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Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:43 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Samhain

I certainly agree that factory farming is cruel, destructive and contrary to the Pagan way of looking at things. So is large scale crop farming - even though most people are incapable of tuning into plants sufficiently to understand this, they do suffer from modern farming techniques.

But most of the world's populations have traditionally been consumers of either meat or seafood. IMO, religious taboos against meat eating are usually created as a result of population pressures.

Most members of of current vegetarian populations, such as those in India, normally consume dairy products, so they're not completely vegan. However, it's easier for them to become healthy vegans because their ancestors generally haven't been meat eaters in a long time, and as a result they've developed the necessary emzymes to absorb B-12 from plant matter. I've read scientific material suggesting that, although a certain percentage of meat eating populations are able to synthesize B-12 from vegetable matter, most can't. It apparently takes about 500 years of not eating meat for those emzymes to become common in populations. So if the entire population of North America, for example, were to become vegan tomorrow, some would be fine but many of us would develop anemia, regardless of how carefully we ate.

For Europeans and those of us who are of European descent, it's important to remember that, except for fishing communities, our ancestors were meat eaters. Herding always went hand in hand with crop farming in Europe and North America until the advent of chemical fertilizers in the 20th century because you can't raise crops organically without animal waste. It always makes me laugh when vegan Neo-Pagans feel especially virtuous about the fact that they're not only vegans but eaters of organic veggies. They don't seem to understand that the farmer who grew their organic carrots also sells organically raised beef and/or lamb to a butcher shop. So, by eating organically, they're eating plants grown in animal shit. Not that that isn't healthier than eating plants grown with the help of chemical fertilizers, but it doesn't make the organic population less involved in "exploiting" animals, unless you agree that healthy, small scale raising of livestock isn't explotation.

It's true that our ancestors wouldn't have sat down to a steak every night. And our Pagan ancestors of 2000 years ago would have been horrified at the thought of eating meat from an animal that hadn't been ritually sacrificed. They would have seen such meat as unclean. So we think differently about some subjects than they did.

IMO, the real culprits are overpopulation and excessive concentration of power in the hands of large corporations. All things point to the idea that the human species is driving itself toward extinction at a very rapid rate, and we seem to be messing things up for a lot of other species in the process. That's why I think that the replacement dominant species will probably be some sort of insect, rather than another mammal.

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:28 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Samhain

Speaking of fluffy vegetarians, I recently had an amusing conversation with a young urban vegan/Pagan, in which I pointed out that if she didn't want domestic animals to be "exploited" by people, she was arguing that they should be exterminated, since many types of domestic animals couldn't survive in the wild, and there's increasingly less wild space for them in most parts of the world anyway. She replied that forbidding farmers to exploit animals didn't mean that a farmer couldn't provide his or her livestock with a safe, healthy, free range environment. Apparently, she had no notion that raising livestock is a means of earning a living. I'm not suggesting that all vegans are that clueless, but the fluffy type does exist. They can usually be found in close proximity to yoga studios and health food stores.

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:37 am
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Hangatyr 13

[QUOTE=Trapezoid]Because we have this crop of meat available to us I feel there is no need for hunting. Hunting is a useless anachronism. We don't need to go out and shoot deer when we can walk down to our corner grocery store and buy a steak or pork chops.[/QUOTE]I disagree. Hunting is just as instictive to humans as fucking, and just like sex, the ability to do it often and do it well is reliant on skill (and sometimes, equipment :lol: ).

The "we don't need hunting because we have grocery stores" mentality is the kind of mentality that is dependant on modern society. What happens when society breaks down, and our "societal logistics" are no longer existant? Look at what has happened in the past in places like North Korea. There was famine in the cities and no one knew how to take care of themselves, so they starved. Do you know what I'd do if that were me? I'd move to the country and feed myself on what the Earth provides me.

Hunting is also a means of population control where I'm from (a community in North Carolina called "Back Swamp"). Deer running in the road are a hazard for drivers, and any excess of herbavores can endanger crops. One of the reason deer are so disporportionately numerous in rural areas is because when we settle in a place, we generally kill off animals in the area that pose a direct threat to us, like wolves, mountian lions, bobcats, and bears. These also happen to be preditors that prey on deer and other animals. It's up to us to right that balance.

