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Hitler is not Ghandi, however Ghandi could have been Hitler and Hitler could have been Ghandi.

Shin: I believe I spoke to your response in my last to Rose.

Again, I'm grateful.

In regards to the OMNIA song.....
I think we failed when we separated ourselves from animals. The message is a good one, but a better one would point out our similarities I think.

Wow. I just love wasting so much time. How about you, Shin? He knows it all LOL

In the "Thoughtforms vs Actual Entities" thread I mentioned the medium which consciousness acts upon seems to be what everyone else throughout history has confused as God.

Sure - cuz you speak for everyone else throughout history even and the occult community as a whole. Please. Let me know when you're ready to have a serious discussion without the sweeping generalities.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the importance seems to be where along the assembly line of manifestation that work takes place. However, never brushing your teeth can have dire consequences if one is unable to maintain the "perfect" diet. I would love for you to expand on this more if you're up to it.

You're not ready to understand it and I'm not going to waste much more time with this. That ain't it.

Someone once told me that a great spell for satisfying your hunger is to make a bowl of cereal. I believe magick to be the underpinning force behind reality as we know it. Therefore simply being alive is practicing magick. This is another scope and scale thing. For example; humans were the first creatures on this earth who's minds had the pattern matching ability to "experience" the magick. The rest is history. In my opinion its not that some people practice magick and others don't. Some simply have a greater understanding of what they are doing and are able to use this understanding to accomplish more perhaps. If we want to talk about the scale though, the power and manifestations of the masses seems to outweigh the desires of the largest "magickal" organizations. This is my experience. This has caused most "magickal" organizations to focus on satisfying their individual desires.

Whatever. That is loaded with supposition and unprovable claims. You talk an awful lot about things you do not understand.

The details here are only important if you subscribe to a particular paradigm, which I don't. Sorry. I've had people call it many things. The best way I've found to describe it is with the spirit animal parallel. I like to think I walk with the entire kingdom of nature beside me. However, the animal that has served me the most is the hawk. He appears for me in physical form as well, no matter where I seem to be. Out in nature, downtown amidst skyscrapers, in the valleys of Afghanistan, the rolling hills of Germany, or the mountains of Japan. Paradigms to me are like sunglasses. I have a bag full of em, but they don't change what I'm experiencing. Only how I relate it to the rest of the world.

If you say so.

The 'unimportant details' cross cultures and paradigms because many of these things are universal. Some cultures explain it in easier ways than others. Try to think of it as a way to better understand what you're experiencing and putting it into perspective.

Yet, why do we still subscribe to their paradigms?

Who the hell says we all do other than you? Nobody. At least not in this conversation. Again with the sweeping generalities.

I agree and another lense to animism is that the plant has its own consciousness. There are all sorts of affinities tied to the rose bush because of the path it chose in life. Again, the details aren't important in this discussion and whatever point I'm trying to make.

And I thought that was apparent when I said it has a spirit. Spirits are conscious entities. And you're wrong - the details are important.

However, I do believe in the relationship we have with the entirety of creation and that its a relationship that should be fostered.

Then you should really stop discrediting the things you are ignorant about. If you truly believe above the above sentence then you really don't get it.

In regards to humanity, we have all the solutions for our current problems, its only a matter of time before they bubble to the surface, or the proper people who can place them into action.

You have too much faith in a species that falls into the trappings of 'mob mentality' on a whim. Whatever - that's your deal.

RR- Do you realize how dismissive and insulting you are being towards Low Magic while just beginning to touch upon the main topic headings of it?

magari - I do realize this and I apologize. I understand that it works and it serves a lot of people very well, however there is a very good reason its not practiced by humanity overall, especially in the communities that govern the rest of us. I believe that reason to be that its simply not as powerful as it once was due to the current paradigm most of us grow up in and accept. Atheism (for example) is a paradigm and it has its rituals and spells just like the rest of us.

No, the simple truth is that you don't understand. This paragraph, by itself, shows the level of your ignorance concerning these things. I am not talking about folk magic. I am talking about magic outside of the Ceremonial Arena. Another self proclaimed expert in things they know nothing about.

Getting world leaders to agree on something is an even greater exercise in my opinion, however the state of the individual is dependent upon it and great things come from it.

World leaders even. Really? It hurts when those pedastals come tumbling down.

Again, I really appreciate your time and attention Rose, but I'm not here looking for help. I'm testing my ability to express myself amongst practitioners. If he would like to participate in this conversation I encourage it, but I'm not looking for anything nor am I at a loss for understanding. In my opinion there is a very good reason you are reading this before he is and others like manonthepath have stayed silent.

You should be. You've come to quite a few inaccurate conclusions. There are many thing that you don't understand. Yeah, manonthepath doesn't like you and thinks that most of your conclusions are wrong. He just stays quiet instead of having conversations like this.

Now, understand something else here - my time and attention isn't just for you. Others will come along and read this and learn from it.

You have a lot to learn about expressing yourself among other practitioners. This thread is proof of that.

