Hunting for Food

[manonthepath]

Historically and culturally most magick associated with hunting is shamanistic in nature. Some Amazonian tribes use a technique whereby they communicate with the animals through their dreams, the night before, and make arrangements where they will meet them during the hunt the next day.

By your point of view, you may get some use out of Tom Brown's "The Tracker" series. Though non magickal in nature, the talent of tracking takes on a transcendent mystical quality, the animal is viewed as sacred and too valued to waste any component.

Magickally speaking, there are numerous deities and spirits associated with the hunt which may be petitioned and invoked. Also consider magick to enhance your luck or to take on or enhance desirable qualities.

I'm very familiar with Tom Brown's works, including his field Guide. He does not advocate killing for sport nor bushwacking.

[magari]

Sitting in a tree stand, having cameras and technology help you and bushwacking a creature from a distance does not make one a man. It does not make one a hunter. It makes one a bushwacker. Just like some bully mugger out of the gutter. Fathers and sons might be better advised to bond in some way that does not come with so high a price tag for a fellow being. People can be so fucking selfish! If you NEED to kill for food, no problem. We have supermarkets FULL of food and don't need to cause any more suffering than we already are. How many TONS of meat has to be thrown away because it goes past its date in a store? How many creatures suffer from the cruel systems we've put in place and allow to operate because of our selfish, lazy indifference? People seem to associate hunting with courage and skill, while some have even called it a "Right of Passage." The truth is that some around us enjoy the power of safely killing something that can't fight back. This is known as a "Cheap kill" or a "Pussy kill." If that's what you are, so be it, but don't fool yourselves for an instant that you are something worthy of merit or respect. Put your asses on a Bosnian battlefield and put a knife in your hand and tell you to go out into no-man's land and not to come back without someone's fucking head and then we'll see how many of you "Man up"

Have you fought in eastern europe?

I've traveled all over, but wasn't involved in any of those conflicts because at the time I believe I was 4 years old.
During my first deployment to Afghanistan I buddied up with an old Czech sniper who fought in Bosnia. Told me a lot of stories.

Like I said. Hunting was a lot more honorable back when we had spears.

Our society does seem to lack proper rites of passage, however I would say the father who takes his son hunting is doing a lot better than the one dropping his kid off at soccer practice with a credit card and a cell phone. I am not referring to the hunters who have all but taken nature out of hunting. I know a lot of people who have given up on the tree stand.

In regards to the meat wasted in supermarkets, its not the hunter's fault. In fact, all the money generated from the "sport" goes right back into preserving the herds, fish, and the land. At least, thats how it is where I live.

[RoseRed]

I really have no desire to get deep into this conversation.

I just wanted to say that after living in a very rural farming area - I have a much different perspective of hunting than I did when I lived in the suburbs.

[Shinichi]

He does not advocate killing for sport nor bushwacking.

The only person in this thread discussing those things is you. And that one strange post from Haelos, though I still can't tell if he was serious or if that was another failed attempt at internet sarcasm.

Every other post has been about hunting for food (you know, the title of the thread?), and how to do so in a way that may be considered reasonable, natural, or spiritual -- that is, ways which taken into account the sentient feelings of the animal, and acknowledges both the animal and land spirits. If you have nothing reasonable and respectable to add to that discussion, then I don't know why you're in this thread.



~:Shin:~

[magari]

Trapping is a real art in my opinion and probably one of the most sustainable forms of hunting small game.

[Ramscha]

Well, some words about all this stuff of honor combined with hunting...

I suppose that back then hunting came before honor. Hunters cannot eat honor. Honor is fancy stuff valued by warriors and people believing in warriors and there likes. But hunters are not always warriors and the other way round. A warrior is not always a hunter either.

Hunting is not just limited to chasing something to death with a spear or a bow or whatever else you have in your hand. Ambushing same as trapping are valuable as well.

Hunting as a single person is inpractical. As long as you hunt small fries (bunnies and birds) it is fine, but as soon as you move to bigger catches you most likely won't be able to avoid wasting stuff. Stuff you don't want to eat or cannot eat, stuff you cannot store for ever or are not able use (processing hides, tendons and even bones takes practice and skill as well as a lot of time, you cannot master everything which is the reason people lived in groups and clans). You may consider raising pigs if you are able and have space for that. That saves you a lot of hunting time and gives you the possibility to put a lot of things (like tendons and bad meat or vegetables) to use you would have wasted otherwise. There is a reason why pigs were formerly used as living trashcans.

