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Not done reading new posts yet.

Another decent example is that of soldiers ending their lives, as has been mentioned. These are far more knowable issues than that of the average teen or young-adult suicide.

A lot of beautiful posts so far.

When I'm ready, I'm quite sure I'll be ending my physical life with willful death-by-thought. Whether I transcend or descend is up for the universe to decide.

Keep the discussions going.

I've had a lot of replies. Too many to respond to so I'll just respond to Magari who asks Whats the difference between the 10% and the 90%?

Only one in thirty suicide attempts result in death so if 100,000 women have been raped and 10,000 commit suicide that's actually 300,000 suicide attempts between them all. The difference between the 10% and the 90% is that suicide is very difficult.

People who commit suicide at any age have most often made the decision in early childhood or rather, they've had the decision made for them. Fucked up parents do indeed try to fuck up their own children. They can't help it, it's done unconsciously. If that means destroying your own offspring then so be it.

I'd like to quote myself here then quote Haelos.

1) The decision to kill someone. Now that isn't easy and you may well deçide the easiest murder victim for you to kill is actually yourself.

2) the decision to be killed by someone. You may, unconsciously work to put yourself in the position of being killed by another but if you fail to persuade someone to kill you then you do it yourself.

3) The decision not to be alive. Escape from the horrors and hoplessness and misery of life.

Haelos wrote:

Another decent example is that of soldiers ending their lives, as has been mentioned. These are far more knowable issues than that of the average teen or young-adult suicide.

Now, why does a person become a soldier? What do soldiers actually get to do? They get to kill people. They get people trying to kill them. See the psychology at work here? 'I'll be a soldier because then I'll get the chance to kill people. I'll be a soldier because then I'll get the chance to have people kill me.' That's the unconscious decision making at work. Coming home severely affected they then suicide.

Cybernetic_Jazz wrote:

hellebore wrote:but I suspect the number of suicides that don't involve some severe psychological imbalance is very small (at least in our modern, Western culture).

I think the thing you're forgetting is also huge social iniquity - either along the lines of socio-economic status and lost opportunity or, alternately, the rampant eugenic and social Darwinist underpinnings that our culture has in it's dealings with any members it deems 'weak' or 'different'.

That and as far as human pettiness and smallness is concerned - when people just deal with small amounts of it in their lives it seems like a brush-off and non event, other people have their lives consistently decimated by it because they seem to find nothing else.

Social iniquity is a huge contributor to mental illness and by extrapolation to suicide. There's no correlation between absolute poverty and suicide but a definite correlation between relative poverty and suicide. There's also a correlation between intelligence and suicide, so the more intelligent you are higher the risk. In broad terms, intelligent people forced by whatever circumstances to live in relative poverty are at disproportionately high risk of major depression, which may or may not lead to suicide. The biggest factor we're aware of though is sense of belonging, and this ties in with much of what you and Neko write. Feeling that you belong, that you're loved and valued for what you are, that you fit in, that you're 'enough', that you matter ... these are the protective 'anti-oxidants' of mental health. I agree that as society becomes ever more focused on the individual rather than the tribe the struggle to experience that sense of belonging, of being enough becomes harder and harder for more and more of us.

Haelos wrote:
Another decent example is that of soldiers ending their lives, as has been mentioned. These are far more knowable issues than that of the average teen or young-adult suicide.

Listen to those awful WWI recordings of massively wounded soldiers stranded on the battlefield screaming to their comrades "Shoot me". Were they weaklings and cowards?

Neko-phyte wrote: So I guess to answer the original question, I can't bring myself to see suicide as being a thing that is either weak or brave. Or, if it has to be, it is both. It's perhaps the only agency a person feels like they have left, but it's the last action they can take.

I'm with Neko on this.

Horny Goat wrote: Now, why does a person become a soldier? What do soldiers actually get to do? They get to kill people. They get people trying to kill them. See the psychology at work here? 'I'll be a soldier because then I'll get the chance to kill people. I'll be a soldier because then I'll get the chance to have people kill me.' That's the unconscious decision making at work. Coming home severely affected they then suicide.

Interesting concept but a) most soldiers in most conflicts are conscripted; b) career soldiers experience lower rates of PTSD than conscripts (in whom your proposed dynamic is unlikely to be at work) and c) most advertising for military careers here in the UK at least is designed to mislead "Join the army, learn a trade and see the world" - the whole question of killing is sickeningly downplayed.

