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Haelos wrote:I understand the point Haqim is trying to make.
It's difficult to get these words out and have someone understand them properly.
Everyone here makes some other great points though too.
I love Shin's metaphor, but even I find a little bit of fault in it. That isn't to say I disagree with it, by any means.

The only thing any human can prove as Truth is their own existence. Whether you look at something subjectively or objectively, both of those outlooks come from within yourself, not without.

I understand the point Haqim's trying to make just fine. I've gone round and round on this topic ad nauseum over the years. I even seriously considered it for a little while.

Ok.
Before I start I want to point out that I'm a real-life philosopher.
And epistemology is my speciality, so I'm not just saying things out of boredom or something.

First I want you to read my posts again.
You might pass some important information here and there.

I'm not being rude here!
Subjectivism is a big fish and not many people can understand it.

RoseRed wrote:We are physical creatures stuck in physical bodies on the physical plane.

If you drive you car at 100mph into a cliff face of this 'imaginary' mountain - you'll go boom in a great big show of flame and destruction. Unless, of course, you choosing to believe the mountain isn't real will allow you to transcend physics and somehow travel through solid matter.

Physics.
Well, yeah. And no.

We are mental creatures in the first place.
You want things, you perceive things with your mind, right?
Just think about it: there's a mental filter there!

I guess you've heard about Descartes.
Now he has this dream argument which "is the postulation that the act of dreaming provides preliminary evidence that the senses we trust to distinguish reality from illusion should not be fully trusted, and therefore any state that is dependent on our senses should at the very least be carefully examined and rigorously tested to determine whether it is in fact reality." (sorry for the quot, but it's really long to explain it. Also check other sources, please)

Another argument of his is the demon argument: what if God is some kind of an evil spirit who constantly alters our perceptions?
If that is the case, then everything we perceive is a lie.

1, Perception is a mental process.
2, We can obtain information (from the external world) only through perception.
3, Perception can be altered / our mind can be tricked.
4, Sometimes we can't tell the difference between dreaming and reality.

But the most important part is 1, : It's all mental.
You memories are mental.
Look at your hands: you can see them through your perception.
Imagine something! It's all mental.
Can you see the laws in physics in action? Guess what: it's mental.

The thing about "If you drive you car at 100mph into a cliff face of this 'imaginary' mountain - you'll go boom in a great big show of flame and destruction." is that I've never tried it.
You're right about the fact that I know IN MY MIND that I'd probably die.
But all the evidence I have are mental. Memories, "facts" about physics, other people's opinions.

Extreme subjectivism is skeptical - I cannot know for sure that other people's mind exist.
They are like non-player characters in a pc game.
There's a barrier between my mind and your mind (your is just hypothetical - from my perspective).

OK, it's already tl;dr, so I'll answer the other questions in another post.

But a friendly advice:
- I know it's hard to accept these ideas... and you don't even need to accept them.
- I know that there's a voice of "sanity" which denies them in your head, but maybe it's just a kind of a mental "comfort zone".
- It's "hardcore" philosophy, so it's ok if people discuss these ideas and meditate on them.
- As Sheakspeare writes: "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Round 2.

Shinichi wrote:You can prove that the mountain existed before you were born by researching things that existed before you were born. Maps, pictures, drawings, stories. Lots of things. Through empirical evidence, that is, objectively verifiable evidence, you can very clearly determine whether or not the mountain existed before you were born.

As for your death, well, that's a different matter. But you can always leave your own evidence behind, for others.

No.
You can't prove them subjectively.
Everything is in your mind.
All the "facts" of history are "in" your mind.
Even information from other people are happened "through" (or "in"?) your mind.

And you can't imagine death, nor the times before your birth.
Nor you can perceive other people's minds before their birth, during life or after their deaths.

Shinichi wrote:Truth decides what is true. Color blinds may not see colors, but the colors are still there. I have no idea what insane people have to do with this discussion. And religious people... As I said, reality doesn't give a damn what you believe about it. Something is either true or it isn't.

Not exactly.
You're right about certain physical laws that are seem to be constant.
If we're talking about the laws of physics, it's ok.
But saying that there is an ultimate "Truth" is a long shot.

Saying things like "reality doesn't give a damn what you believe about it" or "something is either true or it isn't" on an occult forum are pretty unexpected.
Your life is a subjective experiment... or you just couldn't pass the Turing-test.

Shinichi wrote:One's perceptions and perspectives of the truth are relative. Two psychics may receive a telepathic message via two completely different modes of transference or symbolism, yet the message conveyed is the same. The truth is the same.

Implying there is an objective world.
But, again, you're saying this from an objective point of view.

Shinichi wrote:Objectivism isn't a high horse. It's a simple matter to determine whether or not something is real: you check. If you can't tell, you have others help you check, and make an appointment for a therapist. After everyone has checked, the thing checked will either be real or it will not be real. True or false.

If anything, subjectivity is a horse that is very high indeed, to assume that nothing outside your own head is relevant. At least "objectivism" is humble enough to nod its head and yield that something may be wrong, accept that and move on.

Objectivism can be a high horse, but the same goes for subjectivism.
You can't verify or falsify them. Neither of them!

