Original post: callum
Kether and Malkuth are the same in the way that energy and matter are the same and as waves and particles are the same or Sunyata and Samsara are the same. they are not even really two sides of the one coin (i think someone has already posted something about confusing the map with the territory).
i feel that acceptence of "as above, so below" but not "as below, so above" would indicate a fundemental dualism... an irreconcilable division between spirit and matter which would make physical, biological and individual evolution impossible.
gravity did not always exist... originally there was a single unified force which evolved into the four physical forces we recognise.... we exert gravity and in a sense we are gravity. i think it was Archimedes that said he could move the world if he could build a lever that was long enough.... it is just a matter of scale.
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: Specktackular
[QUOTE=callum]Kether and Malkuth are the same in the way that energy and matter are the same and as waves and particles are the same or Sunyata and Samsara are the same. they are not even really two sides of the one coin (i think someone has already posted something about confusing the map with the territory).
i feel that acceptence of "as above, so below" but not "as below, so above" would indicate a fundemental dualism... an irreconcilable division between spirit and matter which would make physical, biological and individual evolution impossible.
gravity did not always exist... originally there was a single unified force which evolved into the four physical forces we recognise.... we exert gravity and in a sense we are gravity. i think it was Archimedes that said he could move the world if he could build a lever that was long enough.... it is just a matter of scale.[/QUOTE]
It's the idea that matter is the shadow of spirit and that malkuth is emanated from Kether and not the other way around that you are ignoring.
[QUOTE=callum]Kether and Malkuth are the same in the way that energy and matter are the same and as waves and particles are the same or Sunyata and Samsara are the same. they are not even really two sides of the one coin (i think someone has already posted something about confusing the map with the territory).
i feel that acceptence of "as above, so below" but not "as below, so above" would indicate a fundemental dualism... an irreconcilable division between spirit and matter which would make physical, biological and individual evolution impossible.
gravity did not always exist... originally there was a single unified force which evolved into the four physical forces we recognise.... we exert gravity and in a sense we are gravity. i think it was Archimedes that said he could move the world if he could build a lever that was long enough.... it is just a matter of scale.[/QUOTE]
It's the idea that matter is the shadow of spirit and that malkuth is emanated from Kether and not the other way around that you are ignoring.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: callum
Specktackular, it is not an idea that am ignoring... it is an idea that i am disagreeing with. you might just as logically say the spirit is the shadow, emanation or emergent property of matter as the biological argument goes. consider the alchemical term Prima Materia.... and the Buddhist notion of the reality.
Specktackular, it is not an idea that am ignoring... it is an idea that i am disagreeing with. you might just as logically say the spirit is the shadow, emanation or emergent property of matter as the biological argument goes. consider the alchemical term Prima Materia.... and the Buddhist notion of the reality.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: Specktackular
[QUOTE=callum]Specktackular, it is not an idea that am ignoring... it is an idea that i am disagreeing with. you might just as logically say the spirit is the shadow, emanation or emergent property of matter as the biological argument goes. consider the alchemical term Prima Materia.... and the Buddhist notion of the reality.[/QUOTE]
Both Prima Materia and Buddhist notion of reality support what I'm saying. Prima Material is the first cause or source of all things or G*d, the source of all wisdom and knowledge. Buddhist reality says that all is an illusion, which is essentially the same thing. Both of these ideas are the equivalent of spirit creating the material world. The spirit is not the shadow, since it is the source where things originate. These ideas ultimately support the notion that the universe is mental or spiritual first and foremost rather than material.
It's not a chicken or egg scenerio according to these ideas. Thought comes before action ...and where does thought come from? What I think is responsible for what I "see" (Gestalt) and what I "see" influences what I think and what I think influences what I do and what I do is interpreted according to how it is perceived. All of this originates in the mind. The world of ideas comes before the world of material; dreams are virtual realities.
[QUOTE=callum]Specktackular, it is not an idea that am ignoring... it is an idea that i am disagreeing with. you might just as logically say the spirit is the shadow, emanation or emergent property of matter as the biological argument goes. consider the alchemical term Prima Materia.... and the Buddhist notion of the reality.[/QUOTE]
Both Prima Materia and Buddhist notion of reality support what I'm saying. Prima Material is the first cause or source of all things or G*d, the source of all wisdom and knowledge. Buddhist reality says that all is an illusion, which is essentially the same thing. Both of these ideas are the equivalent of spirit creating the material world. The spirit is not the shadow, since it is the source where things originate. These ideas ultimately support the notion that the universe is mental or spiritual first and foremost rather than material.
It's not a chicken or egg scenerio according to these ideas. Thought comes before action ...and where does thought come from? What I think is responsible for what I "see" (Gestalt) and what I "see" influences what I think and what I think influences what I do and what I do is interpreted according to how it is perceived. All of this originates in the mind. The world of ideas comes before the world of material; dreams are virtual realities.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: fiat_lux_777
93
Dear Specktackular,
I understand the arguments you put forward, but feel we will never agree on this matter because of our differing viewpoints.
Of course, this would disallow various eyewitness reports of various holy men and women levitating, crossing vast distances rapidly, and so on and so forth. Natural laws can be broken under the correct circumstances. I'm not saying I can do this, merely that the potentiality exists.
That, of course, requires belief in Jehovah and the veracity of the Bible....To be rather redundant, I have no faith in faith.
Because most people think magick is something that you do rather than something that you are. Most people have little confidence in their own "inner voice" and need to be led by other "masters" back to that which they originally were as children.
How did nature crush him? I used this example simply because of the mystical thrall in which he held people, not because of an affinity for the man (just pre-empting!). He crushed himself through bad choices and judgement. I don't know if he changed the heirachy of nature (and I don't understand the relevance of the question to the original points raised) but he certainly changed the consciousness of the world, both then and now. You previously have posited that the "higher" is the realm of God....so Hitler achieved his aims to affect the lower world with the help of the higher?
I hate to be a nit-picker, but why is the world of ideas above? There are no directions above the physical plane. The Map of the Four Worlds is just that - the map is not the thing, if you know what I mean. Sometimes things aren't meant to be taken literally.
Please explain the difference between a skilled advertising executive using his artifice to craft a campaign to influence you to buy a certain product, and a magician crafting a ritual designed to increase sales in his little shop.
The question here is whether Kether (or anything else) is static and unchanging, or whether it is in a state of constant flux. I believe there is a hermetic axiom that applies to this, which is true on all levels
From whence does the source receive the impetus to flow/change? If it is the source, then it can't be drawing from above (discounting, to a degree, the veils of negative existence - which would only complicate this matter more!) It receives stimuli from below. Remember, The Tree of Life is also the ladder of lights, whereby energy flows in both directions. If you care to ascribe to Theological dogma, the whole point of the Tree was so that God could experience physicality. This, in and of itself, puts paid to the theory that God is all-knowing (after all, why would you be curious to experience that which is already known?) Information received flows back to the source.
Here's a worthwhile quote -
"As above, so below; as below, so above."--The Kybalion.