I am currently exploring options for fulfilling a role within society that resonates with the majority. I would love to be as versed in "Low Magick" as a lot of you are, however my experiments and results have been more than satisfying and it doesn't require me to understand the complexities of a hierarchy of angels or demons, or what incense needs burning

Again - you're ignorance is showing. You know nothing of what you speak.

I apologize if I hit a nerve. I can see how your Lonely Path and failing health correlates to what I've said about dismissing humanity and being cancerous.

I am sorry, but I am grateful.

You didn't hit a nerve. I was explaining something to you.. You have no idea how that correlates, dude.

I think you'll figure it out someday.

If the community was enlightened one would think it would be seeking union and not separation.

However this is obviously not whats happening in this conversation.

I speak in sweeping generalizations just as everything seems to exist in generalizations, but only for myself, yet my voice is a human one.

I descend;

You seem ruled by your ego here; insisting on the differences between you as an individual and the community which studies the occult.

I descend further;

Treating everyone else like a child is easy isn't it? I maintain my respect for your wisdom and see the divine in you where you obviously don't see the divine in me.

I descend even further;

You will learn the differences between you and everything else will only serve you when it keeps you alive and makes you happy. This is indeed incredibly selfish and a part of the nature/nurter reality in which we exist. The best we can hope for here is balance. I understand my intense nature perspective and opinion and am constantly maintaining that balance. You seemed to have lost it somewhere when your emotions began to rule your writing. I thought it might have been because of what I said above and I apologized for that.

Again, I am grateful, but I will seek the end to this conversation elsewhere.

I know what I was doing......


I was looking at the exact opposite of war and everything it represents. Hoping to find another who's focus was as intense as mine.

This explains the catalyst of hearing EA Koetting's claim to be a revolutionary. In my opinion an enlightened individual is anything but.

Jesus was a good example.

I couldn't have seen this without you guys.

What a lesson. I encourage everyone to reread from start to finish with whatever understanding you have now.

Again, the devil isn't in the details.

You really don't get it. I'm tired of trying to explain it.

You make it easy when you come out with childish bullshit and are so proud of the things you're ignorant of. The reason I use the word ignorant is because you have no desire to further your education into these areas. You choose to remain unknowing. Is that so you can feel falsely superior in your ignorance? That precious pedestal of yours may not hold up under the scrutiny of Truth.

oooohhh - I said something you didn't like. Therefore, my post is emotional and easily ignored. Now you want to discuss Namaste? Really? Do you truly not see the hypocrisy here? I don't actually expect you to.

Do you really and truly believe that you're the first person we've come across that has hit this point and thinks they have it all figured out? Please. Perhaps you should start by figuring out why you have such a problem with details. It's actually a good place to start.

Come back and reread this thread in a year. Maybe then you'll actually get some of the very basic and simple lessons that have been spelled out for you and that you still refuse to acknowledge. Then come back in a decade and let us know if you still hold these 'truths' to be true.

This explains the catalyst of hearing EA Koetting's claim to be a revolutionary. In my opinion an enlightened individual is anything but.

Jesus was a good example.

Seriously?!? Jesus was not a revolutionary? He wasn't killed by the state for almost starting a riot at the Temple?

Yeah, Jesus was a Boss.

Instead of fighting the will of the government and encouraging his followers to take up arms he submitted to it, got crucified, and cemented monotheism in society. However, because he was in union with the will of the divine something magickal happened. The riots were incited by the leaders of the church who insisted on separation from God when the masses obviously knew the truth.

A revolutionary would be someone like Paul Revere or Che Guevara.

I plan on rereading this again, definitely. I'm always learning and I apologize if you feel like I have been making accusations.

I do speak in generalizations that tend to upset people who aren't willing to listen to wisdom.

Women are physically weaker than men. There is one. I have no problem writing this statement and having a conversation based on this understanding while also knowing that there are a lot of women who are physically stronger than a lot of men. The point isn't that women are physically weaker than men, the point is further down the line after we have used this perspective and understanding to look a string of thoughts to eventually come full circle and find truth.

Like I said, you guys kept getting lost in the details.
The truth I found in this conversation we just had is that enlightened people typically are not the type to pick up the sword or the gun against his fellow man.

But we knew that already didn't we [rofl]

magari wrote:Shin: I believe I spoke to your response in my last to Rose.

You answered plenty, yes. [gz]

RoseRed wrote:Wow. I just love wasting so much time. How about you, Shin? He knows it all LOL

Patience. A seed planted takes time to blossom, and it does not matter that we may not see it. Someone will.

Also, do not forget our audience. This has been a very public exchange, and more than one seed will be planted and grow because of it. Some will grow faster than others, but nothing here is wasted.

magari wrote:You seem ruled by your ego here; insisting on the differences between you as an individual and the community which studies the occult.

When you have transferred your mind into an Ant and experienced the life of a colony; when you have expanded your Awareness to encompass an entire forest and experienced the spirit and soul of every single different thing inside of it as part of your Self; when you have shared your consciousness with a deity and seen beyond the threads of time and reality itself; when you have gazed across The Abyss and into the eye of the Thing that stares back. . .

