What makes Practicioners believe in limitations

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aratliff1207
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What makes Practicioners believe in limitations

Post by aratliff1207 »

I have been researching across this forum and other places as well and one thing that has been just bothering me to be frank is that on certain subjects such as when people, mainly people who are very green to practicing ask questions about becoming a vampire, or obtaining some sort of supernatural power IE: heightened senses, strength etc. or Immortality. A lot of very experienced ( so they appear by how they talk) just right it off as fantasy, they use the word limitations, or that we have a vail over us like a filter that only allows us to do so much. People speak about summoning a demon that is immortal yet has no one ever thought to ask how to achieve it themselves? People speak of how powerful different deities are, yet has no one been able to get to the bottom of how to acquire some sort of power beyond of what they have been told is "Within" their limitations? Practitioners far and wide all day will tell you to have faith and believe in yourself and that anything is possible yet turn around and say not everything is possible? My question is WHY? If you are able to do so many things that is by most, not believed in or thought to be lunatic what makes it so hard to achieve what we are told is not possible. At one time the things that are done in the Occult were most likely not thought of as things that were possible, yet look at what happened. They persevered! How is it that so many people can believe in such dark arts to where you can summon up what some call the devil or something worse yet no one seems to believe it is possible to become immortal in a physical sense or to become a vampire etc. That does not make any sense to me in the slightest. By saying all of this I am not in any way trying to bring disrespect to anyone's belief of anything, but I know my goals, I know what I want as well as I Know I can achieve them no matter the cost. But from how I have read so many people of similar beliefs think it appears as if a large number of people need an awakening of the mind. I look for anyone who has some knowledge they can part with so that maybe I can become enlightened as to why people are thinking this way etc.

Thank you in advance for reading this and I wish you all a Blessed day and life.

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Occultess
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Re: What makes Practicioners believe in limitations

Post by Occultess »

I agree with you. If you look at some of the old stories (say ancient egyptian) if they weren't just huge exaggerations, those people could do some amazing stuff! I think sometimes the limitations come from

1) no longer living in a magical world (where it's out in the open and not unusual)

2) the Western traditions having centuries worth of persecutions killing some and driving others underground

I think we lost connection with our true power. In some ways we're starting over again, and we simply forgot what is possible.
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Cybernetic_Jazz
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Re: What makes Practicioners believe in limitations

Post by Cybernetic_Jazz »

Studying across a broad swath of material, staying in touch with a lot of sharp people, and having experienced a lot myself albeit still not seeing 1:1 relationship of that to ritual work I might put it the following way.

If as a kid you see adult basketball players on TV doing things that you think are amazing. You note their skill sets, their prestige, and you decide that when you grow up you too want to be in the NBA. You practice like mad. True, you absolutely do get better - there's no denying that a previously unpracticed or untrained skill set improves. At the same time there are a lot of things about your own body, about the process, and yes, about wide variances in how much different people can improve, and you may be one of the relatively small few who finds out that they have it in them to be the next Lebron James or Kobe Bryant. What makes them stars is just how rare their abilities are though and for the overwhelming majority of people their peak performance age comes and goes without them either ever reaching the caliber they'd need to be in the NBA or being so close to the edge but not impressively, or not finding the opportunity, that it doesn't happen for other reasons.

I think a lot of practitioners find out that the idea that the universe is infinitely malleable to thought is a bit of a new age scam. You don't just find out that there are certain past experiences that you can't erase the impact of, or certain things about the way you balance energy within yourself that are fixed, but just like the person who wishes they could work three jobs and 90 hours per week your mind and body have limits. You also discover that motivation is something like a currency, that if you burn through it too fast you can go into the red and loose steam, if you do too little you'll be demotivated as well, and there's a sweet spot for keeping motivation strong but it may very well not be a place that moves you nearly as fast as you'd want. A lot of this work really seems to be across lifetimes, which really can piss someone off who says reads for years, is all charged up to take a run at Tiphareth or even Binah, and then they find out that whatever's in them that needs to be transmuted will take another 30 years even to just get them across the path of Tau to Yesod - and you simply don't know these things about yourself until you go in and see either how fast or how slow your progress comes. The really disillusioning thing is at that rate, ie. if it's moving horribly slow, you can easily spend a while thinking 'Damn, this is just another religion! I feel like a f---ing idiot now who has nothing worth saying to anyone because I have no results to show!'. It's better just to consider that to keep plugging away at it, as you can, is paramount to your future - that you are eternal and that you will benefit in your next life significantly from what you do today.

A lot of this is similar though to the party trick where a guy is told to stand against a wall with his legs straight, bend over with his back straight, and he can't not because the chair is any heavier but because he has no leverage to do so. It's frustrating but again, just like the world isn't blanketed in NBA superheroes the world isn't blanketed in Ipsissimi. Similarly it gets disheartening even go to back and read about the greats of history, whether Plotinus, Trithemeus, Agrippa, Franz Bardon, Crowley, etc. just because you can ask yourself - with pretty much any of them (especially Bardon with how the back half of his life went) where their faith the size of a mustard seed to verbally command mountains to get up and move went. Even the greats had rather modest results. When all of that gets tabulated you end up realizing that yes - this stuff is real and no, it's nowhere close to infinitely fungible. Really for a lot of people it's so infungible and subtle in its effects that about all they can think of that's worth doing is personal/internal alchemy because it's the only approach that seems like it would reinvest in themselves and possibly give some accelerative boost.

That said I won't tell you that you're not the next Lebron or Kobe, you very well might be, just that lots of people will find out relatively early on the path that they're not.
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aratliff1207
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Re: What makes Practicioners believe in limitations

Post by aratliff1207 »

Thank you both for your thoughts. I will do some thinking on the responses and reply within the following days.

