Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

Exploring the Philosophical side of the Occult.

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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

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Kath wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:34 pm
Cybernetic_Jazz wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:56 am I was just going through my emails tripping balls and saw this. What's good. :)
What's good?
uhhhhhh, wonder, mirth, and logos [yay]

I was just curious if you were still around, and if you had any further thoughts on any of this thread :)
I guess the only thoughts I'd add:

Almost all internal visions and experiences are dialogs between your more immediate / functional self and part of your wiring that carries all of your life's experience and knowledge. A lot of times the later has dialogues with the former to reassert equilibrium. I think I mentioned this toward the beginning but - a lot of times if visions invade your waking life something's going horribly wrong, as Jung experienced it, and the parts of your own mind that provide ballast or counterweight to your functional self are fighting so hard to keep things in balance that they break the surface of waking consciousness.

While there does seem to be considerable evidence of continuation of life and reincarnation, as well as these days increased discussion of djinn (ie. UAV's and their contact with military arrays and instruments), for most people there's almost an unfathomable gulf between access to those elements and access to internal dialog. I find myself in that latter category, fighting for my life against muggles (which I'll probably have to do until I'm in a casket) might be helping to deaden my capacity to do anything else but I have to increasingly accept that the handful of really unexplainable experiences I've already had in my life are probably it.

The paradox of the thread is the one of harsh Darwinian competition and nature red in tooth and nail (as well as society and economics red in tooth and nail) on one side, the blissful solipsism of the life force coming up through us on the other, and just how immensely divergent these two experiences are. I'd still say that the 'Do The Evolution' video captured that dichotomy excellently.


Also from some of what I said above, I have no clue what I'll be doing with this whole area of interest going forward. To the best I can tell - if it doesn't work for me I probably need to shelve it, sort out my survival needs (or rather keep doing that), and if there's a time and place in my life where I can come back to the spiritual or magical path I'll do it, just that for now really all I have contact with is psychology / neurology and I don't feel like that's a productive place to engage any of these phenomena from.
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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

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Oh, as a side note - I've really gotten big on crypto investing in the past six months. If anyone wants to talk coins and pattern-watching let me know!
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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

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Cybernetic_Jazz wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:53 pm ...I have to increasingly accept that the handful of really unexplainable experiences I've already had in my life are probably it. ...
That's an interesting thought.

I can think of more dramatic examples of unexplainable experiences which exist in the past, as a sort of "one and done" event in time. I definitely do appreciate that uh... perspective, or characterization of certain experiences. I can identify.

I think, that where I have crossed the Rubicon, between observation of phenomena, and occult as a practice... is in striving to "create" unexplainable phenomena to observe.

In this, I think that a certain psychical (not a typo) element to attempting to approach the problem of how to go about it. And a significant swath of possible unexplainable phenomena require a degree of sensitivity and intuitive leaps, in order to experience.

I would tend to think that the reasons for many people to approach the occult or occult practice, have little to do with the purest interest in the substance of the topic. People want certain results, or to carry on a certain tradition, or to correct something they dislike about the nature of reality, or to feel empowered, etc. And all of those things are understandable. But I wonder how limiting such frames of mind might be, when attempting to explore, intuitively, methods of manifesting unexplainable phenomena.

For love of the exploratory quasi-science of it, the wonder of discovery & exploration, it's a ceaselessly rewarding thing.

I would not even look into it, but for experiences of unexplainable phenomena, and the burning curiosity it inspires.
And I think I would not have 'stayed' into it, but for some degree of success in intuiting approaches to crafting unexplainable phenomena.

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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

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A constant slurry of violence, narcissism, and domination is really doing a lot of damage to my curiosity. Getting screwed by employers, getting treated like a kid by other adults for where I'm at in life, and knowing that I'd have to be a much more violent, course, dumb, and probably less-competent person to fix that.

It's pretty much brain damage as a way of life.

The trouble there, and kind of in line with some of the outlooks on the occult you mentioned, if there are no competencies that can solve these problems and these problems are screaming as loudly as they are in my life - I really have to put my attention into either coarsening, making a lot more money, or both, and anything that doesn't help me do one, the other, or both needs to be tucked away in a box until that gets sorted out.

I don't feel comfortable asking the cosmos for money, I'd rather win the zero-sum games on my own and know that I have the grit to keep the victories otherwise it's a hard thing to maintain. It's the coarsening I'm trying to work my way around, the whole needing to become a worse person than I came into this world as in order to survive - I really just wanna fuck the people up who are putting that ultimatum to me and again, that's another skillset that would be better to build on my own.
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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

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Living in a wrong place, with wrong people and wrong work is a dead end spiritually.

Sometimes it is better to move away and start again

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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

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Cybernetic_Jazz wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:27 pm A constant slurry of violence, narcissism, and domination is really doing a lot of damage to my curiosity. Getting screwed by employers, getting treated like a kid by other adults for where I'm at in life, and knowing that I'd have to be a much more violent, course, dumb, and probably less-competent person to fix that.

It's pretty much brain damage as a way of life.

The trouble there, and kind of in line with some of the outlooks on the occult you mentioned, if there are no competencies that can solve these problems and these problems are screaming as loudly as they are in my life - I really have to put my attention into either coarsening, making a lot more money, or both, and anything that doesn't help me do one, the other, or both needs to be tucked away in a box until that gets sorted out.

I don't feel comfortable asking the cosmos for money, I'd rather win the zero-sum games on my own and know that I have the grit to keep the victories otherwise it's a hard thing to maintain. It's the coarsening I'm trying to work my way around, the whole needing to become a worse person than I came into this world as in order to survive - I really just wanna fuck the people up who are putting that ultimatum to me and again, that's another skillset that would be better to build on my own.
It's hard to say what particular bit of knowledge will make itself crucial to know, as situations unfold.

But yeah, if you need to focus on topics which are most probable to be beneficial, and right now that doesn't include the occult, I can get that.

Although personally, I find it had to imagine a situation where skill and knowledge of inter-mind extra-natural forces, subtexts, etc. could 'not' be useful. At least in any situation which relates to existing within society. I don't draw any concrete line between say knowing how to communicate with others using the local language, and knowing how we all really communicate in a more 'complete' and subtle framework. Knowing and having agency with all of the layers of how we co-cogitate when sentient minds interact, is just nearly continuously applicable. Unless i'm in a forest alone or something, far away from other humans or higher functioning animals. But most of the problems of life, involve coexistence with the other bipeds.

Remember that the aspersions of others, spoken or unspoken, need not trigger a conditioned reflex within yourself. It doesn't so much matter whether you accept or deny the aspersions of others, but how, and why, you choose your reaction, or non reaction. Whether you react with "yeah, I suck", or "i need to do better", or "how about you go fuck yourself", or just ignore them... what carries the most weight is the process by which you arrive at it. They offer you a cup full of a framing of reality full of their biases, what is greatness, is not having a kneejerk reaction, but deciding, or rather discerning, a response, or non-response, which embodies your true will. With enough perfection of self awareness, a pauper can make a king seem tiny.

It's a little bit like "speaking with the power of the holy spirit" in protestant churches. Although that's a crude fascimile of a honed will, sense of self, and weight of presence. The genuine article is considerably more potent, and a lot less dependent on annunciation & body language.

violence? that doesn't sound good.
and kinda sets the imagination to exotic interpretations :P

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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

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Kath wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 2:21 pm Although personally, I find it had to imagine a situation where skill and knowledge of inter-mind extra-natural forces, subtexts, etc. could 'not' be useful. At least in any situation which relates to existing within society. I don't draw any concrete line between say knowing how to communicate with others using the local language, and knowing how we all really communicate in a more 'complete' and subtle framework. Knowing and having agency with all of the layers of how we co-cogitate when sentient minds interact, is just nearly continuously applicable. Unless i'm in a forest alone or something, far away from other humans or higher functioning animals. But most of the problems of life, involve coexistence with the other bipeds.
To actually use occultism, or at least going beyond probing my own construction with maybes, isn't something I really have access to. I rarely ever felt like working with an entity was anything other than pulling in an imaginary friend or another part of my neural structure willing to stand in as an other. Further looking into people's research of DMT, dreams, etc. has even further made me doubt even strong second-person influence or cajoling as anything other than my own mind trying to communicate with me. This is where I'd have no clue how to apply force or any outside world problem-solving, only inner-world because it's the only part of this that I can have faith works.
Kath wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 2:21 pmRemember that the aspersions of others, spoken or unspoken, need not trigger a conditioned reflex within yourself. It doesn't so much matter whether you accept or deny the aspersions of others, but how, and why, you choose your reaction, or non reaction. Whether you react with "yeah, I suck", or "i need to do better", or "how about you go fuck yourself", or just ignore them... what carries the most weight is the process by which you arrive at it. They offer you a cup full of a framing of reality full of their biases, what is greatness, is not having a kneejerk reaction, but deciding, or rather discerning, a response, or non-response, which embodies your true will. With enough perfection of self awareness, a pauper can make a king seem tiny.