When you have done those things, come and speak of ego and oneness. Until then, let me remind you that the only person in this discussion that has given even even a thought to such a thing as ego is you. Until then, let me remind you that your idea of oneness is just an idea, and you are still a separate, individual, different ego just like everyone else. And even once you have done those things, you will come back and you will still be a separate, individual, different ego just like everyone else.

Self-Realization does not make you a god, and it does not destroy the ego. It just lets you become the real you. I do see the divine in you, Magari, but I also see that its light is suppressed.



~:Shin:~

You know what the problem is?

Our incredible lack of measurable credibility.

However we are seeking union through a medium (english) that cannot symbolize the intricacies of the experience.

This is why there is no credibility amongst the community and no union either. Maybe I have a problem with this, maybe I don't. Right now I do, but its ok. I think we all know our hearts are in the right place.

When you have transferred your mind into an Ant and experienced the life of a colony; when you have expanded your Awareness to encompass an entire forest and experienced the spirit and soul of every single different thing inside of it as part of your Self; when you have shared your consciousness with a deity and seen beyond the threads of time and reality itself; when you have gazed across The Abyss and into the eye of the Thing that stares back. . .

This is where credibility comes into play. How do we know whether or not we've had this experience?

I will say with confidence I have gazed across the abyss. I have walked the razors edge, stepped through the eye of the needle, ect. However, my choice of words, obviously, will never be yours and I'm fine with that because I seek the similarities in our experiences and not the differences. I understand how unique this experience is, however its obvious we are all staring across the same abyss, walking the same razor, and have stepped through the eye of the needle. The only way to know for sure is to measure the similarities. I can't confidently say that Rose has had these experiences or that she knew what was going on when she had them. However, Shin, to me, it seems you are the more likely candidate. This is my credibility ranking and its based on the feelings I get from the words you choose to write. Rose has thrown up her defences for fear of what, I dunno.

Ego is the part of us that desires the separation, the differences, the things that make us unique and individual. This serves us only as it keeps us alive and makes us happy. However, I am speaking not from this perspective, but from the perspective of the one thing thats staring back at us from the abyss, yet seems to be cut from the same cloth as every individual particle and being on this damned rock. This is why I keep saying the devil is NOT in the details. I am attempting a very difficult conversation. Difficult enough for two people sharing the experience, let alone for two who have experienced it uniquely and are attempting communication from remote locations.

magari wrote:How do we know whether or not we've had this experience?

It's a rather unmistakable thing. I have looked into the Abyss because of very unique circumstances that allowed me to acquire a certain Clairvoyance, but you must understand that there is a difference between Seeing the Abyss and crossing it. I have not crossed it, and I do not think you have either.

magari wrote:Rose has thrown up her defences for fear of what, I dunno.

She is not afraid, she is tired. What she and I have been doing is not easy for us.

magari wrote:Ego is the part of us that desires the separation, the differences, the things that make us unique and individual. This serves us only as it keeps us alive and makes us happy.

Except that when you die or when you are sad, you are still a unique Microcosm. The thing that you are calling Ego is not what makes you different, it's just what helps you experience the difference. Even when the "ego" is sacrificed in the flames of spiritual practice and the Higher Self descends to take its place, you are still a unique Microcosm that is different from every other.

Recall the vision of Crowley: every man and woman is a star. He saw The All, and within The All he saw countless stars -- the shining flames of every individual Microcosm that stood within The All. Every single star is within and is a part of The All, and it is simultaneously different and unique from every other star.

The Star is not Ego, it is your Spirit.

magari wrote:However, I am speaking not from this perspective, but from the perspective of the one thing thats staring back at us from the abyss, yet seems to be cut from the same cloth as every individual particle and being on this damned rock.

But you are not the thing in the abyss, and even if you were to somehow achieve that union one day you will still not really be the thing in the abyss. Crowley achieved that and he was still Aleister Crowley, lazy eccentric asshole extraordinaire. You are you and you will always be you, a unique and individual microcosm. You will change and transform a thousand and ten thousand times, but no matter how much oneness you experience you will always be a unique and beautiful microcosm. To destroy that, to merge with The All completely and permanently, to cross the Abyss and not come back -- that is something much different than enlightenment.

magari wrote:This is why I keep saying the devil is NOT in the details.

The devil isn't, but God is. [gz]


~:Shin:~

I've acknowledged multiple times that these differences are very real and important.

I'm trying to shift your focus for a moment to attempt a conversation from a broader perspective.

I'm trying to talk about the plant, not the differences between the roots and the leaves. While the roots desire something entirely different than the leaves. Both are heavily dependant upon rain and sunshine. You may point out that the rain serves the roots while the sunshine serves the leaves, however the roots cannot grow without the leaves ability to acquire sunlight and the leaves cannot grow without the roots ability to absorb moisture. They are dependant upon each other.
I was attempting a conversation from the perspective of rain and sunshine on the wellbeing of a plant at war with itself. There is no possible way we could come to a conclusion regarding the well being of the plant if you insist on the details. The details will work themselves out once we make a decision. If we decide the plant needs to start growing a bit to the left then there are intricacies that come into play. However, you obviously can't see which direction the plant should grow when your nose is buried in the dirt.