One thing that our modern society has done to us is it has put up a barrier between ourselves and nature. Many of us can't stand to see things suffer and die, even if it is for our own benifite. The reason for this is we just don't see that kind of thing much any more. It all happens behind closed doors. Some people have taken their blindness-born compassion to it's "logical" conclusion and now protest any taking of life whether it's in hunting, farming, law enforcement, or war.

Well, that's about all I have to say about that.

In Frith.

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:12 am
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: BrokenIris

Well....


My opinion...again.....lol

I eat meat, mostly deer and chickens. I don't eat beef because for some reason it hurts my stomach. If it was raised like it should be, hand slaughtered and dressed out, I think it would not bother me as much. I eat pork when I help my Amish friend kill, clean and dress one out. He shares the meat with me for helping. And I help his wife render the lard and use it. I make my own sausage. I eat deer because, they are free, not full of antibiotics and chemicals and other unidentifiables and I love the taste. To ME, there is nothing better than a deer roast I have cooked all day in a dutch oven in a pit in my backyard with fresh carrots, taters, onions, garlic and greenbeans thrown in with fresh herbs from the garden. Bury it in the ground all day, dig it up in the evening, bake a pan of cornbread and call it supper. I make jerkey and sausage out of deer as well.

I raise the chickens, I like baked chicken and well.....I like everything about chickens....if they had lips I'd probably eat them too. I will eat a turtle once in awhile if I catch one out of my pond, I eat crawdads when I have time to go to the creek and catch me some, I like rattlesnake if it is cooked right, I have eaten possum, coon, bear, squirrel, rabbit and more. The only time I wont eat meat is, when it comes from the store. My personal taste I guess.....cos to me....it dont taste right and makes my stomach hurt for days. None a them other meats do that to me.

So....I eat meat, I love meat, I will eat about any kind of wild meat, I'd even eat my dog if I had to. If it is dead...I'll usually eat it, no sense it letting a good hunk a meat lay there and rot. That just sounds stupid to me, and wasteful. The Spirit is long gone and would probably appreciate someone partaking of the exhausted host. IMO

Maybe it is a Tennessee thAng! LOL

Broken Iris

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:31 am
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: DropAndRiver

Since the main paradigm I am involved with is Hinduism, I try not to consume beef (although cows are merely emblematic of all life... being so passive and such lol; people assume that Hindus don't consume beef because the cows are their ancestors... which is not quite correct). The only times I really eat are when when I don't think about it (ie, I will order a Po'boy, and halfway through it remember that I'm not supposed to be eating beef lol).

In my opinion, the only reason people feel better about eating plants is that they don't cry or bleed when you kill them. We are not Producers, ergo we are stucking killing things to survive. Beef does make me sick to the stomach though...

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:58 am
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Samhain

[QUOTE=BrokenIris]
..............

I will eat a turtle once in awhile if I catch one out of my pond, I eat crawdads when I have time to go to the creek and catch me some, I like rattlesnake if it is cooked right, I have eaten possum, coon, bear, squirrel, rabbit and more. The only time I wont eat meat is, when it comes from the store. My personal taste I guess.....cos to me....it dont taste right and makes my stomach hurt for days. None a them other meats do that to me.

So....I eat meat, I love meat, I will eat about any kind of wild meat, I'd even eat my dog if I had to. If it is dead...I'll usually eat it, no sense it letting a good hunk a meat lay there and rot. That just sounds stupid to me, and wasteful. The Spirit is long gone and would probably appreciate someone partaking of the exhausted host. IMO

Maybe it is a Tennessee thAng! LOL

Broken Iris[/QUOTE]
Uh, yah. It probably is a Tenessee thing. Just don't invite any friends from the big city to dinner. They'd probably upchuck.

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:36 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: DropAndRiver

Have you ever had alligator, Broken? That really does taste like chicken.