It's a little bit like "speaking with the power of the holy spirit" in protestant churches. Although that's a crude fascimile of a honed will, sense of self, and weight of presence. The genuine article is considerably more potent, and a lot less dependent on annunciation & body language.
The way I'd phrase my understanding of what you're saying above is understanding the problem from first principals and relating to it from first principals.

I have pieces and parts of that. On one level I have to work to live. On another level, I know that people's aspersions are primarily weaponized for selfish ends - ie. they don't want to fix a perceived problem or chastise someone whose not pulling their weight in life, it's more like they're getting their rocks off looking down on and abusing anyone they possibly can as a means of reinforcing their feeling that they're successful social climbers. I see these people as very little more than monkeys with UN rights, their obstinance is 1000x as strong because they don't bother with sanity or reason. While insanity, obstinance, and being 100000% sure that you're right about something you're dead wrong about is a perverse form of power the price of it is... well... being insane and wrong, and it's a form of power that doesn't seem to come without real derangement.

The closest thing I can do is club myself over the head with truth all day long, not just including the Machiavellianism of the world I live in but also some of the really frightening stuff that Nate Hagens is talking about on his channel, like his recent discussion of metal and mineral resource limits
(with Simon Michaux) and how we're set up to have all of this that we have now fall apart within the next decade - long before global warming gets us. These are the people who, while the world starts crashing around them, will either be beating their faces into the wall for status-quo assertion or figuring out whose lower in social pecking order so they can mug them and take their stuff. TBH - letting the human race buttfuck itself out of existence before it ever leaves this planet might be a good idea. We don't get a handle on or even grapple with psychopathy, rather we worship it as the most holy and sacred thing we can imagine. Sadly there are a lot of individual good people mixed in with this species as well who aren't likely to have an enjoyable time over the remainder of this century as the crazies start killing everything and each other.

To that last point that's where my mind shifts to violence. If my martial arts instructor is leaving the area now and I don't want coming worsening of the human condition to catch me off guard I'll probably need to find myself at the gun range more, spending time on a lot of the skillsets needed for that situation. Odds are, almost 100%, being different in any way shape or form - I'll get murdered before I have a chance to utilize any of it, but I still want to at least do something to know that I'm facing it rather than have it all catch me unprepared.
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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

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Cybernetic_Jazz wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:54 pm... really frightening stuff that Nate Hagens is talking about on his channel, like his recent discussion of metal and mineral resource limits ..
Perhaps you are too young to recall the Peak Oil fright - now long gone

Better to read the works of Thomas Gold to learn how this planet is currently depositing vast quantities of hydrocarbons, metals and fresh water in the one process.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/03879 ... bl_vppi_i1

https://www.livescience.com/65779-giant ... coast.html

So what intelligences wish to depress and frighten Earth humans? Why would they want that?

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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

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Cybernetic_Jazz wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:54 pm
Kath wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 2:21 pm Although personally, I find it had to imagine a situation where skill and knowledge of inter-mind extra-natural forces, subtexts, etc. could 'not' be useful. At least in any situation which relates to existing within society. I don't draw any concrete line between say knowing how to communicate with others using the local language, and knowing how we all really communicate in a more 'complete' and subtle framework. Knowing and having agency with all of the layers of how we co-cogitate when sentient minds interact, is just nearly continuously applicable. Unless i'm in a forest alone or something, far away from other humans or higher functioning animals. But most of the problems of life, involve coexistence with the other bipeds.
To actually use occultism, or at least going beyond probing my own construction with maybes, isn't something I really have access to. I rarely ever felt like working with an entity was anything other than pulling in an imaginary friend or another part of my neural structure willing to stand in as an other. Further looking into people's research of DMT, dreams, etc. has even further made me doubt even strong second-person influence or cajoling as anything other than my own mind trying to communicate with me. This is where I'd have no clue how to apply force or any outside world problem-solving, only inner-world because it's the only part of this that I can have faith works.
The esoteria being esoteric.
I um... hmmm. I guess I create models, which strictly factual or not, embody meaningful relationships with observable principals in reality. If a concept can predict an outcome, or trigger an effect, it's a sort of science, even if it's modeled in a way which isn't literally true. It can be a sort of algebra of representative placeholders for unknown factors. I use multiple models which aren't really correlated to or coherent with each other. So long as they hold applicable principals which have utility. Heh, I guess theoretical physics faces the same problem with relativity & quantum mechanics.

Anyway, the thing is, that by using 'application' as a litmus test for validity (proof of concept), I guess my data pool leans towards being more applicable.

But more than that I think I just like to get very uh... "close to the metal" in computer programming terms. Not so much wanting an ap for XYZ, but rather to understand how such an ap would work in it's most fundamental aspects. A lot of what I see in esoteria is very uh "constructed", and I like do deconstruct and understand the guts of it.

Like in summoning, say there's a ritual meant to contact a particular entity or egregore or engram. I just want to lift up the floor under the circle & symbols, and say "where do these all these wires go? what do they plug into? what flows in them? what is the quintessence of this entity? and what is the underlying geometry of that? and the underlying plumbing of that geometry? and the underlying physics of that plumbing? etc". And then drag all that I've learned back into a different model which eschews ritual formatting. Apply the principals of "focus as location" ..in a quasi-awareness of omnipresent astral potential (sounds like jibberish, but I spent a bit of time on the verbiage there) to just directly contact said entity as a simplistic act of will henceforth.

I make it sound very uh.. detail focused, and kinda book-ish in nature, but perhaps counter-intuitively, I actually go about it in a rather sorceric, artsy kind of way. Let the math generate art, and dually appreciate it as math and art, and not shy away from following intuitive instinct, understanding intuition as a sort of culmination of myriad logics & perceptions which may extend beyond conscious understanding. or perhaps just making room for the potential for having cognition which is larger in scale & scope than I know how to refine into a lucid & totally self aware nexus. very left-right brain lateral.

I really feel like I'm using using mystic "technobabble". But I'm grasping at words to inform ideas, I "think" they're the right words (mostly, kinda). But it sure looks like word salad, sorry :)

Um, also a decent swath of my areas of interest have been focused on fields of esoteria which have practical application. And given that although I study esoteria in 'any' format, I lean heavily into a soceric style for applying will, it's not too hard to connect knowledge, will, & action, 'on the fly' in a real life situation.

I don't "see" energy. Not at all. Many on the more artsy side of esoteria claim they do. I don't. But I perceive it, in a manner which I don't think entirely correlates to any of the 5 primary physical senses. Maybe kinda like the kinesthetic sensation of a phantom limb, but extending beyond the self. If I knew exactly what the nuts & bolts of this perception is, I'd be better able to describe it perhaps. I can model it, in many different ways. And I know many would prosthelytize their model as their 'uncovered truth', but i refrain from that. I like to stay close to the metal and avoid getting too turned around by abstractions of what's really going on.

So when I interact with someone, ok, to be honest much of the time I'm being oblivious :P But when I'm not being oblivious, there are layers to it. Sure there's words, inflection, tone, body language, etc. But more layers than that. Flows and interactions and effects which mingle psychology and spirituality. Where esoteric energies and biological processes intersect and interplay. People telegraphing sensations of what they feel and think. Or perhaps perceptions of the precursors of their thought and feelings coalescing from the less concrete end of what they are made of, as a sentient being. "Horse whisperer" type territory, but FAR from limited to horses. Rather it's much more intricate and interesting the more cognitively developed the other being is. There is a 3-D chess to the interaction of sentient beings.

I find I sometimes laugh loudly and disproportionately to a joke. Just because the vast majority of the time I preconsciously (or even consciously) expect the punchline. But once in a while I'm caught completely off guard, and I am just so tickled by the unexpected punchline that I react more strongly than the humor itself really warrants.

Um, but yeah so, uh, this is exploitable. The machiavellian potential is 'vast'. I should point out that I don't think it's healthy to go around looking to leverage understandings of the 3-D chess aspects of co-cogitation, all the time. And it is a sort of co-cogitation. Neither being really functioning as an isolated process. I'm very cognitive in nature, in many ways I 'am' my cognition, and I tend to regard the cognition of others as having a sort of sacrosanct quality. Exercising some skill in interacting with others make sense, but overt bullying of the natural flow of free will in others is intentionally harmful to the substance of them.

So like, people who are uh, "intentionally difficult", like an obnoxious boss who's more interested in their delusions of grandeur and stepping on other people than they are in being a team leader... I mean, my normal state is to have my hair up in a tight bun so I don't bruise the free will of others. But it's not as though I "can't" let my hair down. And if i were to, it wouldn't 'look' like something occult per se. I'm more into the fundamental principals and underlying wiring, rather than the traditional trappings. Though there would be a very perceptible vibe which some may or may not perceive. It would probably register as just a very sudden and abrupt increase in a sensation of 'personal presence'. Although it doesn't have to be 'all of a sudden', there can be subtle degrees of letting one's hair down. The bare minimum of applied force is probably preferable.