On top of that. You two don't seem the slightest bit interested in the overall well-being of the plant. Thats unfortunate because like I stated earlier, enlightened individuals in my experience are seeking union with what they are and not the opposite. You two don't seem the type. Its not apathy I feel. Apathy would be a good excuse, however even as everyone and everything will be "ok" from the perspective of the universe, that doesn't mean you should deny the will of the larger organism. One that came before you and will exist long after you're gone, whether or not you desire it. It felt more to me like the two of you despise the current perspective of the masses instead of understanding really how we got here and where we are going.

Thats all.

However, we are beginning to repeat ourselves. I don't want to have the conversation you two seem insistent on having and you two don't seem willing to have the conversation I want.

Its ok. It just doesn't serve me or mines anymore.

magari wrote:I was attempting a conversation from the perspective of rain and sunshine on the wellbeing of a plant at war with itself.

But the plant is not at war with itself, and it is part of a larger garden. We all have our own little corner of the garden to tend to, and even if it doesn't rain we can water the plants there and everything is fine there. The garden is not at war with itself either, some people just are not tending to their little corners, and we cannot go take care of their corner without letting ours suffer for the absence. No matter how painful it sometimes is to watch the other parts of the garden wither, we only have the power to take care of our little corner regardless of how One we are with the whole garden.

And that is all. I do not despise the masses, Magari, I simply am not responsible for them and neither are you.



~:Shin:~

magari wrote:I've acknowledged multiple times that these differences are very real and important.

I'm trying to shift your focus for a moment to attempt a conversation from a broader perspective.

I'm trying to talk about the plant, not the differences between the roots and the leaves. While the roots desire something entirely different than the leaves. Both are heavily dependant upon rain and sunshine. You may point out that the rain serves the roots while the sunshine serves the leaves, however the roots cannot grow without the leaves ability to acquire sunlight and the leaves cannot grow without the roots ability to absorb moisture. They are dependant upon each other.
I was attempting a conversation from the perspective of rain and sunshine on the wellbeing of a plant at war with itself. There is no possible way we could come to a conclusion regarding the well being of the plant if you insist on the details. The details will work themselves out once we make a decision. If we decide the plant needs to start growing a bit to the left then there are intricacies that come into play. However, you obviously can't see which direction the plant should grow when your nose is buried in the dirt.

On top of that. You two don't seem the slightest bit interested in the overall well-being of the plant. Thats unfortunate because like I stated earlier, enlightened individuals in my experience are seeking union with what they are and not the opposite. You two don't seem the type. Its not apathy I feel. Apathy would be a good excuse, however even as everyone and everything will be "ok" from the perspective of the universe, that doesn't mean you should deny the will of the larger organism. One that came before you and will exist long after you're gone, whether or not you desire it. It felt more to me like the two of you despise the current perspective of the masses instead of understanding really how we got here and where we are going.

Thats all.

However, we are beginning to repeat ourselves. I don't want to have the conversation you two seem insistent on having and you two don't seem willing to have the conversation I want.

Its ok. It just doesn't serve me or mines anymore.

Sorry buddy, but now you are just being hiding behind arrogance. It is not ignorance anymore, simply arrogance.
There is something before you which you cannot comprehend with your current experience (which you seemingly keep as a measure for everything and everybody else) that according to you seems to be the measure of all things.

This won't get you very far, even if you insist on this whole "Love for humanity"-thing. Doesn't seem like a mutual thing to me.

Just to blow your plant analogy, there is another detail about plants: Cut of a big enough piece of it, a leave or a root and a whole new plant will emerge, a whole new organism.

Ramscha

The twists and turns of this conversation are just blowing my mind. I'll just start at the top - again. It's been a long time since I've seen anyone cling to bullshit this hard.

magari - I keep telling you that the image you have in your head about me is inaccurate. You don't listen. And you're so not 'open' to Truth unless it already fits into your preconceived notions. I find this sad and disappointing - I expected more from you.

If the community was enlightened one would think it would be seeking union and not separation.

You keep going on about the 'enlightened' and all those 'bright minds' that what? You want to bring into your fold with your super-psychic tarot guessing abilities? All those 'bright minds' turning to chaos magick? Please. You really should find a new crowd to hang out with.

And yet, another sweeping generalization - you cannot comment on the 'community' as a whole because of your interaction with 2 people who are a part of it. There is a huge difference between seeking separation and explaining to you how things really are versus the romanticized bullshit you have stuck in your head. But - you don't want to hear it. You have this grand idea of how things should be. Go. Change it. Make it into your image. Let me know how that works out for you.

Oh, yeah, back to the enlightened thing. Chop wood, carry water, dude. Do you have any idea what the moral of that parable is?

I speak in sweeping generalizations just as everything seems to exist in generalizations, but only for myself, yet my voice is a human one.

