Original post: Arister
I disagree.
You might want to take a look at the 'psy miss' phenomenon, studied in parapsychology. Strong disbelievers perform just as well as strong believers... sort of.
Skepticism= weakness or strength?
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Skepticism= weakness or strength?
Original post: Hollyanne
Sorry Arister who are you disagreeing with? my comment or the general gist of the thread.
Sorry Arister who are you disagreeing with? my comment or the general gist of the thread.
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Skepticism= weakness or strength?
Original post: Draco_440
I think scepticism is extremely important, in dealing with the occult especialy, but being able to suspend that reflexive disbelief that many sceptics have to face is very important.
I also agree with Adept_Null that disbelief can banish very effectively, good or bad.
I think scepticism is extremely important, in dealing with the occult especialy, but being able to suspend that reflexive disbelief that many sceptics have to face is very important.
I also agree with Adept_Null that disbelief can banish very effectively, good or bad.
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Skepticism= weakness or strength?
Original post: Anathema_Oracle
The skeptic would be sitting with their arms folded across their chest in huffy annoyance!
They'd say that skepticism is a simple logic experiment to determine proofs using western rationalism to deduce, induce and interpret data..
It might seem a little quixotic of them to say they are skeptical but open to proof if they deny that non-physical reality is true..kind of kills the mood a bit.
The skeptic would be sitting with their arms folded across their chest in huffy annoyance!
They'd say that skepticism is a simple logic experiment to determine proofs using western rationalism to deduce, induce and interpret data..
It might seem a little quixotic of them to say they are skeptical but open to proof if they deny that non-physical reality is true..kind of kills the mood a bit.
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Skepticism= weakness or strength?
Original post: Samuel23
Aristippus stated that philosophers differ from other men in that they alone would not change their lives if all the laws of man were abolished.
What is the aim of magicianhood?
To become self directed, self realized, to set yourself up so that if all the laws of man were abolished there would be no cause in that event to change how you live your life, to be fully autonomous.
Magic is first and foremost a tool of liberty, therefor let the magician of the new millennium be a liberator.
What is liberty?
Liberty is the quality of autonomy in our own lives and in the lives of others. Magick is this liberty in action, what many magicians refer to as True Will. Because liberty is built on the foundations of agape and philos the autonomy of one can not infringe on the autonomy of the other.
The idea of truth is not applicable to liberty, any idea which is true by function begins to define other things as false. Liberty is the unifying function, it is the sameness that exists in all opposites. When we abandon the idea of truth as a quality of our beliefs and methods we arrive at a point where even the most disparate of people can achieve a meaningful comunion founded on liberty, which is to say founded on the autonomy that springs forth from agape and philos.
Sextus Empiricus said of Skepticism, "But the chief ground of Skepticism is that to every reason there is an opposite reason equivalent, which makes us forbear to dogmatize." He also noted that those who seek must find the truth, deny they have found(or can find) the truth, or persevere in the search.
In other words Dogmatists are people who think they have found the truth, Skeptics are people who continue to seek.
The Great Work,autonomy, is not a destination, but a process. The magician interested in liberty is advised to practice skepticism. Explore all avenues continuously, and shun the seductive stagnation of "truth". Liberty lies on the path of empiricism, where it's not a matter of what is true, it's a matter of what works. The healthy skeptic, the post modern magician in the perpetual search for greater liberty will embrace and embody the axiom "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted."
Or if you prefer Crowley, "In this book it is spoken of the sephiroth & the paths, of spirits conjurations, of gods, spheres, & planes & many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things, certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophical validity to any of them."
Aristippus stated that philosophers differ from other men in that they alone would not change their lives if all the laws of man were abolished.
What is the aim of magicianhood?
To become self directed, self realized, to set yourself up so that if all the laws of man were abolished there would be no cause in that event to change how you live your life, to be fully autonomous.
Magic is first and foremost a tool of liberty, therefor let the magician of the new millennium be a liberator.
What is liberty?
Liberty is the quality of autonomy in our own lives and in the lives of others. Magick is this liberty in action, what many magicians refer to as True Will. Because liberty is built on the foundations of agape and philos the autonomy of one can not infringe on the autonomy of the other.
The idea of truth is not applicable to liberty, any idea which is true by function begins to define other things as false. Liberty is the unifying function, it is the sameness that exists in all opposites. When we abandon the idea of truth as a quality of our beliefs and methods we arrive at a point where even the most disparate of people can achieve a meaningful comunion founded on liberty, which is to say founded on the autonomy that springs forth from agape and philos.