Cybernetic_Jazz wrote:I'll second that.

I'll also say this as well - we're going to have increasing unemployment all across the board as we automate ourselves right out of needing to work. As increasing numbers of people simply aren't needed in the employment world, at least in any financially gainful sense, we'll really want to take the issue seriously of what to do with these people. So much NGO activity could be predicated on this, so much volunteer work; we'd really need to keep people in this situation active and enfranchised. They might not be plugged in to the financial apparatus in their work but they'd definitely be far from useless. Probably better if we started experimenting with it sooner rather than later.

I know that the UK experimented with something like workfare but it was a mess. That might be the way of the future albeit we'll have to figure out how we'll stem a lot of the nastier abuses that tend to crop up with such things.

Sorry to sling this aside in..

Nobody is going to work for nothing if they have a house, partner and/or kids to support.

Sypheara wrote:
Sorry to sling this aside in..

Nobody is going to work for nothing if they have a house, partner and/or kids to support.

I don't know about that; things are such are mess here that even volunteering positions are becoming really hard to find. Somehow in the last couple of years, you have to be either just finishing school or have at least three years experience in anything to get a job. So a lot of people will do it just to have *something* to put down on the CV and getting an interview. Of course getting paid is preferable, but when you're when you're trying to get away from having nothing, you got to do something. Also the increasing need for insurance and other liability protection dissuades opportunities from being created, thus reducing people back down to an asset/liability (false) dichotomy.

Cybernetic_Jazz wrote:
This kind of circles back to my post before the one you quoted - that a lot of what we point out as worthy of honor suicide in the west (ie. being a 'failed male' or female and what not) is something that we've rather artificially created. Another example - I know it often gets cited that in the East people can leave home and live the monastic life, that we don't have access to that in the west; in a way we at one time did more so, and for people who were lets say the burn victims, the people with deformities who are essentially the stereotypical attic and basement dwellers, they had places in particular churches and monasteries where those people may not be particularly seen but they would be given petitions by others to pray on their behalf and they would pray constantly.

I think this is where reductive materialism has killed options in the west and really driven us to believe that unless you're employable that you're better off dead or that you at least need to deeply consider yourself as something of a dead-weight and invalid part of society.

Make no mistakes - I'm interviewing quite a bit lately, have a fair chance of landing another job and I'm praying things work out; they probably will more likely than not. Just that my own brushes with fate (in my case living with PDD-NOS) has taught me a lot about the hard-limits in a lot of people's lives. It's one thing to spur someone who's authentically lazy, another to just keep kicking a person for something that their own soul has (lovingly in it's own manner and for it's own purposes) inhibited or even curtailed as an area of growth. It seems to indicate a particular kind of disparity with the below and the above.

It's true, and I did read that. It's what really got me thinking,to be honest.

What you're saying about reductive materialism is what I was trying to get at, but I was too emotional at the time and not that eloquent as a result. This materialistic capitalism rubbish doesn't run on winners, it relies on people feeling like crap and then trying to use the system to not feel crap. The way this western world does it is all wrong, and unfortunately it's everywhere now, thanks to globalisation.

It's really hard to remember that there is so much more to life and that you're more important than your paycheck when there's no structural/outside reinforcement of the idea. Some might consider that weak, but you can only fight something for so long before you need to stop. And this can happen even just on a smaller interpersonal level as well; I know loved ones have blamed me many times (both directly and indirectly) for their stress and unhappiness, the more recent reasons being money-related (and all of these times for not slotting nicely into the system one way or another). I guess those who are doing fine enough become so apathetic because they're not having that much of a problem, or so they think. Can't help but conclude that another side-effect of this modern life is becoming allergic to compassion, which again just helps nobody.

You're talking about just finishing up school. S is talking about paying a mortgage and feeding your children and spouse.

Now, why does a person become a soldier? What do soldiers actually get to do? They get to kill people. They get people trying to kill them. See the psychology at work here? 'I'll be a soldier because then I'll get the chance to kill people. I'll be a soldier because then I'll get the chance to have people kill me.' That's the unconscious decision making at work. Coming home severely affected they then suicide.

Horny Goat - your ignorance is showing and it's rather insulting. There's a hell of a lot more to a standing military than Infantry and grunts.

RoseRed wrote:You're talking about just finishing up school. S is talking about paying a mortgage and feeding your children and spouse.