I don't think eating from the wild is gross at all. I have eaten everything from alligator from an Asian candy made from dolphin and whale blubber (looked like pepperoni, tasted like a very old raisin).

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:38 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Samhain

I have nothing against the idea of eating wild animals, since the meat is likely to be much healthier than factory meat. And I love venison, rabbit and partridge. It's the idea of eating a dog, racoon, bear or rattlesnake that I personally find a bit odd. But I guess it's a cultural thing. I know that people around the world eat all kinds of things, and many people couldn't stomach the kind of food we're used to in this part of the world.

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:09 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: martin

"Most members of of current vegetarian populations, such as those in India, normally consume dairy products, so they're not completely vegan. However, it's easier for them to become healthy vegans because their ancestors generally haven't been meat eaters in a long time, and as a result they've developed the necessary emzymes to absorb B-12 from plant matter. I've read scientific material suggesting that, although a certain percentage of meat eating populations are able to synthesize B-12 from vegetable matter, most can't. It apparently takes about 500 years of not eating meat for those emzymes to become common in populations. So if the entire population of North America, for example, were to become vegan tomorrow, some would be fine but many of us would develop anemia, regardless of how carefully we ate."

Whilst vegetarians have no problems with B-12 (it's in all animal products except honey), it is true that for some vegans it is a problem. However, a lot of foods are now fortified with B12 (especially non-dairy milks, breakfast cereals etc) and it may also be taken in supplement form.

And as an interesting point about B12, there have been some suggestions that cooking animal foods, a peculariaty of humans, actually destroys the B12, and so meat should not be relied upon as a good source of B12 anyway!

FFFF
Martin

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:03 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: ~ Serenity ~

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitaminb12.asp
http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/2001/ ... arajan.htm

Vitamin B12 deficiency is not uncommon even among the meat eating population; I consume some animal products and have had a B12 problem all my life, as a result of a specific enzyme insufficiency which means I have difficulty absorbing B12 no matter how much I ingest from dietary sources. For years I had weekly injections, but current thinking suggests taking large oral doses daily - much larger than we had previously imagined - will correct deficiency in most cases (it has in mine, I take between 1 and 2000 mcg sublingually every day depending on alcohol consumption and stresslevels).
I've included an article here that can explain B12 in more detail. Nutrition is entirely about interaction and balance. Anyone who consumes a lot of alcohol, or lacks the intrinsic factor necessary to absorb B12 in the intestines , for example -can have a B12 deficiency; vegetarianism - and especially veganism - is one risk, but there are many others.

feranaja

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:40 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: BrokenIris

[QUOTE=Samhain]Uh, yah. It probably is a Tenessee thing. Just don't invite any friends from the big city to dinner. They'd probably upchuck.[/QUOTE]
I can't blame Tennessee for it actually. Not everyone here eats like I do, most of them prefer the bloated antibacterial steriod enhanced meat from the store. However, I teach Wilderness Survival Skills and therefore have tasted about anything. Don't have to worry about folks upchucking their supper though, folks aint invited to my home much, I am stingy with my meat. And if someone comes to my home uninvited.....they'd likely end up in the freezer. Like I said, no use wasting meat and my bumper sticker says, "save a dog, eat a trespasser"

[QUOTE=DropAndRiver]Have you ever had alligator, Broken? That really does taste like chicken.[/QUOTE]
I did in Jacksonville a few times, had squid and shark too. And a few things I did not know what they were, I think one was octopus or something. Rattlesnake tastes a lot like gator. Bear is kind of greasy like a wold hog or possum. possum makes good gravy though. I could stomach anything, I have eaten grub worms.

This thread is making me hungry. Samhain.....wanna come fer supper??????

Broken Iris

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:51 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Samhain

[QUOTE=BrokenIris]

This thread is making me hungry. Samhain.....wanna come fer supper??????

Broken Iris[/QUOTE]
Uh, no thanks. It would be a bit far for me to travel anyway.

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:07 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: frotish_mewn
The difference between meat-eaters and vegetarians is that meat-eaters don't care whether or not you eat meat.
How cliche and ignorant. Not all non-meat eaters care what other people eat. I'm vegan and only care what goes into my body and my daughter's body. Right now I'm dating a meat-eater. I've never told her, or implied in any way, that I'm uncomfortable with her eating meat in front of me. I don't care, because it's not my choice.

