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What does teaching mean to you, Desecrated?
Certainly many lessons cannot be taught, but are lived.
I don't mean to be challenging you, I am just curious.

Deathquota wrote:What does teaching mean to you, Desecrated?
Certainly many lessons cannot be taught, but are lived.
I don't mean to be challenging you, I am just curious.

For me, when I first got my students, I wanted to create a relaxed environment where the children could feel safe.
What this means is that it is perfectly fine to fuck up completely. You wont get penalized for making mistakes. In fact, I rather encourage that you make mistake instead of not trying at all.

After that it just comes to show them how and have them repeat it. Allow for personal style and interpretations but always try and improve the form.

But to able to do this, I have to have a genuine interest in teaching. Because it takes an awful amount of time. And on more then one occasion I've had to double as both friend, parent, psychiatrist and doctor.

So there is a lot of responsibility and well-will that goes into it. And it is a long-term commitment.
I had my first class of students 17 years ago and I would probably head over and help them if they called me tomorrow.



And that is what I meant being fit for teaching. Not everybody is a good teacher. Even some of the most well-read, most experienced creative geniuses are not good teachers.
And not all good teacher are geniuses either

I think you fit for teaching us :DDD

Desecrated wrote: And that is what I meant being fit for teaching. Not everybody is a good teacher. Even some of the most well-read, most experienced creative geniuses are not good teachers.
And not all good teacher are geniuses either

I completly agree with that one. Having a teacher who knows a lot isn't of any help if he does not know how to convey this knowledge and how to deal with his pupils. Not that it is an easy job, as a former student I can say that much [bummed]

Atzmuth wrote:I think you fit for teaching us :DDD

He said it himself, being a teacher is a responsibility, a burden and hard. It should be the teacher himself deciding if he teaches, not the pupils telling him to teach.

Ramscha

Atzmuth wrote:But It would be better if we had our own group

Who do you mean: "We?" If you mean the entire forum community all I can say is that it would be a monumental undertaking given the many paths and egos. There are so many excellent sources out there that give free education out such as the "Circle Sanctuary." I'm not affiliated with them in any way, but have encountered members over the years. Many are highly skilled practitioners of a variety of arts.

By we I mean the entire forum. And I dont care about other groups I am talking about making our group. I dont care about AMORC etc etc I care about forming a group for this forum.

People, learn from one another. You don't need a guru. For one thing, gurus don't really exist - if someone claims to be all-knowing in the ridiculously huge thing that the occult has become, then he or she is usually after your money. This forum is literally packed with information. All of you come from different paradigms - teach one another.

Atzmuth wrote:I think you fit for teaching us :DDD

I don't know enough about the occult to teach and I lack years of practical training.

I know this forum contains a lot of knowledge about occult but by making a teaching group we wont be only teaching other people we will also be getting that knowledge into shape by regulating it. I still think its a great idea to form such a group and if you think deeply you can see the benefits too.

Atzmuth wrote:I know this forum contains a lot of knowledge about occult but by making a teaching group we wont be only teaching other people we will also be getting that knowledge into shape by regulating it. I still think its a great idea to form such a group and if you think deeply you can see the benefits too.

I already understand the benefits of such a venture, I just don't see how you can put such a thing into practice in the way you intend to do so. I'm a qualified and registered teacher in the mundane world. I have studied the occult for a very long time. If anything, such a study has shown me how little I really know of the topic - the subject is extremely vast.

Creating an independent school of magickal learning on a free internet forum has certain problems that would need to be overcome, namely:

1. What benefit would a teacher gain from teaching? In the mundane world, teachers get paid to teach. Are you willing to pay someone to teach you things?
2. What criteria would you use to make sure that prospective students weren't just trolls? Lots of trolls online.
3. If you're simply going to get everyone to share their own knowledge, then why complicate matters? You already have a forum packed with information, why do you need to have a special area for learning when there is so much information already here?
4. Who will set the curriculum, decide who is and isn't worthy to teach, ensure that students attend, monitor quality of lessons, and ensure that homework is completed? What will you do with students and/or teachers who prove to be incompetent?