This Principle embodies the truth that there is always a Correspondence between the laws and phenomena of the various planes of Being and Life. The old Hermetic axiom ran in these words: "As above, so below; as below,
soabove." and the grasping of this Principle gives one the means of solving many a dark paradox, and hidden secret of Nature. There are planes beyond our knowing, but when we apply the Principle of Correspondence to them we are able to understand much that would otherwise be unknowable to us. ThisPrinciple is of universal application and manifestation, on the various planes of the material, mental, and spiritual universe--it is an Universal Law.The ancient Hermetists considered this Principle as one of the most important mental instruments by which man was able to pry aside the obstacles which hid from view the Unknown. Its use even tore aside the Veil of Isis to the extent that a glimpse of the face of the goddess might be caught. Just asa knowledge of the
Principles of Geometry enables man to measure distant suns and their movements, while seated in his observatory, so a knowledge of the Principle of Correspondence enables Man to reason intelligently from the Known to the Unknown. Studying the monad, he understands the archangel. "
These thoughts are probably not well stated, for which I am sorry - rather tired at the moment.
93 93/93
Todd
93
Dear Specktackular,
I understand the arguments you put forward, but feel we will never agree on this matter because of our differing viewpoints.
Specktackular wrote:I knew someone would mention spaceships or airplanes. But, we ARE at gravity's mercy. I can jump up in the air, too, but gravity isn't overthrown! The planets are kept in place by gravity. THAT is the hierarchy. You can't fight that with a jet or a rocket. Natural law ALLOWS you to invent flying machines.
Of course, this would disallow various eyewitness reports of various holy men and women levitating, crossing vast distances rapidly, and so on and so forth. Natural laws can be broken under the correct circumstances. I'm not saying I can do this, merely that the potentiality exists.
Since we're talking theoretically, Jehovah would never be toppled because the theory itself does not allow for it. The Bible says Jehovah will win. End of that story. You're trying to write a new theory into the one that has been definitively written (see Revelations).
That, of course, requires belief in Jehovah and the veracity of the Bible....To be rather redundant, I have no faith in faith.
Yes, "everything is magick..." so why not throw away all your magick books?
Because most people think magick is something that you do rather than something that you are. Most people have little confidence in their own "inner voice" and need to be led by other "masters" back to that which they originally were as children.
Hitler made his mark... but nature came back to crush him. Sure, there's an argument that "nature kills everyone in the end." But, did Hitler change the hierarchy of nature? It doesn't appear that he did to me. Was he working with natural law or against it? He did what he was allowed within the confines of the nature, it seems to me. He, if anything, affected the lower world with help from the higher. He thought what he put into action. His actions affected the thoughts of other individuals, but beyond this, the balance of nature was not upset.
How did nature crush him? I used this example simply because of the mystical thrall in which he held people, not because of an affinity for the man (just pre-empting!). He crushed himself through bad choices and judgement. I don't know if he changed the heirachy of nature (and I don't understand the relevance of the question to the original points raised) but he certainly changed the consciousness of the world, both then and now. You previously have posited that the "higher" is the realm of God....so Hitler achieved his aims to affect the lower world with the help of the higher?
Once again, that is "as above, so below" because what you speak and think come from the idea world (above). If you act without thinking, your DNA and the probability of your random motions have still been ordered by the Above world.
I hate to be a nit-picker, but why is the world of ideas above? There are no directions above the physical plane. The Map of the Four Worlds is just that - the map is not the thing, if you know what I mean. Sometimes things aren't meant to be taken literally.
If we are talking about things most people wouldn't consider magick (like advertising), then this makes sense. If we are talking of ritual magick, however, we are intentionally tapping into the higher realms to change the lower world.
Please explain the difference between a skilled advertising executive using his artifice to craft a campaign to influence you to buy a certain product, and a magician crafting a ritual designed to increase sales in his little shop.
There is a correlation between the ultimate change in the lower world and the higher realms, but have we really changed the higher realms or merely worked within their scope of possibilities and chosen a new one for yourself to experience down here? Can you picture a new color? Can you come up with a new emotion?
The question here is whether Kether (or anything else) is static and unchanging, or whether it is in a state of constant flux. I believe there is a hermetic axiom that applies to this, which is true on all levels
From whence does the source receive the impetus to flow/change? If it is the source, then it can't be drawing from above (discounting, to a degree, the veils of negative existence - which would only complicate this matter more!) It receives stimuli from below. Remember, The Tree of Life is also the ladder of lights, whereby energy flows in both directions. If you care to ascribe to Theological dogma, the whole point of the Tree was so that God could experience physicality. This, in and of itself, puts paid to the theory that God is all-knowing (after all, why would you be curious to experience that which is already known?) Information received flows back to the source.Here's a worthwhile quote -
"As above, so below; as below, so above."--The Kybalion.
This Principle embodies the truth that there is always a Correspondence between the laws and phenomena of the various planes of Being and Life. The old Hermetic axiom ran in these words: "As above, so below; as below,
soabove." and the grasping of this Principle gives one the means of solving many a dark paradox, and hidden secret of Nature. There are planes beyond our knowing, but when we apply the Principle of Correspondence to them we are able to understand much that would otherwise be unknowable to us. ThisPrinciple is of universal application and manifestation, on the various planes of the material, mental, and spiritual universe--it is an Universal Law.The ancient Hermetists considered this Principle as one of the most important mental instruments by which man was able to pry aside the obstacles which hid from view the Unknown. Its use even tore aside the Veil of Isis to the extent that a glimpse of the face of the goddess might be caught. Just asa knowledge of the
Principles of Geometry enables man to measure distant suns and their movements, while seated in his observatory, so a knowledge of the Principle of Correspondence enables Man to reason intelligently from the Known to the Unknown. Studying the monad, he understands the archangel. "
These thoughts are probably not well stated, for which I am sorry - rather tired at the moment.
93 93/93
Todd
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: callum
Specktackular, from my understanding the Prima Materia is niether matter nor spirit, dead nor alive, is even before the operation both lead and gold (although the alchemist must be rediscover this for herself).... and the Buddhist notion of reality is neither mind nor illusion although the ego process the experience reality this dualistic way in response to the threat of transformation by clinging to objects in Samsara or "escaping" to the unchanging perfection in Sunyata (consider your own distinction about the experience of nothing verses the experience of the IDEA of nothing in another thread). perhaps our opinions are not so different as they first seem (the terms spirit and matter can be interpreted many ways) or perhaps it is just that you are an idealist and i am a materialist... or, more likely, you are a dualist and i am a monist.
Specktackular, from my understanding the Prima Materia is niether matter nor spirit, dead nor alive, is even before the operation both lead and gold (although the alchemist must be rediscover this for herself).... and the Buddhist notion of reality is neither mind nor illusion although the ego process the experience reality this dualistic way in response to the threat of transformation by clinging to objects in Samsara or "escaping" to the unchanging perfection in Sunyata (consider your own distinction about the experience of nothing verses the experience of the IDEA of nothing in another thread). perhaps our opinions are not so different as they first seem (the terms spirit and matter can be interpreted many ways) or perhaps it is just that you are an idealist and i am a materialist... or, more likely, you are a dualist and i am a monist.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: Specktackular
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]93
Dear Specktackular,
I understand the arguments you put forward, but feel we will never agree on this matter because of our differing viewpoints.
