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For some the occult is only about spirituality or the practice of magic itself. For others it is both.

Napoli wrote:For some the occult is only about spirituality or the practice of magic itself. For others it is both.

Thank you Napoli...I agree wholeheartedly... [wink]

landing wrote:I look the universe in a shamanic way,
not the same way as Shawn blackwolf viewing the universe.

I never said it could not be spiritual...I was countering what InMalkuth
said when he said it this way :

"And witchcraft and paganism is simply a name for people that practice unconventional methods to attain to spiritual knowledge."


And *that* is not true... [thumbup]

See Napoli's comment , next...

I have no problem , there...it is a fair and truthful statement and position... [wink]

If In Malkuth were on Paganspace and said that , they would verbally rip him a new posterior hole...

I have been in conversations like this for years on pagan sites with people who do not know our
traditions or practice them from the inside , trying to pigeonhole everyone into one way of seeing it...

Shawn Blackwolf wrote:

landing wrote:I look the universe in a shamanic way,
not the same way as Shawn blackwolf viewing the universe.

I never said it could not be spiritual...I was countering what InMalkuth
said when he said it this way :

"And witchcraft and paganism is simply a name for people that practice unconventional methods to attain to spiritual knowledge."


And *that* is not true... [thumbup]

See Napoli's comment , next...

I have no problem , there...it is a fair and truthful statement and position... [wink]

If In Malkuth were on Paganspace and said that , they would verbally rip him a new posterior hole...

I have been in conversations like this for years on pagan sites with people who do not know our
traditions or practice them from the inside , trying to pigeonhole everyone into one way of seeing it...

would u define what is spiritual,what is not, what is conventionanal what is unconventional?
thanks.

shawn,and what type of magick r u practising? thanks

landing wrote:shawn,and what type of magick r u practising? thanks

He has already stated his Tradition.

http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... 14&t=40562

Hello , Landing...

Fair questions , but first let me state again ( I already did in the thread ) :

I did not care about conventional...I got dragged into that conversation...

But , if I were to *really* answer that...sex magic(k) , including BDSM ,

( and I say that with respect regarding what you posted , but you asked ) ,

Blood magic , invoking and working with beings associated with the Underworlds ,

or Otherworlds , Cursing and Hexing , ( including a death curse if need be ) ,

just for starters...

What is spiritual ?

Normally the definition of spiritual , is associated with upward movement of human

consciousness , a positive outlook on life and the universe , worship of a deity , or

nature as a nurturing energy ( Gaia principle ) , focus on transcending the body and

the physical world and dimension , an avoidance of what is considered dark and deadly ,

and at the extreme , fluffbunnyism...

One must put my concepts in context that I was in my twenties in the 1980's , and went

through the whole New Age mentality , and had to deal with many thousands of "spiritual"

new agers , as I was in the middle of it , being the "Amber Essence" man , or the top distributor

of that resin perfume in the U.S. , as well as other natural oils , and represented 160 of the top

spiritual visionary artists in the U.S. , and abroad , and put on 5,000 sq. foot art shows for the

main fairs and expositions , as well as sold cards , prints , t shirts , art magnets , limited editions ,

original paintings , sculptures , etc...and supplied art for book covers , tapes , record albums ,

and many many things...I also knew the top writers , and new age musicians of the time , and

was often given hundreds of books , magazines , tapes , images , tickets to new age "spiritual"

performances , talks by gurus , native elders , shamanic teachers , and then later , pagan fairs

and festivals...I think you get the idea...

I have seen a huge amount , heard it , participated in it , dark and light , and been around the wheel

more than once... [wink]

My Tradition ?

Faery Tradition , Light and Dark , The Old Wietchcrreayafth ( Witchcraft ) , Theaantherrea , ( Old Tantra ) ,

with Shamanic practices , Internal Alchemy , Re - Metaprogramming the Human Bio - Computer , Gematria

and Code , working with Earth Energies , Sigil Magic , including Runes , Working with bones , skulls , antlers ,

horns , as a carver in the ancient tradition , creator of medicine pieces and ritual art...for a beginning...

Did I cover your questions ?

... [wink] ...

And just so you can see , I am not a Jesus by any means...