At the most crude and simplistic level though, the most fundamental aspect is just being able to "non-react". Think of it like side-stepping a blow. Or uh, you're into martial arts, think of it like utilizing the kinetic energy of an attack, rather than lashing out in return. There's a difference between physically not reacting and 'internally' not reacting though. And I'm speaking about the latter. If you only physically non-react, it just looks like you're taking a beating. But if you internally non-react, it will actually be very evident to all present that the verbal blows just aren't landing. Like you have a hand outstretched, and a reach advantage, and are just holding your attacker back so their blows flair pointlessly in the air. That stands a decent chance of inspiring the other to just strike harder. But it's the starting point for being in full control of yourself. It's the footing, the control over your center of gravity, the leverage. very kung fu. And rather pointedly I'm not talking about a defiant attitude (though that has it's place), I'm talking about a sort of calm, where you are planted and stable and unswayed. It may sound like turning the other cheek, but it's quite different. More like they are nipping at the ankles of a giant who barely takes notice.

I would say it's not like shielding vs. the energy at play, more like making oneself transparent to it, so that it passes through without impact. Shielding establishes a sort of contest of wills in direct conflict. More akin to defiance or resilience or just being a hard nut to crack. That's not really going fully 3-D chess with it. The vibe you're going for is that they are swinging at nothing at all, and no amount of force could ever change the result.

At that point, your experience of co-cogitating with the other person is very lopsided. You control what inputs from the other do to you, but they do not control what inputs from yourself do. If you want to be nice, you can offer a friendly gesture the moment they sense their powerlessness. An out, a face saving escape.

In a book "games people play", it's outlined how people operate in roles, depending on whether they're embodying their inner id, ego, or superego. The book is based on freudian psychology, not my favorite really, but it outlines an important insight. In the book it equates these to an inner child, adult, and parent. The adult is mature, the parent is kinda dominating and controlling, and the child is petulant and impulsive. What's interesting is that if you engage with another person in any of these 3 frames of mind, you will inspire the counterpart. If you engage as the parent, they will slip into their child frame of mind. If you engage as the child, they will slip into their parent frame of mind. If you engage as the adult, you will drag them into their adult frame of mind. It's "extremely" reciprocal. Predator/prey mechanics also echo this pattern. Among other sets of reciprocal frames of mind.

With your footing of self awareness, and denial of external swaying, you are in a position to re-design what reciprocal frame of mind is at play. If you're feeling particularly pleasant (and pleasantness tends to beget pleasantness) you could simply let them rail, probably ramping up to levels which are obviously irrational because it doesn't seem to be effecting you, and then when they tire out just say "are you ok?" with genuine interest in their well being. There are people though who don't really speak the language of pleasantness. There's a lot of ways you can take it, dealer's choice.

All of which only really fundamentally requires skill with making oneself centered in the midst of chaos. Very rudimentary stuff. Not super heavy on the occult skills or understanding really, but a bit demanding of one's self awareness. Knowledge of martial arts would be a good segue for understanding it. Kind of a neijia thing in many ways. There's a lot of headroom for far more intricate & arcane skill development beyond just this, but it's shockingly potent even at the fundamental level.

I might be making it sound more simple than it is though. I think back to having pretty significant social anxiety for the first couple decades of my life. And being able to just shrug off external etheric flows is perhaps not a 'beginner thing'. But perhaps it's only as difficult as your mind makes it..
Cybernetic_Jazz wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:54 pm
Kath wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 2:21 pmRemember that the aspersions of others, spoken or unspoken, need not trigger a conditioned reflex within yourself. It doesn't so much matter whether you accept or deny the aspersions of others, but how, and why, you choose your reaction, or non reaction. Whether you react with "yeah, I suck", or "i need to do better", or "how about you go fuck yourself", or just ignore them... what carries the most weight is the process by which you arrive at it. They offer you a cup full of a framing of reality full of their biases, what is greatness, is not having a kneejerk reaction, but deciding, or rather discerning, a response, or non-response, which embodies your true will. With enough perfection of self awareness, a pauper can make a king seem tiny.

It's a little bit like "speaking with the power of the holy spirit" in protestant churches. Although that's a crude fascimile of a honed will, sense of self, and weight of presence. The genuine article is considerably more potent, and a lot less dependent on annunciation & body language.
The way I'd phrase my understanding of what you're saying above is understanding the problem from first principals and relating to it from first principals.

I have pieces and parts of that. On one level I have to work to live. On another level, I know that people's aspersions are primarily weaponized for selfish ends - ie. they don't want to fix a perceived problem or chastise someone whose not pulling their weight in life, it's more like they're getting their rocks off looking down on and abusing anyone they possibly can as a means of reinforcing their feeling that they're successful social climbers. I see these people as very little more than monkeys with UN rights, their obstinance is 1000x as strong because they don't bother with sanity or reason. While insanity, obstinance, and being 100000% sure that you're right about something you're dead wrong about is a perverse form of power the price of it is... well... being insane and wrong, and it's a form of power that doesn't seem to come without real derangement.
One thing that makes it more uh... of a tangly web. Is that once you establish roles with another person, those can be somewhat difficult to shatter that habitual format. Well, I wouldn't say "difficult" exactly, but there's momentum to overcome.

One of the things to watch for with "bullies" is that they usually start small. And it's useful to be able to force yourself to be forceful towards them at the outset. Basically prevent any roots from growing which would make future interactions problematic. Even if you come across as overreacting a bit to what seems minor.

It can be useful to just go elsewhere and start over, to escape an existing pattern of interpersonal momentum. I don't think it's really necessary, but it's an option many people prefer.
Cybernetic_Jazz wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:54 pm The closest thing I can do is club myself over the head with truth all day long, not just including the Machiavellianism of the world I live in but also some of the really frightening stuff that Nate Hagens is talking about on his channel, like his recent discussion of metal and mineral resource limits
(with Simon Michaux) and how we're set up to have all of this that we have now fall apart within the next decade - long before global warming gets us. These are the people who, while the world starts crashing around them, will either be beating their faces into the wall for status-quo assertion or figuring out whose lower in social pecking order so they can mug them and take their stuff. TBH - letting the human race buttfuck itself out of existence before it ever leaves this planet might be a good idea. We don't get a handle on or even grapple with psychopathy, rather we worship it as the most holy and sacred thing we can imagine. Sadly there are a lot of individual good people mixed in with this species as well who aren't likely to have an enjoyable time over the remainder of this century as the crazies start killing everything and each other.

To that last point that's where my mind shifts to violence. If my martial arts instructor is leaving the area now and I don't want coming worsening of the human condition to catch me off guard I'll probably need to find myself at the gun range more, spending time on a lot of the skillsets needed for that situation. Odds are, almost 100%, being different in any way shape or form - I'll get murdered before I have a chance to utilize any of it, but I still want to at least do something to know that I'm facing it rather than have it all catch me unprepared.
Societies collapse. But it's not the end of the world.
Resources are an issue.
I've never considered "global warming" to be a particularly great threat. It's too uh... "wrapped up in a religious zealotry" to be good science. Scientific consensus is meaningless in an atmosphere of scientific censorship. Rather I think that certain people are leveraging global warming as a simplistic concept to interact with the general public regarding the threat of "sustainability" (which actually is a big problem).

I am keen to the idea of acquiring a farm. Small scale, and very out of the way. Call it "back yard homesteading" perhaps. I'm not an isolationist really, but it's become apparent that dependency on society is going to become problematic in my lifetime. What I'd really love is some place with flowing water. There's so much you can do with the constant free force of flowing water. Although I could probably get solar power which would last as long as this mortal coil will. A key aspect would be for it to have actual rich "soil", not just "dirt, which needs constant fluffing with fertilizer to make decent crops". Such land is generally long since taken & depleted. But I wasn't going to get into tractors and all that, so there may be some places with challenging terrain which is as yet not utilized. I've been studying a lot about how to get from being naked in a forest to having a house, crops, electricity, blacksmithing, etc. Like all of the steps between A, B, C, & D, largely forgotten by modern society. Not to mention some of the 'less desirable ways to interact with others' which you mentioned as being likely when shtf. But mainly to become "society optional".


Although doomsday-thinking is kind of escapism. "My unhealthy social situation doesn't matter because society is going to go away anyway", it has a rather sour grapes overtone, no? Obviously the counter argument is that there's no point debating the color of the drapes when the house is on fire... I get that. I think it would be worth some deep introspection on the motivations & feelings of your thought process though.

