Why your magick does not work

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Original post: AstralMagickCraft

93

Its also really stupid, and in my opinion, presuming is the epitome of stupidity.

93 93/93

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Original post: Venefica

He did the ritual=the money came. What was supposed to happen? Some major discontinuity in time and space where he just had money where he had not before?

I agree, when I do a ritual and I get the desired result I call it a success. I can never know if it was magick or coincidence and I do not care as long as I got what I wanted. It is like the story of a young artist, he had reached the wall and could not paint, he was very depressed over it. But one day he went to a past life therapist, just for the hell of it. And she told him he had been this great artist once. Took him to a museum so he could see the marvelous paintings he had created. The artist went home and was inspired as after all the soul of a great artist lived in him right and he overcome his difficulties and became a successful painter. Was it true what the past life therapist said? Who knows, but the reading did work, the artist did get his inspiration back and that is what really matters. Is this story true. I do not know, but it serves to make a point.

And I think most people, or at least many, are either delusional or I must be really untalented with my magic (what is this? envy? =O), I was born amidst it, have my father to teach what I need, access to some obscure texts, can train without anyone disturbing me, I even seen some crazy shit in action and still I have a hard time doing many things, including among those, astral travelling, and I can easily count the times I had 100% success with an evocation.

First of all you are 18 and much the the most amazing things need a lifetime of study and you have not had that, no matter how much your father taught you. Also different pepole have talent for different things. Perhaps astral projection is not for you. I learned the pendulum since I was a child, and I can get decent replies or find someone's house on a map like a game but I have little success in finding out where in the house I have placed my earrings, or use it for any other practical purpose. I am plain and simple untalented with the pendulum.

Also, yes, too many young people saying too much, and exaggerating a lot, that's why I try not to say much, I'm just 18, I know I didn't train as much as I should, and I know my will is not strong as it could and I know I won't change it now because I'm more interested in... other things...

And you still wonder why some pepole have results you don't? It have to be that their claims are false. Sure there is many with bullshit claims. But most one meet is serious occultists, and if they claim they can astral project I will believe them. If they claim they can cast fireballs however, that is another story.

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Original post: Raziel.AE

[QUOTE=Venefica;363756]
First of all you are 18 and much the the most amazing things need a lifetime of study and you have not had that, no matter how much your father taught you. Also different pepole have talent for different things. Perhaps astral projection is not for you. I learned the pendulum since I was a child, and I can get decent replies or find someone's house on a map like a game but I have little success in finding out where in the house I have placed my earrings, or use it for any other practical purpose. I am plain and simple untalented with the pendulum.



And you still wonder why some pepole have results you don't? It have to be that their claims are false. Sure there is many with bullshit claims. But most one meet is serious occultists, and if they claim they can astral project I will believe them. If they claim they can cast fireballs however, that is another story.[/QUOTE]

I won't comment on your aggressive way of writing because that would be stupid, now...

lawl, yes, it could be that astral projection is harder for me than for other people, I won't deny that, because many things that are easy for me is hard for others, so I just won't push on that subject...

But yes, I said "I didn't train as much as I should, and I know my will is not strong as it could and I know I won't change it now because I'm more interested in... other things...", that does not mean I never trained and that my will is not strong, and that doesn't mean I can't see that people hide behind that "oh, astral projection(or whatever) is easier" just to say they can do something that others can't point a finger and dismiss as simple lie, I've known to far too many new agers (and "occultists") claiming the exact same thing and even I could tell their bs. What I said does mean that I don't believe your average 18 years old can do many of the things some say they can =P

I know I have more results than many here... >.< this is my ego talking...

And lol most I people I see here, and mostly anywhere on web, are not "serious occultists" so I wonder where you are finding them... And the ones that are, at least somewhat, serious seem to be going away in flocks...

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Original post: Jenfucius

[QUOTE=Centrix;363698]Two suggestions, Jen:

Start looking into learning formal logical structure (deductive vs. inductive, valid vs. invalid deduction, sound vs. unsound arguments, etc.).

