darkness. When I pursued the mysteries, the details dissolved into the All, the demons, angels, gods, and spirits ceased to exist. Now where I walk all that exists is the All itself. All banishment became was the reorganization of my own experience and the experience of others. I've lost count of how much suffering I've eliminated with this perspective, for myself, for others old and young.

I was hoping there might be someone here who has experienced the same.

I think most of us come to the occult seeking answers to the mysteries in our own lives. Confused by the complexity and details of our own experience, it makes sense that magick works the same way. In my experience its incredibly simple. Complexity is an illusion. Separation is an illusion.

The only thing left now, that I've felt since I could remember (I have memories before I could speak), is a pattern drawn by something alien to this planet. Thats what I'm chasing now, but it wasn't until I assimilated all our names and labels of things under one umbrella that the contrast came into focus.

In other words, whatever presence that exists beyond human consciousness (collective or individual), is a creation of something that doesn't physically exist on this planet. Its gotta be something some mystic before me has experienced, but based on my research and how I experience it, the only word I have is "Alien". Its also incredibly protected. From where I stand it looks like it could possibly exist within the presence of humanities greatest leaders and visionaries. Within the secret societies of secret societies. The illuminati's illuminati.

but I digress.

I'm all about empowering people, and in my experience we keep blaming everything that happens on things outside of our control. Life without responsibility is a bit easier I suppose, but far from whats really going on in this man's opinion.

[palindrom]

i think people are just very very different.

so, the "we", in my opinion, doesn't really exist, at least not spiritually.
i mean, sure, it exists insofar as we are all here on this planet and we have bodies which are very clear in their desires.
and our thoughts and actions are very interwoven.
but the way one chooses, that's really up to each one alone.


...to me, spirits, gods, angels, fairies, they are not middle-persons between me and the source.
they are beings, having and telling their stories, just like you and me.
and i like listening to stories

...to me, also, the big darkness-and-light is not so important. it's about the whole spectrum, every shade.
i'm not really looking for a solution anymore,
i'm enjoying myself, in the middle of it all

...to me, suffering is just one part of the spectrum,
and i'm not really trying to eliminate it anymore,
i just try to stay loving;
in my own middle, being my own middle-person, one could say

...a center i build out of love, acceptance, vision, and a smile about it all [happyface]

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

I'm not sure where the suffering comes in?

Most western orders are panentheist in nature - they'd fully agree with the fundamentals of what you're saying - ie. it's all one God, one mascule and feminine, one light and dark. From there you're working in the potentials of what you're mind can create, occasionally with the help of what seem to amount abstractly to mathematical pivot points. Deities seem like the color chart - there's a specific shade of green-blue that's teal, a specific shade of green-blue that's aquamarine, etc. etc. and at a minimum they're shorthand for places where you can get a specific result; given faces to maximize the payload.

I have yet to truly get out and test whether they're really there or all man-made egregores but at the same time at this point I'd suppose that I'm not particularly concerned. There's no reason for them to cause me suffering because there's nowhere in panentheistic philosophy that they're responsible for my suffering, in fact my own life path and lessons needing learned are the cause of that suffering and I'm supposed to be grateful for any opportunity to improve.

I guess that's where I get back to my comment on scaffolding - the deities of the collective unconscious are like a pharmacy that helps you add here, subtract there, but ultimately they help people balance the four elements if that's their goal. If anything I'd think that Manichean-style dualism is the causal link for deities and suffering and I don't subscribe to that.

[Maya The Generator]

I have similar feelings to Palindrom in that case.

Have a good day and Praise teh Sun \[T]/

[Sypheara]

I wish I could agree. My own work in possession and that of others within the primal path strongly reveals these Gods and Spirits as very separate entities.

When I look at Humanity I see its obsession with it sown ego, obsession with believing it alone created these God, Spirits, other forms etc, without even asking - where did that information come from in the first place?

We dont make anything new. We are incapable of it, all we can do is rearrange, live within and manipulate the patterns of the universes which houses us. This information is inherent in the system, we just move it, play with the symbols. But they are not ours, certainly, not ours. They are gifts given to us.

Just borrowed language, borrowed capacity. It would take apotheosis to change that, real apotheosis.

I also see and feel that the occult world has become full of arrogance and full of sociopaths. People who believe they are 'Gods' without anything to prove it. We saw how far being a 'living god' got E.A Koetting - locked in jail, where he belongs.

We agree on one thing however: that passing of the ball onto anything other than us being responsible when things go south.

That is a very human trait - that nothing to do with the Gods and Spirits. Its again human nature as living in ignorance is safer and more comforting. The fact however, you can talk about this, and then talk about suffering is quite interesting.