Of course, this would disallow various eyewitness reports of various holy men and women levitating, crossing vast distances rapidly, and so on and so forth. Natural laws can be broken under the correct circumstances. I'm not saying I can do this, merely that the potentiality exists.[/quote]
Are they acting against nature or WITH nature? Are they tapped into higher realms of nature? Are they shattering the solar system or universe?
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]That, of course, requires belief in Jehovah and the veracity of the Bible....To be rather redundant, I have no faith in faith.[/quote]
True, but that is the object model we were using.
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]Because most people think magick is something that you do rather than something that you are. Most people have little confidence in their own "inner voice" and need to be led by other "masters" back to that which they originally were as children.[/quote]
In one culture at least, one selected child is kept in total isolation and darkness (a cave) with no human contact until past the age of 10. This child is the tribe's oracle. Is this much different from what magick books teach? Kind of introspection... but this is different from brushing your teeth. Though, according to Crowley, that too is magick. If everything is magick, then we may as well disregard the mundane forms, I reckon.
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]How did nature crush him? I used this example simply because of the mystical thrall in which he held people, not because of an affinity for the man (just pre-empting!). He crushed himself through bad choices and judgement. I don't know if he changed the heirachy of nature (and I don't understand the relevance of the question to the original points raised) but he certainly changed the consciousness of the world, both then and now. You previously have posited that the "higher" is the realm of God....so Hitler achieved his aims to affect the lower world with the help of the higher?[/quote]
Yes, Hitler's ideas came from "above" and he acted them out "below." Racism and hatred are ideas, not material substances. Nature crushed him because more force was against his will than the force his will was able to exert on his surroundings. His people "saw" their environment in a similar way as Hitler and they "colored" the Jews as evil. All this came from the idea world.
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]I hate to be a nit-picker, but why is the world of ideas above? There are no directions above the physical plane. The Map of the Four Worlds is just that - the map is not the thing, if you know what I mean. Sometimes things aren't meant to be taken literally.[/quote]
"Above" is not a direction in this sense. It refers to many things which are not directions. Ideas become actions and creations, so thought is before. But, does that mean it's "to the left"? In Western culture, maybe, but in other cultures they read right-to-left and top-to-bottom. Above is just a distinction.
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]Please explain the difference between a skilled advertising executive using his artifice to craft a campaign to influence you to buy a certain product, and a magician crafting a ritual designed to increase sales in his little shop.[/quote]
One appeals to invisible forces on a higher plane, the other applies directly to invisible forces at work in the mundane realm. Advertising is direct communication using language and pictures meant to influence people directly. You don't hire an ad agency to create an ad, sigilize it and then burn it without showing it to your audience. One uses forces "up there", the other uses forces "down here".
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]The question here is whether Kether (or anything else) is static and unchanging, or whether it is in a state of constant flux. I believe there is a hermetic axiom that applies to this, which is true on all levels From whence does the source receive the impetus to flow/change? If it is the source, then it can't be drawing from above (discounting, to a degree, the veils of negative existence - which would only complicate this matter more!) It receives stimuli from below. Remember, The Tree of Life is also the ladder of lights, whereby energy flows in both directions. If you care to ascribe to Theological dogma, the whole point of the Tree was so that God could experience physicality. This, in and of itself, puts paid to the theory that God is all-knowing (after all, why would you be curious to experience that which is already known?) Information received flows back to the source.[/quote]
I agree. Division for the sake of union, whether that union be through interaction, sex or whatever, just as you roll around thoughts in your own mind. If God is everything, of course this is all knowing. The question is if God is a seperate personified ultimate deity or just the sum total of all knowledge and consciousness existing in all forms. The idea here is that "God" experienced himself BY seperating into different qualities, which before seperating were perhaps not known. This idea mirrors the development of human ego.
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777] Here's a worthwhile quote -
"As above, so below; as below, so above."--The Kybalion.
This Principle embodies the truth that there is always a Correspondence between the laws and phenomena of the various planes of Being and Life. The old Hermetic axiom ran in these words: "As above, so below; as below,
soabove." and the grasping of this Principle gives one the means of solving many a dark paradox, and hidden secret of Nature. There are planes beyond our knowing, but when we apply the Principle of Correspondence to them we are able to understand much that would otherwise be unknowable to us. ThisPrinciple is of universal application and manifestation, on the various planes of the material, mental, and spiritual universe--it is an Universal Law.The ancient Hermetists considered this Principle as one of the most important mental instruments by which man was able to pry aside the obstacles which hid from view the Unknown. Its use even tore aside the Veil of Isis to the extent that a glimpse of the face of the goddess might be caught. Just asa knowledge of the
Principles of Geometry enables man to measure distant suns and their movements, while seated in his observatory, so a knowledge of the Principle of Correspondence enables Man to reason intelligently from the Known to the Unknown. Studying the monad, he understands the archangel. "
These thoughts are probably not well stated, for which I am sorry - rather tired at the moment.
93 93/93
Todd[/QUOTE]
Those thoughts were very well stated. I understand what you are saying, but it all goes back to perception. Without "above" there is no reality for a person. Perception is the crown of the tree of life, isn't it? Doesn't Atziluth = I AM?
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]93
Dear Specktackular,
I understand the arguments you put forward, but feel we will never agree on this matter because of our differing viewpoints.
Of course, this would disallow various eyewitness reports of various holy men and women levitating, crossing vast distances rapidly, and so on and so forth. Natural laws can be broken under the correct circumstances. I'm not saying I can do this, merely that the potentiality exists.[/quote]
Are they acting against nature or WITH nature? Are they tapped into higher realms of nature? Are they shattering the solar system or universe?
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]That, of course, requires belief in Jehovah and the veracity of the Bible....To be rather redundant, I have no faith in faith.[/quote]
True, but that is the object model we were using.
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]Because most people think magick is something that you do rather than something that you are. Most people have little confidence in their own "inner voice" and need to be led by other "masters" back to that which they originally were as children.[/quote]
In one culture at least, one selected child is kept in total isolation and darkness (a cave) with no human contact until past the age of 10. This child is the tribe's oracle. Is this much different from what magick books teach? Kind of introspection... but this is different from brushing your teeth. Though, according to Crowley, that too is magick. If everything is magick, then we may as well disregard the mundane forms, I reckon.
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]How did nature crush him? I used this example simply because of the mystical thrall in which he held people, not because of an affinity for the man (just pre-empting!). He crushed himself through bad choices and judgement. I don't know if he changed the heirachy of nature (and I don't understand the relevance of the question to the original points raised) but he certainly changed the consciousness of the world, both then and now. You previously have posited that the "higher" is the realm of God....so Hitler achieved his aims to affect the lower world with the help of the higher?[/quote]
Yes, Hitler's ideas came from "above" and he acted them out "below." Racism and hatred are ideas, not material substances. Nature crushed him because more force was against his will than the force his will was able to exert on his surroundings. His people "saw" their environment in a similar way as Hitler and they "colored" the Jews as evil. All this came from the idea world.