Sextus Empiricus said of Skepticism, "But the chief ground of Skepticism is that to every reason there is an opposite reason equivalent, which makes us forbear to dogmatize." He also noted that those who seek must find the truth, deny they have found(or can find) the truth, or persevere in the search.
In other words Dogmatists are people who think they have found the truth, Skeptics are people who continue to seek.
The Great Work,autonomy, is not a destination, but a process. The magician interested in liberty is advised to practice skepticism. Explore all avenues continuously, and shun the seductive stagnation of "truth". Liberty lies on the path of empiricism, where it's not a matter of what is true, it's a matter of what works. The healthy skeptic, the post modern magician in the perpetual search for greater liberty will embrace and embody the axiom "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted."
Or if you prefer Crowley, "In this book it is spoken of the sephiroth & the paths, of spirits conjurations, of gods, spheres, & planes & many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things, certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophical validity to any of them."
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Skepticism= weakness or strength?
Original post: Panu Nahka
[QUOTE=Samuel23]Aristippus stated that philosophers differ from other men in that they alone would not change their lives if all the laws of man were abolished.
What is the aim of magicianhood?
To become self directed, self realized, to set yourself up so that if all the laws of man were abolished there would be no cause in that event to change how you live your life, to be fully autonomous.
Magic is first and foremost a tool of liberty, therefor let the magician of the new millennium be a liberator.
What is liberty?
Liberty is the quality of autonomy in our own lives and in the lives of others. Magick is this liberty in action, what many magicians refer to as True Will. Because liberty is built on the foundations of agape and philos the autonomy of one can not infringe on the autonomy of the other.
The idea of truth is not applicable to liberty, any idea which is true by function begins to define other things as false. Liberty is the unifying function, it is the sameness that exists in all opposites. When we abandon the idea of truth as a quality of our beliefs and methods we arrive at a point where even the most disparate of people can achieve a meaningful comunion founded on liberty, which is to say founded on the autonomy that springs forth from agape and philos.
Sextus Empiricus said of Skepticism, "But the chief ground of Skepticism is that to every reason there is an opposite reason equivalent, which makes us forbear to dogmatize." He also noted that those who seek must find the truth, deny they have found(or can find) the truth, or persevere in the search.
In other words Dogmatists are people who think they have found the truth, Skeptics are people who continue to seek.
The Great Work,autonomy, is not a destination, but a process. The magician interested in liberty is advised to practice skepticism. Explore all avenues continuously, and shun the seductive stagnation of "truth". Liberty lies on the path of empiricism, where it's not a matter of what is true, it's a matter of what works. The healthy skeptic, the post modern magician in the perpetual search for greater liberty will embrace and embody the axiom "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted."
Or if you prefer Crowley, "In this book it is spoken of the sephiroth & the paths, of spirits conjurations, of gods, spheres, & planes & many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things, certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophical validity to any of them."[/QUOTE]
In a world defined by our beliefs and desires, there exists no real empiricism. Sure, science may seem empirical, but it's thus only because it's believed to work; magick, on the other hand, is mutable and prone to failure. It's said, that magick is "ninety percent luck, lies and self-confidence, while the last ten percent is the power". You may wish to think, that magick is somehow empirical, but think of this: evocation of various entities is very clearly possible. But it's not empirically possible, because if you take Joe Average from the street and tell him how to do evocation, he fails. He has neither understanding, nor belief, nor power to carry out such operation.
Reality can be understood only by limiting ones vision enough by paradigm, but not too much. Real liberation comes only by transcending those limitations, through understanding. Slave of dogma does not see the door, while sceptic does not see the walls.
[QUOTE=Samuel23]Aristippus stated that philosophers differ from other men in that they alone would not change their lives if all the laws of man were abolished.
What is the aim of magicianhood?
To become self directed, self realized, to set yourself up so that if all the laws of man were abolished there would be no cause in that event to change how you live your life, to be fully autonomous.
Magic is first and foremost a tool of liberty, therefor let the magician of the new millennium be a liberator.
What is liberty?
Liberty is the quality of autonomy in our own lives and in the lives of others. Magick is this liberty in action, what many magicians refer to as True Will. Because liberty is built on the foundations of agape and philos the autonomy of one can not infringe on the autonomy of the other.
The idea of truth is not applicable to liberty, any idea which is true by function begins to define other things as false. Liberty is the unifying function, it is the sameness that exists in all opposites. When we abandon the idea of truth as a quality of our beliefs and methods we arrive at a point where even the most disparate of people can achieve a meaningful comunion founded on liberty, which is to say founded on the autonomy that springs forth from agape and philos.