Negative feelings interact with others, and even circularly affect the self. It does breed more negativity. I try to be more optimistic. Not because I think it's realistic, but because if I'm going to wield my Will, I want to bring nice things into this vein of time. Plus, I mean, you don't have much force of will in a mopey state of mind. And also, if I'm doomed, the last thing I want to do is mope. Let me fade out grinning from ear to ear at the challenge before me. If I fall, let me fall magnificently. Besides, the end of the world sounds way more interesting than slowly rotting of cancer, or worse getting alzheimer's. Boots-on is THE way to go. Not that I'd ever throw the game, just to ensure my preferred exit.

I guess my feelings on the sustainability issue meaning the world as we know it is going to end, is just "So?".
Seas rise and fall, mountains rise and crumble, not even the stars remain in the same place forever.
I mean no disrespect to the billions who won't make it. That sucks. That I may be one of them sucks slightly more. But that's life. 0% survival rate, right on the label. But have you noticed how the violets change hue as the sun rises? This is fun. Don't tell me about the amusement park closing, I'm only at mid afternoon still.

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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

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To the above, as you describe your analysis of magic - I feel like you're taking pretty much the same approach I'm attempting but you may have more stable data just in terms of having been at it longer than I have. I've seen Josephine McCarthy explain the energy flow in terms of electrical wiring much in the way you did above and TBH - things like this I have some intimate experience with but I still often feel like what I have is a lot of largely either non-repeatable discoveries or only kinda-sorta repeatable. With dissociative psychedelics (relatively high dose DXM in this case) I've had things as strange as a field of touch at a foot to eighteen inch 'aura' where I could feel things come and go from that sphere, and as it wore down I felt that field lapping at my skin until it was back inside me. I also got to feel my consciousness present in something like a straight line of wires as if Kether or Thaumiel were behind me and the front of my body were Malkuth or Lilith, I took this to be representation of some other dimension that I was creating a spatial analogy for and it made me ask Everett type questions, such s the possibility of particles being cross-sections of waveforms across dimensions and maybe I was becoming aware of the slice I was experiencing. As for entity contacts - it's the same for me where I try less to worry about whether they're literally real in the uncaused by me, not of me, and coming to chat sense because I also try to only engage them if I feel like we can do useful things, and if we can do useful things the useful things get done (mostly talking internal transformation or avoiding letting outside world events degrade the quality of my consciousness). I have had experiences of waking up in the middle of the night and being skin-to-skin with entities which were either like static electricity or even, if they were high-powered, in my mind's eye they'd be like human-shaped sparklers and that energy in that case was pure love even if was occasionally, in addition, rather seductive. I get the sense that those entities are clearly 'something real' but I'm debating how I can more adequately sort out the differences between something like a DMT or dream character coming into waking life or, most often, liminal space such as waking up at 2:00 - 3:00 AM with a presence, versus something that I can tell is well beyond that. The discovery that DMT / dream characters and elements can come up above the surface in novel circumstances is part of what has me worried - ie. that it's explainable in sort of common, sort of uncommon, ways but I still don't know the possibilities of said entities.

I've also had kundalini syndrome for a long time where I quite often have felt the warmth at the base of my spine, often enough I've felt it do more if it can get charged up, really more than anything I'd like to alchemically MMORPG-hack my own capabilities with that better but I also get the impression that such accretions are slow enough that it's not likely for me to see instant results, realize I hit the right path, and keep running with it.

What I do strongly agree with you on as well - it seems like this bears out in both energy work in magical contexts and miraculous NDE healings, it seems like what hits is a mass influx of energy, and I take Michael Levin's recent research on bioelectric templates in the body as a kind of software layer above the genes where the ion channels share information and where really your body does quite often have the intelligence to solve its own problems but it takes energy to do that and the miracle is when enough energy pours in to get that job done right.


One of the best ways I can describe where I'm at right now - if my life and psychic space could be analogized to a house - I got hit with two two-year hurricanes and a lot of damage was done. Right now I'm maybe a year out of that storm and I'm still cleaning up broken glass. The good news is I have a couple grams of a few different 4-base tryptamines. I decided to make these orange-cinnamon-cayenne chocolate bombs (dark chocolate with medicinal ganache where I put a gram of lion's mane in all of them but I also tried adding 20 mg 4-ho-met to one of them to test and see if that works. Went pretty well, and also I'm really liking the combination of psychedelics and lion's mane for recovery, and it's a good ways toward a Stamets stack (he'd include niacin but I want the experience, particularly if I'm taking much lower doses more often (5mg maybe) to speak for itself.


With the co-cognition bit you said above there was something I found really interesting, and it could explain a lot. While it's true that I'm a competent and functioning adult I do find that there are some youthful modes and reflexes in me and I've heard from other people that they get crap for it themselves, and quite often when it's been older people (or particularly insecure and competitive older men) it's been what you described as them bringing their internalized stern or even abusive parent down on me - not for rational reasons but on 'feeling' and intuitions. I'm getting to where I have to understand that other people really aren't reliably in control of themselves, it's past their cognitive capabilities, it's really annoying to think that I need to make quite arbitrary changes to myself to stay out of the firing line but - WTF can I do otherwise, if it's not really a choice then there's not a lot I can do about it.


The off-grid and farming bit you mentioned sounds interesting as well. I do have a pipe-dream and it really depends how well my investments work out. Part of me really wants to start a local vertical farm (the sort of indoor, 15 levels of plants growing either hydroponic or aquaponic with LED's all around, ideally no pesticides needed) and I'm still not sure whether I'll be able to have the money by the time that both LED's and solar get cheap enough to run these places cost effectively AND big corporate projects haven't moved into my area already. I'm a programmer, I enjoy solving bottlenecks, and that sort of science that has immediate gratification if you find the right way to massively reduce the cost of power, tweaking the environmental ratios, etc., having all kinds of SQL data on plant progress, that's the sort of thing I could see myself enjoying.


Anyway thank you for the lengthy and thoughtful reply and I'm not sure if you're in a place where you have an extended weekend but either enjoy the rest of your extended weekend or - happy Monday! :)
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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

Post by Cybernetic_Jazz »

Something else you might really appreciate, particularly with your analytic approach to the energy work, I don't know if I've mentioned Karl Friston's concepts and work with Markov blankets and what he refers to as 'free energy principle' or really it's utilizations by disequilibrium systems in something of a maximum reduction 'tragedy of the commons' sort of way but I really think he's saying something interesting and I can't help but get the sense that people who are practicing chaos magic or any kind of first-principles magic are tapping into something like what he's talking about. Massive energy bursts are probably coming down the stack of higher-level contracts / conscious agents (speaking from my functionalism with multiple realizability) rather than farmed at the individual level but I do see where this seems approximate some of what we're handling. Particularly it seems like Markov mathematics has a lot to do with dynamic systems of any kind including biology, human life, etc. and Karl is doing a deep dive into that with his research.
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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

Post by Kath »

Cybernetic_Jazz wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 3:39 pm ...Josephine McCarthy explain the energy flow in terms of electrical wiring much in the way you did above and TBH - things like this I have some intimate experience with but I still often feel like what I have is a lot of largely either non-repeatable discoveries or only kinda-sorta repeatable...
Any correlation, even if unreliable, is exciting. Granted we have to be mindful of an accurate sense of probability and statistics. I mean, coincidences are actually common, given the sheer quantity of "stuff" which happens. But where coincidences seem excessive, above and beyond having an accurate filter allowing that 'some' coincidences are random... then that correlation has potential value.

An example of unrealized potential value (for me) would be something like guessing at dice rolls. I can beat the odds more often than not. Whether that's precognitive or microtelekinesis, I don't know. But there's an aberration in the math, and that's of interest. Broader studies have shown that if you have large numbers of people guess at dice rolls, the species in general "slightly" beats the odds. And further, that if you then test only those who have beaten the odds, you can basically disprove 'lucky chance', because that group (on the whole) will consistently perform better than the general populace. So I feel strongly that there is a valuable insight to be had on that front. But I have not been able to sort out the nuts & bolts of it, and leverage that towards any significant change in the degree of statistical aberration I achieve in dice guessing.

Something is going on there, but I don't have any models which allow for any form of meaningful utility, or meaningful engagement with the underlying principals. The only headway I made on that topic is that attempting to manufacture a pre-determined (in the testing sense) outcome, is that there needs to be a chaotic system of sufficient complexity. Or put another way, "the higher the dice flies, the better". I "suspect" this may touch on the role of cognition in quantum mechanics, but it's hard to say.

Then there's other areas where noticing and investigating statistical aberrations proved far more fruitful.