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Re: What makes Practicioners believe in limitations

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aratliff1207 wrote:Practitioners far and wide all day will tell you to have faith and believe in yourself and that anything is possible yet turn around and say not everything is possible?
Ah, the Law of Attraction [lol] . Stupid New Age ideology that is part and parcel of what is basically watered down truths about reality. Humankind just loves to feel special about themselves. We are made in God's image according to the Bible and the Quran states that human beings are Allah's viceregent on Earth. They do so by believing that everything is possible for themselves. The beings of light and love stroking our ego with statements like "You are loved", "You have a mission on Earth as healers, lightworkers, etc." In the process, they misdirect us from the truth.

Why is it not possible to achieve everything with magic? I have this question running in my head since I stepped foot in the occult practices. I have a theory. The world we live in is made up of dense vibrations, which makes it harder to manifest our desires. In the astral realm one can almost create anything, or so I have heard. I think that this is due to the fact that the latter has lighter vibration. Compare the vibrations/energy of our dimension as a block of ice and that of the other "higher realms" as fluid water.

The powers that be have put us in a physical body for certain purpose. And it is neither due to our fault nor because they want our good. I won't go into further details. Just know that we, our abilities, karma, reincarnation and many other things are messed up in this world. The only way you can enjoy immortality is by leaving this body. However, certain conditions have been put in the matrix that has snatched away our divine potential.
In my sword I trust.

- Ensiferum

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Re: What makes Practicioners believe in limitations

Post by Cybernetic_Jazz »

Napoli wrote: Why is it not possible to achieve everything with magic? I have this question running in my head since I stepped foot in the occult practices. I have a theory. The world we live in is made up of dense vibrations, which makes it harder to manifest our desires. In the astral realm one can almost create anything, or so I have heard. I think that this is due to the fact that the latter has lighter vibration. Compare the vibrations/energy of our dimension as a block of ice and that of the other "higher realms" as fluid water.
I'd add - I've sort of taken a dive back into studying NDE's and there's a somewhat dark message sort of tucked away in the gears of what a lot of these people come back with. The way I'd paraphrase it would be like this - Atman/Yechidah knows exactly what It's doing with us and has us exactly where we're at for It's own reasons. In theory a person could be a failure by society's standards, had all their efforts go to naught, and be absolutely brutal on themselves for the way their seeming bad luck made them look to others, fearful that their lives might be wasting away beneath them, and all along they're exactly where 'God' wants them and are fulfilling Its plan for them perfectly or near perfectly. If and when it's like that a person has to completely rearrange their priorities and turn the adjustment that their elders gave them as children (ie. succeed or bust) inside out to meet that new incoming data. The alternative is to go mad.

That thought and similar ones have inspired in me a kind of mystic/magical existentialism in that cultures seem to rise and fall right back into the ground, people are largely incorrigible and will likely never have truth as a first priority or even a high priority for that matter, the tale of human salvation through technological progress seems largely mythologized and takes on a Christian heresy flavor almost akin to Marxism, human beings with increasing technological leverage and almost the same bestial tendencies as they had as hunter/gatherers are likely to wipe us all out, and in a lot of ways I find myself right there with people like John Gray (Straw Dogs, Soul of the Marionette, etc.) in my sense that we're searching for what we'd identify as positive purpose, with our sense of near-infinite responsibility for our own success and failure (and responsibility to torment ourselves if we come up short) and yet everything that matters to us in this life could very well be utterly orthogonal to the goals of Atman or in another way of putting it orthogonal to what the universe is doing, and that it's a futile task in that if it is measured against a plan that's not calibrated to or built around our happiness. Truthfully I don't know if there's any hard proof that Atman would have a problem with the west catastrophically collapsing and having either the extinction or near extinction of the human race (especially if nuclear power plants get neglected in the fray). That makes the business of looking forward to the future, at least right now, rather glum.

In a lot of ways life, human genetics, evolution, all of it's quite cold. I think that's the background environment in which we're trying to better ourselves and from that standpoint it's not surprising maybe that if a spell, a ceremonial working, or some other thing has us moving too ambitiously for the universe's place for us we might find ourselves treading water as well.
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Re: What makes Practicioners believe in limitations

Post by Omnicentrik »

I think its a practical matter. Experience teaches to work within limitations. The creative occultist uses those to define their practice and make it more tangible, as opposed to wasting time and energy on every variation of "what might be". Nothing is impossible, but probability varies. What newbies, and the idealistic theme of mixing fantasy with realistic practice- each has its place, fail to realize is that a single esoteric path requires years of dedication if you want to get results that you can look back upon as successful rather than some incling of "maybe".

On the other hand, you make little progress if you don't dare get out of the box of what others call "realistic". But the wise (in my view) take calculated risks that assess what is the best use of their time and energy. On the other hand, if you think a year or two of intro studies is going to open up the "great beyond", I would say...go for it. Look how popular occultism is today. Not as it was. Look at the closed study groups that specialize in either purist and scholarship based magic as opposed to Hollywood based fantasy. The latter isn't even true the the myths that it allegedly draws upon.

So limits are good, and idealism and inspiration is great. What occultists learn is how to be creative with those. You want to spend time trying to walk through walls? Good luck. But I would rather start with possibilities that have precedence and take it from there, without allowing those to impose artificial boundaries. Certainly going for broke is a risk, but you are less likely to be disappointed if you research beyond the marketed collectivist trendiness, movies, games and other such media that are very rarely created by those in the know.

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