Formless Matter And The Unmanifest

[CCoburn]

I just wanted to say something about this comment, but apparently the thread was behaving badly. So I extracted the relevant and non-malignant portion:

"Are you familiar with the Greek etymology of the word, chaos? Our English word comes from "khaos" which the Oxford dictionary defines as "the formless matter supposed to have existed before the creation of the universe" and "the first created being, from which came the primeval deities Gaia, Tartarus, Erebus, and Nyx". I suppose it's the Anglo's hatred of Greek paganism in the middle ages that brought the term "chaos" into it's negative meaning that it now has, but it's actually a very beautiful term for the origin of creation. The opposite of death, really!

Most chaos magickians I know regard the Greek etymology as their working definition when talking about "chaos" magick. So perhaps keep that in mind and rethink your position on those of us who use this term to describe our"

All I wanted to say was that this appears to align with the parameters of Negative Existence that is a part of the Qabalistic Philosophy. The "formless matter" sounds like an analog for the unmanifested energy(aur). That is manifested periodically throughout eternity as God, (or place preferred name of Deity here), or you could even consider the unmanifest as God which would in effect render it eternal, otherwise God would still be eternal in a sense, but periodically in lieu of perpetually. So it would be the "cycle" that is eternal.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Many traditions had the "primeval waters" , or many names for the same thing :

Here is another :

"The "Memphite Theology" is a term given to one of the most ancient and profound formulations of creation we possess from Egypt, its origin has been attributed to the enlightened king reputed to have reunited a divided Egypt and known to the Greeks as Menes, or to the order he gave to the new priesthood of Memphis that he set up after he moved the capital from Thinis. This remarkable cosmogony, going back as it surely does to the First Dynasty, exists for us in the restatement commanded by Shabaka about 700 BC. It names Ptah the High God. He emerges out of the primeval Waters which are no longer so inert as previously, becoming the first subjective/objective manifestation. He projects his Heart (the elder Horus, brother of all the sequential gods, including Osiris), and his Voice-Mind (Thoth).

The subjective or concealed aspect of Ptah becomes the active, 'revealed,' creative Ptah, Fire "who is upon the great (i.e., Primeval) place" (Clark, pp. 60-1) known in Egyptian symbology as Ptah-Tatenen, the "Primeval Mound" and often depicted by a staff. This mount or mound represents the first appearance of highly subtle or ethereal matter above the Waters. Ptah had an Octad or a family of eight emanations, four pairs of Neters. As Ptah he is the creator of all on earth; as Ptah-Tatenen he is "the first Earth emerging from chaos." One of the Octad is Atum, "whose divine intelligence is Horus; and whose will is . . . Thoth" (Schwaller de Lubicz, p. 337)."

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/wor ... y-imo5.htm

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Interestingly , the code I work with , in the arrangement of the
eleven dimensions of the Tree , has some things I shall share...

The top pair of symbols , equals 401...

Which in our gematria is the number for :

Water = 401

Light Body = 401

Yet , the bottom two symbols can add to 50 , and one symbol
means water , the other means light ( among many meanings for each )...

Now , the number 451 , the sum of the top and bottom pairs , equals :

451 = Abyss / Deep

In the center of the Tree , the center pair equals 86 , and can mean vibration
and oscillation...the four pairs around the central column , are elemental
pairs of symbols ( Water , Air , Fire , Earth ) , and have a value of 344...

As that equals together 430 , and that equals :

Mound = 430

Subconscious = 430

Further , all eleven pairs , equal 1495 , and :

1495 - 430 = 1065

God's Creation And Waters Of Chaos = 1065

I find that most interesting put together with the above story of Ptah , and
the mound , and the primeval waters , together with Abyss , vibration and
oscillation , and the similarity to other creation myths...

There is much more , as one of the central symbols , compares to the Obri / Hebrew
letter "Pe" , meaning mouth , and the idea of the "Word"...see link and read about
the word and Ptah...

Here is the Tree...

[CCoburn]

Thank you Shawn, that's a lot of information you provided there. I will have to read it again after I get some sleep.

[CCoburn]

I don't understand how God is unmanifest. Isn't the God of the Jews (which gives us Kabbalah) supposed to be a manifest God with a voice? How can this be God? And what happens when God does become manifest? Do we lose the chaos god? If God is nothing, then what makes it god?

Well, if you trace the cosmic evolution backwards(The Tree Of Life), you will inevitably transcend God, or at least arrive at an alternate manifestation. So you could say that God "I am", is actually God "I am becoming", so instead of God itself being the controller of the outermost cycle, it would be a part of it - the first manifestation of the unmanifest.

I believe the "voice" (Logos) is a metaphor for primordial cosmic energy. So it would be actual energy waves(transverse perhaps) as opposed to longitudinal percussive, i.e. voice.