But I wouldn't say "only" limited success. Since any success at all is very interesting.
With dissociative psychedelics (relatively high dose DXM in this case) I've had things as strange as a field of touch at a foot to eighteen inch 'aura' where I could feel things come and go from that sphere, and as it wore down I felt that field lapping at my skin until it was back inside me. I also got to feel my consciousness present in something like a straight line of wires as if Kether or Thaumiel were behind me and the front of my body were Malkuth or Lilith, I took this to be representation of some other dimension that I was creating a spatial analogy for and it made me ask Everett type questions, such s the possibility of particles being cross-sections of waveforms across dimensions and maybe I was becoming aware of the slice I was experiencing. As for entity contacts - it's the same for me where I try less to worry about whether they're literally real in the uncaused by me, not of me, and coming to chat sense because I also try to only engage them if I feel like we can do useful things, and if we can do useful things the useful things get done (mostly talking internal transformation or avoiding letting outside world events degrade the quality of my consciousness). I have had experiences of waking up in the middle of the night and being skin-to-skin with entities which were either like static electricity or even, if they were high-powered, in my mind's eye they'd be like human-shaped sparklers and that energy in that case was pure love even if was occasionally, in addition, rather seductive. I get the sense that those entities are clearly 'something real' but I'm debating how I can more adequately sort out the differences between something like a DMT or dream character coming into waking life or, most often, liminal space such as waking up at 2:00 - 3:00 AM with a presence, versus something that I can tell is well beyond that. The discovery that DMT / dream characters and elements can come up above the surface in novel circumstances is part of what has me worried - ie. that it's explainable in sort of common, sort of uncommon, ways but I still don't know the possibilities of said entities.
I haven't done any investigating of psychedelics. I don't doubt they have potential value. But usually I see them used in a very halfhazard way. My suspicion is that by confusing the senses, they allow interaction with senses which people largely ignore in their normal frame of mind. Albeit in a rather chaotic fashion. I tend to think that it would be 'difficult' to develop a meaningfully useful relationship with such senses while in that state of mind though. In other words, people come down, say "wow that was weird", and perhaps understand that something profound was touched upon. But don't know how to meaningfully engage with what they've gleaned, unless they drop again. The chaos which allows access to the sensations, also inhibits meaningful interpretation.

That's not to say that I think it isn't useful. I think it could be. But personally I'm just more focused on tinkering with states of consciousness in a more deliberate way. Also I'm a bit wary of having any after-effects intruding into what is otherwise a very clean-slate and careful observation of extra sensory content. Also I'm just not really convinced I need DMT or similar, to engage with the unseen.

I've experienced a LOT of entity interaction and/or perception. Wide ranging. Even from childhood. From the sensation of egregore-like flows in church, to experiences like sleep paralysis, without the paralysis part. Also, in learning the 'extra layers' of co-cogitation between humans, there's plenty of 'other' data, or signal noise. Which I came to regard as deriving from disembodied sentiences, which are present sometimes. Whether or not that's an accurate model 'shrug". But delineating it that way allows for much more accurate filtering out of signal noise, which greatly improves the clarity of sensation of other people. As well as much more meaningful interaction with the signal noise, which I ascribe to being disembodied sentiences.

You mention 'touch' with very strong sensations, around certain entities. Personally when I was experiencing social anxiety, I felt that way about the touch of other people as well. Actually I'd characterize my social anxiety as really being just wildly uncontrolled empathy or sensitivity to energy flows. The turnkey for me getting a handle on social anxiety was very literally just the gradual process of refining my sensation of energy/empathy, and gaining meaningful control over it. Fast forward some years, and that social anxiety had morphed into something like a sense of social power & control to a somewhat frightening degree. I overshot the mark of normalcy on both sides ;)
I've also had kundalini syndrome for a long time where I quite often have felt the warmth at the base of my spine, often enough I've felt it do more if it can get charged up, really more than anything I'd like to alchemically MMORPG-hack my own capabilities with that better but I also get the impression that such accretions are slow enough that it's not likely for me to see instant results, realize I hit the right path, and keep running with it.
Though I lean fairly eastern in concept and practice, I don't really find the popular chakra models to do much for me. Mind you there are 'many' models for chakras & energy flows in the body. Modern society seems to have settled on just a few very similar models, but there are many, and they don't all overlap or agree with each other. I mean just look at the ritual significance of seppuku for an example. I rather like the 3-chakra model in tai chi. It's more simplistic and less dogmatically presented. Although i'd slightly adjust the positions.

I consider myself to fall ideologically, and in practice, under a broad "umbrella" interpretation of Tantra. To some I'd be quite a heretical tantrika, but in a broad sense i'm in that sphere. I have no particular notice of any 'root' chakra at the base of the spine, groin, etc. Rather I see the point at which I am glued to my body as being in the solar plexus area. Which is much more similar to the uh... "spiritual anatomy" concepts of shinto, where seppuku was invented (though I don't advocate seppuku).

With raising of the kundalini, I get "the stuff", the experience, the sensation, in some cases almost frighteningly powerfully. But I have no idea what the vedics are on about with the base of the spine. I guess I'm shinto-tantrik, with daoist sprinkles, and a big fan of thelema and chaos magic (though not necessarily in the same format as is popular). But it's not surprising to me that I don't find my experiences fitting neatly into any popular model. Most learn the cosmology, and then interpret their experiences into the presented model. I do it the other way around, explore the experiences, and then find models which might be inform the experiences. Also I'm rather devoutly anti-dogma (which is good science, i think ;) ).

There's a lot of uh 'spiritual mechanics' which i just interpretively translate into popular models. Like "grounding", it makes sense, anchoring to the ground is a great metaphor for it. But REALLY when i do 'that', it's more reaching out from the crown & shoulder blades to latch onto the fabric of reality in a way which is agnostic to directions like up & down, or any earthen matter.

I rarely talk about this, because it tends to inspire people to 'illuminate me in the errors of my perceptions'. And while I try to invite constructive criticism, not just ideologically, but in a true and genuine appreciation of the knowledge of others, there's a cutoff somewhere around the 500th time I've heard it, where it's no longer interesting or helpful, hehe. I don't adhere to the dogmas of popular cosmologies. I don't particularly think 'everyone is shaped the same on the inside', and I'd dispute the idea even that there is a 'normal' spiritual anatomy.

So uh, super long winded there (sorry), but the point was, that even though I'm very much the eastern/vedic sort, I'm kinda having to translate what you said into my native concepts of spiritual anatomy :P If I understand correctly though, you're raising kundalini-esque energy to effect magic, shaped by Will, etc. If that's the case, then crucial elements (in my view) would be sheer quantity of energy in question, the single-mindedness of the Will in question, sensitivity to the energy so that there is sensation of what one is doing, and practiced efficacy in handling energy.

When wielding energy, I find that internal energies are highly cooperative. But external energies can be larger in scale.

You can wield external energy, though there's a sort of balance between "how much", and the degree of finite control. Like holding a tool, it can be tricky to have great control & finesse with something really large. I spent years improving the uh 'muscles' of wielding energy. To allow for greater heavy lifting of energy, and finer levels of control at a given scale. But in the past decade or so, I've kinda shifted approaches. I'd more describe my current approach as shifting the mental state such that the lines between 'internal' and 'external' energy are more blurred. Kinda leveraging the tantrik equivalent of HGA stuff to make 'internal' and 'external' a lot less well defined. With relatively 'big' changes in the scale of energy one can handle, and the sense of control over the energy. The new limiting dichotomy becomes that the highest self is pretty scant on Will, so there's a sweet spot between finite self and non-finite self where there's still lots of Will, and also lots of energy in play. Kinda like the old scale/control issue, just an order of magnitude (or two) broader in scope. And the 'trick' to doing really potent energy wielding is just pushing Will and non-finite-self both to a more elevated state, in a way which would seem contraindicated by the irrational relationship between the two. Which in turn relates to an ideology I hold, that individual Will and non-finite-self are only superficially apposing forces.

There's also the 'how', i mean the 'what' you do with the energy. How is it imbued, purposed, etc. Does that have good leverage on the desired goal? Is it a 'shot in the dark' of releasing intent into the world? Or more particularly aimed & directed? Kinda relates to the idea of "work smarter, not harder" (even if being buff certainly doesn't hurt ;) ). This goes back to perception of energy, and even perception of the situation itself on a mundane level. Where 'exactly' would just an ounce of force have a dramatic effect? That's where the really detailed control over personal energy shines.

So instead of sending energy out "apposed to obstacle XYZ", perhaps "the upper right branch of Y seems to be a crucial element of the broader XYZ problem, so lets target specifically that branch of the Y with this energy".
In a similar vein, if the aid of an entity is solicited, what 'exactly' would the entity do? When I interact with entities, I almost never say "could I have a fish". I'm more inclined to say "what is that curved piece of metal at the end of that string? how does that work? Why does the fish put it's mouth on it? How do you know when it's time to pull the string?". In some cases asking such questions rhetorically to myself about what an entity is doing even in a confrontational situation.