Sextus Empiricus said of Skepticism, "But the chief ground of Skepticism is that to every reason there is an opposite reason equivalent, which makes us forbear to dogmatize." He also noted that those who seek must find the truth, deny they have found(or can find) the truth, or persevere in the search.
In other words Dogmatists are people who think they have found the truth, Skeptics are people who continue to seek.
The Great Work,autonomy, is not a destination, but a process. The magician interested in liberty is advised to practice skepticism. Explore all avenues continuously, and shun the seductive stagnation of "truth". Liberty lies on the path of empiricism, where it's not a matter of what is true, it's a matter of what works. The healthy skeptic, the post modern magician in the perpetual search for greater liberty will embrace and embody the axiom "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted."
Or if you prefer Crowley, "In this book it is spoken of the sephiroth & the paths, of spirits conjurations, of gods, spheres, & planes & many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things, certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophical validity to any of them."[/QUOTE]
In a world defined by our beliefs and desires, there exists no real empiricism. Sure, science may seem empirical, but it's thus only because it's believed to work; magick, on the other hand, is mutable and prone to failure. It's said, that magick is "ninety percent luck, lies and self-confidence, while the last ten percent is the power". You may wish to think, that magick is somehow empirical, but think of this: evocation of various entities is very clearly possible. But it's not empirically possible, because if you take Joe Average from the street and tell him how to do evocation, he fails. He has neither understanding, nor belief, nor power to carry out such operation.
Reality can be understood only by limiting ones vision enough by paradigm, but not too much. Real liberation comes only by transcending those limitations, through understanding. Slave of dogma does not see the door, while sceptic does not see the walls.
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Skepticism= weakness or strength?
Original post: ChaosTech
Didn't Buddha say something like "believe nothing I say, but go find out for yourself if what I say is true."
Sounds like skepticism from an eastern point of view, which is similar to the paths most of us tred, being spiritual, that is personal, and so paths of knowing, and not religious, that is paths of faith, is vital to spiritual development.
Faith, which is really hope that what one holds as true is indeed true, is not bad though. As whom among us, knows it all?
It's all relative as always, as to what each and every one of us, wants to do and so be(come).
Didn't Buddha say something like "believe nothing I say, but go find out for yourself if what I say is true."
Sounds like skepticism from an eastern point of view, which is similar to the paths most of us tred, being spiritual, that is personal, and so paths of knowing, and not religious, that is paths of faith, is vital to spiritual development.
Faith, which is really hope that what one holds as true is indeed true, is not bad though. As whom among us, knows it all?
It's all relative as always, as to what each and every one of us, wants to do and so be(come).
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Skepticism= weakness or strength?
Original post: ChaosTech
Also this might help diffuse this arguement and make everyone happy:
Belief = Any cognitive content held as true.
Disbelief = Any cognitive content held as false.
Faith = Reliance on testimony (what others hold as true or false).
Doubt = Uncertainty of the validity of something.
Knowledge = The psychological result of perception and learning and reasoning (reliance on experience).
Truth = That which conforms to reality or actuality.
Untruth = That which deviates from reality or actuality.
Skepticism = An undecided, inquiring state of mind; doubt; uncertainty.
Agnosticism = A religious orientation of doubt, the disbelief in any claims of ultimate knowledge.
I must admit though, all language, especially english, is a bitch to convey meaning (communicate), at many times. The reason being that many words, like all of the above, have alternate meanings which although go along similar lines as the definitions above, slightly or greatly deviate because of the appliance of them to things outside of their original contents. Infact some of the definitions above although the norm (presently common), originally did not mean as such, either partially or even fully.
Someone needs to create a clearly defined (that is only one definition per word), language, and the entire world adopt it. The problem with our present languages, old and new, is that they were not created all at once, but evolved over time. Confusion in every human conversation, is usually the end result to a degree atleast.
Or just fuck using audio vibrations to communicate. Everyone needs to become telepathic ( :lol: Just kidding, you think words are bad, try subconscious interference :lol: ).
Also this might help diffuse this arguement and make everyone happy:
Belief = Any cognitive content held as true.
Disbelief = Any cognitive content held as false.
Faith = Reliance on testimony (what others hold as true or false).
Doubt = Uncertainty of the validity of something.
Knowledge = The psychological result of perception and learning and reasoning (reliance on experience).
