Where the hell does the occult and magick come from?!

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neckrow
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Where the hell does the occult and magick come from?!

Post by neckrow »

So I was reading around the forums and seemed to notice something...Satanism isn't considered true...but then...what about demons and magick? Where the hell does it come from? Especially demons, if Satan didn't create, let's say Goetia and demons then who the hell did? I am confused af!

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Re: Where the hell does the occult and magick come from?!

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neckrow wrote:So I was reading around the forums and seemed to notice something...Satanism isn't considered true...but then...what about demons and magick? Where the hell does it come from? Especially demons, if Satan didn't create, let's say Goetia and demons then who the hell did? I am confused af!
The human brain.

neckrow
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Re: Where the hell does the occult and magick come from?!

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What does that mean....

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Re: Where the hell does the occult and magick come from?!

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And now for a somewhat longer answer (that still requires that you do some reading of your own.)

The concept of demons comes from the greek word daimon or daimonion. Which means different things during different periods (we are talking a bout at least 600 years) but mostly we translate it to spirits.

Goetia is also an old greek word and basically means sorcery.

The concept of controlling spirits goes back as far as we know. Everything we think of as magic today is described in the Westcar Papyrus (rituals, summoning, herbal magic, magic puppets, controlling the elements, performing miracles and so on).
The oldest surviving copy is from 1650bc , but it was most likely written during 2000bc and it describes what happened 2600 bc.
So it's older then the bible with at least 1000 years and much much older then the new testament, satan and all other western concepts that we have today.

Basically, the idea that we are not alone in this world have been with us for a long time. And every culture tweaks the idea to fit their religion. Every 2-300 year we invent new words for old ideas and think that we have discovered something new.

neckrow
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Re: Where the hell does the occult and magick come from?!

Post by neckrow »

So you're saying that when someone says "Summoning Demons" They're just referring to something like a mental state? You left me more confused than I previously was :|

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Re: Where the hell does the occult and magick come from?!

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neckrow wrote:So you're saying that when someone says "Summoning Demons" They're just referring to something like a mental state? You left me more confused than I previously was :|
Yes, that is my personal belief. But I think most people would probably describe it as:

There is some sort of force/idea that we can communicate with and we use the word Demon or Spirit or Angel or God, to describe it. But it's just a word describing "something". Different societies and different religions call it different names, but essentially they are talking about the same thing.

Why some people work with demons but think satanism is bullshit: is because demons predates satanism. It predates christianity and even predates Jewish scripture. Most likely the idea of demons predate the written word entirely.

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Re: Where the hell does the occult and magick come from?!

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So demons aren't physical beings and Goetia isn't a place?

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Re: Where the hell does the occult and magick come from?!

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neckrow wrote:So demons aren't physical beings and Goetia isn't a place?
Goetia isn't a place in any ideology I know of. It's a verb.
In the key of solomon the first chapter is called ars goetia (translating roughly to the "art of sorcery/art of summoning).

And the view on demons is either:

1. They are physical
2. They are usually non-psychical but can take physical form.
3. They are non-physical, but we can see them in our minds eye.
4. They are non-existing. And people are just delusional.

Pick whichever theory makes you the most comfortable.

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Re: Where the hell does the occult and magick come from?!

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From mans quest to reach the divine essence, dating back to the egyptians, moses, abraham, solomon, jesus and all of the people in the bible. The bible is full of riddles about divination, healing, raising the dead and spirituality.

Its no coincidence that the jewish symbol is the pentagram seal. Its also not a coincidence that in churches, they light candle, burn incense, hold staff's and wear robes. In its true antiquity form, priests were practicing magick, or what we call today "the occults".

Thats were it all started, as far as "documented" recorded history goes at least.

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Re: Where the hell does the occult and magick come from?!

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In my personal views everything is one. However for humans it is hard to comprehend that the same god/being gives you joy then unleashes calamities upon you, thus the "creation" of good (God, angels) and evil (Satan, Demons).

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Re: Where the hell does the occult and magick come from?!

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In order to understand what Satanism is you need to recognize the context in which you are referring to it. More than likely it represents the pursuit of the flesh and personal wants of the individual. To a self-denying Christian monk, a drug using sex addict is a Satanist. Satan represents fulfilling bodily desires over a "higher" spiritual form of chastity, charity and mercy. Think of it this way; I want what i want, and I am going to get it no matter what!

A demon would be someone that fulfills the idea of taking what they want. A demon can also be something sent by the Divine onto you to get you to figure out what you want, or to get you to stop wanting what you want, or any number of things. The point of a demon is that you cannot control it, and you have to conquer it. Essentially it is a tool for self mastery. If you think also that YOU are the demon and that you need to master yourself to become an angel, that fits as well.

As far as "other" presences- be they gods or angels or demons... its all about your own perception. Just remember that its not always what you want it to be. [message] [question] [exclaim]

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Re: Where the hell does the occult and magick come from?!