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]I hate to be a nit-picker, but why is the world of ideas above? There are no directions above the physical plane. The Map of the Four Worlds is just that - the map is not the thing, if you know what I mean. Sometimes things aren't meant to be taken literally.[/quote]
"Above" is not a direction in this sense. It refers to many things which are not directions. Ideas become actions and creations, so thought is before. But, does that mean it's "to the left"? In Western culture, maybe, but in other cultures they read right-to-left and top-to-bottom. Above is just a distinction.
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]Please explain the difference between a skilled advertising executive using his artifice to craft a campaign to influence you to buy a certain product, and a magician crafting a ritual designed to increase sales in his little shop.[/quote]
One appeals to invisible forces on a higher plane, the other applies directly to invisible forces at work in the mundane realm. Advertising is direct communication using language and pictures meant to influence people directly. You don't hire an ad agency to create an ad, sigilize it and then burn it without showing it to your audience. One uses forces "up there", the other uses forces "down here".
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]The question here is whether Kether (or anything else) is static and unchanging, or whether it is in a state of constant flux. I believe there is a hermetic axiom that applies to this, which is true on all levels
From whence does the source receive the impetus to flow/change? If it is the source, then it can't be drawing from above (discounting, to a degree, the veils of negative existence - which would only complicate this matter more!) It receives stimuli from below. Remember, The Tree of Life is also the ladder of lights, whereby energy flows in both directions. If you care to ascribe to Theological dogma, the whole point of the Tree was so that God could experience physicality. This, in and of itself, puts paid to the theory that God is all-knowing (after all, why would you be curious to experience that which is already known?) Information received flows back to the source.[/quote]I agree. Division for the sake of union, whether that union be through interaction, sex or whatever, just as you roll around thoughts in your own mind. If God is everything, of course this is all knowing. The question is if God is a seperate personified ultimate deity or just the sum total of all knowledge and consciousness existing in all forms. The idea here is that "God" experienced himself BY seperating into different qualities, which before seperating were perhaps not known. This idea mirrors the development of human ego.
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777] Here's a worthwhile quote -
"As above, so below; as below, so above."--The Kybalion.
This Principle embodies the truth that there is always a Correspondence between the laws and phenomena of the various planes of Being and Life. The old Hermetic axiom ran in these words: "As above, so below; as below,
soabove." and the grasping of this Principle gives one the means of solving many a dark paradox, and hidden secret of Nature. There are planes beyond our knowing, but when we apply the Principle of Correspondence to them we are able to understand much that would otherwise be unknowable to us. ThisPrinciple is of universal application and manifestation, on the various planes of the material, mental, and spiritual universe--it is an Universal Law.The ancient Hermetists considered this Principle as one of the most important mental instruments by which man was able to pry aside the obstacles which hid from view the Unknown. Its use even tore aside the Veil of Isis to the extent that a glimpse of the face of the goddess might be caught. Just asa knowledge of the
Principles of Geometry enables man to measure distant suns and their movements, while seated in his observatory, so a knowledge of the Principle of Correspondence enables Man to reason intelligently from the Known to the Unknown. Studying the monad, he understands the archangel. "
These thoughts are probably not well stated, for which I am sorry - rather tired at the moment.
93 93/93
Todd[/QUOTE]
Those thoughts were very well stated. I understand what you are saying, but it all goes back to perception. Without "above" there is no reality for a person. Perception is the crown of the tree of life, isn't it? Doesn't Atziluth = I AM?
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: Specktackular
prima
adj : indicating the most important performer or role; "the leading man"; "prima ballerina"; "prima donna"; "a star figure skater"; "the starring role"; "a stellar role"; "a stellar performance" [syn: leading(p), prima(p), star(p), starring(p), stellar(a)] n : used primarily as eating apples [syn: Prima]
"materia":
* argumentosus : proven, rich in material.
* bona : good qualities, gifts, blessings as well as material properties.
* materia : material, substance, matter.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prima Materia... The First Cause... The Wellspring... The World Soul... The Source...
For these things humanity has sought since time immemorial, yet these things are all one -- the source from which all things come, and to which all things return. To a theologian, Prima Materia is fundamental, ineffable God. To an alchemist, Prima Materia is the Philosopher's Stone, the magickal substance which transmutes base metals into pure gold. To a philosopher, Prima Materia is the source of all wisdom and knowledge. No matter what each individual considers to be Prima Materia, it is the figurative Holy Grail at the end of every human quest -- to learn the unknowable, to seek the unfindable, to do the impossible.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The essences of the Gods never came into existence (for that which always is never comes into existence; and that exists for ever which possesses Primary Force and by nature suffers nothing): neither do they consist of bodies; for even in bodies the powers are incorporeal. Neither are they contained by space; for that is a property of bodies. Neither are they separate from the First Cause nor from one another, just as thoughts are not separate from mind nor acts of knowledge from the soul."
--- Sallustius, On the Gods and the Universe
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forgive me for copying and pasting, but I can't say it any better than this:callum wrote:Specktackular, from my understanding the Prima Materia is niether matter nor spirit, dead nor alive, is even before the operation both lead and gold (although the alchemist must be rediscover this for herself)....
prima
adj : indicating the most important performer or role; "the leading man"; "prima ballerina"; "prima donna"; "a star figure skater"; "the starring role"; "a stellar role"; "a stellar performance" [syn: leading(p), prima(p), star(p), starring(p), stellar(a)] n : used primarily as eating apples [syn: Prima]
"materia":
* argumentosus : proven, rich in material.
* bona : good qualities, gifts, blessings as well as material properties.
* materia : material, substance, matter.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prima Materia... The First Cause... The Wellspring... The World Soul... The Source...
For these things humanity has sought since time immemorial, yet these things are all one -- the source from which all things come, and to which all things return. To a theologian, Prima Materia is fundamental, ineffable God. To an alchemist, Prima Materia is the Philosopher's Stone, the magickal substance which transmutes base metals into pure gold. To a philosopher, Prima Materia is the source of all wisdom and knowledge. No matter what each individual considers to be Prima Materia, it is the figurative Holy Grail at the end of every human quest -- to learn the unknowable, to seek the unfindable, to do the impossible.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The essences of the Gods never came into existence (for that which always is never comes into existence; and that exists for ever which possesses Primary Force and by nature suffers nothing): neither do they consist of bodies; for even in bodies the powers are incorporeal. Neither are they contained by space; for that is a property of bodies. Neither are they separate from the First Cause nor from one another, just as thoughts are not separate from mind nor acts of knowledge from the soul."