Now, why does a person become a soldier? What do soldiers actually get to do? They get to kill people. They get people trying to kill them. See the psychology at work here? 'I'll be a soldier because then I'll get the chance to kill people. I'll be a soldier because then I'll get the chance to have people kill me.' That's the unconscious decision making at work. Coming home severely affected they then suicide.

Horny Goat - your ignorance is showing and it's rather insulting. There's a hell of a lot more to a standing military than Infantry and grunts.

Both of you.... lol

There is a lot more to the infantry than that.

I do have an opinion on recent suicides in the US military due to Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Suicide rates among non-combat positions are higher than combat ones. The only reason I can explain this is with my personal experience.

I got my guy, I got closure. Most of the soldiers who deploy to these wars are stuck on a FOB or airbase the entire deployment while the enemy engages them with indirect fire (mortars, rockets, ect). They wake up in the morning, go to breakfast, stand in line, and BOOM. If their lucky the alarm goes off before the rounds hit, allowing for a bit of warning, but its death from above with no perceived source, or enemy. They must endure this threat on a moment to moment basis, never knowing the source or even having an opportunity to do anything about it.

My experience on the other hand was much different. I left the wire on a daily basis, got into firefights on the regular. Witnessed the enemy and took actions to prevent my own demise. I witnessed the results of my actions and the actions of the enemy. I had a relationship, of sorts, with the enemy.

I had closure. The average soldier doesn't normally get that opportunity in these wars.

Now, for PTSD; I have dreams, and adjusting to civilian life wasn't "easy", but suicide never crossed my mind.

I also want to say that some of the greatest individuals I've ever met were "grunts". IQ's through the roof, a sense of duty and integrity we can all aspire to, great husbands and better fathers. Born leaders. They joined the Infantry because they understood the challenge and how it could shape them into even better individuals.

I have yet to see the same in another profession, but I'm keeping my eyes peeled.

I also want to say that some of the greatest individuals I've ever met were "grunts". IQ's through the roof, a sense of duty and integrity we can all aspire to, great husbands and better fathers. Born leaders. They joined the Infantry because they understood the challenge and how it could shape them into even better individuals.

Oh, magari - I can see that you took what I said the wrong way. I was in no way shape or form insulting grunts ( or jarheads, etc). I really thought you, of all people, would've picked up on that.

There is so much more to a soldier than 'Ima gonna join up just so's I canz killz peeps'. Please.

magari wrote:
I also want to say that some of the greatest individuals I've ever met were "grunts". IQ's through the roof, a sense of duty and integrity we can all aspire to, great husbands and better fathers.

Except when it comes to rape. Which is a huge problem both inside the military and around military bases in other countries. In Okinawa something like 75% of all sexual assaults are done by Americans.

But then again, Sweden is the leading country in europe when it comes to rape so I'm just going to shut up.

RoseRed wrote:

I also want to say that some of the greatest individuals I've ever met were "grunts". IQ's through the roof, a sense of duty and integrity we can all aspire to, great husbands and better fathers. Born leaders. They joined the Infantry because they understood the challenge and how it could shape them into even better individuals.

Oh, magari - I can see that you took what I said the wrong way. I was in no way shape or form insulting grunts ( or jarheads, etc). I really thought you, of all people, would've picked up on that.

There is so much more to a soldier than 'Ima gonna join up just so's I canz killz peeps'. Please.

No offense taken.

The suicide rates in the military are atrocious though and definitely a problem. I read somewhere that for every soldier the enemy kills, 22-25 commit suicide.

The problem, in this guy's opinion, is that our culture has no room for true warriors anymore. When you commit to the life of a warrior it's life or death in every decision you make. Something as simple as how you tie your boots this morning has profound meaning on your ability to survive and live to only fight again tomorrow. When you commit yourself 100% to a cause and understand that it could mean your death you have literally given up your life for an entire society who has no idea what your name is or where you even come from. I fought beside people who weren't even citizens of this great nation, individuals who were willing to give up their lives for the chance to call themselves American.

Then you return to a place where the people you bled for are supposed to be civilized and mature, but instead they act more like animals. People in positions of authority over our youth are filling their heads with ideas that leave them to be victimized by the "real world". The only news you can get is about drama in hollywood, entire communities victimized by racebaiters and the individuals who are supposed to protect and serve this public are being humiliated by the ignorance of the people they serve. No news of the war, no stories of the heroics of our fallen, the sacrifices of the families and children and fathers of the individuals who protect our nation abroad.