Truth = That which conforms to reality or actuality.
Untruth = That which deviates from reality or actuality.
Skepticism = An undecided, inquiring state of mind; doubt; uncertainty.
Agnosticism = A religious orientation of doubt, the disbelief in any claims of ultimate knowledge.
I must admit though, all language, especially english, is a bitch to convey meaning (communicate), at many times. The reason being that many words, like all of the above, have alternate meanings which although go along similar lines as the definitions above, slightly or greatly deviate because of the appliance of them to things outside of their original contents. Infact some of the definitions above although the norm (presently common), originally did not mean as such, either partially or even fully.
Someone needs to create a clearly defined (that is only one definition per word), language, and the entire world adopt it. The problem with our present languages, old and new, is that they were not created all at once, but evolved over time. Confusion in every human conversation, is usually the end result to a degree atleast.
Or just fuck using audio vibrations to communicate. Everyone needs to become telepathic ( :lol: Just kidding, you think words are bad, try subconscious interference :lol: ).
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Skepticism= weakness or strength?
Original post: Blutgeliebter
Personally I find that skepticism can be beneficial. However, I also equate skepticism and critical thinking in my personal definitions. Just because someone writes or states something, it does not establish that such is true or correct, one must examine the evidence, and/or research the situation, and/or perform their own experimentation on the matter at hand. However, if there is no evidence, no way to research and experimentation is not possible, I register the situation with I have no knowledge to its truth and place it on a back burner until a day arises that either it can be substantiated or discarded. I just cannot accept or believe everything, I must stop and say "wait a minute" and attempt an analysis . . . I feel that it is a way to gain knowledge. Anyway, just my $0.02
Personally I find that skepticism can be beneficial. However, I also equate skepticism and critical thinking in my personal definitions. Just because someone writes or states something, it does not establish that such is true or correct, one must examine the evidence, and/or research the situation, and/or perform their own experimentation on the matter at hand. However, if there is no evidence, no way to research and experimentation is not possible, I register the situation with I have no knowledge to its truth and place it on a back burner until a day arises that either it can be substantiated or discarded. I just cannot accept or believe everything, I must stop and say "wait a minute" and attempt an analysis . . . I feel that it is a way to gain knowledge. Anyway, just my $0.02
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Skepticism= weakness or strength?
Original post: Sharandarikali
[QUOTE=ChaosTech;143739]Also this might help diffuse this arguement and make everyone happy:
Belief = Any cognitive content held as true.
Disbelief = Any cognitive content held as false.
Faith = Reliance on testimony (what others hold as true or false).
Doubt = Uncertainty of the validity of something.
Knowledge = The psychological result of perception and learning and reasoning (reliance on experience).
Truth = That which conforms to reality or actuality.
Untruth = That which deviates from reality or actuality.
Skepticism = An undecided, inquiring state of mind; doubt; uncertainty.
Agnosticism = A religious orientation of doubt, the disbelief in any claims of ultimate knowledge.
I must admit though, all language, especially english, is a bitch to convey meaning (communicate), at many times. The reason being that many words, like all of the above, have alternate meanings which although go along similar lines as the definitions above, slightly or greatly deviate because of the appliance of them to things outside of their original contents. Infact some of the definitions above although the norm (presently common), originally did not mean as such, either partially or even fully.
Someone needs to create a clearly defined (that is only one definition per word), language, and the entire world adopt it. The problem with our present languages, old and new, is that they were not created all at once, but evolved over time. Confusion in every human conversation, is usually the end result to a degree atleast.
Or just fuck using audio vibrations to communicate. Everyone needs to become telepathic ( :lol: Just kidding, you think words are bad, try subconscious interference :lol: ).[/QUOTE]
Hi I remember you. :l
If you can learn to detect resonance then the world might be a better place. Most people are too busy talking and writing, or wanting to be heard to *pay attention* to the subtle undercurrents of communication. I work with a number of musicians, and all of them are able to tap into the subtle currents of communication simply because they are attuned to focus on pitch and very soft changes in the audio levels. Therefore this comes off as a kind of extra sense in communication. Because they are able to do this, I have also found that other musicians are also quite surprisingly psychic. True skepticism is a strength. However, sometimes it is just fear of the unknown, and stubborness that causes us weakness, and this is often pressed as an issue of healthy skepticism, when in fact it is not.
[QUOTE=ChaosTech;143739]Also this might help diffuse this arguement and make everyone happy:
Belief = Any cognitive content held as true.
Disbelief = Any cognitive content held as false.
