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Original post: Venefica

It do not necessary suck to be the victim, many vampires have willing donors, or feed so little of a person that they do not notice it, and many feed of crowds so the each person lose very little or just take in excess energy during a concert or some such function. Vampirism do not need to have a victim.

Original post: Bored Wizard

[QUOTE=Venefica]It do not necessary suck to be the victim, many vampires have willing donors, or feed so little of a person that they do not notice it, and many feed of crowds so the each person lose very little or just take in excess energy during a concert or some such function. Vampirism do not need to have a victim.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the practice of Vampirism can be as you say - And there are even examples of Vampirism being used in a, shall we say, constructive way. I just generalized it in such "negative" or "darwinist" way because it can't be fully considered an "inofensive" practice: There are just too many variables for the risks to be considered non-existant.

Even if the "victim" is willing, or just a little bit is taken from a great amount of "victims", there is no way to be sure it wasn't "just enought" as to diminish their current potential to succesfully face a situation about to happen. That's a sad fact of being part of a complex system, and one a mage should never forget about. The lake, the stones, the ripples - Surely you know all that already. And since the mage is fucking with the one variable that, more or less, make all the other variables work the ripples can get very ugly, very fast. And since we are talking of the one variable that makes all the other variables work, it is so subtle the magician himself many times does not even see his own hand in the events that follow.

That doesn't mean i am against this technique - It was the first one i actually "mastered" to a certain degree, and i abuse it since i am the very model of the retired, thin and pale, physically weak, unhealthy wizard. Just to go for a walk translates in a whole lot of people getting headaches, sleeping in class, and being in a sour mood for the entire day. I just believe one must never act without taking a long look at the ugly side of what he is doing - And then do it anyway, if so he desires or the situation so demans.

Original post: Venefica

Even if the "victim" is willing, or just a little bit is taken from a great amount of "victims", there is no way to be sure it wasn't "just enought" as to diminish their current potential to succesfully face a situation about to happen.

If one is going to think like this then you can not even go outside, anything you do have the potential to affect somone negative and be the last drop. Seeing you happy or sad can affect someone's mood, or you stopping somone to ask for the time can make them a few moments late so they get hit by a car they otherwise would avoid.

Original post: Artur Machen

It is quite interesting discussion, but there is lot of doubts.

I hevent read "Setian Bible", but i supose that behind this work states the same intention that Szandor LaVey had when he published "Satanic Bible". He stated that he usues the word satan, because he likes to, not because he believes in satan as real entity. This is similiar. Someone calls himself a vampire, writes a book and then founds a organisation.society/order. Of course the word vampire is very medial, even though role that vampires played in collective unconcious, sterotypes etc.

The historical data is lacking here. Thats a fact, that werent neglected.

I think that standing in defense of "vampire soul" is caused by your emotional devotion to people that believed in it. Tell me then : what are the qualities of a vampire soul. How i can check if someone who claimes that is possed/ha s a vampire soul really has it ?

The question of vampirism, i think, schould be viewed as a moral problem also. I dont mean here to use philosphical sysems to choose between right and wrong ontologies, good and bad as values, but the measurement schould be PAIN.

If someone takes from somebody energy, then causes disturbance in energetic centers. Some people can handle this and know techniques to gain energy, heal themselves, the other not...

Vampire belivers say that is an authorized magickal life path ! (sic!) By whom ? Its vulgar in fundaments. Someone would say he has a "soul of a theft" and stel you phone or money ? That is something different from energetic/emotonal/sang vampirism ? Because it is on subtle level ? if i whisper to someones ear that he is a shit it dosent make me more elegant, if i wouold scream this in his face.

Im not writing this to convince someone to throw away vampire beliefs, but to say that this is highly speculative system, nor offend anyone. But making such a threads you are making harm to people convincing them that there arent human etc. Give me proofs, magical proffs will do. Tell me how can i meditate, which rituals must be made, to experince being a vampiresoul.

By the way. There were many voices, that vampirism is a state of soul, that you can not remove the lacks of energy. In some cases agree, when someone has contaminating his enrgetic systems, he is a energetic junkie. making of it ideology and calling elite is sad. Moast of shortened supplies od energ can be fullfilled by working on our energtic systems. In every mistical tradition there are some. you an get energy form cosmos, trees, rituals, meditation, visualization. Try this before you consider yourselfs as "forever energetically incomlete vampire souls".

Original post: EtuMalku

[QUOTE=Venefica;365994]It do not necessary suck to be the victim, many vampires have willing donors, or feed so little of a person that they do not notice it, and many feed of crowds so the each person lose very little or just take in excess energy during a concert or some such function. Vampirism do not need to have a victim.[/QUOTE]
Vampires that learn how to 'deep feed' will actually unblock energy blockages and stale dormant energy from the donor, which is quite beneficial for both parties.

Artur Machen: if you are speaking about the 'Asetian Bible'? You are way way off base. If you did mean 'Setian Bible' I am unaware of the existence of one, though it wouldn't surprise me.