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inMalkuth wrote:In order to understand what Satanism is you need to recognize the context in which you are referring to it. More than likely it represents the pursuit of the flesh and personal wants of the individual. To a self-denying Christian monk, a drug using sex addict is a Satanist. Satan represents fulfilling bodily desires over a "higher" spiritual form of chastity, charity and mercy. Think of it this way; I want what i want, and I am going to get it no matter what!

A demon would be someone that fulfills the idea of taking what they want. A demon can also be something sent by the Divine onto you to get you to figure out what you want, or to get you to stop wanting what you want, or any number of things. The point of a demon is that you cannot control it, and you have to conquer it. Essentially it is a tool for self mastery. If you think also that YOU are the demon and that you need to master yourself to become an angel, that fits as well.

As far as "other" presences- be they gods or angels or demons... its all about your own perception. Just remember that its not always what you want it to be. [message] [question] [exclaim]
I think what you are referring to is relating mostly in atheistic satanism(laveyan satanism). There other kinds of satanism who worship Satan as god and they follow certain rules, trying to be gods or something like this. Also I think that there are demons of goetia(which is not a satanic book at all) who worship Satan others who just serve him and other demons who don't serve or worship Satan. I think that there are many kinds of demons.

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Re: Where the hell does the occult and magick come from?!

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One thing I have always disagreed with is the use of a name from a system when trying to define ones own system. For instance if I am trying to form a God from personal desire or will such as what Aleister Crowley has done, I would not have named myself a Satanist. I would not even mention the word, because for most people it has a negative connotation. As I said, a Christian monk would call a sexually active drug addict (like Crowley) a Satanist, but Crowley himself (even though he championed this idea) probably doesnt think of Satan in the same terms, but accepted his role as the Anti-Christ. He did this for a number of reasons, mostly because his mom called him that, and he believes that we create our world, and by her calling him this he became it. In light of Christian scripture, he is the Beast of Revelations and is fulfilling their prophecy (though he himself probably doesnt accept their definition of this). Still, things are what they are, and when you call yourself a Satanist, you really are that. I could call myself a devote of Athena and pretty much be considered a Satanist because the wisdom I have discovered might be that sex and drugs are good. Ultimately we name things (note that none of this can actually be known anyway) to represent ideas and sets of behavior and ideals. Crowley was a very challenging mind to a lot of people and stirred up a lot of controversy and so he could easily take the moniker of DEMON.

Essentially a pagan, or any adversary or rebel type of personality that contradicts the accepted tradition of the day, is a Satanist. Christianity, as with a lot of other traditions, tend to demonize the previous Gods and name them as demons in their new faith.

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Re: Where the hell does the occult and magick come from?!

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inMalkuth wrote:One thing I have always disagreed with is the use of a name from a system when trying to define ones own system. For instance if I am trying to form a God from personal desire or will such as what Aleister Crowley has done, I would not have named myself a Satanist. I would not even mention the word, because for most people it has a negative connotation. As I said, a Christian monk would call a sexually active drug addict (like Crowley) a Satanist, but Crowley himself (even though he championed this idea) probably doesnt think of Satan in the same terms, but accepted his role as the Anti-Christ. He did this for a number of reasons, mostly because his mom called him that, and he believes that we create our world, and by her calling him this he became it. In light of Christian scripture, he is the Beast of Revelations and is fulfilling their prophecy (though he himself probably doesnt accept their definition of this). Still, things are what they are, and when you call yourself a Satanist, you really are that. I could call myself a devote of Athena and pretty much be considered a Satanist because the wisdom I have discovered might be that sex and drugs are good. Ultimately we name things (note that none of this can actually be known anyway) to represent ideas and sets of behavior and ideals. Crowley was a very challenging mind to a lot of people and stirred up a lot of controversy and so he could easily take the moniker of DEMON.

Essentially a pagan, or any adversary or rebel type of personality that contradicts the accepted tradition of the day, is a Satanist. Christianity, as with a lot of other traditions, tend to demonize the previous Gods and name them as demons in their new faith.
Yes I agree that its wrong to use a name of a specific system when someone is trying to make his own system
When i said atheistic satanism I was referring ti this "In order to understand what Satanism is you need to recognize the context in which you are referring to it. More than likely it represents the pursuit of the flesh and personal wants of the individual". To a self-denying Christian monk, a drug using sex addict is a Satanist. Satan represents fulfilling bodily desires over a "higher" spiritual form of chastity, charity and mercy. Think of it this way; I want what i want, and I am going to get it no matter what!" cause this is very common to laveyan(atheistic) satanism
Cause this is based in the worship of ego and hedonism, and they didnt even believe to Satan and demons as real entities,

Thelema, from the other side, is a little difference, its more philosophical and Crowley was by far better in magic. LaVey wasn't so good magician.


What you are saying about the church is completely true. The church accused as satanic whatever it wasn't with their side.

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