What I do strongly agree with you on as well - it seems like this bears out in both energy work in magical contexts and miraculous NDE healings, it seems like what hits is a mass influx of energy, and I take Michael Levin's recent research on bioelectric templates in the body as a kind of software layer above the genes where the ion channels share information and where really your body does quite often have the intelligence to solve its own problems but it takes energy to do that and the miracle is when enough energy pours in to get that job done right.
I suck at healing :P Not "inept" at it, but definitely not my strong suit. Have some first hand experience with 'faith healing'. Best I can describe it is to channel energy which is a certain way, to the certain spot. And then hope that the body does something helpful with it. Can't really deliberately (and with detail & control) guide the energy down to molecular level effects. Seems much easier to heal the self though. Like Will shaping energy which effects one's own body. So there may be something to the idea of targeting the psyche of an injured person as much as their injury itself. To get their Will to hone in on their problem, and enforce a kind of blueprint of health onto their energy. And then supply a lot of energy towards that. Interestingly, I find that healing energy feels remarkably similar to the emotive energy of 'love'.
I dunno. I have a lot to learn on that front.

One of the best ways I can describe where I'm at right now - if my life and psychic space could be analogized to a house - I got hit with two two-year hurricanes and a lot of damage was done. Right now I'm maybe a year out of that storm and I'm still cleaning up broken glass.
any landing you can walk away from... ;)
The good news is I have a couple grams of a few different 4-base tryptamines. I decided to make these orange-cinnamon-cayenne chocolate bombs (dark chocolate with medicinal ganache where I put a gram of lion's mane in all of them but I also tried adding 20 mg 4-ho-met to one of them to test and see if that works. Went pretty well, and also I'm really liking the combination of psychedelics and lion's mane for recovery, and it's a good ways toward a Stamets stack (he'd include niacin but I want the experience, particularly if I'm taking much lower doses more often (5mg maybe) to speak for itself.
Outside my experience field :P
With the co-cognition bit you said above there was something I found really interesting, and it could explain a lot. While it's true that I'm a competent and functioning adult I do find that there are some youthful modes and reflexes in me and I've heard from other people that they get crap for it themselves, and quite often when it's been older people (or particularly insecure and competitive older men) it's been what you described as them bringing their internalized stern or even abusive parent down on me - not for rational reasons but on 'feeling' and intuitions. I'm getting to where I have to understand that other people really aren't reliably in control of themselves, it's past their cognitive capabilities, it's really annoying to think that I need to make quite arbitrary changes to myself to stay out of the firing line but - WTF can I do otherwise, if it's not really a choice then there's not a lot I can do about it.
The 'normal' condition of homosapiens is to be broadly unaware of the forces which shape their interactions with others. To be broadly ignorant of what influences their thinking (both from within and from without). And to be broadly unaware of the underlying emotions and thought processes which shape their behavior. Not to mention broadly unaware of their effect on others.

People behave "unmindfully", and are often belligerent. And they're radically susceptible to influence.
The latter can be used to mitigate the former.
I think it's unhealthy to overtly manipulate the psyche of others. But sometimes it's either that or outright conflict. And I'm not such a pacifist that I'd avoid bruising the free will of someone who means me harm. It's just unhealthy (on multiple levels) to gather up peoples' strings and think of them as puppets. But my mentor says i am TOO cautious in that regard, for whatever that's worth. But that's coming from a being which radiates a deific radiance which could easily mind-scramble someone with a weak sense of self :P
The off-grid and farming bit you mentioned sounds interesting as well. I do have a pipe-dream and it really depends how well my investments work out. Part of me really wants to start a local vertical farm (the sort of indoor, 15 levels of plants growing either hydroponic or aquaponic with LED's all around, ideally no pesticides needed) and I'm still not sure whether I'll be able to have the money by the time that both LED's and solar get cheap enough to run these places cost effectively AND big corporate projects haven't moved into my area already. I'm a programmer, I enjoy solving bottlenecks, and that sort of science that has immediate gratification if you find the right way to massively reduce the cost of power, tweaking the environmental ratios, etc., having all kinds of SQL data on plant progress, that's the sort of thing I could see myself enjoying.
Sounds more elaborate than what I was thinking. But I like it!
I was just thinking "How do I avoid killing potato plants, beehives, & chickens. And what could I do to improve quality of life with natural resources and a presumed limitation of future store-bought items." Basically a crash course in amish technology ;) but with a flair for novel ideas like a solar forge.

But the idea of indoor farming has merit. Might want to stockpile deeply into replacement LED's though. What's the shelf life of an unused LED anyway? Hmmm, given the losses of solar panels, etc, you'd need a solar farm which is broader in area than the building in which you're growing. Perhaps clear poly siding & reflector panels? Or just a greenhouse :P

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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

Post by Kath »

Cybernetic_Jazz wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 4:31 pm Something else you might really appreciate, particularly with your analytic approach to the energy work, I don't know if I've mentioned Karl Friston's concepts and work with Markov blankets and what he refers to as 'free energy principle' or really it's utilizations by disequilibrium systems in something of a maximum reduction 'tragedy of the commons' sort of way but I really think he's saying something interesting and I can't help but get the sense that people who are practicing chaos magic or any kind of first-principles magic are tapping into something like what he's talking about. Massive energy bursts are probably coming down the stack of higher-level contracts / conscious agents (speaking from my functionalism with multiple realizability) rather than farmed at the individual level but I do see where this seems approximate some of what we're handling. Particularly it seems like Markov mathematics has a lot to do with dynamic systems of any kind including biology, human life, etc. and Karl is doing a deep dive into that with his research.
Still kinda unpacking that. Having to look up some stuff :P

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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

Post by Cybernetic_Jazz »

Kath wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:29 pm I've experienced a LOT of entity interaction and/or perception. Wide ranging. Even from childhood. From the sensation of egregore-like flows in church, to experiences like sleep paralysis, without the paralysis part. Also, in learning the 'extra layers' of co-cogitation between humans, there's plenty of 'other' data, or signal noise. Which I came to regard as deriving from disembodied sentiences, which are present sometimes. Whether or not that's an accurate model 'shrug". But delineating it that way allows for much more accurate filtering out of signal noise, which greatly improves the clarity of sensation of other people. As well as much more meaningful interaction with the signal noise, which I ascribe to being disembodied sentiences.

You mention 'touch' with very strong sensations, around certain entities. Personally when I was experiencing social anxiety, I felt that way about the touch of other people as well. Actually I'd characterize my social anxiety as really being just wildly uncontrolled empathy or sensitivity to energy flows. The turnkey for me getting a handle on social anxiety was very literally just the gradual process of refining my sensation of energy/empathy, and gaining meaningful control over it. Fast forward some years, and that social anxiety had morphed into something like a sense of social power & control to a somewhat frightening degree. I overshot the mark of normalcy on both sides ;)
So yeah, I had that sensitivity issue as a kid where it was easy for other people to get inside my head. I got more resilient over time but I'd notice in work situation if someone was raging at me at work in a narcissistic sort of way I could feel the heat radiating across cubicles. I think a lot of these people are technically black magicians in a way without knowing it. I forgot what the exact magical term is for this (edit - 'seething' I believe) but it's something to the effect of hocking up a white-hot ball of emotion and hurling it at a particular target, and some of those who are actually pretty good at this are really bitter reductive materialist atheists.

Kath wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:29 pmI consider myself to fall ideologically, and in practice, under a broad "umbrella" interpretation of Tantra. To some I'd be quite a heretical tantrika, but in a broad sense i'm in that sphere. I have no particular notice of any 'root' chakra at the base of the spine, groin, etc. Rather I see the point at which I am glued to my body as being in the solar plexus area. Which is much more similar to the uh... "spiritual anatomy" concepts of shinto, where seppuku was invented (though I don't advocate seppuku).

With raising of the kundalini, I get "the stuff", the experience, the sensation, in some cases almost frighteningly powerfully. But I have no idea what the vedics are on about with the base of the spine. I guess I'm shinto-tantrik, with daoist sprinkles, and a big fan of thelema and chaos magic (though not necessarily in the same format as is popular). But it's not surprising to me that I don't find my experiences fitting neatly into any popular model. Most learn the cosmology, and then interpret their experiences into the presented model. I do it the other way around, explore the experiences, and then find models which might be inform the experiences. Also I'm rather devoutly anti-dogma (which is good science, i think ;) ).
Kath wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:29 pmI rarely talk about this, because it tends to inspire people to 'illuminate me in the errors of my perceptions'. And while I try to invite constructive criticism, not just ideologically, but in a true and genuine appreciation of the knowledge of others, there's a cutoff somewhere around the 500th time I've heard it, where it's no longer interesting or helpful, hehe. I don't adhere to the dogmas of popular cosmologies. I don't particularly think 'everyone is shaped the same on the inside', and I'd dispute the idea even that there is a 'normal' spiritual anatomy.
I really think it's like anything else in terms of how people think about anything - ie. the only one right, best way in the world, is the one they're doing right now. I have my own thoughts on why people are like this and it might be less charitable than what you say further below.
Kath wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:29 pmThere's also the 'how', i mean the 'what' you do with the energy. How is it imbued, purposed, etc. Does that have good leverage on the desired goal? Is it a 'shot in the dark' of releasing intent into the world? Or more particularly aimed & directed? Kinda relates to the idea of "work smarter, not harder" (even if being buff certainly doesn't hurt ;) ). This goes back to perception of energy, and even perception of the situation itself on a mundane level. Where 'exactly' would just an ounce of force have a dramatic effect? That's where the really detailed control over personal energy shines.