I could ask a reality-check from a therapist, of course - but (s)he would be in my perception, thus "in" my mind, too.
Plus you believe everything what others say?

Nothing is "in" my head, by the way. That's solipsism, which is nonsense, indeed.
Subjectivism says that everything is in my consciousness, even my head.

Oh, and a theory doesn't need to be humble to be true (or exact).
Sapere aude!

Shinichi wrote:Both subjectivity and objectivity can easily be studied, with various experiments verified or falsified. This is true in the metaphysical application of these concepts as well. If I Clairvoyantly see that a certain card is one thing or another, I can turn that card over and check it. True or False.

The masses cannot accept subjectivity as an all-truth mode of existence because common sense and logic dictates that idea to be false. Simple as that.

I completely agree.

Read some Berkeley, by the way, if you're interested in matters like these - he talks about common sense, too.
It's very interesting.

However if you think about the fact that everyone sees the world from a subjective point of view and objectivism is, in fact, a secondary mode of thinking and perception, then "The masses cannot accept subjectivity as an all-truth mode of existence because common sense and logic dictates that idea to be false" is false (or, to be more precise, is wrong).

Shinichi wrote:This is am amusing proposition to make after previously bringing up ideas like collective unconsciousness.

What you fail to understand is that reality, like the aforementioned mountain, is its own objective thing independent of you, and yet connected to you. The collective unconscious and similar psychological theories have it only partially correct, but you should have the gist of it anyway. Everyone experiences the same reality, and then projects their experience back into that reality.

The mountain is there. This is truth. The sun is there. This is truth. You can go inside and ignore the mountain, or the sun can be hidden by clouds, but your ignorance does not dismiss the truth that reality is still there.

Ah, here we go again.
You automatically assume that reality is an objective thing, apart from your perception.
But this is a hasty assumption!

The external world is connected to your perception, and that's for sure.

This however "The mountain is there. This is truth. The sun is there. This is truth. You can go inside and ignore the mountain, or the sun can be hidden by clouds, but your ignorance does not dismiss the truth that reality is still there." is true.
Berkeley says that God's Creation is, in fact, a language. The mountain is there for a reason, etc.
It's a very interesting theory, for an occultist, too.

But change the sentences a bit, to be more precise:
The mountain is there (in my mind).
The sun is there (in my mind).
If I think about them, if they hurt me or burn me... how I experience these?
Yes, indeed: through / in my mind.

The theory of collective unconscious - well yeah, that's just a theory. An objectivist one.

The big question is for subjectivism is, by the way, this: How's that things won't disappear or change when I shut my eyes and open them again?
So you're absolutely right about this one.

Shinichi wrote:Magick and Science are two aspects of the same general thing. The Physical Sciences govern the rules and principles of the material plane, while Magick governs the rules and principles of the spiritual planes. In the old times, in the Egyptian and Greek Priesthoods and even further back into antiquity, these things were one collective science of the natural world. It is a mistake to think they are entirely separate things.

I just tried to separate things, that's all.
Magic and science can also give answers to... well, to everything, really.
So we're actually on the same side on this one, too.

Shinichi wrote:If you really think all of this is an empty debate and I am wrong, then perhaps you may find the courage to test RoseRed's suggestion.

That's a cheap one, to be fair.
But ok.

What if I alredy did that?
Yeah, I killed myself a few seconds ago, and it was cool, I blew up, then there was fire and yeah, I'm here again, wow!
You'd say I should prove it. And let's say that I could.
Would you believe it, for real?
Why? Or why Not?
Because you'd PERCEIVE all the evidences (or the lack of them).
You also PERCEIVE all the evidences that say surviving an explosion like that is impossible - photos, laws of physics, other people, biology, memories, etc, etc.

... and then there's magic.
Miracles, chaos, the unbelievable, the irrational.
The subjective.

When you practice magic, you enter this domain.
That's why most of the magical acts are unperceivable for other people.
You know it happened, you did it, but that's all.
It could be synchronicity, visions, etc... but most of the times, it's all subjective.
Just think about this.

I hope I made some points here and you're not really wishing me to die, just because I see the world differently or have different opinions.

Have a nice day, all of you!

Haqim wrote:And you can't imagine death, nor the times before your birth.
Nor you can perceive other people's minds before their birth, during life or after their deaths.

This amuses me more than anything else in this thread. I and several others I know do these things on a regular basis, and towards the end of your own post, you offer the imagination of your death as argument against the reality of solid physics that would kill you were you to drive into a cliff.

I can't perceive other peoples minds? Let me tell you, my friend, such a thing is elementary for anyone with any degree of The Sight. I can not only perceive the thoughts and feelings of others, but if I set my heart to it, I can dive inside and change things as I please. Plant an idea, create a memory that never happened, remove a memory that changed their life, change someone's feelings about something to love or hate or anything in between, and a great deal more.

And I've encountered people who make me look like an amateur, and make me understand why people used to fear genuine witches, wizards and sorcerers.

Haqim wrote:

Shinichi wrote:If you really think all of this is an empty debate and I am wrong, then perhaps you may find the courage to test RoseRed's suggestion.