I do speak in generalizations that tend to upset people who aren't willing to listen to wisdom.

You are the one that asked about his conversational and presentation skills when it comes to conversing with the 'community'. If you actually want to get into a higher caliber of conversation then please do. It has nothing to do with listening to wisdom. It has to do with actually knowing what you're talking about. It has to do with facts and data. No one is going to take you seriously until you actually put in some research time.

If you continue to only look at the surface of things you will continue to come to inaccurate conclusions.

Yeah, Jesus was a Boss.

Instead of fighting the will of the government and encouraging his followers to take up arms he submitted to it, got crucified, and cemented monotheism in society. However, because he was in union with the will of the divine something magickal happened. The riots were incited by the leaders of the church who insisted on separation from God when the masses obviously knew the truth.

You should do a little more research. Seriously.

Like I said, you guys kept getting lost in the details.
The truth I found in this conversation we just had is that enlightened people typically are not the type to pick up the sword or the gun against his fellow man.

LMFAO. Oh, really?!?!?!? We're not the ones that are lost here.

There's that word 'enlightened' again. LOL Wow!!!

Shin - Patience. A seed planted takes time to blossom, and it does not matter that we may not see it. Someone will.

Also, do not forget our audience. This has been a very public exchange, and more than one seed will be planted and grow because of it. Some will grow faster than others, but nothing here is wasted.

Yeah, I know. I only have so much patience and I've about used it all up in this thread.

You seem ruled by your ego here; insisting on the differences between you as an individual and the community which studies the occult.

No, not even close. Merely pointing out that those of us who make up the occult community have varying beliefs that take up the extremes of opposites is telling you how it really is. You're not going to find a whole lot oh Kumbaya going on outside of smaller and more private circles. If you want to go roast marshmallows - have at it.

You know what the problem is?

Our incredible lack of measurable credibility.

How typical. I really did expect more from you.

Blatantly ignoring anything that doesn't line up with his world view is met with attacks. Credibility, the delicate sensibilities of emotional women (LMFAO). And it only gets better - wait.

It's called Verification. If you can't verify what you do - you'll probably not doing much of anything.

his is where credibility comes into play. How do we know whether or not we've had this experience?

I will say with confidence I have gazed across the abyss. I have walked the razors edge, stepped through the eye of the needle, ect. However, my choice of words, obviously, will never be yours and I'm fine with that because I seek the similarities in our experiences and not the differences. I understand how unique this experience is, however its obvious we are all staring across the same abyss, walking the same razor, and have stepped through the eye of the needle. The only way to know for sure is to measure the similarities.

Of course you can say that with confidence. What you don't yet realize is that there is more than one Abyss. It's not all the same razor blade, it's not all the same Thing staring back at you. Each Abyss has it's own Guardian. You met one of them.

It's not a unique experience. It's the mark of a practitioner. Just like being able to wield magic on your feet or in the middle of a situation. You don't graduate Occult Preschool until you can do that. (oooh - I can be arrogant, too. LOL)

But where's your credibility? Why should we believe that you've ever even made it to the edge of the Abyss? What have you told us to verify that? Nothing yet. There are very specific things that are a part of that. We can tell who really has and hasn't by their descriptions of it. Unless you're willing to share a little more detail - you have to be taken at your word.

As it turns out - I do believe you but all of your own arguments can be easily turned back on you. Prove it. Or don't. It doesn't really matter to me. My time of giving a shit about you and your progress is just about done.

I can't confidently say that Rose has had these experiences or that she knew what was going on when she had them. However, Shin, to me, it seems you are the more likely candidate. This is my credibility ranking and its based on the feelings I get from the words you choose to write. Rose has thrown up her defences for fear of what, I dunno.

Well, then, I guess it's a good thing that your belief and approval are not required. LOL

My defenses aren't up, sweetheart. I only have so much patience - especially when dealing with Children who would rather stick their fingers in their ears than learn something. (Oh, and to let you know - wherever there is an LOL - I really am laughing. I've had this conversation before. It gets old.

To answer your question from before about treating people like children - the world Childe has a set definition. It is used to describe anyone in the beginning stages of the Journey or Path. If you are going to act as a Childe then don't be surprised if you are treated as one.

The point that you are at now is like a reset point in a video game. You finally hit the first marker. If you lose your place you don't have to start at square 1 again. Congrats. It's a big step on the Occult Paths. Now is when the real learning and understanding begins to take place. Shin and I are prepping you for what's to come (and for anyone who comes after you and learns from this. Some of the best threads are well hidden under titles that have nothing to do with them. Those that are meant to find them and learn from them - will.)

So, please, in your infinite wisdom - tell me what it is that I'm afraid of. Speak to me of this fear you have instilled in me LMFAO. Really, dude? Are you fucking serious? Why don't you pull your head out of your ass. It's a very different view from on top of your neck.

Ego is the part of us that desires the separation, the differences, the things that make us unique and individual. This serves us only as it keeps us alive and makes us happy. However, I am speaking not from this perspective, but from the perspective of the one thing thats staring back at us from the abyss, yet seems to be cut from the same cloth as every individual particle and being on this damned rock.