--- Sallustius, On the Gods and the Universe
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then, I agree completely. How could reality be any more of an illusion than mind? If reality is an illusion, then illusion is reality. There would be no greater reality than the illusion because reality IS illusion. They are two aspects of the same thing, but perception must come first and that is all I have been saying. Without perception, the world does not exist (for you).The Buddhist notion of reality is neither mind nor illusion
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: callum
Specktackular
"Without perception, the world does not exist (for you)." Agreed totally. i don't see how this idea is connected with "As below, so above". my perceptual systems, my brain, my imagination are all parts of the first matter (parts of the first matter which reflects upon itself just as a pencils are part of the first matter which writes). just as the world would exist without pencils, it would exist without perception... although obviously no-one would know that it exists (not that our perception is an accurate reflection of what exists). although consciousness posses some interesting philosophical problems, these, like the notion of self, can to some extent be resolved by abandonning the notion of being as a noun (objectively there is no I AM... there is only Going.... talking, living , dying and being born). i do not believe in a divine architect that exists outside space-time, nor some cosmic baby who dreamed it all into existence. here there is the grand dreaming... a work in progress trying to understand.
i disagree with you defintion of the first matter from prima/prime/first/major and materia/substance. the prima materia is what the alchemist has at the start of the operation and what he discovers at its completion (to state it superfically: first i saw mountains then i saw the void and then i say the mountains again afresh.... all that has changed is me).
we have taken quite different metaphysical positions and while it might be fun to deconstruct the logic of each other's arguments, there is no point in just repeating ourselves. thank you for this discussion.
Specktackular
"Without perception, the world does not exist (for you)." Agreed totally. i don't see how this idea is connected with "As below, so above". my perceptual systems, my brain, my imagination are all parts of the first matter (parts of the first matter which reflects upon itself just as a pencils are part of the first matter which writes). just as the world would exist without pencils, it would exist without perception... although obviously no-one would know that it exists (not that our perception is an accurate reflection of what exists). although consciousness posses some interesting philosophical problems, these, like the notion of self, can to some extent be resolved by abandonning the notion of being as a noun (objectively there is no I AM... there is only Going.... talking, living , dying and being born). i do not believe in a divine architect that exists outside space-time, nor some cosmic baby who dreamed it all into existence. here there is the grand dreaming... a work in progress trying to understand.
i disagree with you defintion of the first matter from prima/prime/first/major and materia/substance. the prima materia is what the alchemist has at the start of the operation and what he discovers at its completion (to state it superfically: first i saw mountains then i saw the void and then i say the mountains again afresh.... all that has changed is me).
we have taken quite different metaphysical positions and while it might be fun to deconstruct the logic of each other's arguments, there is no point in just repeating ourselves. thank you for this discussion.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: Panu Nahka
To me, this whole discussion seems bit absurd. As I see it, Kether, The Crown of God, is the base building block, the primordial energy behind every form. Likewise, Giburah, the Strength, manifests itself through natural forces. And so on. Malkuth, The Kingdom(reality), is only the combination of every other Sephira.
So, there are no "higher laws". With magick, we just bend other sephira to cause effects in Malkuth. In Kabbalistic model, only Sephira that is malleable and prone to change is Malkuth, the reality.
Just my humble opinion.
To me, this whole discussion seems bit absurd. As I see it, Kether, The Crown of God, is the base building block, the primordial energy behind every form. Likewise, Giburah, the Strength, manifests itself through natural forces. And so on. Malkuth, The Kingdom(reality), is only the combination of every other Sephira.
So, there are no "higher laws". With magick, we just bend other sephira to cause effects in Malkuth. In Kabbalistic model, only Sephira that is malleable and prone to change is Malkuth, the reality.
Just my humble opinion.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: Specktackular
[QUOTE=callum]Specktackular
"Without perception, the world does not exist (for you)." Agreed totally. i don't see how this idea is connected with "As below, so above". [/quote]
Mind is "above" (the idea world). Self-image depends upon the idea world. In Qabala, each sephiroth has 4 worlds. In Hermetics, this is explained by "as above, so below, as within, so without, as without so within..." from the tiniest speck of dirt to infinity. So, even a rock should contain these 4 worlds, the 4th world resulting in the physical manifestation we call "rock."
[QUOTE=callum]my perceptual systems, my brain, my imagination are all parts of the first matter (parts of the first matter which reflects upon itself just as a pencils are part of the first matter which writes).[/quote]
Wouldn't the first matter still be your mind, which uses the pencil to write?
[QUOTE=callum]just as the world would exist without pencils, it would exist without perception... [/quote]
But, without the first matter, would the world be animated? Attraction and repelling are Hermetic concepts relating to the first 3 worlds, which results in the 4th. You've got two opposites which unite in the balance which is produced in the material. Or, the eastern alchemical description: things "like to go together."
[QUOTE=callum]although obviously no-one would know that it exists (not that our perception is an accurate reflection of what exists). [/quote]
The chemical reactions that existed in the world would experience change and group themselves and evolve and perhaps turn into people one day. If the universe is mental and all is mind, then the idea that certain things "like" to go together makes some sense. So, even without humans, the forces would manifest themselves as the world.
[QUOTE=callum]although consciousness posses some interesting philosophical problems, these, like the notion of self, can to some extent be resolved by abandonning the notion of being as a noun (objectively there is no I AM... there is only Going.... talking, living , dying and being born). i do not believe in a divine architect that exists outside space-time, nor some cosmic baby who dreamed it all into existence. here there is the grand dreaming... a work in progress trying to understand.
i disagree with you defintion of the first matter from prima/prime/first/major and materia/substance. the prima materia is what the alchemist has at the start of the operation and what he discovers at its completion (to state it superfically: first i saw mountains then i saw the void and then i say the mountains again afresh.... all that has changed is me).
we have taken quite different metaphysical positions and while it might be fun to deconstruct the logic of each other's arguments, there is no point in just repeating ourselves. thank you for this discussion.[/QUOTE]
OK, thanks for contributing.
[QUOTE=callum]Specktackular
"Without perception, the world does not exist (for you)." Agreed totally. i don't see how this idea is connected with "As below, so above". [/quote]
Mind is "above" (the idea world). Self-image depends upon the idea world. In Qabala, each sephiroth has 4 worlds. In Hermetics, this is explained by "as above, so below, as within, so without, as without so within..." from the tiniest speck of dirt to infinity. So, even a rock should contain these 4 worlds, the 4th world resulting in the physical manifestation we call "rock."
[QUOTE=callum]my perceptual systems, my brain, my imagination are all parts of the first matter (parts of the first matter which reflects upon itself just as a pencils are part of the first matter which writes).[/quote]
Wouldn't the first matter still be your mind, which uses the pencil to write?
[QUOTE=callum]just as the world would exist without pencils, it would exist without perception... [/quote]
But, without the first matter, would the world be animated? Attraction and repelling are Hermetic concepts relating to the first 3 worlds, which results in the 4th. You've got two opposites which unite in the balance which is produced in the material. Or, the eastern alchemical description: things "like to go together."