Then there is the looks, the stares you get. When a man of great integrity, ambition, and sense of duty walks in the room everyone notices. When he acts and speaks with conviction and authority people notice. They are attracted to him and curious. There is a sense of order missing from their life that this man seems to embody. They get curious and ask questions....... far from prepared for the answer he gives. Some are shocked, some are amazed, some become frightened, some consider him crazy and no longer fit for society.

Most soldiers don't even bother. They understand immediately that they are aliens in society, all alone in a world they bled for, in a world they watched their brothers die for.

When a civilian who can barely decide whether they want a pumpkin spice or chai latte in the morning says they "understand" its a great insult to everything the warrior represents.

Society is ultimately unprepared for the warriors return, but then again, the warrior isn't really a member of society.

We said this all the time in my unit; there are sheep and there are sheep dogs. Sheep dogs are there to protect the sheep, but in order to do so, they must be closer to the wolf in every sense of the word. The sheep are not sheep dogs and cannot understand why the sheep dog does what he does, but they also understand that if they don't listen to the sheep dog, the wolf will get them.

Desecrated wrote:

magari wrote:
I also want to say that some of the greatest individuals I've ever met were "grunts". IQ's through the roof, a sense of duty and integrity we can all aspire to, great husbands and better fathers.

Except when it comes to rape. Which is a huge problem both inside the military and around military bases in other countries. In Okinawa something like 75% of all sexual assaults are done by Americans.

But then again, Sweden is the leading country in europe when it comes to rape so I'm just going to shut up.

Combat arms make up less than 1% of the US military.

In Japan you have the navy and the airforce, some marines and a tiny unit of green berets.

Sypheara wrote: Sorry to sling this aside in..

Nobody is going to work for nothing if they have a house, partner and/or kids to support.

I wouldn't suggest that either. I do think we'd need some kind of mandated community service for people who are able-bodied and able-minded, unemployed for the foreseeable future, and who would be getting government aid to get by. IMHO it has deleterious effects on society to just give them money to sit around and accordingly a program would be needed to keep people active who are receiving benefits for things short of physical disability or diseases of the type that would prohibit it.

Quoting RoseRed:

Now, why does a person become a soldier? What do soldiers actually get to do? They get to kill people. They get people trying to kill them. See the psychology at work here? 'I'll be a soldier because then I'll get the chance to kill people. I'll be a soldier because then I'll get the chance to have people kill me.' That's the unconscious decision making at work. Coming home severely affected they then suicide.

Horny Goat - your ignorance is showing and it's rather insulting. There's a hell of a lot more to a standing military than Infantry and grunts.

The people higher up who don't have to actually look down a gunsight at a real, living human being down suffer so bad as they tend to be more psychopathic. The general, his highest officers, and the politician's and the money men behind them are killers on a larger scale but are more psychopathic. The deaths they cause are unreal and insignificant to them. Hence, no issues.


Magari, Sweden is the rape capital of the world because it's beautiful girls and women are being targeted my followers of a 7th century mind-control cult we read a lot about in the newspapers nowadays. To criticise this mind-control cult is deemed 'ray-cist' so it mustn't be done. Besides, the victims inflicted it upon themselves by not covering their heads, and by not being accompanied, by walking several feet behind, their male relatives. They 'seduced' their rapists, see. Whore's were asking for it - at least that's the defence the rapists usually give if ever questioned about such attacks, which their prophet said were okay anyway against unbelievers.

Horny Goat wrote:Quoting RoseRed:

Now, why does a person become a soldier? What do soldiers actually get to do? They get to kill people. They get people trying to kill them. See the psychology at work here? 'I'll be a soldier because then I'll get the chance to kill people. I'll be a soldier because then I'll get the chance to have people kill me.' That's the unconscious decision making at work. Coming home severely affected they then suicide.

Horny Goat - your ignorance is showing and it's rather insulting. There's a hell of a lot more to a standing military than Infantry and grunts.

The people higher up who don't have to actually look down a gunsight at a real, living human being down suffer so bad as they tend to be more psychopathic. The general, his highest officers, and the politician's and the money men behind them are killers on a larger scale but are more psychopathic. The deaths they cause are unreal and insignificant to them. Hence, no issues.