Also, study Ayn Rand's philosophy, which will help you fine tune your BS detector also.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Centrix. I have soo much I want to read. I have hardly scratched the surface. I certainly add your suggestions to my list of reading materials.

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Original post: Jenfucius

[QUOTE=Paschal;363708]Jen:

The issue is belief. You cannot materialize what you do not completely believe. That is a difficult state because it does not involve magnetic concentration but a kind of knowing, soft, acceptance.[/QUOTE]
hymmm??? I dont know about that Paschal. I was a True Believer for many years and I have become more critical of certain things.

I remember many years ago in the news about an incident of a boy who dressed up as superman and jumped off a high rise balcony believing he could fly. He plunged to his death. He certainly beleived he could fly and wouldnt have jumped if he didnt.

A few months ago I was reading a news clipping about a man who had this amulet and believed it made him invulnerable to shape instruments and bullets. He dared someone to test him and they did. He died.

During the Chinese Boxer Rebellion according to historians there were many religious sects that believed wearing talismans would protect them from bullets. It did not. Its became a massacre.

Similary during the 1913 Moro uprising in the Philppines the Moros thought they were immune to American bullets. Like wise many died as a result.

My history isnt that good. I recall reading about the Aztecs and how they religously believed if they stopped human sacrifices the sun will not rise and the world would perish. Obviously it did not.

I remember years ago about a news article about this Christian from South Korea who stuck his arm in a lion's cage at a zoo believing his faith in Jesus would protect him. The lion practically tore his arm off infront of his girlfriend. (There was similar incident with some man in Taiwan but he wasnt seriously injured.)

Then there is also the case of movie actor Peter Sellers. Who after going to a psychic surgeon in the Philippines believed he was cured of a major illness. He died.

Not to say 60 Minutes television had a segment a few years ago about Christian Science........
People died needlessly when they should have just gone for regular medical treatment.

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Original post: Draginvry

[QUOTE=Jenfucius;363900]
I remember many years ago in the news about an incident of a boy who dressed up as superman and jumped off a high rise balcony believing he could fly.[/QUOTE]

This is why you practice your power to make sure you can control it in the physical world. For example, maybe jump off a half a foot ledge first. Then, if you fail to fly, at least you only bruise your elbow.

This is why I always practice caution with magick. I've never really tried flying, though. I've heard that the only thing necessary to fly is to throw yourself at the ground and miss.

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Original post: Jenfucius

[QUOTE=Draginvry;363904]..I've heard that the only thing necessary to fly is to throw yourself at the ground and miss.[/QUOTE]
Very funny! :p

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Original post: hunterwitch_bloodpact

i see wat every ones saying


but honestly U PRACTICE WHAT U PRACTICE


in a way i do some magick stuff, but i like to toy and perhaps understand it a lil bit and see what uses it can be used for directly. instead of doin it and wait


i meen in a way i help people out directly with it more so than the slow and tedious way


i meen yes i can gloat about my feats and such on what i can do but honestly does it really matter.


i meen i have no problems on sharing on how i do thing to give insight and prhaps help others,in such a way that they to can possibly adapt it.or tear it down and remake the system that i,my self can do

even though i dont do it often

its still there when i need it

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Original post: AETERNITAS0

[QUOTE=Draginvry;363904]This is why you practice your power to make sure you can control it in the physical world. For example, maybe jump off a half a foot ledge first. Then, if you fail to fly, at least you only bruise your elbow.

This is why I always practice caution with magick. I've never really tried flying, though. I've heard that the only thing necessary to fly is to throw yourself at the ground and miss.[/QUOTE]


Lots of wisdom may be gleamed from the Hitch hikers Guide...

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Original post: Draginvry

[QUOTE=AETERNITAS0;364095]Lots of wisdom may be gleamed from the Hitch hikers Guide...[/QUOTE]

Yes. I think Douglas Adams has more to offer to the occult than half the new age fluffbunny books ever written.