Damned rock? Well, that's not what you said before about nature and all that.

You are speaking from the perspective of what stared back at you over the Abyss? Do you really believe that?

You did the same thing with that Mountain Spirit. You're over-inflating it because you have no frame of reference.

This is why I keep saying the devil is NOT in the details. I am attempting a very difficult conversation. Difficult enough for two people sharing the experience, let alone for two who have experienced it uniquely and are attempting communication from remote locations.

You're the only one having a problem communicating here.

The secret is to use kindergarten words. There is great power in simple things. It's human nature to over complicate it. If you can't explain it to a 5 year old then you don't understand it well enough to explain it. How's that for a measuring stick? This conversation really isn't a problem for Shin or myself. If you want to have a serious conversation on occult forums then stop watching Ancient Aliens. It's a lot of conjecture. A lot of sweeping generalizations. You sound just like the guy in the brown suit with the hair. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you can convince others through your sense of 'wow!' We've been there - done that. Grew past it.

Oh, and many of these experiences really aren't all that unique. There are many common denominators across these experiences. If you know what they are - you can accurately gauge the credibility of the person you're speaking to. You really have no idea how much of your ignorance you're showing.

I can't confidently say that Rose has had these experiences or that she knew what was going on when she had them. However, Shin, to me, it seems you are the more likely candidate. This is my credibility ranking and its based on the feelings I get from the words you choose to write. Rose has thrown up her defences for fear of what, I dunno.

'

I just keep coming back to this. LOL.

Shin - "we're not worthy" [pray] Or should I say "I'm not worthy of your greatness! Grace me with your presence!!" LMFAO

He has infinitely more patience than I do.

I'm trying to shift your focus for a moment to attempt a conversation from a broader perspective.

I'm trying to talk about the plant, not the differences between the roots and the leaves. While the roots desire something entirely different than the leaves. Both are heavily dependant upon rain and sunshine. You may point out that the rain serves the roots while the sunshine serves the leaves, however the roots cannot grow without the leaves ability to acquire sunlight and the leaves cannot grow without the roots ability to absorb moisture. They are dependant upon each other.
I was attempting a conversation from the perspective of rain and sunshine on the wellbeing of a plant at war with itself. There is no possible way we could come to a conclusion regarding the well being of the plant if you insist on the details. The details will work themselves out once we make a decision. If we decide the plant needs to start growing a bit to the left then there are intricacies that come into play. However, you obviously can't see which direction the plant should grow when your nose is buried in the dirt.

Yeah, we know.

The plant is the plant. A rose is a rose is a rose. It is made up of all the individual parts. Without knowing how all of those individual parts work to create a cohesive whole your overview is simplistic and inaccurate. It really is that simple.

which is really kind of funny because even though the roots are buried in the dirt - the plant still grow up. And there's this little thing called gravity so that even when you're buried up to your eyeballs - you still know which way is up. You're so busy trying to see the big picture that you're missing the point.

On top of that. You two don't seem the slightest bit interested in the overall well-being of the plant. Thats unfortunate because like I stated earlier, enlightened individuals in my experience are seeking union with what they are and not the opposite. You two don't seem the type. Its not apathy I feel. Apathy would be a good excuse, however even as everyone and everything will be "ok" from the perspective of the universe, that doesn't mean you should deny the will of the larger organism. One that came before you and will exist long after you're gone, whether or not you desire it. It felt more to me like the two of you despise the current perspective of the masses instead of understanding really how we got here and where we are going.

Seriously, I've about had it with your assumptions - especially while you're sticking your fingers in your ears.

By intimately knowing the nature and functions of the plant we are far better prepared for caring for it's overall well-being. You made the comment (a while ago) about not casting your pearls before swine. You don't drop Mysteries before those that aren't ready for them. You're mistaking one conversation for the whole of the individuals that you're speaking to.

The things that you're just figuring out and the conclusions that you're coming to - I did 20 years ago.

If you're Called to do the Great Work for the masses - then go for it. Just don't expect everyone else to jump on your bandwagon. Been there - done that - 2 decades ago.

Deny the will of the larger organism? Exactly which organism would that be? The Universe, the Gods, the Powers That Be, your own thoughts, nature itself, the whole of the human population? Which organism? Or are all of those examples a part of it as well?

And now you're jumping into personal areas that honestly and truly do not know enough to comment upon. But I do have to remind myself that you already know it all. You do love to spout off in ignorance and arrogance. Me - I'm just a bitch when my patience runs out.

I don't want to have the conversation you two seem insistent on having and you two don't seem willing to have the conversation I want.

Awwww - poor baby.

You don't actually get to direct where a public conversation goes. Feel free to drop out whenever you like. Mostly cuz - this really isn't all about you.

We've had the conversation you want. We've heard it before. We're just skipping the reruns here.

Ramscha - There is something before you which you cannot comprehend with your current experience (which you seemingly keep as a measure for everything and everybody else) that according to you seems to be the measure of all things.