Original post: Kath_

[QUOTE=EtuMalku;367671]Vampires that learn how to 'deep feed' will actually unblock energy blockages and stale dormant energy from the donor, which is quite beneficial for both parties.[/QUOTE]
true dat

Original post: Venefica

The question of vampirism, i think, schould be viewed as a moral problem also. I dont mean here to use philosphical sysems to choose between right and wrong ontologies, good and bad as values, but the measurement schould be PAIN.

So if you make a product I need. Let us say you create beautiful ritual daggers and I that am afraid of fire is not so good with metal work, so you sell me your knife. You have put time and Energy into creating the dagger, and I take it from you and give you money, is this wrong? No this is a basic exchange of goods, and for most vampires this is how they feed, from willing donors that get something in return from the feeding. Another example would be this, my man is so good with electronics that often he go to the local dump where pepole toss out electronics they no longer want, take the discarded pieces and either use them for part or fix them so they work, often it is little wrong with them to save some superficial flaw or them being an to old model. Is my man doing something wrong in making a use of what others have thrown out as waste? No off course not, and this is also how many vampires feed, we go to crowded areas and feed of the excess Energy that the crowd emits, or take so very, very little from a person that nothing is ever felt.

I am not saying there are not many vampires that hurt pepole I am saying it do not have to be a morally wrong thing, it do not have to have victims, it do not have to cause pain, and with most sensible pepole that practice vampirism it do not do that either.

If someone takes from somebody energy, then causes disturbance in energetic centers. Some people can handle this and know techniques to gain energy, heal themselves, the other not...

We all take from, give to and affect each other's Energy systems all the time, it is part of one human being interacting with another. No one is harmed by it.

Vampire belivers say that is an authorized magickal life path ! (sic!) By whom ?

Who authorize magickal paths? Is there like this magick minister I have not heard of yet that give paths his official stamp of approval?

What authorize a magickal path is whatever or not a practitioner find it useful. If even one magician use said path and find it useful, then it is a authorized magickal path, that includes vampirism. Though no magickal path is authorized for it to be that there have to be an authority on magick and there is none, each and every one of us have to authorize our own paths, for our self.

Original post: Erin Sirensong

Thank you SO much for saying this, Ice Flower. On another forum I am a member of, I tried to mention this and I was immediately told that I was delusional. Yes, there are some people who see psy-vampires lurking in every shadow, and that is entirely absurd. No, I am not one of those people. Yes, I met one. She was in my coven and orchestrated these ridiculous and destructive power plays. She manipulated one dear friend of mine, creating a rift between him and another coven member that has still not entirely healed. She drained me nearly to the point of collapse. I was really troubled and sought advice from others on the forum I mentioned, but of course I was portrayed as the antagonist. I don't think that is right or just. However, this is a topic that seems to send people into a tizzy for whatever reason. I'm really glad that there are some people who can talk about it sensibly.

In response to you're description of the behavior of many psy-vampires, Ice Flower, I have to completely agree. There are, of course, a few exceptions, people who only take as much as they need and never drain others entirely, but for the most part, I have found that that sort of problem corresponds directly to immature and/or dependent, drama-queen behavior. For these people, there always needs to be a scandal or a conflict. Moreover, in these conflicts, they are always the victim, the only voice of justice and reason in an environment of tyranny and oppression. Certainly, not every person who behaves like that is a psy-vampire, very far from it, in fact, but the correlation is there.

Original post: Venefica

Very often psy vampires do not know what they are doing and one just drain everyone around. It is unfortunate but not intended harm most of the time, when these pepole find out what they are doing and gain some training they usually never harm anyone again.

Original post: Master 27

Vampires suck.

Original post: Venefica

In so many ways. I am sure you would like some of them.

Original post: Master 27

Hey!

That's supposed to be a secret! :evil:

Original post: Bored Wizard

No one did the "And Swallow" joke, yet? I am somewhat disappointed.

[edit]

Oh, and...

If one is going to think like this then you can not even go outside, anything you do have the potential to affect somone negative and be the last drop. Seeing you happy or sad can affect someone's mood, or you stopping somone to ask for the time can make them a few moments late so they get hit by a car they otherwise would avoid.

You are pretty much right about that. The effect such understanding is going to have on the individual, then, depends on him. I didn't say one should do nothing because he could hurt someone. I only say one must always remember anything he does, specially when dealing with Magick, can and, possibly, WILL hurt someone. And then live with it.

For a more detailed explanation: Yes, even seeing me happy or sad can affect someone's mood. That change can turn in a chain reaction that end with him or her under a big truck's wheel. There was nothing i could have done - But i still must bear that responsability.

It is mostly a philosophical standpoint, so you are free to prefer a diferent one. I just believe the LHP, wich i in some measure "embrace" more by accident than will, is a lot about responsability and the tribunal you subject yourself to. And i believe most people are only able to live with themselves because they convince themselves "There was nothing i could have done" equals "It is not my fault." It is their fault, even if it was outside their power or knowledge to notice it in time or change it. More so with Magicians, who are playing with a subtler, primal level of reality that has the potential for some really awful ripples.

Sorry if i explained myself wrongly. English and myself are not always in good terms.

Original post: Kath_

that's pretty well put Bored Wizard.