I'm not knocking your ideas Atzmuth, I just want you to expand upon them a bit, and to think how best to implement them. If this project gets off the ground it's going to have one shot - if it turns into one big cumbersome mess of elitism and vainglorious examples of one-upmanship then what will you have achieved?

Thanks for your comment. First of all participation in this project will be voluntary so no payment will be done since it will be free for all members of the forum. Second since you mentioned how vast occult is, I bring you the solution: participants are first taught the basics then they are given paths to continue on after choosing their paths members get their lessons accoring to their arena of study after finishing it they may go back and request another area to study on. And let me clear, this group of course will not be seperate from the forum. In adition, about choosing teachers, experianced people here like Nahemah(I dont really remember the name, sorry) can gather a council and choose the best teachers that will suit us. And everything will be in the hands of moderators since it wont be seprate from the forum. Plus both the partcipation in the forum will be higher and more people will be able to learn about occult just by being a member of the group rather than joining groups like AMORC etc. and they wont be paying something. Guys think about it, Occult for all.

Please let me help you develop this idea, Atzmuth. Again, I am not putting your idea down, it is a very good one but it needs further development.

Atzmuth wrote:First of all participation in this project will be voluntary so no payment will be done since it will be free for all members of the forum.

So what benefit do the teachers gain from giving out all this information for free? You might have noticed, there are a lot of extremely good authors out there, but hardly any of them give out their life's work for nothing. Robert Anton Wilson, Jaq Hawkins, Peter Carroll, and several other magicians started up a school of magick a while back - you have to pay to go there, the people teaching you are doing so because they want to spread their knowledge and experience, but they're also offering you their time - time that could be spent doing other things. Even the best occultists have to pay rent, buy food, support their kids through college.

Atzmuth wrote: Second since you mentioned how vast occult is, I bring you the solution: participants are first taught the basics then they are given paths to continue on after choosing their paths members get their lessons accoring to their arena of study after finishing it they may go back and request another area to study on.

Again, who teaches them this? Who sets the curriculum and decides what's best for their education and development? Are there exams set, and if so who sets them?

Atzmuth wrote: In adition, about choosing teachers, experianced people here like Nahemah(I dont really remember the name, sorry) can gather a council and choose the best teachers that will suit us.

Nahemah and Vashta both have a massive amount of knowledge and experience in the occult, yes. They both have contacts in the occult world, like I do. Assuming that they could gather an eclectic group of occultists who could cover every and all possible branch of occult study is insane though. I could probably get a couple of top Chaos Magicians to show up maybe, and ask them to give you pointers. Asking them to teach you extensive and all encompassing information regarding their own studies would be pushing it. And that's just one specific field - where do we find all the other specialists? Do we place adverts asking for gurus from every known religion, belief, and occult practice to come flocking to our aid?

Atzmuth wrote: And everything will be in the hands of moderators since it wont be seprate from the forum.

Which assumes that the moderators know more than the teachers, which is doubtful. Again, you're asking a group of specialists to come here and give you free education while operating under the dictates of people they a) don't know, and b) probably don't respect.

Atzmuth wrote: Plus both the partcipation in the forum will be higher and more people will be able to learn about occult just by being a member of the group rather than joining groups like AMORC etc. and they wont be paying something. Guys think about it, Occult for all.

Why will the participation be higher? You would need to convince a lot of people that this will benefit them more than studying a reputable and well developed system of magick. It's common knowledge that people assume that something they have to pay for will be of better quality than something they can get for free. How will you advertise such a venture? Advertising on social media costs money - will you be willing to stump up the $20 a day to advertise on Facebook?

Like I said, good idea, sodding hard to put into practice. Keep the ideas coming, Atzmuth. [grin]

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:
1. What benefit would a teacher gain from teaching? In the mundane world, teachers get paid to teach. Are you willing to pay someone to teach you things?
2. What criteria would you use to make sure that prospective students weren't just trolls? Lots of trolls online.
3. If you're simply going to get everyone to share their own knowledge, then why complicate matters? You already have a forum packed with information, why do you need to have a special area for learning when there is so much information already here?
4. Who will set the curriculum, decide who is and isn't worthy to teach, ensure that students attend, monitor quality of lessons, and ensure that homework is completed? What will you do with students and/or teachers who prove to be incompetent?