So usually when you transcend God the ultimate question may become "what is nothing" instead. The "Ain" of the Tree. The outermost layer, but this is not a linear process. It is a position in the revolution of a cycle. Non linear, or eternal.

[Cerber]

Any consciousness exposed to "nothingness" start to split and repopulate nothing with something. One could argue that we are nothing more than manifestation of God's schizophrenia. Human mind does same thing in prolonged extreme isolation.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

However , if one takes "god" out of the picture for the moment...

( by the way , in Qabalah , there are so many words and values
for "god" both genderized and not , it is hilarious *to me*... [wink] )

The formless could be seen as black body background...

Then vibration occurs , creating waves...

This creates a field of points...

Now , all this was without boundary , then a semi - permeable boundary ,
( branes in quantum physics ) , then a more solidified boundary...

As the underlying vibration became more defined , and separated into
particular individual "sounds" , or "sonics" , the points became more
defined and bound together into "shapes" , or "geometries"...

Think cymatics , or "musical waveforms"...

By the way , I would argue god gave kabbalah...I would say kabbalah ,
gave god , as god is a concept...and kabbalah , is a template of concepts ,
and practices which stem from those understandings...

I would ask anyone who would argue against that to define god , first and
foremost , in their own words , not quotes out of some book written by
someone else...this will force the realization god *is* a concept...

Or they will not be able to explain it... [thumbup]

( saw your post Cyber , before I submitted...good point , I have considered...
I call it feedback loops , as each time consciousness self refers , a new loop is created )

[Cerber]

If you take "God" or "primordial consciousness" out of equation all those things you mentioned might not exist. If there is no you, there wouldn't be those seemingly random waves and sparks of thoughts and feelings, emotions popping out within your mind out of "nothing" no matter how hard you try to quiet your mind.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Define "god" , in specific terms , Cerber , please...

That is what I meant..."god" is a concept...

Now , are there energies as physical ( or seemingly physical , as per our sensory input and consciousness processing )
manifestations , which we might term "god" / "gods" ?

Perhaps , depending on definition...

So , for me to understand your statement , as *you* mean it , please define *your* specific concept of "god"...

And then , if you will , *why* do you believe that ?

Then , as per Spida's thread topic , how does that concept , relate to chaos ?

Thanks !

[CCoburn]

Any consciousness exposed to "nothingness" start to split and repopulate nothing with something. One could argue that we are nothing more than manifestation of God's schizophrenia. Human mind does same thing in prolonged extreme isolation.

The first thing I thought of when I read that is the 2nd stage(2nd plane) of the TOL. The splitting, or division of the One into the Supernal Male and Female Archetypes, resulting in two Sephiroth that head the two side pillars of severity(figures it's a woman), and mercy. Negative and positive, respectively.

[CCoburn]

As the underlying vibration became more defined , and separated into
particular individual "sounds" , or "sonics" , the points became more
defined and bound together into "shapes" , or "geometries"...

Think cymatics , or "musical waveforms"...

But wouldn't the waves need to be energetic transverse as opposed to longitudinal percussive, as the latter cannot propagate in a vacuum. Also I thought that when you are at Kether or beyond that you are actually outside of four dimensional spacetime as it has not been created yet. So the existence would exist within the realm of the unmanifest, outside of 4D Spacetime, similar in the way dreams exist within the Microcosm, but more well defined, persistent, and stable.

So you got different parameters for "space" as opposed to "no space",e.g. before and after The Big Bang, i.e. the initial expansion of The Primordial Point.

[Cerber]

Define "god" , in specific terms , Cerber , please...

That is what I meant..."god" is a concept...

Now , are there energies as physical ( or seemingly physical , as per our sensory input and consciousness processing )
manifestations , which we might term "god" / "gods" ?

Perhaps , depending on definition...

So , for me to understand your statement , as *you* mean it , please define *your* specific concept of "god"...

And then , if you will , *why* do you believe that ?

Then , as per Spida's thread topic , how does that concept , relate to chaos ?

Thanks !

That depends on context and scale. In this context by "God" I mean primordial consciousness of which everything came to be. By everything I mean our universe in all of its dimensions, realms and planes. Why do I believe it? Because it makes sense to me

[chowderpope]

I would agree. That makes sense to me as well.

[CCoburn]

Primordial Consciousness would be a zero dimensional point so it would exist out side of 4D Spacetime. You can learn some things about it by extrapolating from It's Microcosmic counterpart given the fractal nature of the Universe. Or even the Hermetic Axiom "As above so below", or "As within so without" references to Micro and Macrocosm.

You can form analogies between the two, e.g. Expansion of inner consciousness, and outer - Primordial Point. Also and I know I've said this already. The creation of 4D spacetime is illusory yet is not unstable - created by expanding consciousness. In the microcosmic aspect illusory space is created as a medium to act out our dreams.

[chowderpope]

What you're saying is interesting but going over my head. You seem to be a mathematical, scientific thinker and I learn much better through poetry and parable.