Magari, Sweden is the rape capital of the world because it's beautiful girls and women are being targeted my followers of a 7th century mind-control cult we read a lot about in the newspapers nowadays. To criticise this mind-control cult is deemed 'ray-cist' so it mustn't be done. Besides, the victims inflicted it upon themselves by not covering their heads, and by not being accompanied, by walking several feet behind, their male relatives. They 'seduced' their rapists, see. Whore's were asking for it - at least that's the defence the rapists usually give if ever questioned about such attacks, which their prophet said were okay anyway against unbelievers.

.... wow [eek]

I think I'll wait for Desecrated to respond.

Cybernetic Jazz says:


Re: Is suicide honorable?
by Cybernetic_Jazz » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:49 pm
Sypheara wrote:
Sorry to sling this aside in..

Nobody is going to work for nothing if they have a house, partner and/or kids to support.

I wouldn't suggest that either. I do think we'd need some kind of mandated community service for people who are able-bodied and able-minded, unemployed for the foreseeable future, and who would be getting government aid to get by. IMHO it has deleterious effects on society to just give them money to sit around and accordingly a program would be needed to keep people active who are receiving benefits for things short of physical disability or diseases of the type that would prohibit it.


There is much to be said for the reintroduction of slavery in the western nations and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks thus. Unemployment and subsequent idleness leads to excess masturbation and turning to drink.

Unemployed persons should be made to cut federal grass with nail clippers, be made to turn over all fallen leaves in a forest, and be made to polish grains of sand on the beach in order to qualify for their beer money.

Haelos wrote:When I'm ready, I'm quite sure I'll be ending my physical life with willful death-by-thought. Whether I transcend or descend is up for the universe to decide.

Around the second week of March and once or twice in August and September I got incredibly serious about that. Feeling like I was under the thumb of absolute career and economic destruction and considering my whole life up to this point the world had been flogging me as too weak or unfit to be alive (by fundamental breach of conformity) that I felt like the only way I could climb out of such a hell was by career success and independence - I felt like I was eating more stamps than my entire cultivated sense of self over the last 35 years could endure.

I had one night where I was begging my soul to kill me by 36, that I did not want to live to see my birthday, one night after I'd been blown away by a coworker that I was absolutely certain that I'd be driving down a country rode and putting a bullet in my head. The later night I had the memory of the afterlife consequences of such an act in mind, did a tarot reading asking about it (the tarot reading was considerably soft-foot in response), and I decided instead to push equally hard to walk out.

I think that's one thing we do need to figure out - if we ever get to a point where our lives are untenable to the point that our selves are between the walls of a trash compactor and we know that psychic guts are about to fly out everywhere - we need to figure out how to not just formally petition for a walk-out but to have reasonable assurance that a walk in would be there to take our bodies over. Typically we don't mean to do violence to our bodies, we don't wish to do harm, we simply come to the conclusion that we're doing something to the equivalent of flying a helicopter without and formal training and would rather have someone sub in for us who can actually fly a helicopter rather than crash in a city or suburban area harming people who had no fault in the matter.

Magari, I will respond in advance to Desecrated before he replies by saying.. Desecrated?... Nuts! Coconuts! Geddit? Desecrated Coconuts. Har har har.

Desecrated, you mustn't be offended by my earlier post as it's just a joke. Forums do need a bit of humour.

Horny Goat wrote: There is much to be said for the reintroduction of slavery in the western nations and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks thus. Unemployment and subsequent idleness leads to excess masturbation and turning to drink.

Unemployed persons should be made to cut federal grass with nail clippers, be made to turn over all fallen leaves in a forest, and be made to polish grains of sand on the beach in order to qualify for their beer money.

I have a very particular problem with that. While I don't mind challenging and tedious work for people as a character builder I think one of the absolute most important things about how we'd choose to set the unemployed to work is that it NEEDS to be character-building, needs to be given in a positive civic framework, and needs to if at all possible - if not having a spiritual base of ideology at least have a profound philosophical one. It's critical that we also NOT treat these people like sudras or like an inferior class - if we do that we set ourselves right back to square one. Yes you can give them challenging work but you DON'T in any way shape or form convey it as a punishment for supposed inferiority or for breathing and not being employable.

Dear Cybernetic Jazz,
thank you for your response but I wonder if you realised I was taking the pee-pee? Are you by any chance an American? After a hard days masturbation and drinking one finds oneself in rather a silly mood and needs to entertain oneself. What-Ho old chap.

Yours sincerely,
An Englishman (and yes, I do enjoy tiffin with the Queen.)

