"Melvin's Progression" - published in MetaStellar

[ArchangelIdiotis]

https://www.metastellar.com/fiction/mel ... ogression/

I consider this short story relevant to occultism because there is this concept within magical and mystical circles of a thought form, an object of faith and worship, coming to life on the astral plane. I don't think I believe that actually happens, but it is a common opinion that it does amongst diverse sorcerous folk.

[Cerber]

..I don't think I believe that actually happens..

How come?
Just a little curious of the reasoning behind the suspicion and disbelief, because it's not that common to see someone exploring occult, yet dismissing that aspect, considering that being one of the cornerstone of the occult "arts & sciences".

[ArchangelIdiotis]

I just mean I don't believe in astral entities that exist as sentient beings just because people have faith in their existence.

edit: it doesn't seem plausible to me because I cannot think of a causal process that could make it work.

[Amor]

... I cannot think of a causal process that could make it work.

I would prefer a larger sample.

Even then I am not sure that human thinking is an accurate test of what is real

[Cerber]

I just mean I don't believe in astral entities that exist as sentient beings just because people have faith in their existence.

edit: it doesn't seem plausible to me because I cannot think of a causal process that could make it work.

Are you able to think of a causal process for anything else in occult, which would make that something else to work?

[Amor]

...this concept within magical and mystical circles of a thought form, an object of faith and worship, coming to life on the astral plane. ...

My experience is that The Source of All is the life force within every substance on every plane within Existence

Perhaps it is a question of what qualities of life force, intent and karma are present within a pebble, within a thoughtform and within a galaxy.

[ArchangelIdiotis]

I just mean I don't believe in astral entities that exist as sentient beings just because people have faith in their existence.

edit: it doesn't seem plausible to me because I cannot think of a causal process that could make it work.

Are you able to think of a causal process for anything else in occult, which would make that something else to work?

(A) Yes. I am not able to prove whether those causal processes are actually what happens, but I am able to come up with processes that could explain how certain occult phenomenon works.

the double slit experiment has been utilized by speculative people to postulate an observer-created theory of existence. This is difficult to debunk or non debunkable.

In the original experiment, the results changed according to what the observer expected to happen, according to whether or not the observer was watching. My theory as to why is that the particles being observed are so small, when the human mind thinks about them, the smallness of the thought form itself interacts with the particles, and they influence each other because of how small they both are.

This could help explain telepathy: two separate minds vibrate at a similar level of smallness and intensity, so the particles of the thought form can interact.

Some of astral travel could be explained by that the mind interacts with and maps out other vibrational patterns, making it possible to "travel" to distant events.

Prophecy may be explained by that once a significant chunk of what is happening now is perceived, an extremely accurate inference may be made forwards or backwards because time is deterministic.

[Amor]

...

the double slit experiment has been utilized by speculative people to postulate an observer-created theory of existence. This is difficult to debunk or non debunkable....

Unfortunately the double slit experiment works when the observer is a machine.

[Amor]

...
Some of astral travel could be explained by that the mind interacts with and maps out other vibrational patterns, making it possible to "travel" to distant events....

The astral plane is not the same as the mental plane - thus, astral elementals are not the same as mental elementals

Mental elementals are good at time travel. Astral elementals seem to have trouble with that

[ArchangelIdiotis]

...

the double slit experiment has been utilized by speculative people to postulate an observer-created theory of existence. This is difficult to debunk or non debunkable....

Unfortunately the double slit experiment works when the observer is a machine.

I would argue that even then, someone somewhere is thinking about the experiment, so their thoughts could still be interacting with the particles. Without a human observer, there would be no experiment. The human in this instance probably just isn't directly looking.

[Amor]

... Without a human observer, there would be no experiment. The human in this instance probably just isn't directly looking.

That is what I was taught by the priests: humans are the only intelligent species in existence.

There was no proof offered.

What if occult/hidden species were intelligent?

What if such species bred humans for their own experiments? There are certainly a lot of ancient and ethnic accounts supporting that proposition. Accounts of ufo abductions followed by transient/phantom pregnancies may be relevant.

In my view, beliefs without experiment are very close to religious.

[ArchangelIdiotis]

without a sentient observer, then

[Amor]

without a sentient observer, then

A large number of people talk to their vehicles.

My Mazda is very forceful in emotionally refusing a change of transmission fluid.

If The Source of All permeates all of Existence, is there any object that has no sentiency?

To be fair, some human manufactures are very low on the sentiency scale.