So instead of sending energy out "apposed to obstacle XYZ", perhaps "the upper right branch of Y seems to be a crucial element of the broader XYZ problem, so lets target specifically that branch of the Y with this energy".

In a similar vein, if the aid of an entity is solicited, what 'exactly' would the entity do? When I interact with entities, I almost never say "could I have a fish". I'm more inclined to say "what is that curved piece of metal at the end of that string? how does that work? Why does the fish put it's mouth on it? How do you know when it's time to pull the string?". In some cases asking such questions rhetorically to myself about what an entity is doing even in a confrontational situation.
See - I don't have any good 'exact' targets right now in terms of outside world achievements other than just staring at the crypto charts and timing my buy and sell decisions. I'm really starting to think I should do something maybe like LBRP a couple times per day again because I'm in a position where I should be doing more 'drawing myself back to myself'.
Kath wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:29 pmThe 'normal' condition of homosapiens is to be broadly unaware of the forces which shape their interactions with others. To be broadly ignorant of what influences their thinking (both from within and from without). And to be broadly unaware of the underlying emotions and thought processes which shape their behavior. Not to mention broadly unaware of their effect on others.

People behave "unmindfully", and are often belligerent. And they're radically susceptible to influence.
The latter can be used to mitigate the former.
I think it's worse than this.

In many cases they're profoundly ignorant, profoundly competitive, and very economically and socially successful. When I see that their ignorance is helping them 'win', it's something else.

There's a short book (150 pages) by John Gray called 'Straw Dogs - On Humans and Other Animals' (sorry if I brought it up earlier in the thread already, I may have) where he vetted a lot of what I've seen. People have a way of doing things that are ruthlessly pragmatic, which don't morally align with any good social standing, and so they fabricate stories of who they are, try to bullshit themselves out of seeing the evil they do, and they do it with these hair-pin turns of perfect hypocrisy. It's not that they're stupid, it's that the engine running under the facade is averistically malevolent and so long as it's mugging an outsider or outside group it's okay. One of John Gray's examples was the Christians who emigrated from Europe to Tasmania and really brutally butchered the natives, slowly over time, in a similar way to which some African hunters might butcher gorillas for medicinal purposes. It was genocide on one level but on another level things got even more perverse, and that behavior of course came from people who went to their makeshift churches and prayed for redemption every Sunday and probably prayed many times per day.

It's almost like, among many groups, morality isn't supposed to be 'real', it's either just an in-group thing or a fake alibi, and anyone whose really trying to develop the real think in terms of morality is seen as showing signs of mental retardation for not being utterly duplicitous and underhanded in their pursuit of it - which then means that's a person whose less human, so it's okay to rape and kill them (either literally or, in counties with better law enforcement the closest legal equivalent) and then take all their stuff.
Kath wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:29 pmSounds more elaborate than what I was thinking. But I like it!
I was just thinking "How do I avoid killing potato plants, beehives, & chickens. And what could I do to improve quality of life with natural resources and a presumed limitation of future store-bought items." Basically a crash course in amish technology ;) but with a flair for novel ideas like a solar forge.

But the idea of indoor farming has merit. Might want to stockpile deeply into replacement LED's though. What's the shelf life of an unused LED anyway? Hmmm, given the losses of solar panels, etc, you'd need a solar farm which is broader in area than the building in which you're growing. Perhaps clear poly siding & reflector panels? Or just a greenhouse :P
It's a place where I feel like I'm still talking shit but it seems like a good stake to plant in the ground - ie. I want to do something beneficial to humanity that I enjoy doing and that's a spot that's out in the kind of direction I want to go in.

I've also been watching videos on cabin building and the like or various rustic modular homes. I'd love to be able to both know that I've got myself financially taken care of - and - keep the sorts of people who do brain damage by just being around them at a more solid distance rather than having them in a position where they can pull the strings where I work for a living.
Last edited by Cybernetic_Jazz on Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

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Kath wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:44 pm
Cybernetic_Jazz wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 4:31 pm Something else you might really appreciate, particularly with your analytic approach to the energy work, I don't know if I've mentioned Karl Friston's concepts and work with Markov blankets and what he refers to as 'free energy principle' or really it's utilizations by disequilibrium systems in something of a maximum reduction 'tragedy of the commons' sort of way but I really think he's saying something interesting and I can't help but get the sense that people who are practicing chaos magic or any kind of first-principles magic are tapping into something like what he's talking about. Massive energy bursts are probably coming down the stack of higher-level contracts / conscious agents (speaking from my functionalism with multiple realizability) rather than farmed at the individual level but I do see where this seems approximate some of what we're handling. Particularly it seems like Markov mathematics has a lot to do with dynamic systems of any kind including biology, human life, etc. and Karl is doing a deep dive into that with his research.
Still kinda unpacking that. Having to look up some stuff :P
Some helpful resources on this:

Stephen Wolfram discussing hypergraph and rulial space on Lex Fridman podcast # 234:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-SGpEInX_c

Karl Friston discussing Markov blanket and 'free energy principle' on Curt Jaimungal's Theories of Everything:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v7LBABwZKA

You brought up healing and not knowing what exactly to do on these really low, molecular biology and enzyme levels. What I understand from Michael Levin's work is that the bioelectric template will do that on its own if it's not blocked, meaning there are things it wants to do but can't at given times. In a way what he's talking about really seems to interface with a lot of idea in Reiki, although I don't think he'd ever admit it, really he won't even talk much to Rupert Sheldrake because he's trying to walk a fine line and make sure that the science he's doing is treated as such rather than getting kicked out for another 50 years as 'woo-woo nonsense':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm7VDk8kxOw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0TNfysTazc
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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

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Cybernetic_Jazz wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:14 pm So yeah, I had that sensitivity issue as a kid where it was easy for other people to get inside my head. I got more resilient over time but I'd notice in work situation if someone was raging at me at work in a narcissistic sort of way I could feel the heat radiating across cubicles. I think a lot of these people are technically black magicians in a way without knowing it. I forgot what the exact magical term is for this (edit - 'seething' I believe) but it's something to the effect of hocking up a white-hot ball of emotion and hurling it at a particular target, and some of those who are actually pretty good at this are really bitter reductive materialist atheists.
I mean, I think all interaction between sentient beings has "magical" layers to it. So not only would I agree that people practice unintentional magic, but rather I think EVERYONE does, and they do it ALL of the time. Some have more potency than others in this regard, but for the most part it seems like people largely just stumble into their patterns of approach to interacting with others.
There is some self help and/or motivational speaker content out there which can kinda indirectly inform how people approach it though. Frames of mind, or habitual patterns of approaching how to interact with others can have kinda crude magical effects which are loosely tied to intent.

I think it's kinda like 2-D/3-D chess still, but a person can only be 'aware' only of the 2-D chess, but still notice a few oddities, like when they move a piece there, it tends to get taken. No idea how or why, but people can be stuck in the 2-D awareness of chess, and still hone some degree of uh... utility vs the 3-D aspects of it. Some people are more influential, some people have more charisma, some people are better at pushing their will to get their way, some people are better at avoiding negative relationships, etc. Without really knowing the deeper nuts & bolts of what they're doing. Granted my idea of the nuts & bolts is a 'model' too, but it is a highly utilitarian (accurate & predictive) model. And dramatically more nuanced & intricate than most peoples' models of human interaction.

Someone just saying "I've learned that you have to stand up to bullies" is basically applying a model, it's just a very simplistic one. And they didn't so much derive it from observation & theory application, as stumble into it from trial & error, or just copy someone else who was doing better. Kinda general wisdom like "don't put water on a grease fire" (because they or someone they know tried it and found out).

Whereas I'd postulate the result pretty accurately, that you're going to have to separate the fuel from the oxidizer, and grease would just float on top of water, increasing it's surface area and increasing the contact area between the fuel & oxidizer.

Actually that reminds me of something that happened when i learned blacksmithing. I had a steel rod in the coals, and it got too hot (more white than red). And the person teaching me told me I ruined the steel, cuz it's gonna burn when I pull it out. So I turned down the blower to make the fire a little more oxygen starved, pulled the rod out of the coals, but carefully kept the hot part inside the dense smoke stream of the coals, until it cooled somewhat. And the result was that it 'didnt' turn into a giant sparkler, because i didn't pull it into oxygen rich air. And the person teaching me was like "huh, never saw that". Just an example of how experience is informative, but so is applied scientific awareness ;)
(btw, if you ever wondered, that's why you try not to "have too many irons in the fire" ;) )

But in the arena of interactions between sentient beings, people are 'minimally perceptive'. So slogans, general wisdom, experience, etc. has limited value. The bar is pretty low. And the relative potential of an intricate and accurate model is very high.

