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Beliefs
Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 8:51 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Nalyd23
It makes sense because LadyH said it.:mrgreen: As for the Sephiroth, as above so below. The Microcosm is a reflection of the Macrocosm and vice versa. The Sephiroth and the Tree of Life are very much within us.
Actually, this argument is starting to remind me of Schrodinger's Cat and whether or not light is a wave or a particle.:lol:
[QUOTE=fiat lux 777]In the end, the answer doesn't matter, because the entity behaves as if it were separate![/QUOTE]Yep, just like light "behaves" like a particle under certain conditions and "behaves" like a wave in others depending on observer and intruments used to observe and measure. Relative. Good one Todd.

Beliefs
Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:03 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Overflowed_Buffer
They may be reflected in us, but that does not mean that they exist in us. I mean that we cannot travel into ourselves and meet someone who exists from outside of us, like a person we know who lives down the street or whatever.
Beliefs
Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:09 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Overflowed_Buffer
You edited it as I was posting lol. I do not see how light can be compared to these entities. Light exists outside of us, it is not something we made up in our subconcious. There is no doubt in that (I hope;-)). Spirits, whether they act one way or another, are either ouside us or imaginary. How can there be any compromise?
Beliefs
Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:15 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Nalyd23
OK, I am, going to recommend some reading material for you.
- Prometheus Rising - Robert Anton Wilson
- Quantum Psychology - Robert Anton Wilson
- Quantum Reality - Nick Herbert
- Faster Than Light : Superluminal Loopholes in Physics - Nick Herbert
- Magick : Book 4 - Aleister Crowley
Do the exercises, do the Magick, apply the models. Then come back to this thread and re-read your own posts, see if anything has changed.

Beliefs
Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:27 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Overflowed_Buffer
Perhaps someday I will have time to read those, but not right now. Besides, I am happy with my opinions. This is not to say that they are right, or that yours are wrong, but I am simply happy with them. I hope that through more experience in evocation they will grow and become more enlightened, but I do not believe that these beings could exist outside us. Simple as that.
Beliefs
Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:38 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Nalyd23
Overflowed_Buffer wrote:You edited it as I was posting lol. I do not see how light can be compared to these entities. Light exists outside of us, it is not something we made up in our subconcious. There is no doubt in that (I hope;)).
Go look at this -
Does Light Exist Between Events?.
Spirits, whether they act one way or another, are either ouside us or imaginary. How can there be any compromise?
"Either/or" may be better replaced with "maybe" here. They could very well exist in both simultaneously like LadyH suggests. My angle, like I said above, is that the external element is neutral and may be the same energy either way, we decide how it appears, we give it it's attributes. Demons, angels, gods/goddesses, aliens, little people, faeries, etc. may all be manifestations of the same exact energy. We give it it's form. It is co-dependent on our interaction and participation for it's existence. What is it when we
in-voke these things? It is ALL internal then. I actually use forms of invocation more than evocation and am not really interested in invoking "demons" for any of my Magickal purposes (not usually a good idea anyway).
Sidenote : The word "imaginary" contains the root of Magick and one of it's relevant secrets.
Consider this as well.
Inside our head vs Outside our head
Many people have a difficult time telling the difference between what happens inside their heads as opposed to what happens outside their heads. And I don't mean just schizophrenics or psychopaths, but also some sane people. Most of us have had confusions about "reality" at some times in our lives. Since all sensations and information comes to the brain filtered, we experience all our perceptions in our head. To establish the difference between outside verses inside events, we usually derive, through intuition, some sort of comparative test. Most of our sensations instinctively tell us what occurs outside. As infants, we quickly learn that the sounds we hear in our heads actually emanate from the outside. We learn to manipulate objects through touch, observe movement through sight, etc. As we grow, we begin to form abstract thought and we attach these abstractions to our perceptions. Observation, reasoning, and experimentation gives us the means to define the difference between outside and inside.
Errors can creep into our thinking process. And from there it can invade our language system. This happens, virtually in any information system. If we do not correct these linguistic and logic errors, we may go for years propagating ancient errors without thinking about them. It seems obvious that this has already occurred to many cultures that have promoted dangerous belief sets. Although most will agree that dangerous beliefs present a threat and that we should do something about them, many beliefs that seem inconsequential receive no concern at all. These, seemingly, innocent beliefs act through our language system and can give us a false sense of "knowing."
To give an example, we usually think of color as "out there." We observe green foliage, blue skies, red apples, etc. Yet color, demonstrably, does not occur "out there," but rather, totally inside our heads. Matter contains no color. Color has no bases from the physics of light. Color, rather, describes a sensation. However, matter does "reflect" or produce light (photons). Our eyes absorb this energy and our brains interpret this information by tagging a "feeling" of color to it. Many times we express this perception through an error of language that projects color as "out there." We use ancient "essence" words like "is" and "be" that put mystical properties to events which occur only in our heads. For example, "the grass IS green" seems to project the property of "greenness" to an external plant form. Regardless of how much chlorophyll a plant may contain, it contains no "green." The color green occurs in our brains as a "tag" to an indirect reflective property of light. Yet our "essence" words and ideas continually fool us into thinking that things exist outside our heads, without the slightest evidence to support it. To help eliminate these "essence" verbs, we can simply replace them with descriptive verbs. Instead of saying "The grass is green," I might say, "The grass appears green (to me)." The descriptive verb "appears" connects a personal perception of green to the observer instead of an external event. Many sentences which use "to be" verbs produce false or misleading statements.
SOURCE
I recommend the entire article.
Beliefs
Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:50 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Gryzlgreedigutt
I believe that people believe what benefits them. If seeing them as internal aspects makes you feel safer using them, for example. you will tend to lean toward that position. If however the ceremonial aspect of things is important to you then the ritual itself and conjuration of an evoked seperate entity will benefit you. People claim their religious and spiritual beliefs come from the heart but we are cpapble of being much more practical then that! let me ask this: why not both?? "So above so below", right? Or in the Goetias' case "So below so Lower"? IOW both would have to be true for one to be true. I dunno this probably made no sesne but thats my two cents.
Beliefs
Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:59 am
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: fiat_lux_777
[QUOTE=Overflowed_Buffer]Fiat, I think it is very important whether they are internal or external, simply because if they are internal, there is really little point to going through all the work of Ceremonial Magic. If they are external, then we all have the power to do so much more, with their help. If we were just dealing with ourselves, there are certain things that are just not possible. However, entities outside of us would have such power to accomplish these impossible deeds.
[/QUOTE]
93
I think this point has been adequately explained but I would like to add the following -
Establishing arbitrary boundaries between internal/external is a false construct of the ego, wherein everything is categorised according to the duality of me/not me. As the Hermetic axiom states "The All is mind, the universe is mental".
93 93/93
Todd
Beliefs
Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:31 am
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: fatbastard
All opposites are reconciled. Somewhere. That somewhere is where the Absolute External gets looped into the Absolute Internal. Ouroboros. Go get a picture of him and stare untill it hits you.
Beliefs
Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:21 pm
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Overflowed_Buffer
Edit: Nevermind.
Beliefs
Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:09 am
by Occult Forum Archive
Original post: Specktackular
[QUOTE=Nalyd23] I actually use forms of invocation more than evocation and am not really interested in invoking "demons" for any of my Magickal purposes (not usually a good idea anyway).[/QUOTE]
I am curious to know what you invoke. Sharing is caring!

Don't mean to pry...