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Original post: Venefica

But yes, I said "I didn't train as much as I should, and I know my will is not strong as it could and I know I won't change it now because I'm more interested in... other things...", that does not mean I never trained and that my will is not strong, and that doesn't mean I can't see that people hide behind that "oh, astral projection(or whatever) is easier" just to say they can do something that others can't point a finger and dismiss as simple lie, I've known to far too many new agers (and "occultists") claiming the exact same thing and even I could tell their bs. What I said does mean that I don't believe your average 18 years old can do many of the things some say they can =P

I never meant to insult you and if you think the tone of my voice was aggressive I apologize. My point was just this, that even if you can not do a thing, do not mean that it is impossible or extremely rare 18 years old and that put a limit on how much experience you could have gotten. I also think it is futile to judge one's own abilities and accomplishments up against others, pepole are different, some learn quick, some learn slow and all will have talents in different areas.

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Original post: Raziel.AE

[QUOTE=Venefica;364124]I never meant to insult you and if you think the tone of my voice was aggressive I apologize. My point was just this, that even if you can not do a thing, do not mean that it is impossible or extremely rare 18 years old and that put a limit on how much experience you could have gotten. I also think it is futile to judge one's own abilities and accomplishments up against others, pepole are different, some learn quick, some learn slow and all will have talents in different areas.[/QUOTE]

It may not be impossible, but rare, yes... In this case I have to use my experiences to judge the whole, and it tells me people around 18 years old can't do most of these things, even though many cultivate the illusion that they can, and if they can, most usually only do it badly, you recognize this kind of people when you start questioning and analyzing their "skill" and it all falls apart.

...

Nothing else to say...

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Original post: S33k3R

To the original poster...

As a believer in the Taoist principle, I see it as making the seeming complex simple...its a bit like learning a martial art, the first few moves you learn will eventually be the only ones you require. However you have to first master an entire system, only to deduce and discard 95% of it...leaving you with the essence.

This principle is well understood, but for someone to come and tell me "listen sunshine, all you think your doing magically is just coincidence because you ain't got your black belt" is a load of bollocks.

Its a learning process, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't...just as some days you'll dominate the mat and other days you get you ass kicked.

I do empathize with your point that some pretty wild claims are made...so what? who cares...why let somebody else's delusion spoil your day. In anycase, who precisely the hell are you to pass judgment on another's beliefs..be they real or imaginary.

Then to whine about "not getting more positive feedback" WTF? If you want respect, show us great feats of fear inducing, no bullshit, balls to the wall sorcery. Up till then, quite pontificating.

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Original post: Tiswas

Well I have dabbled with plenty of success in the past, but my mind somewhat was clouded by stupid fantasies and crushes on the unobtainable. And beleive it or not, I am a woman in my 30's, and those thoughts tend to be really disruptive to my magicakal works.
Magick needs to believed by the Practioner for it to suceed.

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Original post: Venefica

We will have to agree to disagree with how rare Astral Projection is. But then you said yourself was 18. Do you think you are so rarely talented that few if any manage to get up to your level at your age?

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Original post: koolbear05

[QUOTE=Bird of Hermes;363377]Admittedly a quick generalization on my part, but you have to understand I have seen this scenario many times, perhaps you would like to elaborate on what about my statement was ignorant? If you would grace me with a contribution as opposed to your meaningless disdain, understand I am not seeking your approval or anyone elses.

The internet being what it is has a tendency to make people project what they think onto a post while they read it, again I am stating that I didn't mean to come off arrogant or superior in anyway, what I would genuinely want to see happen in the magickal community is to see people question themselves and start attempting to test what they practice.

It is just far to easy to attribute every general good thing that happens to someone as being the result of a successful magickal operation.[/QUOTE]

Why is my "disdain" meaningless? Others see, to find what you said distasteful.