To admit you are alone responsible for your actions is to learn via suffering, it is to take on a burden, and is a necessary part of the path. My own personal view is there is no destination on that path.. only the journey itself. An endless cycle of fractals of neverending potential, endlessly birthed and devoured.

I have no desire to chase something I already possess.

[RoseRed]

This is the part that I don't understand - you talk about being above all of the details and looking for the source but you focus on the large quantity of insects. The insects are part of the details.

If those are the creatures that are being drawn to you - perhaps it's something to consider.

[magari]

The insect pattern is one I solidified in moving chaos to better interact with that detail.

It's my own version of beezelbulb or whatever you decide to call it.

This was a bit of chaos that needed some order to allow me to exist within it harmoniously.

The details are inescapable, but we learn by observing the parallels. Understanding comes from finding common threads.

If I subscribed to a single paradigm I would be nowhere near where I am today. The details didn't serve, the big picture did

[magari]

Sypheara :


My experience has been just the opposite.

In my opinion humanity has done nothing but grow and evolve and accomplish amazing things.

We are continuing to do so.

Our language is our own.

[Sypheara]

I agree people can have different experiences. I cannot however agree that we have anything but very much missed our mark.

Humanity has certainly grown and evolved, to do more damage. It's 'amazing things' poisoning the very world we live on.

I'd like some evidence of all this amazing growth that can counter even half the examples I could roll off a list.

I could go on. We have little time left to learn from our mistakes. We cant hide behind the Gods when the reaper comes collecting.

[magari]

Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eye off the goal.

If you think you can or you think you cant, either way you are correct.

You can't experience success without understanding failure.

The plants and animals might not be better off. But this organism has eyeballs floating further into the chaos than ever before. We are about to evolve off this rock.

Nothing exists outside the will of the universe. Destruction is just as beautiful and necessary.

[Sypheara]

To me that rings entirely hollow.

It's easier to not take responsibility for our own sins and buy into this 'progress' lie we are told from birth.

It is of course however quite fake. There is no easy escape for man into space, no exoplanets are within our current reach nor are as we know capable of supporting life.

Leaving the flesh that birthed us raped and burnt to the ground isn't progress. Its sheer human stupidity.

Nothing exists outside the will of the universe indeed. But we are a part of it, not its masters, and like locusts are doing a good job of consuming ourselves. That is simply the facts on paper.

I hope future generations will not have to suffer as a consequence.

[magari]

Death disease and poverty have decreased dramatically since the beginning of written history.

Focus where you will. I prefer to enjoy and honor the gift of life. I can't imagine you being a genuinely happy person with these opinions, but if it works for you so be it.

[magari]

I don't know who's propoganda is worse.

Decide for yourself I suppose.

http://nyti.ms/1L8XIbK

This is progress in my opinion.

One step at a time.

[Maya The Generator]

Lives of humanity maybe are better.

Look at lives of non human entities on this planet.

Some prosper...

[Stukov]

I've never used other beings in the way you have described, I've always worked on my own, independent of anything related to this board. In fact, most of my most powerful abilities I used to have came on from self-teaching and knowing absolutely nothing about the occult. Even later on all it did was give me some common language to use with a few others. It isn't to say that I haven't occasional worked with other beings, but I usually help them just as much as they might assist me. I do use some assistance through others with augmentation of reflexes and reminding me of things when I forget, but primarily, if I there is anything I do with other beings is just general conversation just as I would any other person. I put no more weight to their words than a random stranger. If you guys choose to work through others that's your choice, I've just always focused on what I can do myself, and if someone or something wants to assist, then they are free to do so with no strings attached. I do the same, help others with no expectation.

[RoseRed]

Another way to look at the idea of the middle man is that it's actually you. You stand between your goal and where you draw the power from to manipulate it. Just a random thought.

[minervajane]

You don't have to work with middlemen, but why not? Sometimes they just show up - without being invited - to teach, warn, guide, etc. It doesn't really matter if they are your own projections or something external. What's important is that you hear the messages. You can't hear the messages if there is too much chatter rumbling around in your head. You aren't even clearly hearing the words being said to you in the mundane world. Your frustration is obvious. Sometimes we need to just slow down and take a breath. There are good reasons why we can't go straight to the source of all that there is. It can cause separation from reality and men with straight-jackets at your door.

[MagusSalgon]

Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eye off the goal.

If you think you can or you think you cant, either way you are correct.

You can't experience success without understanding failure.

The plants and animals might not be better off. But this organism has eyeballs floating further into the chaos than ever before. We are about to evolve off this rock.

Nothing exists outside the will of the universe. Destruction is just as beautiful and necessary.

Well said!

Stay focused, stay concentrated that is the only way to unlock your true power.