Neko-phyte wrote: What you're saying about reductive materialism is what I was trying to get at, but I was too emotional at the time and not that eloquent as a result. This materialistic capitalism rubbish doesn't run on winners, it relies on people feeling like crap and then trying to use the system to not feel crap. The way this western world does it is all wrong, and unfortunately it's everywhere now, thanks to globalisation.

That and if we get to where we're at a 30% vs. 70% subsistence by employment rate (only 30% can cover their bases responsibly) then we're driving our most talented into the ground and recommending the other 70% to sit in a warm tub with a razor - all because capitalism achieved its ends and make humans increasingly irrelevant in the work world! Far more productive to have everyone relax a little, foster creativity over shocking themselves with the cattle prod, and see how much more - with the qualities of circumspect rather than utter myopia - that we can get done.

One of the other big wake-ups for me was seeing just how many mom and pop firms that started in the 19th or early 20th century found themselves, by the 80's, 90's, or 2000's buying up all kinds of other companies, watching that process accelerate, watch the speculative buying increase, and then watch these companies economically tank when the gambling went off the rails - they get bought out by a particular shareholder, gutted for assets, and sold off. It seems like our dreams of big success in the corporate finance world are just as suicidal as our individual outlooks on the matter.

Neko-phyte wrote:It's really hard to remember that there is so much more to life and that you're more important than your paycheck when there's no structural/outside reinforcement of the idea. Some might consider that weak, but you can only fight something for so long before you need to stop. And this can happen even just on a smaller interpersonal level as well; I know loved ones have blamed me many times (both directly and indirectly) for their stress and unhappiness, the more recent reasons being money-related (and all of these times for not slotting nicely into the system one way or another). I guess those who are doing fine enough become so apathetic because they're not having that much of a problem, or so they think. Can't help but conclude that another side-effect of this modern life is becoming allergic to compassion, which again just helps nobody.

I think the big problem in the US at least is that we have two parties that cater extremes. One side understands economics, understands foreign policy, but seems to have draconian outlooks on social liberties. The other loves social liberties but seems to have no understanding of economics, foreign policy, and to make them even more dangerous they also seem to defend all right to abdicate personal responsibility - as if they feel the need to identify the stupid angle of the other party and create and equal and opposite stupid (if not worse). I've voted for the first party, even if it were against my "I can get something for free!" interests because I would rather be doing poorly in a country that's still standing than have a few years to grab what I can from the US treasury and then be the proud resident of an ashpile or a recent 3rd world shell state.

I think the idea of handling this kind of transition right by definition has to transcend both Republican and Democrat thinking and would need to fuse the best of both worlds. To the liberal side of thinking when you have only so much for for far more people the priorities both for having a huge amount of material stuff to be considered socially valid needs to go away, mini-houses and the like should increasingly be the norm just so that a person in the new economy has shelter they can actually afford, and at the same time the increases in IT, internet tech, etc. put us in a place where increasing amounts of what we needed can be piped through as data. On the other side you can't have people just sitting around or dependent on government - I grew up in a relatively affluent suburb, saw how whacked out the kids were, saw guys wrapping the Audi's their parents bought them around telephone poles drunk and their parents went out and bought them brand new Audi's! Similarly people seem to resent what they simply sit on and don't in some way, shape, or form work for.

I feel kind of nutty talking like that about economic systems but I do think, as the employment problems get worse, that people will increasingly start identifying that a) capitalism is a victim of it's own success - in a good way if we know how to look at that from a non-Marxist perspective and rather as a stepping stone in human progress b) when capitalism was still a work intensely in progress we needed every hand on deck and when it was like that capitalism WAS a viable welfare system, and as it naturally phases humans out we'll need an alternate one for ourselves - one that makes real sociological sense rather than just employing utopian ideas that look good on paper.

Horny Goat wrote:Dear Cybernetic Jazz,
thank you for your response but I wonder if you realised I was taking the pee-pee? Are you by any chance an American? After a hard days masturbation and drinking one finds oneself in rather a silly mood and needs to entertain oneself. What-Ho old chap.

Yours sincerely,
An Englishman (and yes, I do enjoy tiffin with the Queen.)

Well bredren, just sounds like a time and place mismatch (ie. the Is Suicide Honorable? thread). Also we have people on my side of the pond who'd say what you said and might be perfectly serious about it!

That said get your arse down to a Metalheadz, Exit, or Renegade Hardware night and record it for me one of these days when you can manage it!