[QUOTE=callum]although obviously no-one would know that it exists (not that our perception is an accurate reflection of what exists). [/quote]
The chemical reactions that existed in the world would experience change and group themselves and evolve and perhaps turn into people one day. If the universe is mental and all is mind, then the idea that certain things "like" to go together makes some sense. So, even without humans, the forces would manifest themselves as the world.
[QUOTE=callum]although consciousness posses some interesting philosophical problems, these, like the notion of self, can to some extent be resolved by abandonning the notion of being as a noun (objectively there is no I AM... there is only Going.... talking, living , dying and being born). i do not believe in a divine architect that exists outside space-time, nor some cosmic baby who dreamed it all into existence. here there is the grand dreaming... a work in progress trying to understand.
i disagree with you defintion of the first matter from prima/prime/first/major and materia/substance. the prima materia is what the alchemist has at the start of the operation and what he discovers at its completion (to state it superfically: first i saw mountains then i saw the void and then i say the mountains again afresh.... all that has changed is me).
we have taken quite different metaphysical positions and while it might be fun to deconstruct the logic of each other's arguments, there is no point in just repeating ourselves. thank you for this discussion.[/QUOTE]
OK, thanks for contributing.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: Specktackular
[QUOTE=Panu Nahka]To me, this whole discussion seems bit absurd. As I see it, Kether, The Crown of God, is the base building block, the primordial energy behind every form. Likewise, Giburah, the Strength, manifests itself through natural forces. And so on. Malkuth, The Kingdom(reality), is only the combination of every other Sephira.
So, there are no "higher laws". With magick, we just bend other sephira to cause effects in Malkuth. In Kabbalistic model, only Sephira that is malleable and prone to change is Malkuth, the reality.
Just my humble opinion.[/QUOTE]
Right, there are only "cosmic laws," but to the person who does not understand these laws, they could be described as "higher," which is the only reason I used the term.
Point is, if you can not reconstruct the universe, if you can not elimate completely such things as gravity, etc., then any effect you can produce in the phenomenal world is only using occult means which correspond to these cosmic laws. These cosmic laws are the ultimate framework of reality. This framework is the "above".
[QUOTE=Panu Nahka]To me, this whole discussion seems bit absurd. As I see it, Kether, The Crown of God, is the base building block, the primordial energy behind every form. Likewise, Giburah, the Strength, manifests itself through natural forces. And so on. Malkuth, The Kingdom(reality), is only the combination of every other Sephira.
So, there are no "higher laws". With magick, we just bend other sephira to cause effects in Malkuth. In Kabbalistic model, only Sephira that is malleable and prone to change is Malkuth, the reality.
Just my humble opinion.[/QUOTE]
Right, there are only "cosmic laws," but to the person who does not understand these laws, they could be described as "higher," which is the only reason I used the term.
Point is, if you can not reconstruct the universe, if you can not elimate completely such things as gravity, etc., then any effect you can produce in the phenomenal world is only using occult means which correspond to these cosmic laws. These cosmic laws are the ultimate framework of reality. This framework is the "above".
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: I AM
I do not know where it says that Above = Idea or mind. In my experience this is not true.
A perfect example of As Below So Above is the physical Circle. As I create a Physical Circle one is simultaneously created in the Astral. That this is true is evidenced by the many Magickians that soon actually "see" their Circle in the Astral, many times with surprise. They see the glowing Circle, the shimmering wall, and if created with the LBRP also see the Pentagrams, etc. Its reverse is true if one creates an Astral Circle.
Thus, the creation of something Below created something Above.
This is a perfect example of As Above, So Below, As Below, So Above.
Another example is ritual.
As the Magickian performs the PHYSICAL ritual to obtain a result in the Physical the Magickians WILL actually creates the ritual and the result in the Astral. This result is then ALWAYS manifested in the Physical reality. To those that say that ritual is not always successful my answer would be that there exists different levels of success. If the manifestation is strong enough the physical will be materially altered. If the manifestation is NOT strong enough then the physical world will remain TO OUR PERCEPTION unchanged. However, that does not mean that the Magick did not manifest.
I find this a VERY difficult concept to discuss and put into words. As an example, if I use my breath to blow on a brick wall the wall is affected but shows no outward signs of my efforts. However, if a hurricane force wind blows against that same wall the wall falls down. In both cases the physical was affected however, only in the latter case was it strong enough to actually change the physical.
These examples represent As Above, So Below and As Below So Above in my experience. Many other examples could be given but these should suffice to make my point.
The concept of the mind or ideas equaling "Above" is foreign to me. I have pretty much stayed out of this discussion as I did not want to get into a philosophical argument. However, since the topic is an important one, I felt this needed to be said.
Humbly, I AM
I do not know where it says that Above = Idea or mind. In my experience this is not true.
A perfect example of As Below So Above is the physical Circle. As I create a Physical Circle one is simultaneously created in the Astral. That this is true is evidenced by the many Magickians that soon actually "see" their Circle in the Astral, many times with surprise. They see the glowing Circle, the shimmering wall, and if created with the LBRP also see the Pentagrams, etc. Its reverse is true if one creates an Astral Circle.
Thus, the creation of something Below created something Above.
This is a perfect example of As Above, So Below, As Below, So Above.
Another example is ritual.
As the Magickian performs the PHYSICAL ritual to obtain a result in the Physical the Magickians WILL actually creates the ritual and the result in the Astral. This result is then ALWAYS manifested in the Physical reality. To those that say that ritual is not always successful my answer would be that there exists different levels of success. If the manifestation is strong enough the physical will be materially altered. If the manifestation is NOT strong enough then the physical world will remain TO OUR PERCEPTION unchanged. However, that does not mean that the Magick did not manifest.
I find this a VERY difficult concept to discuss and put into words. As an example, if I use my breath to blow on a brick wall the wall is affected but shows no outward signs of my efforts. However, if a hurricane force wind blows against that same wall the wall falls down. In both cases the physical was affected however, only in the latter case was it strong enough to actually change the physical.
These examples represent As Above, So Below and As Below So Above in my experience. Many other examples could be given but these should suffice to make my point.
The concept of the mind or ideas equaling "Above" is foreign to me. I have pretty much stayed out of this discussion as I did not want to get into a philosophical argument. However, since the topic is an important one, I felt this needed to be said.
Humbly, I AM
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: Frater Manjet
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]There is no division between magick and mundane, higher and lower, inner and outer. Such demarcations are arbitrary and subject to the perceptions of the observer.[/QUOTE] Thank you Todd for stating this as clearly as it can be ( IMO ).
I will add a further clarification of the axiom in my perceptions.
As above so below is not representive of any casual relationship. To differentiate this way is counter-productive in ceremonial thought. Continuing along the line of thought you have presented here perpetuates the duality this axiom intends to eliminate.
- VVV
[QUOTE=fiat_lux_777]There is no division between magick and mundane, higher and lower, inner and outer. Such demarcations are arbitrary and subject to the perceptions of the observer.[/QUOTE] Thank you Todd for stating this as clearly as it can be ( IMO ).
I will add a further clarification of the axiom in my perceptions.