[Cerber]

you guys are talking about a primordial consciousness I was wondering what this consciousness is aware of and if it wants anything, like maybe for me to go to communion and confession? whats it all about anyway.......... and to the math guy, is there a God?

We'll take your self for example, you are made of billions of individuals, billions of cells, they are all very different complex organisms in it self. They have their lives, they purpose in the greater "self", now how much you are aware of your self as a community of billions of individuals and each single cell than defines you, and how much each cell is aware of you, the higher, greater "self"? And do you actually need that deep detailed awareness of your self to function?

[chowderpope]

you guys are talking about a primordial consciousness I was wondering what this consciousness is aware of and if it wants anything, like maybe for me to go to communion and confession? whats it all about anyway.......... and to the math guy, is there a God?

I would agree with Cerber's example. I would say that communion, confession, prayer, ritual, evocation, offerings, meditation, mantra, different yogic practices, etc. etc. are all techniques which can be used to bring your consciousness closer to the supreme consciousness, which itself is impersonal, so I would say it doesn't have a preference for how you behave.

[CCoburn]

@ShawnBlackwolf

Of course the Eleven Dimensional M-Theory which you talk about. Does change things a bit, since instead of "Nothing" existing outside of the Universe. You would have the existence of the Bulk(M-Theory term)of the Multiverse. Of which it's existence could also be dependent and exist as a manifestation of consciousness. It would be a fractal framework extending indefinitely into Macro infinity, or as stated the infinite bulk of the multiverse.

In any event the "real" and fundamental substance of existence would be consciousness, a form of energy. All else would be derived from that.

[Cerber]

I would agree with Cerber's example. I would say that communion, confession, prayer, ritual, evocation, offerings, meditation, mantra, different yogic practices, etc. etc. are all techniques which can be used to bring your consciousness closer to the supreme consciousness, which itself is impersonal, so I would say it doesn't have a preference for how you behave.

I don't think that's entirely correct. I personally have preference how my cells behave, I prefer they stick to their intended purpose, their original programming and don't go rogue, turning in to cancer and trying to kill me unintentionally

[chowderpope]

So far since I've been here it sounds like basically that there is no need to study occult for morality sake, and that to be a Saint is available to anyone with consciousness so... what's the point of studying it? If we are all basically Saints anyway, and there is no right or wrong..................

I think you're misunderstanding a lot of the things we're discussing, at a fundamental level. The conclusions you have drawn are nonsensical. Maybe the occult isn't for you after all.

[Cerber]

I think you're misunderstanding a lot of the things we're discussing, at a fundamental level. The conclusions you have drawn are nonsensical. Maybe the occult isn't for you after all.

Did anyone spit in to your eyes something like that when you were starting?

[chowderpope]

I think you're misunderstanding a lot of the things we're discussing, at a fundamental level. The conclusions you have drawn are nonsensical. Maybe the occult isn't for you after all.

Did anyone spit in to your eyes something like that when you were starting?

Nope, and probably because I didn't bumble around stepping on toes when I started. I show respect to those who are willing to share their knowledge with me.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I have to say , there is something I felt , when I saw a name , and a few posts...

I am not saying there is , or is not misunderstanding at a fundamental level...

But I do smell someone on the hunt having come here to fish bait , with an
underlying Christian agenda...not that there is anything wrong if someone
chooses Christianity as a path to what might or might not be divinity... [wink]

Yet , if one comes to an occult site to demand under their surface asking , for
proof of why others believe what they do , with an underlying agenda to trap
them , or undermine ideas , concepts , or words in a passive - aggressive
manner , that I think would be disingenuous at the least , as their tradition
would be , and is , based on faith...

To seek out , on a hunt , and then criticize those one was inquiring from , would
seem dishonest , and this fox , or wolf , shall not be caught in that manipulative
attempt , nor would I if it were happening there was one hunting for prey...

As this is just me thinking hypothetically , out loud , in cyberspace , of course... [thumbup]

@Spida...I shall get back to you , on topic , sometime for me , tomorrow...

This site ate another of my responses to your reply to me , about eight hours ago...

I gave up for awhile , until I saw this exchange , and it triggered hypothetical thoughts... [wink] ... [sarcasm]

[chowderpope]

I think you're right, man. Unfortunately for them, they weren't sharp enough to understand what I said, let alone refute it.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Or perhaps they were a sharp enough tool , to pierce the veil ,
yet the refutability factor was caught at zero point , unmanifest ,
in the formless...

Yet to me , if that is the case , what does that formless matter ?

Ah , the turn of the phrase , or is that the "taming of the screw" ?

Ah , 'tis but Ancient Mirthology and Magic !

[chowderpope]

Now I can just see them presenting a 2-page report (24 pt. font, comic sans) to their Sunday School congregation tomorrow about how the occultists don't know anything. Yucky.