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Original post: Malachite

Bird of Hermes this seems to be a discussion about technique. As many people of many ages have found over many thousands of years, what comes easily to some and appears to require little or no will at all, comes after many years of rigorous practice and training for others. Either way, techniques vary.
When people tell you that they have astrally projected with little or no training in the development of their will, I think the response should be encouragement and support, especially if this is a youngster. In addition, if you do know of books suitable for beginners in ceremonial magick, then you must recommend them to these talented young practitioners. If you find they then throw these aside and go on to accomplish traditionally 'difficult' magick whilst being superficially clueless, then you would do well to accept it. Being a practitioner and being wordly wise or highly trained do not necessarily go hand in hand, and many of these people come here to find a path or way, and that way may not be hermetics.
Many people have performed some extremely powerful and accomplished magickal acts, either wittingly or unwittingly, without ever having come across a teacher or a course of training....and yes, some of those people are very young indeed.

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Original post: Venefica

I agree. It is the same as with music. All Norwegian children learn to play a flute as part of the school correculum. Well at least all that go to the normal schools there are some private schools. Anyway for most this was easy they learned to play complex songs very quickly. But for me I had to work like hell just to be able to play a simple melody as I have coordination difficulties. With song however, my mother tell me that when I was two or something I was singing and playing, a local musician came by and heard me, and he said shit, that little kid can hold a note. I could not talk clearly but I could hold a tune and song have always come easy to me. I am talented in song and could sing in a clear note long before it was normal that children can that. But I had to work like hell just to play the most simple melody on my flute.

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Original post: Malachite

I am talented in song and could sing in a clear note long before it was normal that children can that.

I agree Venefica; it's worth thinking about what we consider it's normal for people to do. Taking into consideration the huge variety of people out there, and the huge potential they have as individuals, it's actually normal for people to do anything and everything; there aren't any limits other than the limits we impose on ourselves and others.

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Original post: Venefica

Yeah and like my mother do not know an invocation from an evocation or a athame from a Chakra wand but when I play with Energy and form psi balls, she go in and manipulate my balls, or picks them right out of my hands as if I was not even there. She is hugely talented with Energy work even if she have little knowledge in the occult other than that and some new age topics, Reiki and the use of the pendulum.

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Original post: esse quam videri

Bird of Hermes you are absolutely correct. I don't think people should be offended by what was said, seemed to be perfectly reasonable and informative. Not ignorant mud slinging.

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Original post: Venefica

You do not think it is insulting to come into a forum as a total new user and start to tell pepole one do not know they are doing things wrong? No? Well I do. I think it is quite insulting and more that that it is ignorant and arrogant.

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Original post: Please

The fact is, contrary to popular conceptualization, magick isn't black and white. The entirety of magickal practice is in one big shade of grey, and insisting that one technique or specific occult path is superior to another is like saying apples are better than oranges, or vice versa. I agree that there are some (quite a few) impressionable children, and just as many deluded idiots, who believe themselves Gods from half ass sigils and spells they've casted. This doesn't mean that every self taught magician is inferior to one with "proper training." Training is great, and having a good teacher is an experience that greatly aids the developmental process of any occult practitioner, but that doesn't mean the abilities of the self taught individual should be completely discredited.

Some of our greatest "thinkers" in history had little to no formal training.

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Original post: Venefica

The fact is, contrary to popular conceptualization, magick isn't black and white. The entirety of magickal practice is in one big shade of grey, and insisting that one technique or specific occult path is superior to another is like saying apples are better than oranges, or vice versa.

Very true, it is like arguing with color is the prettiest, my favorite is purple so I would say purple is the prettiest, you might prefer red and think that is more pretty, magick is very individual, and what is perfect for one practitioner may not work for another.

I agree that there are some (quite a few) impressionable children, and just as many deluded idiots, who believe themselves Gods from half ass sigils and spells they've casted. This doesn't mean that every self taught magician is inferior to one with "proper training."

That is right. I agree completely with this.

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Original post: shadow flame

well, why couldn't magick work retroactively?
reality is weird, to put it simply