I'm not knocking your ideas Atzmuth, I just want you to expand upon them a bit, and to think how best to implement them. If this project gets off the ground it's going to have one shot - if it turns into one big cumbersome mess of elitism and vainglorious examples of one-upmanship then what will you have achieved?

1. I learned more in 6 months teaching the basic to kids then I learned in 4 year with a teacher.
Teaching is the ultimate learning experience

2. Simple written test, simple initiation, just like every other organization. "Go out and by that book, tell me a joke, write a short essay on why you want to learn."
It should be easy to judge a persons will from that.

3. The idea he is proposing is that we all follow the same path. I can share everything I know, and you share everything you know, but then the forum will just be flooded by random thoughts and idea.
The good part of a joint study group is that we all work on the same exercise together, we all share our thoughts on that exercise and we all try to reach the same goal.

4. This is why I suggested a private part of the forum. If somebody is making a mess, simple ban them. It also makes it easier to monitor because it's all in one place instead of spread out through the entire forum.

Thank you for contributing to this, Desecrated. I've added my thoughts below.

Desecrated wrote:

Clockwork_Ghost wrote: 1. What benefit would a teacher gain from teaching? In the mundane world, teachers get paid to teach. Are you willing to pay someone to teach you things?

1. I learned more in 6 months teaching the basic to kids then I learned in 4 year with a teacher.
Teaching is the ultimate learning experience

As I've already said previously, I am also a trained teacher. I agree that you learn a lot more about a subject when you try to teach it to others, but what is being suggested is that we get experts in their fields to teach what they know to people. I would agree that people who were advanced in their studies concerning a certain paradigm may be interested in sharing their knowledge so they can better ensure that they too fully understand that material (much like graduate students teach tutorials at university), but what is being suggested here is that we get someone who is both recognised as a leading figure, and who themselves is more than likely to fully understand what they are teaching already, to give away that information for free.

The idea that there are gurus sitting on top of mountains, waiting to give away their knowledge to those brave enough to make the climb is a very poetic one, but personal experience suggests that there are very few truly altruistic people out there. Also, several traditional systems demand payment for services rendered - it is part of the core tradition itself. Examples of this are Palo Mayombe, Haitian Vodou, and Santeria. Not paying for such knowledge is considered an insult.

Desecrated wrote:

Clockwork_Ghost wrote: 2. What criteria would you use to make sure that prospective students weren't just trolls? Lots of trolls online.

2. Simple written test, simple initiation, just like every other organization. "Go out and by that book, tell me a joke, write a short essay on why you want to learn."
It should be easy to judge a persons will from that.

Who would assess these applications?

Desecrated wrote:

Clockwork_Ghost wrote: 3. If you're simply going to get everyone to share their own knowledge, then why complicate matters? You already have a forum packed with information, why do you need to have a special area for learning when there is so much information already here?

3. The idea he is proposing is that we all follow the same path. I can share everything I know, and you share everything you know, but then the forum will just be flooded by random thoughts and idea.
The good part of a joint study group is that we all work on the same exercise together, we all share our thoughts on that exercise and we all try to reach the same goal.

Now I'm confused, and it seems like people are talking at crossed-purposes. In some places it's being suggested that this be an all-encompassing school of many paradigms, where people choose what they want to learn and a teacher with that information then teaches them, but you seem to be suggesting that there only be one subject which everyone follows together. With that option in mind, who decides what the students study? How do you then decide as a group what comes next?

Desecrated wrote:

Clockwork_Ghost wrote: 4. Who will set the curriculum, decide who is and isn't worthy to teach, ensure that students attend, monitor quality of lessons, and ensure that homework is completed? What will you do with students and/or teachers who prove to be incompetent?