When I did eat meat, I was willing to try anything. I also loved my meat very rare and sometimes raw (not just sushi). I've had, and enjoyed (mostly), tripe, kidneys, pig's ears, blood sausage (yum!), cow tongue (dry and grainy), turtle, duck, alligator, reindeer, rattlesnake, octopus, conch snail, cuttlefish, shark, a couple of ants, aphids (this was after going vegan. i just didn't feel like cleaning off my veggies that day), hearts (turkey and cow), roe, eel... I'm still curious about trying insects. I was a little disappointed when the cicadas didn't come to my area. Oh, I've also eaten human placenta.

As for meat-eaters, I feel better when they raise or hunt their own animals. I'm very against commonly accepted modern practices. I know it's not exactly an easy thing to do in our modern societies, but I'd rather the animals have somewhat a free existence (movement, air, sun...) before they're killed.

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 am
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: AngryGeekGirl

My choice to stop eating meat has been a result of all the health concerns that have come up in recent years. What with mad cow now jumping from cows to goats (case in Europe I believe), the widespread use of hormones and steroids in factory farms and the unsanitary practices in most slaughter plants, I just think the risk is far to great. People talk about the "tradition" of meat-eating and I'm sure my forefathers ate meat. I also know they either raised it themselves and slaughtered it as well, or hunted it themselves. They knew exactly what had happened to that animal and what it had eaten. And they were willing to field-dress their own deer too. It wasn't a life for the squeamish that's for sure. The thing is, I've met very few vocial meat-eaters who could hold down their lunch after going out hunting with my dad and watching him feild-dress one deer. Buying meat at a grocery where its wrapped in plastic it is easy to forget that it once was a living creature. Out hunting, you don't.

Just the prespective of one vegeterian country girl for you.

JDG

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:58 am
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: shinotenshi

I eat meat. I've always eaten meat. I will always eat meat. Why? Because I'm allergic to most other sources of protein and I don't like the taste and/or texture of the rest.

It's a good way to get out of eating tofu which I hate. Mom snuck it into the food in hopes of getting more protein into my nephew, (1 2/3 years old at the time) who, for unknown reasons, doesn't eat much if any meat. I broke into horrible hives that lasted three days before they finally faided.

The meats I won't eat are for taste or texture reasons like pork. Or conditions of the animal like lobster is boiled alive and I can't think of anything else when I look at lobster dishes.

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:18 am
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: starlore

i have long been a meat eater. I decided i would attempt to go without eating meat. I did this 3 times and all 3 times i wound up going back to meat for the iron content. Nuts did not supply what was necessary. And as for fish i've never been very fond of it so my primary meats are chicken and beef. The last time i cut back on my content of red meat was when i noticed it was making me so sick that i couldn't breathe (but i was eating it as close to rare as i possibly could, which, while it solved blood cravings for a while, it did more harm than good so i gradually switched to more chicken).

I don't see a problem with consuming meat - unfortunately i think animals are often mistreated in the ways that they are killed and processed. Big difference between hunting them and farming them but there are luxuries some of us can't afford. We go to the store and its there for us to buy so we buy it. My major issue with this concept is that i feel if the animal is used up and none of it goes to waste.. then its fine.

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:48 am
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Uncle Fritz

I was a vegetarian, but have gone back to eating meat. In part because in Nor Cal there are "good" sources of organic, humanely raised meat, fish & poultry.

Saw the following story at the Guardian, and immediately thought of this discussion:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/food/Story/0, ... .html?=rss

If I had to, I could definitely give up meat, but not eggs or dairy.