The spiritual part is up to you. You may get some advice here but consider that this is strongly based on our own individual backgrounds and believes.
If you have a neck for anchestral research, look back where your roots are coming from, that might give you a clue how to live "properly" (according to your own terms suiting yourself best) or otherwise looking for the roots of the people on whose land you live in case you cannot chase back your own lineage.
Those are just tips where you could have a look, of course there is much more and I guess you already got a good amount of input how to possibly proceed.

Ramscha

[magari]

I think its possible honor arrived as soon as mankind was able to express and understand integrity.

Or perhaps as soon as we started wearing animal skins as a sign of status. The honorable ones being those who had the skill to harvest creatures of might or rarity. This could be translated into one's ability to provide for their family. This could have caused feelings of pride and I'm sure a dude wearing the skin of a sabertooth tiger could command some respect in the land of stone weapons.

[RoseRed]

I finally saw the new Hercules movie (with The Rock) last night. He certainly commanded respect when he pulled up his lion's head hood.

Honor is fancy stuff valued by warriors and people believing in warriors and there likes.

Really?

[Shinichi]

I think its possible honor arrived as soon as mankind was able to express and understand integrity.

Or perhaps as soon as we started wearing animal skins as a sign of status. The honorable ones being those who had the skill to harvest creatures of might or rarity. This could be translated into one's ability to provide for their family. This could have caused feelings of pride and I'm sure a dude wearing the skin of a sabertooth tiger could command some respect in the land of stone weapons.

But the dude that killed the saber tooth isn't the one that made clothes out of the skin.

His wife did. [razz]



~:Shin:~

[RoseRed]

Actually, I think Honor was around before that. Honor is a force.

Some people are honorable and some people aren't. I suspect that's always been the way of things - even before man created the concept of integrity.

[magari]

I think its possible honor arrived as soon as mankind was able to express and understand integrity.

Or perhaps as soon as we started wearing animal skins as a sign of status. The honorable ones being those who had the skill to harvest creatures of might or rarity. This could be translated into one's ability to provide for their family. This could have caused feelings of pride and I'm sure a dude wearing the skin of a sabertooth tiger could command some respect in the land of stone weapons.

But the dude that killed the saber tooth isn't the one that made clothes out of the skin.

His wife did. [razz]



~:Shin:~

Damn straight she did. [moresarcasm]

[Ramscha]

Actually, I think Honor was around before that. Honor is a force.

Some people are honorable and some people aren't. I suspect that's always been the way of things - even before man created the concept of integrity.

I agree that my definition of honor as fancy warrior stuff was a little plain. But isn't it a human value construct? How can honor be a force except in the sociological sense? Could you explain the details?

Ramscha

[manonthepath]

All concepts are human constructs. Honor is the sister of trust. I'll assume we all agree on a definition of trust here, so I'll skip that. What we're dealing with are likely predictable outcomes. If I trust you, that means I think it likely that I can predict your behavior. Honor is borne out of this. Honor is an internal set of values that function to give us predictable behaviors, which will increase our value to others, because they are able to predict our behavior. Looking inside we can have a personal honor, which allows us to predict our own behavior. This can increase our value to ourselves. Of course this is a construct and can even become a prison if we are trapped by a value system that is designed to manipulate our spirits and intellects. It can help us or hurt us depending on our level of awareness, maturity, and level of consiousness. Honor can be a strong bond between those with similar belief sets and as I said, a basis for trust.

Honor is an energetic force in many ways. Looking at it from a perspective of Jungian archetypes may help us to see the societal or extrinsic mode of honor inflicted on us from outside of ourselves. This can often lead to hollow bosoms as it has been referred to as is the case when honor is not internalized. From the perspective of Taoist alchemy honor can be viewed as a dynamic of energetic functions of resonances operating in , between, and independent of the individual. Energies can do and be many things due to resonance, and are able to alter their resonances to interact with us. Sometimes these energies bestow their resonances on us which can take the form of growth. Sometimes not. Just as some energies have a hateful resonance or a loving resonance, they can have everything in between. Honor is a resonance that can be an aspect of a greater basic resonance, which will enable an energy to feed off of us. There's much much more to it, but I'm lazy and don't feel like writing any more. I hope this is helpful to you Ramscha.