And this is the problem in a nutshell.

This is also why most everyone else has stayed out of the conversation There aren't many who want to waste the time and frustration. Why do I continue to have these conversations? Because it's not all about you. It's for those that come after you. There is Truth to be found online (referencing another current thread) if you can find it. This is one of the things I do for my community. We all start at the beginning. I can't speak with every new person that steps foot on this path but these words will remain. If they only help one person - then I've accomplished something worthy of my efforts. That is one of the many things you fail to understand, magari.

I told you before - you should be asking for help. To understand these experiences that you've had. To find a measure of peace with what you've done and who you've become. You ain't the first and you won't be the last man who's returned from war and had these questions. Stop thinking you're so special and alone. All this going on and on about humanity and yet you're a pro at pushing it away from you. You don't even know what help you need right now- that's the saddest part of all of this. But - whatever, dude. When teachers and resources practically fall out of the sky and land at your feet - is it your normal SOP to run screaming the other way?


.

It may seem like I'm pluggin my ears, but thats because I keep hearing the same thing from you two.

"There are people out there who will disagree with you."

This is good advice, but only goes so far and the dissonance amongst the community causes the majority of this.
I know there are a lot of people who will disagree with me. Especially when they get mixed up with the details.

I've never found truth in the details and differences. The only truth in them I've found is that anything is possible.
Thats nice to know I suppose, but hasn't really served me beyond the fact that I now know what its like at each end of the spectrum.

I can't see the energies or the "flow" when I'm focused on details. When I broaden my view I see how its all related and I can affect change in ways I'd never realize if I was focused on those details.

Yet, at the same time we must be extremely aware of all the details in order to understand the intricacies of each experience. This I understand and might be what you two are referring to.

If you're not aware of the details and differences its almost impossible to see the subtle energies at work. Its the awareness of these details that allow us to spy the most subtle of energies coming our way. However, its affect won't be known unless we take a more broad perspective and see the which direction the train was headed in the first place.

Its as if we were two sides of duality just now, trying to find balance between the details and the bigger picture.
Obviously I'm more of a bigger picture kind of guy, but I know you guys aren't wrong. I always knew you guys were right. I was trying to get you to stand on my side of the coin for a moment. Thats all.

A good example would be my experience of the fates.

Without my ability to pay attention to the details I would have never realized their presence. The color and shapes of the leaves, the twist of the tree, the grass which lay on top of clay as if water was rushing over it recently, ect.

However I couldn't see the purpose and direction of that experience until I took a bird's eye view.


Does that make sense?

I may seem so incredibly stubborn because you haven't said anything I haven't yet heard and understand.

Sorry.

RoseRed wrote:Shin - "we're not worthy" [pray] Or should I say "I'm not worthy of your greatness! Grace me with your presence!!" LMFAO

I'm always happy to share the company of a beautiful lady. [wink2] You are always worthy of my presence, and I hope I can be so worthy of yours.

magari wrote:This is good advice, but only goes so far and the dissonance amongst the community causes the majority of this.

Real dissonance amongst the real Occult Community is relatively rare, especially compared to some other circles. And when it does happen, it is usually caused by a Neophyte who think they know best or a highly experienced old goat that loses his temper (and an angry wizard is not a fun wizard, hah!). There is no dissonance between Rose and I, because even if there are some differences in what we practice and who we are, we just accept that and move on to more important things. This is how it is amongst most of us who have been here a while.

And do you really think this is "The Community?" This is the coffee shop downtown where all the nosy youngsters get together to hang out and gossip.

Do you personally know offline any old men who get their most private messages not through email or text, but through little balls made out of the Air Element which carry telepathic messages that only the sender and intended receiver can fully understand? Do you personally know offline anybody that has held a full conversation with a spirit who chose to physically speak through a broken radio, that was unplugged, in a room full of people who all witnessed it with a mixture of "holy shit!" and "cooool?" Have you ever stepped foot in a real Temple Room, and been shown with a certain cautious pride the true value of some of its metaphysical structure? Have you ever stepped out of the shower to find a spirit standing in your bathroom mirror, impatiently waiting for a chance to talk to you about something it deems much more important than your modesty? Have you ever sat across a physical table from someone talking about magic, heard them say "oh, that? You just do this. . ." and then had your mind blown by seeing something that every law of common sense says should be physically impossible?

You're not yet part of the community, so you have not yet earned the right to judge or comment about any part of it. You've found the door, or you wouldn't be here, but you haven't even gotten your foot inside. Even after it opened up for you. Rose gave you a reference, you know. A reference. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get references like that here? Especially here, on the internet. This isn't a Walmart application. References mean something to people like us, because true friendships built among occultists tend to last more than just one lifetime. We are both more cautious of who we befriend and more passionate about our friendships than any ordinary person will ever understand.

magari wrote:When I broaden my view I see how its all related and I can affect change in ways I'd never realize if I was focused on those details.

magari wrote:However I couldn't see the purpose and direction of that experience until I took a bird's eye view.