As above so below is not representive of any casual relationship. To differentiate this way is counter-productive in ceremonial thought. Continuing along the line of thought you have presented here perpetuates the duality this axiom intends to eliminate.
- VVV
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: Specktackular
[QUOTE=I AM]I do not know where it says that Above = Idea or mind. In my experience this is not true.
A perfect example of As Below So Above is the physical Circle. As I create a Physical Circle one is simultaneously created in the Astral. That this is true is evidenced by the many Magickians that soon actually "see" their Circle in the Astral, many times with surprise. They see the glowing Circle, the shimmering wall, and if created with the LBRP also see the Pentagrams, etc. Its reverse is true if one creates an Astral Circle.
Thus, the creation of something Below created something Above.
This is a perfect example of As Above, So Below, As Below, So Above.[/quote]
Not really, the whole thing could be done in the inner temple and the only acting force involved is mental.
Mental and physical = above and below.
The astral world is "above"... the idea to create the circle came from "above"... physically drawing the circle is "below"... doing it all in your MIND as opposed to physically doing ANYTHING would be working entirely within the "above" world.
[QUOTE=I AM]Another example is ritual.
As the Magickian performs the PHYSICAL ritual to obtain a result in the Physical the Magickians WILL actually creates the ritual and the result in the Astral. This result is then ALWAYS manifested in the Physical reality. To those that say that ritual is not always successful my answer would be that there exists different levels of success. If the manifestation is strong enough the physical will be materially altered. If the manifestation is NOT strong enough then the physical world will remain TO OUR PERCEPTION unchanged. However, that does not mean that the Magick did not manifest.
I find this a VERY difficult concept to discuss and put into words. As an example, if I use my breath to blow on a brick wall the wall is affected but shows no outward signs of my efforts. However, if a hurricane force wind blows against that same wall the wall falls down. In both cases the physical was affected however, only in the latter case was it strong enough to actually change the physical.
These examples represent As Above, So Below and As Below So Above in my experience. Many other examples could be given but these should suffice to make my point.
The concept of the mind or ideas equaling "Above" is foreign to me. I have pretty much stayed out of this discussion as I did not want to get into a philosophical argument. However, since the topic is an important one, I felt this needed to be said.
Humbly, I AM[/QUOTE]
The Will is of the mental world and therefore "above." The Will is the reconcilliation of the opposites and it results in the physical world. Charging magical tools is nothing more than preparing a physical vessel for the mental world to reside in.
[QUOTE=I AM]I do not know where it says that Above = Idea or mind. In my experience this is not true.
A perfect example of As Below So Above is the physical Circle. As I create a Physical Circle one is simultaneously created in the Astral. That this is true is evidenced by the many Magickians that soon actually "see" their Circle in the Astral, many times with surprise. They see the glowing Circle, the shimmering wall, and if created with the LBRP also see the Pentagrams, etc. Its reverse is true if one creates an Astral Circle.
Thus, the creation of something Below created something Above.
This is a perfect example of As Above, So Below, As Below, So Above.[/quote]
Not really, the whole thing could be done in the inner temple and the only acting force involved is mental.
Mental and physical = above and below.
The astral world is "above"... the idea to create the circle came from "above"... physically drawing the circle is "below"... doing it all in your MIND as opposed to physically doing ANYTHING would be working entirely within the "above" world.
[QUOTE=I AM]Another example is ritual.
As the Magickian performs the PHYSICAL ritual to obtain a result in the Physical the Magickians WILL actually creates the ritual and the result in the Astral. This result is then ALWAYS manifested in the Physical reality. To those that say that ritual is not always successful my answer would be that there exists different levels of success. If the manifestation is strong enough the physical will be materially altered. If the manifestation is NOT strong enough then the physical world will remain TO OUR PERCEPTION unchanged. However, that does not mean that the Magick did not manifest.
I find this a VERY difficult concept to discuss and put into words. As an example, if I use my breath to blow on a brick wall the wall is affected but shows no outward signs of my efforts. However, if a hurricane force wind blows against that same wall the wall falls down. In both cases the physical was affected however, only in the latter case was it strong enough to actually change the physical.
These examples represent As Above, So Below and As Below So Above in my experience. Many other examples could be given but these should suffice to make my point.
The concept of the mind or ideas equaling "Above" is foreign to me. I have pretty much stayed out of this discussion as I did not want to get into a philosophical argument. However, since the topic is an important one, I felt this needed to be said.
Humbly, I AM[/QUOTE]
The Will is of the mental world and therefore "above." The Will is the reconcilliation of the opposites and it results in the physical world. Charging magical tools is nothing more than preparing a physical vessel for the mental world to reside in.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: I AM
[QUOTE=Specktackular]Not really, the whole thing could be done in the inner temple and the only acting force involved is mental.
Mental and physical = above and below.
The astral world is "above"... the idea to create the circle came from "above"... physically drawing the circle is "below"... doing it all in your MIND as opposed to physically doing ANYTHING would be working entirely within the "above" world.
The Will is of the mental world and therefore "above." The Will is the reconcilliation of the opposites and it results in the physical world. Charging magical tools is nothing more than preparing a physical vessel for the mental world to reside in.[/QUOTE]
You are pursuing this conversation from an Alchemical point of view. I am approaching it from a Magickal point of view based on actual experience. I fear we are going to disagree on this topic. I can live with that and hope you can as well.
Humbly, I AM
[QUOTE=Specktackular]Not really, the whole thing could be done in the inner temple and the only acting force involved is mental.
Mental and physical = above and below.
The astral world is "above"... the idea to create the circle came from "above"... physically drawing the circle is "below"... doing it all in your MIND as opposed to physically doing ANYTHING would be working entirely within the "above" world.
The Will is of the mental world and therefore "above." The Will is the reconcilliation of the opposites and it results in the physical world. Charging magical tools is nothing more than preparing a physical vessel for the mental world to reside in.[/QUOTE]
You are pursuing this conversation from an Alchemical point of view. I am approaching it from a Magickal point of view based on actual experience. I fear we are going to disagree on this topic. I can live with that and hope you can as well.
Humbly, I AM
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: Specktackular
Sure, but from your magickal point of view does this make sense to you:
In magick, nothing can occur without first occurring as a thought; once the thought occurs, the rest follows.
Sure, but from your magickal point of view does this make sense to you:
In magick, nothing can occur without first occurring as a thought; once the thought occurs, the rest follows.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: I AM
[QUOTE=Specktackular]Sure, but from your magickal point of view does this make sense to you:
In magick, nothing can occur without first occurring as a thought; once the thought occurs, the rest follows.
[/QUOTE]
Certainly the thought form comes first. However in my view the thought form is REAL and exists. Your assertion is that it exists in the mind alone. That is where I feel we differ.
In my view, we cannot separate ourselves from the Above. Above and Below exist simultaneously in US. We walk in both worlds all the time. Only most never realise this reality.
You appear to percieve Above and Below as a duality. I view Above and Below as two sides of the same coin with no duality. If one is FULLY Above and Below simultaneously then their thoughts ARE action and ARE manifested. The Magickian's word of Power is the outward sign of this.