[RoseRed]

It's kinda similar to the Current. The Current is an energetic force that witches tap into to wield. When you fully stand in Honor you also carry with you the strength of those that came before you.

[findingtruth]

Wow! Lots of posts since I was last on here, I thank you all for that As for honor, it is a very interesting concept and am very curious as to how certain groups of people define it. Personally, however, I'm not extremely concerned with my own honor, I simply wish to honor nature. Maybe that in it's own way is honorable, but it's not really up to me to say if I am or not Sorry if I'm just repeating what someone else already stated, there were quite a few replies to keep up with.

RoseRed, could you give me some reliable sources about the Current? It sounds very interesting but don't want to get a book/site with faulty information.

[RoseRed]

Ramcsha was right when he said it was a Warrior's thing. It's not what most people think it is. And there are times that it can be a difficult burden to bear. It's not tiptoeing through the daisy's. That's for damn sure.

There is no dishonor in honoring nature. Having integrity, carrying yourself with Honor, those are honorable things. I'm speaking of a very specific current/force.

And you know what? Most people aren't really concerned with their own honor. They have their own moral code and they live by that. When you accept people for who they are and learn what their personal code it - then you'll know shat to expect from them. This is the trust that manonthepath is speaking of.

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findingtruth - hang out with some Trad Witches. You'll find out lots.

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manonthepath - I just read you post above mine. I had the window open for hours before I finally had a chance to reply and didn't check before I shut down the computer. I know it's been there for a little bit but I've only just now see it.

You know goddamned well that that's only PART of it! That's the hard fucking part. That's the burden part of it. It SUX! beyond belief. I know that. I've lived it. You are a Brother-In-Arms. I am Honorbound to remind you of the other parts. Your moniker is so brilliantly appropriate for where you are right now. You're on the path. You are a man. You want to understand. Have you considered that maybe you're looking in the wrong places? I have your back because you are my Brother.

[Shinichi]

Actually, I think Honor was around before that. Honor is a force.

Some people are honorable and some people aren't. I suspect that's always been the way of things - even before man created the concept of integrity.

I agree that my definition of honor as fancy warrior stuff was a little plain. But isn't it a human value construct? How can honor be a force except in the sociological sense? Could you explain the details?

Ramscha

In a lot of old school, mostly the shamanistic paradigms (or so I've noticed), honor is treated as a soul-force similar to Luck that in my own personal work is the Teutonic soul-force called Hamingja. Some modern practitioners, like Raven Kaldera, use old terms like Maegan to describe it since we don't really have much Old Norse literature to give us terminology for things like this. Regardless of what word you use for it, I think Kaldera described the thing itself quite well:

12. Maegen

(Old English maegen, pronounced maah-gen, with a as in pack)

Maegen is a concept that most modern people have lost, although the idea of "honor" seems to be a remnant of this idea. The concept of maegen rests on the idea that there is tangible personal power that is earned by deeds of honor: walking one's talk, giving one's word and keeping it. Every time you break your word, you lose maegen. If you continually shy away from commitments, never actually putting yourself in a position where you need to be held to your word, you fail to build up a supply of maegen and thus are not in a much better position than the individual who breaks their promises. You can also lose maegen by committing unethical and harmful acts against others, and gain it by refusing the temptation to do those things when the chance is given to you.

Maegen is more than just mere social capital. While showing oneself to be a keeper of one's word is good for building public trust, the concept of maegen stresses that this is a power to be built even in isolation, and that it is not dependent on the opinions of others. The idea is that every time you give your word and keep it, you build up a fund of power behind your word that gives it more cosmic impact. In this way, the maegen supports the vili. One's maegen can often be sensed by others, and those with strong maegen will be instinctively trusted more by those who sense it. It's more than just reputation, it's an actual force attached to the soul that can be felt and used.

http://www.northernshamanism.org/shaman ... l-map.html (the bold is mine)

I have plenty of criticisms for Kaldera's work, but he has his moments. [gz]



~:Shin:~

[RoseRed]

Yes, he does.

[Ramscha]

I see, thanks Shinichi. I am familiar with Kaldera and yes, he definitly has his moments once in a while.