On the other hand, some decades ago, the Mazda chief engineer was reported as saying that they were building emotional vehicles on purpose

A neighbor complained that her house is very fussy about placement of furniture. I have the same problem in my house. The issue is ancient, with much Feng Shui analysis of house arrangements

I have yet to find any part of Existence that is not sentient

[Cerber]

(A) Yes. I am not able to prove whether those causal processes are actually what happens, but I am able to come up with processes that could explain how certain occult phenomenon works.

the double slit experiment has been utilized by speculative people to postulate an observer-created theory of existence. This is difficult to debunk or non debunkable.

In the original experiment, the results changed according to what the observer expected to happen, according to whether or not the observer was watching. My theory as to why is that the particles being observed are so small, when the human mind thinks about them, the smallness of the thought form itself interacts with the particles, and they influence each other because of how small they both are.

This could help explain telepathy: two separate minds vibrate at a similar level of smallness and intensity, so the particles of the thought form can interact.

Some of astral travel could be explained by that the mind interacts with and maps out other vibrational patterns, making it possible to "travel" to distant events.

Prophecy may be explained by that once a significant chunk of what is happening now is perceived, an extremely accurate inference may be made forwards or backwards because time is deterministic.

Fair enough.

Some things can be difficult to "explain" (or to come up with some "plausible causal processes") having nothing at all to go by. A bit easier if one is able to observe it, and it makes things easier further if multiple different observers are able to observe the same thing. Sometimes when more than 2 eyes sees the same thing looking at the same spot, even if you can't come with reasonable "causal processes", you have the luxury to just forgo all "rational thought", all attempts to explain causes and workings behind the thing, and simply accept it as a dogma, dogma of A+B=C and just move on.
A degree-less engineers can often built, fix and maintain very complex machines, without having in-dept academic knowledge of all individual parts and laws governing each element.

How about some other creative occult concepts, ie. "Servitors", "Personal Astral Temple"? Many concepts and practices related to "creation" share common fundamentals of "quantum (meta)physics" (made up words, but will do for now). Have you tried to come up with any "plausible causal process" for any of those yet? Or all those fall within the same circle of improbability for the time being?

[ArchangelIdiotis]

Maybe it's intuition... my intuition tells me sentient life forms don't manifest just because someone has faith that they will.

My intuition could be wrong, but I don't have any reason to doubt it.

"Servitors" - if that means spirits that exist on the astral plane, and serve the summoner, all that needs to exist is a mechanism for sentient beings to astral travel before and/or after death. The brain may generate a subtle mind that exists as an interaction of energy, such that it does not die with the physical body. So long as the astral plane exists, sentient life forms abide there.

"Personal Astral Temple" - I suspect it takes a strong imagination to build, & in some cases may not last when it isn't being imagined, consciously or subconsciously. The thought form of the occultist occupying astral space.

[Cerber]

"Servitors" - if that means spirits that exist on the astral plane, and serve the summoner, all that needs to exist is a mechanism for sentient beings to astral travel before and/or after death. The brain may generate a subtle mind that exists as an interaction of energy, such that it does not die with the physical body. So long as the astral plane exists, sentient life forms abide there.

Generally (according to the lore"), the moment you start seeing "servitor" as a "spirit" - it kind of stops being servitor (just some purely mechanical construct, a program) and becomes something else.

"Personal Astral Temple" - I suspect it takes a strong imagination to build, & in some cases may not last when it isn't being imagined, consciously or subconsciously. The thought form of the occultist occupying astral space.

Sure, but all existence (physical universe and all the rest) are a lot like some computer simulation (in some vague way), every bit of it is governed by certain rules and laws, many rules can have exceptions, some are quite flexible if you apply enough pressure, and then others can be simply broken if we're persistent enough, so where one may see an impenetrable wall, somebody else may see it as just a challenge to overcome, or a puzzle to be solved.

"Imaginary places" do like to decay, those are the rules. Most have little interest in it, so they just leave it at that realization, but those few who have deeper interest in it, eventually start asking the followup questions, questions about how to work around, break or bend those rules governing it.

Maybe it's intuition... my intuition tells me sentient life forms don't manifest just because someone has faith that they will.
My intuition could be wrong, but I don't have any reason to doubt it.

What's "wrong" and what's "right" is very subjective. Ultimately no one can tell us what reality really is like, we have to see it for ourselves, but for that we need to take a leap of fate, and most of the time it's going to be a big one, the kind which would seem impossible - but only if we really need to, because we can have perfectly fine (usually even a lot better) experience of life, without all the extra complications and hassles that comes after peaking behind that veil.
It's far more practical not to, because the boundaries aren't clearly marked, and once we cross the "event horizon" it becomes one way trip.