This is a heavy subject and one difficult to put into words. I am having an even harder time than normal due to some meds I am taking. I hope what I have said makes sense.
Humbly, I AM
[QUOTE=Specktackular]Sure, but from your magickal point of view does this make sense to you:
In magick, nothing can occur without first occurring as a thought; once the thought occurs, the rest follows.
[/QUOTE]Certainly the thought form comes first. However in my view the thought form is REAL and exists. Your assertion is that it exists in the mind alone. That is where I feel we differ.
In my view, we cannot separate ourselves from the Above. Above and Below exist simultaneously in US. We walk in both worlds all the time. Only most never realise this reality.
You appear to percieve Above and Below as a duality. I view Above and Below as two sides of the same coin with no duality. If one is FULLY Above and Below simultaneously then their thoughts ARE action and ARE manifested. The Magickian's word of Power is the outward sign of this.
This is a heavy subject and one difficult to put into words. I am having an even harder time than normal due to some meds I am taking. I hope what I have said makes sense.
Humbly, I AM
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: Specktackular
[QUOTE=I AM]Certainly the thought form comes first. However in my view the thought form is REAL and exists. Your assertion is that it exists in the mind alone. That is where I feel we differ.
In my view, we cannot separate ourselves from the Above. Above and Below exist simultaneously in US. We walk in both worlds all the time. Only most never realize this reality.
You appear to percieve Above and Below as a duality. I view Above and Below as two sides of the same coin with no duality. If one is FULLY Above and Below simultaneously then their thoughts ARE action and ARE manifested. The Magickian's word of Power is the outward sign of this.
This is a heavy subject and one difficult to put into words. I am having an even harder time than normal due to some meds I am taking. I hope what I have said makes sense.
Humbly, I AM[/QUOTE]
I don't know if we differ, actually. I believe the thought form is real, too.
I guess what I'm saying is that all the possibilities of experience have been predetermined and what WE are left with is "reality selection". We can change our mind. But we can't really flip this so-called "illusion" into something totally different. This is our framework within which to work, this overall framework would be the ultimate "above" (to me, anyway, from as far as I can tell).
[QUOTE=I AM]Certainly the thought form comes first. However in my view the thought form is REAL and exists. Your assertion is that it exists in the mind alone. That is where I feel we differ.
In my view, we cannot separate ourselves from the Above. Above and Below exist simultaneously in US. We walk in both worlds all the time. Only most never realize this reality.
You appear to percieve Above and Below as a duality. I view Above and Below as two sides of the same coin with no duality. If one is FULLY Above and Below simultaneously then their thoughts ARE action and ARE manifested. The Magickian's word of Power is the outward sign of this.
This is a heavy subject and one difficult to put into words. I am having an even harder time than normal due to some meds I am taking. I hope what I have said makes sense.
Humbly, I AM[/QUOTE]
I don't know if we differ, actually. I believe the thought form is real, too.
I guess what I'm saying is that all the possibilities of experience have been predetermined and what WE are left with is "reality selection". We can change our mind. But we can't really flip this so-called "illusion" into something totally different. This is our framework within which to work, this overall framework would be the ultimate "above" (to me, anyway, from as far as I can tell).
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: I AM
[QUOTE=Specktackular]I don't know if we differ, actually. I believe the thought form is real, too.
I guess what I'm saying is that all the possibilities of experience have been predetermined and what WE are left with is "reality selection". We can change our mind. But we can't really flip this so-called "illusion" into something totally different. This is our framework within which to work, this overall framework would be the ultimate "above" (to me, anyway, from as far as I can tell).[/QUOTE]
Please give an example of what you are saying.
Humbly, I AM
[QUOTE=Specktackular]I don't know if we differ, actually. I believe the thought form is real, too.
I guess what I'm saying is that all the possibilities of experience have been predetermined and what WE are left with is "reality selection". We can change our mind. But we can't really flip this so-called "illusion" into something totally different. This is our framework within which to work, this overall framework would be the ultimate "above" (to me, anyway, from as far as I can tell).[/QUOTE]
Please give an example of what you are saying.
Humbly, I AM
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: Specktackular
[QUOTE=I AM]Please give an example of what you are saying.
Humbly, I AM[/QUOTE]
I don't mean to say that we can't invent new things like computers, etc.
I mean that consciousness and all that encompasses, all the feelings etc. already exist. That is the framework. All the foces of the universe, such as magnetism, already exist. That is the framework. The occult is all about mastering this framework.
[QUOTE=I AM]Please give an example of what you are saying.
Humbly, I AM[/QUOTE]
I don't mean to say that we can't invent new things like computers, etc.
I mean that consciousness and all that encompasses, all the feelings etc. already exist. That is the framework. All the foces of the universe, such as magnetism, already exist. That is the framework. The occult is all about mastering this framework.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: Specktackular
Well, I found an example that at least shows the "below" affecting the "above" in Malkuth:
"It is well known to mystics that if a man meditates upon a symbol around which certain ideas have been associated by past meditation, he will obtain access, to those ideas, even if the glyph has never been elucidated to him by those who have received the oral tradition by 'mouth to ear.'" -- The Mystical Qabalah
This is not different from seeing a tree and deciding to paint a picture of a tree.
However, isn't the idea in the Qabalah that the above world, Atziluth, is the world of archetypes? And aren't archetypes symbols? And isn't a tree an archetype? If we go with the "universe is mental" concept here, these physical manifestations are emanations of spirit and therefore reside in the "above" world, which in this case would lie outside of our immediate experience until such time as we perceived them. Our eyes are organs of perception and we're back to that original question... "where does a thought come from?"
Well, I found an example that at least shows the "below" affecting the "above" in Malkuth:
"It is well known to mystics that if a man meditates upon a symbol around which certain ideas have been associated by past meditation, he will obtain access, to those ideas, even if the glyph has never been elucidated to him by those who have received the oral tradition by 'mouth to ear.'" -- The Mystical Qabalah
This is not different from seeing a tree and deciding to paint a picture of a tree.
However, isn't the idea in the Qabalah that the above world, Atziluth, is the world of archetypes? And aren't archetypes symbols? And isn't a tree an archetype? If we go with the "universe is mental" concept here, these physical manifestations are emanations of spirit and therefore reside in the "above" world, which in this case would lie outside of our immediate experience until such time as we perceived them. Our eyes are organs of perception and we're back to that original question... "where does a thought come from?"
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Mundane Reality to Affect Higher Laws (The Magick of As Below, So Above)
Original post: Specktackular
[QUOTE=callum]http://www.torinfo.com/illusion/illus-4.html[/QUOTE]
Hmm... I'm gonna go with "the dot is in front" because the cube is not transparent (those red bars are just the painted surfaces of the top and front 2 sides).
[QUOTE=callum]http://www.torinfo.com/illusion/illus-4.html[/QUOTE]
Hmm... I'm gonna go with "the dot is in front" because the cube is not transparent (those red bars are just the painted surfaces of the top and front 2 sides).