4. This is why I suggested a private part of the forum. If somebody is making a mess, simple ban them. It also makes it easier to monitor because it's all in one place instead of spread out through the entire forum.

I agree with you here, though I don't understand the mechanics of creating such a place on the forum. I'll have a talk to the admin staff and see if this is possible.

Keep these ideas coming - like I've said, I'm not opposing what you are saying, I'm just trying to get you to expand on your ideas to make sure such a thing is even possible.

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:
The idea that there are gurus sitting on top of mountains, waiting to give away their knowledge to those brave enough to make the climb is a very poetic one, but personal experience suggests that there are very few truly altruistic people out there. Also, several traditional systems demand payment for services rendered - it is part of the core tradition itself. Examples of this are Palo Mayombe, Haitian Vodou, and Santeria. Not paying for such knowledge is considered an insult.

And dion fortune says that anybody who wants pay is the spawn of satan and that all white magician will gladly share their knowledge...

SO, what do the teacher get out of this.
Well, the learning experience of course.
Some internet-fame.
It will look good on your personal CV.
It will prepare the teacher to go out and be a teacher in the real world.
Good karma.

Desecrated wrote:

Clockwork_Ghost wrote: 2. What criteria would you use to make sure that prospective students weren't just trolls? Lots of trolls online.

2. Simple written test, simple initiation, just like every other organization. "Go out and by that book, tell me a joke, write a short essay on why you want to learn."
It should be easy to judge a persons will from that.

Who would assess these applications? [/quote]

The teacher.

Desecrated wrote:

Clockwork_Ghost wrote: 3. If you're simply going to get everyone to share their own knowledge, then why complicate matters? You already have a forum packed with information, why do you need to have a special area for learning when there is so much information already here?

3. The idea he is proposing is that we all follow the same path. I can share everything I know, and you share everything you know, but then the forum will just be flooded by random thoughts and idea.
The good part of a joint study group is that we all work on the same exercise together, we all share our thoughts on that exercise and we all try to reach the same goal.

Now I'm confused, and it seems like people are talking at crossed-purposes. In some places it's being suggested that this be an all-encompassing school of many paradigms, where people choose what they want to learn and a teacher with that information then teaches them, but you seem to be suggesting that there only be one subject which everyone follows together. With that option in mind, who decides what the students study? How do you then decide as a group what comes next? [/quote]

The teacher
The teacher

Desecrated wrote:

Clockwork_Ghost wrote: 4. Who will set the curriculum, decide who is and isn't worthy to teach, ensure that students attend, monitor quality of lessons, and ensure that homework is completed? What will you do with students and/or teachers who prove to be incompetent?

4. This is why I suggested a private part of the forum. If somebody is making a mess, simple ban them. It also makes it easier to monitor because it's all in one place instead of spread out through the entire forum.

I agree with you here, though I don't understand the mechanics of creating such a place on the forum. I'll have a talk to the admin staff and see if this is possible.

Keep these ideas coming - like I've said, I'm not opposing what you are saying, I'm just trying to get you to expand on your ideas to make sure such a thing is even possible.[/quote]

As I might have already demonstrated I think that most things necessary for the people interested in the ways of the occult to get started are already in place here. However, I don't want to let a potentially great idea go to waste because of somes pessimistic egos, therefore, those might give some inspiration:

http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Unseen_University
http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Wizards
http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Witches%27_magic

Ramscha

Edit:

I agree with you here, though I don't understand the mechanics of creating such a place on the forum. I'll have a talk to the admin staff and see if this is possible.

I am quite familiar with this forum layout from my own experience as a moderator, I assume the software behind it is similar as well. It should be possible to design a own subforum with visibility and access rights for specific groups where users can be assigned to individually by admins/moderators who have the rights to assigne user identity.

Here is my plan of action.


Teacher volunteers, states his or her claims.
Students applies to it.
Teacher choose which ones that will move forward.

Every Saturday the teacher posts ONE exercise.
The students then practice that exercise for one week.
During that week anybody can share their thought and feelings about it and also add doubts and general question concerning the exercise.
If everybody feels like we are ready to move on, we get a new exercise. Teacher can always stop and repeat the exercise for another week.