Faith = Reliance on testimony (what others hold as true or false).
Doubt = Uncertainty of the validity of something.
Knowledge = The psychological result of perception and learning and reasoning (reliance on experience).
Truth = That which conforms to reality or actuality.
Untruth = That which deviates from reality or actuality.
Skepticism = An undecided, inquiring state of mind; doubt; uncertainty.
Agnosticism = A religious orientation of doubt, the disbelief in any claims of ultimate knowledge.
I must admit though, all language, especially english, is a bitch to convey meaning (communicate), at many times. The reason being that many words, like all of the above, have alternate meanings which although go along similar lines as the definitions above, slightly or greatly deviate because of the appliance of them to things outside of their original contents. Infact some of the definitions above although the norm (presently common), originally did not mean as such, either partially or even fully.
Someone needs to create a clearly defined (that is only one definition per word), language, and the entire world adopt it. The problem with our present languages, old and new, is that they were not created all at once, but evolved over time. Confusion in every human conversation, is usually the end result to a degree atleast.
Or just fuck using audio vibrations to communicate. Everyone needs to become telepathic ( :lol: Just kidding, you think words are bad, try subconscious interference :lol: ).[/QUOTE]
Hi I remember you. :l
If you can learn to detect resonance then the world might be a better place. Most people are too busy talking and writing, or wanting to be heard to *pay attention* to the subtle undercurrents of communication. I work with a number of musicians, and all of them are able to tap into the subtle currents of communication simply because they are attuned to focus on pitch and very soft changes in the audio levels. Therefore this comes off as a kind of extra sense in communication. Because they are able to do this, I have also found that other musicians are also quite surprisingly psychic. True skepticism is a strength. However, sometimes it is just fear of the unknown, and stubborness that causes us weakness, and this is often pressed as an issue of healthy skepticism, when in fact it is not.
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Skepticism= weakness or strength?
Original post: Scarlett_156
I haven't read every single post in this thread, so if this has already been addressed, I apologize.
I am a skeptic who invests belief in everything.
Example: A vacuum cleaner salesman comes to the door. As I stand on the porch listening to him talk, I think that he is probably full of shit. Nevertheless, there is something in his presentation that intrigues me.
Maybe he's not full of shit..? (My skepticism extends itself to my own beliefs.)
I allow the vacuum cleaner salesman to come into my home and demonstrate the properties of his machine. It may take an hour or so of my time, but so what? A good vacuum cleaner is a worthy thing to have.
If the vacuum cleaner salesman's initial presentation is lackluster, I allow my skepticism to rule. I listen to him for a few minutes, and then say: "Sorry, dude, but I'm working and there's no way I can ask for a demonstration--can you come back next week?"
Belief is like a great ocean; there is always more of it whenever you need or want it. It never asks anything or requires anything of the believer.
Skepticism is like a pair of sunglasses. You can wear it indoors or outdoors, and it always makes you look cool, but sometimes it's to your best advantage to take it off.
I hope this was helpful. xoxo
I haven't read every single post in this thread, so if this has already been addressed, I apologize.
I am a skeptic who invests belief in everything.
Example: A vacuum cleaner salesman comes to the door. As I stand on the porch listening to him talk, I think that he is probably full of shit. Nevertheless, there is something in his presentation that intrigues me.
Maybe he's not full of shit..? (My skepticism extends itself to my own beliefs.)
I allow the vacuum cleaner salesman to come into my home and demonstrate the properties of his machine. It may take an hour or so of my time, but so what? A good vacuum cleaner is a worthy thing to have.
If the vacuum cleaner salesman's initial presentation is lackluster, I allow my skepticism to rule. I listen to him for a few minutes, and then say: "Sorry, dude, but I'm working and there's no way I can ask for a demonstration--can you come back next week?"
Belief is like a great ocean; there is always more of it whenever you need or want it. It never asks anything or requires anything of the believer.
Skepticism is like a pair of sunglasses. You can wear it indoors or outdoors, and it always makes you look cool, but sometimes it's to your best advantage to take it off.
I hope this was helpful. xoxo
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Skepticism= weakness or strength?
Original post: koolbear05
Thanks to skeptics I'm not in a mental hospital right now. When I hear something too good to be true and I really want it to be true, skeptics bring me back it reality.
Thank you to all the brilliant skeptics out there!
Thanks to skeptics I'm not in a mental hospital right now. When I hear something too good to be true and I really want it to be true, skeptics bring me back it reality.
Thank you to all the brilliant skeptics out there!