I've kinda avoided this thread, seemed like the sort of thing which might get me posting huge long responses with lots of quotes. heh

so, sparing myself the muddling through 22 pages of posts and pulling my hair out... what's the consensus here?

Original post: EtuMalku

I would say that overall, most are tired of the stereotyped Hollywood vampire archetype.

Original post: Kath_

[QUOTE=EtuMalku;368775]I would say that overall, most are tired of the stereotyped Hollywood vampire archetype.[/QUOTE]

well, the 'impeccable sense of style' part is true at least :p
and yeah, its not garlic which drives me away, asparagus on the other hand would be quite effective.



sorry, goofy mood this morning

Original post: Kath_

without any idea if it's already been said... i'd like to put something forward about the definition of 'psi vamps'.

the trouble in discussing them, is that there is not a common consensus on the definition of the term.

the differences of opinion, regarding what exactly a psi vamp 'is' seems to mainly fall into a handful of axis, in each of which there being 2 possible views.

the most important axis I think are these :
- consciously feeds /vs/ unconsciously feeds (pre-'awakened')

- uses energy manipulation (even unconsciously) to feed /vs/ aggravates people in some manner to feed on what is shed.

- moral intent (unconscious or 'conscious management') /vs/ amoral intent (always conscious - predatory)

- actually *needs* the energy /vs/ *wants* or is addicted to the energy

depending on how one views psi vamps, along these axis alone, we could end up discussing up to 16 different types of person, all under the same label. and arguing into the wee hours, etc. arriving sometimes at 22 pages of 'semantic' discord.

just a thought
Kath

Original post: EtuMalku

I was taught there is no difference between psychic vampires and sanguinarians. It is a matter of preference, the end result being the removal of prana to replenish a depleting subtle system.

Original post: Kath_

i wasn't thinking of sangs in my post, but pointing out that there are at least 16 fundamentally different concepts of what exactly a psi vamp 'is'.

which is where much of the arguing is born.

Original post: shadow flame

[QUOTE=Kath_;368746]so, sparing myself the muddling through 22 pages of posts and pulling my hair out... what's the consensus here?[/QUOTE]
that asetian system is cool although people vehemently disagree with some labels from it?

Original post: EtuMalku

We are not talking about Asetians here

Original post: shadow flame

yeah but we were talking about them some time ago XD

Original post: spiderborn

To those with the courage to explore, test and discover for themselves, please see the links in my signature, excepting my blog link.

Original post: Venefica

We are not talking about Asetians here

I believed we where talking about vampires in general, that would include the Asetians would it not?

You are pretty much right about that. The effect such understanding is going to have on the individual, then, depends on him. I didn't say one should do nothing because he could hurt someone. I only say one must always remember anything he does, specially when dealing with Magick, can and, possibly, WILL hurt someone. And then live with it.

I do not kill myself so children in Africa can have my money, I live well knowing that I could have sent a child to school or given a family a house for the money the computer I write this on cost. And it do not bother me. If one is going to be concerned about everyone that might, possibly perhaps be harmed by one's actions, then well that is a recipe for depression is it not. I worry about those I affect directly, and for my friends and family and for the rest, I just do not care. I do not see it as my responsibility if somone I ask for the time, get one second late, so the porter is three seconds late so the valet get someone's car five seconds later than usually and that leads to somone ending up in a car accident. It is not my responsibility and it is not my fault. If I can not anticipate such a reaction, and would have no way of knowing what action would prevent it, then to assume responsibility for that is just, and I mean no offense, but it is completely ridiculous.

In fact thinking like this eliminate the concept of responsibility, as if the starter of a causal chain is responsible for all results of that chain then whoever created this world is responsible for everything happening, good or bad.

I would say that overall, most are tired of the stereotyped Hollywood vampire archetype.

I like the Hollywood vampire, handsome, cool magickal powers, live forever, yeah, they are cool. I wish they where real. I would love to meet one.

Original post: EtuMalku

[QUOTE=Venefica;369885]I believed we where talking about vampires in general, that would include the Asetians would it not?



I do not kill myself so children in Africa can have my money, I live well knowing that I could have sent a child to school or given a family a house for the money the computer I write this on cost. And it do not bother me. If one is going to be concerned about everyone that might, possibly perhaps be harmed by one's actions, then well that is a recipe for depression is it not. I worry about those I affect directly, and for my friends and family and for the rest, I just do not care. I do not see it as my responsibility if somone I ask for the time, get one second late, so the porter is three seconds late so the valet get someone's car five seconds later than usually and that leads to somone ending up in a car accident. It is not my responsibility and it is not my fault. If I can not anticipate such a reaction, and would have no way of knowing what action would prevent it, then to assume responsibility for that is just, and I mean no offense, but it is completely ridiculous.

In fact thinking like this eliminate the concept of responsibility, as if the starter of a causal chain is responsible for all results of that chain then whoever created this world is responsible for everything happening, good or bad.



I like the Hollywood vampire, handsome, cool magickal powers, live forever, yeah, they are cool. I wish they where real. I would love to meet one. [/QUOTE]
No . . . it would not!