What surprises me, is how inept entities often are at such interactions. Sure they have a better handle on basic energy manipulation than the average person. They vary, but I don't really see most entities dissecting the processes & perceptions in great detail, no appreciation of the broader scope of nuances. They mostly play 2-D chess as well, just on a different level than physical people. Coming from a 2-D physical people mindset, they can seem really powerful and mysterious, but they're every bit as n00b, they just have a different skillset & experience pool. They're on a different level of the chess board, but still broadly unaware of the multiple levels of the larger 3D board.

I really think it's like anything else in terms of how people think about anything - ie. the only one right, best way in the world, is the one they're doing right now. I have my own thoughts on why people are like this and it might be less charitable than what you say further below.
I dunno if I'm "charitable" so much. More like I have low expectations. So I don't get hot under the collar when people act like people ;)
See - I don't have any good 'exact' targets right now in terms of outside world achievements other than just staring at the crypto charts and timing my buy and sell decisions. I'm really starting to think I should do something maybe like LBRP a couple times per day again because I'm in a position where I should be doing more 'drawing myself back to myself'.
hehe, i don't really do LBRP.
I mean I "have", it's just I was underwhelmed.
But I'm a huge fan of drawing oneself back to oneself.
I think it's just that LBRP is outward focused in action. And I think the greater work of drawing oneself back to oneself is more a inwardly focused thing. I think of LBRP as more like a bandaid than a curative.

I think it's worse than this.

In many cases they're profoundly ignorant, profoundly competitive, and very economically and socially successful. When I see that their ignorance is helping them 'win', it's something else.

There's a short book (150 pages) by John Gray called 'Straw Dogs - On Humans and Other Animals' (sorry if I brought it up earlier in the thread already, I may have) where he vetted a lot of what I've seen. People have a way of doing things that are ruthlessly pragmatic, which don't morally align with any good social standing, and so they fabricate stories of who they are, try to bullshit themselves out of seeing the evil they do, and they do it with these hair-pin turns of perfect hypocrisy. It's not that they're stupid, it's that the engine running under the facade is averistically malevolent and so long as it's mugging an outsider or outside group it's okay. One of John Gray's examples was the Christians who emigrated from Europe to Tasmania and really brutally butchered the natives, slowly over time, in a similar way to which some African hunters might butcher gorillas for medicinal purposes. It was genocide on one level but on another level things got even more perverse, and that behavior of course came from people who went to their makeshift churches and prayed for redemption every Sunday and probably prayed many times per day.

It's almost like, among many groups, morality isn't supposed to be 'real', it's either just an in-group thing or a fake alibi, and anyone whose really trying to develop the real think in terms of morality is seen as showing signs of mental retardation for not being utterly duplicitous and underhanded in their pursuit of it - which then means that's a person whose less human, so it's okay to rape and kill them (either literally or, in counties with better law enforcement the closest legal equivalent) and then take all their stuff.
don't hold back, tell us what you really think :P
hehe

At the most basic level "things just 'are' ". So when we apply value judgments (good or bad)... it's kinda an expression of our expectations.
Misanthropy is a symptom of idealism ;)

Also groups of people tend towards the lowest common denominator. It's definitely not the most flattering light to view others in.

What if your highest self, was a reflection of everything in the universe. Good and bad, desirable and undesirable, pretty and ugly, etc.?
I know a lot of people try to make 'being more at one with the universe' out to be very uh... whitey-lighty. But I strongly suspect a great deal of ideological dogma, inserted to encourage good behavior. What if it just 'is'. And you just 'are'. What if no horror, and no awe inspiring thing is really beyond it, or beyond you? What if it's horrible and wondrous and everything in between, and so are you? And everyone else for that matter.

In the journey inward, i figured out that my horns hold up my halo. But taken to the extreme, the journey inwards leads outwards. And you realize that the universe's horns hold up it's halo too. And you kinda start to realize you're not unique, actually the 'exact' opposite of unique. Just a face of the greater whole, looking simultaneously inward and outward into infinity, and a mirror.

In meditation there's a part of mind which is just 'awareness' without thought. I've heard it called the silent observer. I'd almost equate it, to the universe just having a kinesthetic sense of self, in the non-finite sense.
But there's sticky stuff holding you in a finite position in the universe, in a bipedal primate. And I think it's best to just let the primate be what it is. Which is both good and bad, or neither, depending on how you look at it.
Perhaps another way to look at it, is as the self being a finite specific point, surrounded by an infinite number of radians of infinite length. You are the whole volume, and yet also a specific point in the volume.

Don't get ruffled when the nearby bipeds act like the nearby bipeds ;)
But unlike pacifist types, I say if your particular biped doesn't like something, let your particular biped react however it's gonna react. It's just kinda letting the small self be itself. No different than letting the small self eat if it's hungry.

I think I behave in a way which seems fairly altruistic-leaning, but it's just because my small self enjoys positive interactions more than negative ones. And I'm sufficiently intimate with my own darkness that I'm neither surprised nor put off by it in other beings. If my inner demon and angel can figure out how to get along, what in the universe can't? Pretty easy going :P unless both my inner demon and inner angel 'agree' that something is unacceptable. If they both agree in wanting a head on a platter, then it's a bad day to be the owner of said head. The small self has self interests. It is what it is. Finite beings have self interests & instincts.
It's a place where I feel like I'm still talking shit but it seems like a good stake to plant in the ground - ie. I want to do something beneficial to humanity that I enjoy doing and that's a spot that's out in the kind of direction I want to go in.

I've also been watching videos on cabin building and the like or various rustic modular homes. I'd love to be able to both know that I've got myself financially taken care of - and - keep the sorts of people who do brain damage by just being around them at a more solid distance rather than having them in a position where they can pull the strings where I work for a living.
By contrast, I'm very gregarious for a hermitess :P
A party on an airplane. I'm enjoying the party! but things seem a little wonky, some of the party goers are gettin kinda weird. So I'm enjoying the party ...in close proximity to the parachutes ;)

Modular rustic building? That sounds interesting. I love wood.
But I was kinda thinking something extraordinarily robust. a "brick shit house" basically. Not that I want a shitty house :P it's just outhouses are usually made of wood, so it's a statement of an excessively robust build. I guess it kinda goes to a general vibe where I like to do something right ...once. Rather than half measures ;) If there was cedar available locally, I could be tempted by log cabin construction. But it would be tricky to lift 'robust' sized logs. Leaning more 'mini-castle', focusing on stone work & concrete. Set up a rain collector, a backyard bbq-pit/forge/kiln, maybe plant a little orchard, some raspberry bushes, fence in the chicken coup area for the cat to play in & keep the chickens double-layer safe, a few tomato plants, room to grow potatoes and corn, etc. A 'wild' garden would be nice too. it's far easier to keep edible weeds green than modern crops.
But realistically I'll probably have to settle for something less idyllic.
Starlink would be super useful, since "out of the way" and having internetz is a tricky mix :P
20ms latency is acceptable.

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Re: Is Shakti the flip-side of a conscious wave form?

Post by Cybernetic_Jazz »

Kath wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:16 pm hehe, i don't really do LBRP.
I mean I "have", it's just I was underwhelmed.
But I'm a huge fan of drawing oneself back to oneself.
I think it's just that LBRP is outward focused in action. And I think the greater work of drawing oneself back to oneself is more a inwardly focused thing. I think of LBRP as more like a bandaid than a curative.
I think for me it's more of a plug for the idea of trying to communicate to myself that I'm attempting to balance my 'four elements'.

I'm definitely in a place of transition, and I've noticed that for a while now I've almost directly exchanged reading books on the topics I'm interested in to doing long-form podcasts (tons of them throughout the day) and I think it's because I'm trying to grab new threads, a lot of it's finance (particularly cryptos and commodities) and a lot of it's people like Nate Hagens, Daniel Schmachtenberger, Zak Stein, and a lot of the GameB and The Consilience Project related thinkers.

One slight step back in the reading direction - I did pick up a digital copy of George Hansen's 'The Trickster and the Paranormal' and I'm hoping to dig deeper into that this weekend, and I'm especially interested in figuring what exactly it is that he means by 'destructuring'. I think with magic, for a long time, I've had a real problem with not being able to get a clear map of what it's confines actually are, and if you can't find the edges and especially if so much of it relies on confidence, it takes knowing those confines (at least the way my own brain works) to feel right with what I'm doing (whether that's having assurances about the outcomes or even just assurance that I'm not spinning my wheels and wasting time that really needs to be spent on more direct survival concerns).
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