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I responded in a manner I felt to be appropriate given the OP's original post. Said OP then said later on, that they felt a less aggressive method was required after being warned by their guide to "Beware of unintended consequences!"

I fail to see why, purely because someone is a chaote (or insert your preferred label) they must jump in with a more aggressive and assertive approach. This 'softer' method which has been offered will still change the situation the OP's friend find's themself in. You also have to consider, the OP is doing this to aid a non-magickal user. IF this has been the OP themself asking for help for a situation they, personally, themselves found themselves in, then perhaps you would have found a more aggressive approach (closer to what you feel should have been offered) would have been suggested.

Chaos magick and the 'path' of it is entirely indvidual and down to the person walking it. I'll also just take a moment to point out that the amount of time someone has been practising isn't really that relevent now is it? There are many things I am superior at when compared to those who have been doing it longer than myself.

Oh and with regards to the moral codes - We still live within a society as such moral codes are still entirely relevant and should be taken into account when conducting ourselves and working with the energies etc. Yes, we are all entitled to our opinions, methods, etc which leaves me entitled to find your reckless and condescending attitude just that. I do however find it rather amusing how you appear to be pushing for chaotes to follow a set paradigm and path as you see it - which goes entirely against what the chaote path is.

Interesting debate!

At the heart of my initial question was the difference between working on yourself and working on/for someone else.

For some there is no difference, for others a gulf full of ethical and moral questions.

I suppose I am an eclectic magician, through the years adding various techniques to my tool belt. I don't put myself in a category so I am not a Chaos Magician nor to I belong to the fluffy bunny new age gang. Maybe it is inevitable that I will get shot at by the purists - no problem!

This thread has truly helped me to get a clearer idea of how I can best help this young woman and that's all that matters. Thanks to ALL correspondents - I look forward to more of the same!

Albion

Chaos magic is a system intended to achieve results, not sit on your ass, be lazy and hope things change. Also, you INTERPRETED his guide saying "be aware of unintended consequences" as be less aggressive, the OP did not state as much. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, however lazy and wrong it may be. As for the time factor, you asked for my credentials to speak on the topic, and then you want to whine about it. Morals are a part of human society, and yes, when dealing directly and publicly, we choose to follow them, or face the responsibility of not, though things of a magical nature adhere to no such control code, and need not have such applied to it. Things of many natures will never advance, and never change if people don't start standing up and being the change they want to see. Start applying and actively doing, not just slipping around in the cracks and shadows and hoping things will be different some day.

Well now you must be one hell of a magician to speak of me in such tones to display you supposedly know all about me. You've gone from claiming white light fluffy, to now I'm lazy. Well bravo, what will you find out about me next?

That you fail to come up with rational retorts to the rational assertions I have provided. Shall I presume then that you yield the field, or shall we continue to banter witticisms?

You call descending into open, blatant insults rational? If perhaps you had of presented your thoughts, theories and methods in a rational, calm and constructive manner than this would be logical yes.

At no point have I whined, I have merely put forward my interpretations on what has been said. You're the one throwing around the insults here. You're making a great many assumptions about both myself and how I do things - just from one single example I have given someone on how I understood the situation they presented to me. That's not rational, that's presumptious, arrogant and really rather foolish.

Oh and yes, to be warned about the consequences would suggest that you at least start with a less aggressive method; at least until you have looked deeper into the situation to further understand said warning and possible consequences.

You have brought up the concept of lazy, not pushing boundaries, being fluffy, restricted and other such things, a number of times. All because of my one, single, response? Dear me, if you react so quickly to everything, with so little research and understanding, you really can't be very tactical and must make a great deal of mistakes.

Tsk tsk, still don't get english, do you? Look at what I said, I attacked your ideas, and your recommendations, not you. If you took insult from such, sounds like a guilty conscience to me. Too bad, so sad, enjoy the suffering you bring yourself. As for rushing in without research, how silly of you to think such, simply because you take so long to research things, and have the memory for what you have read of a goldfish apparently. Mistakes are only mistakes if you don't intend to do something. Unexpected outcomes happen, and often teach more than a simple success does. With an unexpected result, you get to examine things and find out what part or parts caused the result to be different. All you can extrapolate from success is that this combination worked. B O R I N G ! Now, insults, if you really like, I could start slinging "personal insults" and you could find out how fun that really can be. I assure you, it is quite another level from the minor fun that has been going on. So, why are you letting some silly fun on an internet forum get your blood pressure in such a toss?

You think you managed to raise my blood pressure? Such arrogance.

This is merely a small fragment of entertainment.

Gentlemen, chill a little bit, please [tongue]

The debate is interesting, but deviating further from the topic with every post. Would you guys (shenFyre and Nyte) mind taking the debate to a new thread?

Vashta

A timely and welcome intervention there thanks.

Much on this thread has been very useful and certainty thought-provoking. My propensity to grab useful bits and pieces from various areas of magic surely fits at least part of the job description of a Chaos Magician I would have thought!

Be that as it may, I charged the sigil drawn by the lady this morning and am now working on Plan B which is setting up a reflective barrier.

I do intend to create a servitor (Plan C) to influence the guy so I guess the above discussion has caused a shift in me. Thanks to ALL concerned for that!

ALBION