And then this just repeats.


Now we can throw some curveballs into it, by having a quest teacher come up with an exercise a certain week or the students making an exercise towards the end of the course.

Okay, here's what I propose. Everyone who wants to be a teacher, send me a list of the things that you believe you know enough about in order to teach others and I will add you to the 'Areas of Expertise' thread I created, which can be found here: http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... =2&t=37094.

Ramscha, if you were referring to my comments, I'm not pessimistic - I'm trying to ensure that all the ducks are in line before trying to get this off the ground. I've seen amazing ideas completely fall to pieces because everyone thought they were great and wonderful, but nobody asked how to actually implement them.And everyone has an 'ego' - it's the core requirement for self-esteem. I'm sorry if you think I'm trying to make myself sound more important than I really am, I'm the first to admit I'm no enlightened master, I'm simply trying to make sure people are really thinking, and not just dreaming. [grin]

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:Ramscha, if you were referring to my comments, I'm not pessimistic - I'm trying to ensure that all the ducks are in line before trying to get this off the ground. I've seen amazing ideas completely fall to pieces because everyone thought they were great and wonderful, but nobody asked how to actually implement them.And everyone has an 'ego' - it's the core requirement for self-esteem. I'm sorry if you think I'm trying to make myself sound more important than I really am, I'm the first to admit I'm no enlightened master, I'm simply trying to make sure people are really thinking, and not just dreaming. [grin]

No, don't worry, I was basically refering to my pown humble self [wink] Plural just sounds less devastating

Ramscha wrote: No, don't worry, I was basically referring to my own humble self [wink] Plural just sounds less devastating

Ramscha, I'd hardly call you a 'pessimist ego', you're one of the most intelligent and productive occultists I know. You're always helpful, and I really respect both your opinions and your abilities. I know you're humble, but for all the gods sakes, don't put yourself down. [pray]

Desecrated wrote:Here is my plan of action.


Teacher volunteers, states his or her claims.
Students applies to it.
Teacher choose which ones that will move forward.

Every Saturday the teacher posts ONE exercise.
The students then practice that exercise for one week.
During that week anybody can share their thought and feelings about it and also add doubts and general question concerning the exercise.
If everybody feels like we are ready to move on, we get a new exercise. Teacher can always stop and repeat the exercise for another week.


And then this just repeats.


Now we can throw some curveballs into it, by having a quest teacher come up with an exercise a certain week or the students making an exercise towards the end of the course.

I agree.

Atzmuth wrote:
I agree.

So you both agree on just one teacher, one paradigm at a time, learn what is being taught together, then next teacher steps forward? And the teachers will come from the forum community and volunteer their services themselves?

Do any of you have any problem with doing what I suggested and sending me a list of what you feel confident teaching so I can add it to the list I'm developing?

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:

Atzmuth wrote:
I agree.

So you both agree on just one teacher, one paradigm at a time, learn what is being taught together, then next teacher steps forward? And the teachers will come from the forum community and volunteer their services themselves?

Do any of you have any problem with doing what I suggested and sending me a list of what you feel confident teaching so I can add it to the list I'm developing?

If one teacher feels up to it, let there be one teacher. if one teacher feels that they need an extra teacher to help up, then let there be two teacher.

And yes, make a list, lets see what we got.

Desecrated wrote:
If one teacher feels up to it, let there be one teacher. if one teacher feels that they need an extra teacher to help up, then let there be two teacher.

And yes, make a list, lets see what we got.

Already started one - it's here: http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... =2&t=37094

Everyone who wants to be a teacher, please PM me a list of the topics you feel confident you could teach others. Those already on the list, let me know if you still want to be there, or if you want to change your topics.

I am not guaranteeing that this idea will go ahead. I will take that up with the admins - they have the final say in the matter.

I actually know quite a lot about kabbalah but I dont think I will be able to teach it. If we can get more participation we can find more people fit for teaching.