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:17 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Sidhe
Good point. Also many plants and fruits are designed to be eaten as this is their main means of dispersing the seeds and reproducing.
{STORY TIME}

---One hot summers afternoon while the family, extended family and many friends gathered at my grandmothers place, my uncle braged about his prize tomatos... After getting some and cutting them open for all to partake of, my little cousins shunned his tomatos, saying they had bigger, better, juicier and sweeter tomatos of their own... Of course everyone wondered what they were talking about, being early-mid summer, my uncles were quite big...
The kids left briefly and returned with the bigest, ripest tomatos I'd ever seen... After cutting them open, everyone but myself and little sister sampled them, all proclaimed that they were fantasic!!!
After they made a few trips off behind the house to get more, my uncle had to ask where in the world they were getting them from... Without hesitation the kids said
{ from back by that ditch, by the back pond}
No one spoke, everyone looked as if they'd pass out, the back ditch/pond was the sewer run off...
They took everyone back to look, tomatos were growing up all over the place and loaded with big ripe fruits... The kids proudly stated that they never planted a one of um, they just grew up all by themselves!!!
{NOW THATS "dispersing the seeds and reproducing"}
heheheeee!

---I eat meat, always have except for a one year attempt at being a veger, that year made me sick, weak, and dizzy...
Took vitamins, tried to eat well and did my best with full protiens and all that, still made me ill...
The night after that long year was over, I went out for a mega rare T-bone and was feeling better by the 1/2 way point...
I think some people are just more inclined to eat meat than other people are, and to differant degrees there of just like animals...
Some critters eat mostly fish and berries, roots... Others eat everything from fish-rabbits, and anything inbetween, including fruits so on... While others are happy to nibble away all day on nothing but grasses, grains ect...
People are no differant, my dad eats mostly meat, always has, with only a tiny bit of grain... He's 76yrs old and in pretty good health for an old guy, where if I ate that much meat I'd feel like hell... Others are fine with very little to no meat at all, like deer...
I lean towards trying to get meals rounded out and balanced up, but every once in a while I can't be forced into eating a vegy, all I want is meat... Figure if I want it that bad, I must need it.....
Just because we're human dosn't mean we're not animals, I just happen to be more of a Bear , than a Deer is all...

~~~SIDHE~~

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:44 am
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: hazylunarrain

I for one will eat anything that tastes good! I think (if you really think about it) that no matter what you eat, something has to die. I mean... If you eat a t-bone, a cow dies. But if you eat a potato, the potatoe dies... Isn't life LIFE? Whether animal or vegatable?

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:36 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: frotish_mewn
I think (if you really think about it) that no matter what you eat, something has to die. I mean... If you eat a t-bone, a cow dies. But if you eat a potato, the potatoe dies... Isn't life LIFE? Whether animal or vegatable?

True, but when you eat meat, there is much more death involved than the animal. There's also all the plant matter that the animal had to eat to produce that bit of flesh. In the view of food and resources, meat is inefficiently produced. Much used to produce a little. That's not an argument against eating meat, just against current methods of raising animals for food and the importance placed on meat in the diet.

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:37 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: hazylunarrain

True, but you also have to take into consideration that meat utilizes a great deal less bodily resources and energy to digest. On the other hand.. It adds much more toxins and harmful fats to the system. What a paradox! lol

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:35 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Samhain

Like the current Dalai Lama, I eat meat for health reasons. Unlike the current Dalai Lama, I don't encourage people to become vegetarians. I think that everyone should make up their own minds about it. But I do wish that I had a safer source of food (both plant and animal) than I do currently. Maybe it's time to move back to the country.

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:03 am
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: frotish_mewn
meat utilizes a great deal less bodily resources and energy to digest
That seems contrary to everything I've read. Do you have any sources that back this up?
I think that everyone should make up their own minds about it.
I completely agree with that.

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:08 am
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: erisdoe

I get my b-12 from Rock Star energy drinks.

No vegetarian I know really cares that much about what other people eat (except in a general sort of way at times.)

Another thing that I do not really care about is what my ancestors ate. I honestly do not understand why I ought to care about something like that. Just like, as my mother often pointed out, I shouldn't jump off a bridge just because everyone else is doing it, I would not engage in something that I find unpleasant just because my ancestors did.

Pagans, Meat, and the Earth

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:28 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: FireJasmine

I eat meat because I'm a carnivore and proud of it.