That's a cheap one, to be fair.
But ok.

Don't take it personally. 'Twas simply an example to illustrate the fact of objective Physics. There is nothing subjective about driving into a cliff. You'll be dead, then you won't be here to perceive anything. Subjectivity over ruled by reality. And if you are intelligent enough to accept that the material world has its own rules and principles (which are solid, regardless of manipulations applied, like flight) that are independent of your own individual microcosm, then you should accept that there are similar rules and principles on every plane, including that of Spirit or Consciousness.

Or not. But such is the truth. You are a tiny drop of water in a vast ocean.

Haqim wrote:What if I alredy did that?
Yeah, I killed myself a few seconds ago, and it was cool, I blew up, then there was fire and yeah, I'm here again, wow!
You'd say I should prove it. And let's say that I could.
Would you believe it, for real?
Why? Or why Not?
Because you'd PERCEIVE all the evidences (or the lack of them).
You also PERCEIVE all the evidences that say surviving an explosion like that is impossible - photos, laws of physics, other people, biology, memories, etc, etc.

I hope you one day realize how silly this entire paragraph is, and I hope you can get as good a laugh from it as I did.

Haqim wrote:... and then there's magic.
Miracles, chaos, the unbelievable, the irrational.
The subjective.

When you practice magic, you enter this domain.
That's why most of the magical acts are unperceivable for other people.
You know it happened, you did it, but that's all.
It could be synchronicity, visions, etc... but most of the times, it's all subjective.
Just think about this.

When I work real magick, other people most definitely perceive it. The only time I ever cursed a man reduced him to ruin within a year. When I transfer my Life Force into someone, they feel it as real as if I had poked them with an open electric cord, and when I transfer other things the effects are just as distinctly real. When I do a Fire Meditation, the physical (measurable) temperature of my body increases to such a point that my skin turns red and the room itself gets a little hotter, just from my body heat. And on the rare occasions that I managed to heal someone without accidentally making it worse, the results were quick and very obvious.

Subjectivity? Individual perceptions? Hardly. If I do a working properly, it damn well shows it. And if I fail, that shows too. Subjectivity certainly plays a role. If you make someone think you curse them, they can usually cause a great deal of problems for themselves and save you the energy of weaving an actual curse. But if you weave an actual spell, properly, it's results will show whether anyone knows it or not. That is more than personal perception.



~:Shin:~

Dear Shinichi,

Please, listen: You got your point of view, I got mine.

I think I wasn't rude to you, while you constantly are.

I honestly think that it's pointless argue about this topic anymore (as I said philosophy is actually my profession, so I know where's the point where an argument should stop).
Not just because you are hostile (for some reason) - as I said before, subjectivism and objectivism are like religions; you believe in one, while you reject the another.

For me, these are (meta-)paradigms.
But that's, again, just an opinion, nothing more.

I decided to remain calm and let this topic go.
Please understand: I don't want to fight.

I respect your opinion and I believe your claimed experiences, and I hope you'll do the same.

But please do not talk to me in that tone; let's respect each other!
We're here to learn and to share our experiences (which can differ), after all.

Peace to you!

I don't think I'm being rude or hostile, I'm just being blunt. I apologize if that has bothered you.

But alright. Have a good day.



~:Shin:~

Shinichi wrote:I don't think I'm being rude or hostile, I'm just being blunt. I apologize if that has bothered you.

But alright. Have a good day.

On the contrary: honesty is a great virtue!
In fact, this world surely needs more honest people.

Anyway - I hope this discussion won't ruin our "fellowship" on this forum, and (as my buddy would say) we could "take part in jolly cooperation".

Wow i never realized that watching people argue could be so entertaining yet teach me and make me think about so many things u guys really know ur stuff even if u all have different opinions about it

It's interesting following discussions above. My apologize for offering my opinion as a newbie. I always believe in magick and refused to acknowledge that magick can only be found in stories since I was little. Well, that was several decades ago but I am still in young age hehe. After reading some books in a few different religions and thanks to the development of internet, to my surprise I find that my belief is true. As someone still learning, I always seek the absolute truth. And I think anything we learn, every knowledge we can find in truth. So, every knowledge and science that we have learned actually are part of truth. What is truth? Well, I think it is the quest we have as spiritual being to discover the truth. What is the law that govern human world? What is the law that govern other worlds? Why is the law that way? What gravity, light, elements are, what are the principles that govern atoms and many more. I think those are part of the truth. Even our imaginations come from our perceptions. Mind can be fooled to perceive something differently, but isn't our interpretation itself that wrongly interpret our perception as this way or that way? I think that's why Lao Tzu said When the world knows beauty as beauty, ugliness arises. When it knows good as good, evil arises. Thus being and non-being produce each other. We interpret something we perceive as this way or that way. When we rely on our perceptions we are easily deceived. We use our knowledge to know something is right or wrong but where that knowledge come from? They come from books and teachings of others. How can we know that they are not wrong? But as a spiritual being we can seek truth not only with our five senses. In Buddhism there are ability called direct knowledge. In some religions and magick systems there are grades or levels that indicate our spiritual development. I think this is what magician seek, true knowledge that is not delusion.