So Brother Hawk has shared with you his Vision. That is a beautiful and wonderful thing, an initiation in and of itself, and I am happy for you.

Now get your ass back on the ground and go talk to Brother Snake, or Sister Ant, or even Old Man Cedar. Or all of them and everyone else.

You are stuck on Brother Hawk. You have flown above the land and seen The Great View, but you are so impressed by what you see below that you forget Father Sky is still above you, looking down on you with Sun and Moon and all The Stars, patiently waiting for you to look up and climb higher -- higher than Brother Hawk alone can carry you. You can continue to Soar as long as you want, but eventually you're going to have to Ground, Center, and move on to the next lesson.

magari wrote:I was trying to get you to stand on my side of the coin for a moment. Thats all.

But you don't understand, Magari. Rose and I don't have to choose which side of the coin we stand on. To paraphrase Morpheus, there is no coin.

We've seen both sides of the coin the whole time. We just don't think the coin is that important.



~:Shin:~

Thats something I can work with.

As of right now the insects are speaking to me.

I traded with them some tools for a little assistance, but they are persistent on communicating something else.

Time, immortality, air, the fates.
This is the closest I can come to describing my next lesson.

As for the reference. You'll have to forgive me as I have little reason to trust anyone online. You might understand why I can't trust pity. If this reference was truly interested or thought I had something of value to offer them they would contact me themselves.

and honestly I'm tired of being mothered.

I have wandered and wandered and wandered. Now I hold court. I will continue to hold court until my community is self-sustainable and I there are members I can trust to continue the work.

Perhaps I made the mistake of assuming you two were standing on one side of the coin.

Perhaps you two made the same mistake.

magari wrote:and honestly I'm tired of being mothered.

Beware what you wish for, young man. You do not know what you have until it is gone, and once that happens you may never get it back.

magari wrote:Perhaps I made the mistake of assuming you two were standing on one side of the coin.

Perhaps you two made the same mistake.

There is no coin.



~:Shin:~

Yes, yes, there is no coin.

However we are still walking, talking meat bags.

Good conversation though.
I am grateful.

Rose has a point about not jumping into that discussion.

I havnt read it in full, so ill just leave it in saying that I myself am personally am quite happy to lead sorting out the worlds problems to the Gods, I think it's best to improve the areas more immediate to you. Thats the way of creating a real impact - thats more attainable and has a ripple effect.

It also doesnt help that personally, i believe that some people are just too ignorant to ever contribute positively - but that might just be my latent misanthropy coming through, which has not been really helped by the contact with the genius loci of the places i live, which are usually bad tasting, human created ones OR pre existing ones that take a dim view on how as a species we go on. Thats not something I can really affect or change, just accept, alongside realising that all i can do is attempt to be less complicit in damaging human centric behaviour and do my best through practical and spiritual means to in some way make amends. People might see that as defeatist - but honestly i feel its just the reality we now feel that we live in.

My work is therefore the taste of dirt, and the copper taste of my own blood, rather than stellar work or anything else i suspect. That colours my perspective so sometimes its best if i just admit that.

As for Mr E.A.Koetting, I am more than glad he has been arrested, if he is indeed a fraud. Thankfully his work has never appealed to me. The western magickal tradition is seeing a new wave of life, that embraces the more back to basics version of spirit contact and traditional witchcraft from what i've observed.

The more frauds that can be removed from our communities to make way for genuine practices the better. I feel that as a whole the Occult sphere has been far too accepting of bad, hack authors and fiction writers, and hasn't been as critical as it should have been sometimes. A prime example would be someone like Konstantinos, who writes stuff like 'Gothic Grimoire' and markets it with skulls, vampire imagery and 'kool' stuff on the cover to sucker in the teen audience whilst peddling what basically amounts to an ineffective lie.

And thats why I didn't reply The vitriol is in effect today. Rant over!

I feel that as a whole the Occult sphere has been far too accepting of bad, hack authors and fiction writers, and hasn't been as critical as it should have been sometimes. A prime example would be someone like Konstantinos, who writes stuff like 'Gothic Grimoire' and markets it with skulls, vampire imagery and 'kool' stuff on the cover to sucker in the teen audience whilst peddling what basically amounts to an ineffective lie.

I agree entirely, this has a huge impact on people first encountering the occult, they either get suckered in by these lies and waste their time on fake/ineffective practices or they see all the scams and nonsense for what they are and it just confirms their suspicion that the occult is nothing but nonsense.

I'm not sure what can be done about it though... any thoughts guys?

If this reference was truly interested or thought I had something of value to offer them they would contact me themselves.

He never thought that you had anything of value to offer him.

The community, the community - that should be your call sign. And yet again you show how little you actually know about how it works and functions.

You expect this person I recommended to you to contact you? Seriously?!? I honestly don't know if that's ignorance or arrogance. I really don't.

and honestly I'm tired of being mothered

Then don't whine when I'm not nice to you like you did before - but sure, no problem.

Perhaps you two made the same mistake

And what mistake would that be?

Or will this yet be another question that will be completely ignored. That's another part of this conversation that has been severely lacking.