Though what Kaldera refers to sounds similar to the term of honor, it reminds me of something. Lets say people who have honor have a certain "vibe". I still think that honor is something very subjective and that it is not just bound to moral ethic codes.

However, I suppose the best Example for this Maegen thing is Hagen of Tronege/Högni in the Nibelung saga. At least that is the only figure in which the context of the parameter of "honor" mentioned above makes a perfect sense to me. As a certain vibe, not bound to a certain codex (as Hagen demonstrates).

You gave me something to think, thank you Rose and Shinichi

[Shinichi]

I don't think this form of honor is explicitly bound to morality and ethics, though philosophically I don't think morality and ethics have anything to do with each other either.

Think of Hannibal Lecter. Certainly not the most moral man you'll ever hear about, but he does have a certain sense of honor. He is what he is, he knows what he is, and he simply is as such. He can be a trickster towards others, like Loki, but internally he is always true to his own word and nature. It's not just a matter of socially knowing what to expect from him either, because Hannibal is hardly a character that can be called predictable even at the best of times. Nor is it purely a matter of social trust, because most people wouldn't really trust a guy like Hannibal Lecter if they know who he really is, despite his almost magical ability to get in your head.

Yet, in Silence of The Lambs, think about when Clarice visited Hannibal in prison for the first time. After Hannibal's prison-neighbor "assaulted" Clarice, Hannibal quite literally talked the man to death for doing something so rude, for something that Hannibal considered "dishonorable."

When you think of things like this, Honor is hardly a black-and-white issue of social morality in any circumstance. As a soul-force, it's something a lot more complex, and in a more spiritual sense it may even be compared to a tangible measure of how strongly someone is in-tune to what Crowley called the True Will. It's not just a matter of knowing your Self, it's a matter of being your Self.



~:Shin:~

[RoseRed]

But different groups of people have different Codes of Honor. Honor is that force that binds or holds a particular group together with a codex or list of the moral code that's followed. The more specific the list the smaller the group.

You'll find different Codes of Honor in everything from Warrior's to Wiccans to Vegans. Perhaps Code of Honor is too strong of a phrase for the message I'm trying to convey but every group has it's 'codex'.

I believe that it's a force, like the Current, that runs through everyone's lives. Some feel it more strongly than others. I think it has to do with how we're all built slightly differently. We all have Gifts in different areas and in varying strengths.

[manonthepath]

Thank you RR for the kindness. Here is another important thought to keep in mind. One I feel may be important to all pagans irregardless of their paths:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLZ_Zy1VhMI

[RoseRed]

I rarely check out videos but I'm glad I did this time. I'll have to listen to more of their work. I liked it!

And you're welcome.

[Horny Goat]

How's this for an example of how to hunt 'spiritually':

In 1864, in the French province of Le Var, near the little village of Brignoles, lived a peasant named Jacques Pelissier, who made a living by killing birds by simple will-power. His case is reported by the well-known Dr. d'Alger, at whose request the singular hunter gave exhibitions to several scientific men, of his method of proceeding. The story is told as follows: "At about fifteen or twenty paces from us, I saw a charming little meadow-lark which I showed to Jacques. 'Watch him well, monsieur,' said he, 'he is mine.' Instantly stretching his right hand toward the bird, he approached him gently. The meadow-lark stops, raises and lowers his pretty head, spreads his wings, but cannot fly; at last he cannot make a step further and suffers himself to be taken, only moving his wings with a feeble fluttering. I examine the bird, his eyes are tightly closed and his body has a corpse-like stiffness, although the pulsations of the heart are very distinct; it is a true cataleptic sleep, and all the phenomena incontestably prove a magnetic action. Fourteen little birds were taken in this way, within the space of an hour; none could resist the power of Master Jacques, and all presented the same cataleptic sleep; a sleep which, moreover, terminates at the will of the hunter, whose humble slaves these little birds have become.

"A hundred times, perhaps, I asked Jacques to restore life and movement to his prisoners, to charm them only half way, so that they might hop along the ground, and then again bring them completely under the charm. All my requests were exactly complied with, and not one single failure was made by this remarkable Nimrod, who finally said to me: 'If you wish it, I will kill those which you designate without touching them.' I pointed out two for the experiment, and, at twenty-five or thirty paces distance, he accomplished in less than five minutes what he had promised." *

[manonthepath]

Charming story.