Here is me , dark and light...and no fear...

http://api.ning.com/files/UNsexXQ7LVloa ... arb001.jpg

And a skull I carved ( my first )

http://everythingunderthemoon.net/forum ... arved/3639

Shawn Blackwolf wrote:
If In Malkuth were on Paganspace and said that , they would verbally rip him a new posterior hole...

I wonder if I would get the same treatment there.

inMalkuth wrote:

Shawn Blackwolf wrote:"And witchcraft and paganism is simply a name for people that practice unconventional methods to attain to spiritual knowledge."

Absolutely incorrect...but you are so good at making statements like this... [thumbup]

Unconventional definition:

not based on or conforming to what is generally done or believed: "his unconventional approach to life"

Are you suggesting that all people practice witchcraft and magick?

Okay... I know I said I was done but curiosity about my last post on another forum led me to check this one, and I see that this is still going on so let me restate what happened here:

I said that witchcraft and paganism was basically people that practice unconventional methods to attain to spiritual knowledge, to which Shawn decides to take issue with. He says I am not correct and that if he werent such a nice guy that hed be a dick about how he responds to me. In the past he has used his experience and age to justify that we should all listen to him and not have our own beliefs. So lets examine what he says, and what his issue with me is:

First he doesnt like the use of the word unconventional. Here is the dictionary definition of that word:

not based on or conforming to what is generally done or believed

In his world it is not unconventional, but when I walk outside my house, or turn on the television, or look at most used book shelves what I see is the church, and the bible. I could probably survey 100 people and Im pretty certain that half of them would believe in some sort of God, and the other half would say they believe in Jesus. This is just in my neck of the woods. A 50% rate of belief would lead me to think that the conventional, organized way to perceive spiritual knowledge is Judaism or Christianity. You can even check statistical sources and read that the percentage of people that practice what we study is a very low percentage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... opulations

Because of this observation I am pretty certain that I am not off base when I say that the general accepted form of spirituality is not paganism or witchcraft.

Now we must analyze the other portion of his objection which is that its not a form of spiritual knowledge. Aside from the commonly conceived belief that paganism and witchcraft is a form of spirituality, backed up by wikipedia because it is on that list of religions i linked, we must examine the definition of spirituality and knowledge.

here is that definition:






Definition of spirituality
plural spiritualities

1
: something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a cleric as such

2
: clergy

3
: sensitivity or attachment to religious values

4
: the quality or state of being spiritual

the definition of spiritual is this:





Definition of spiritual

1
: of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : incorporeal spiritual needs

2
a : of or relating to sacred matters spiritual songsb : ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal spiritual authority lords spiritual

3
: concerned with religious values

4
: related or joined in spirit our spiritual home his spiritual heir

5
a : of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomenab : of, relating to, or involving spiritualism : spiritualistic

I think this fairly well establishes that paganism and witchcraft falls into this category. Now, knowledge:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/knowledge

1.
acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation; general erudition:
knowledge of many things.
2.
familiarity or conversance, as with a particular subject or branch of learning:
A knowledge of accounting was necessary for the job.
3.
acquaintance or familiarity gained by sight, experience, or report:
a knowledge of human nature.
4.
the fact or state of knowing; the perception of fact or truth; clear and certain mental apprehension.
5.
awareness, as of a fact or circumstance:
He had knowledge of her good fortune.
6.
something that is or may be known; information:
He sought knowledge of her activities.
7.
the body of truths or facts accumulated in the course of time.
adjective
10.
creating, involving, using, or disseminating special knowledge or information:
A computer expert can always find a good job in the knowledge industry.
Idioms
11.
to one's knowledge, according to the information available to one:
To my knowledge he hasn't been here before.

It seems to me that if you can read, you can identify that my statement that paganism and witchcraft is indeed, spiritual knowledge, and that it is also unconventional which he actually agrees with later in his post, yet instead of just admitting that he was wrong in accusing me of being absurd, continues to say that I am, and that if he werent so wise and kind he would be insulting.

Then other people who also seem to contest that I have any valid opinions come here and throw stones at me too, just because their feathers were ruffled under the same circumstances. Now, I am simply making statements and observations that I believe, and which under scrutiny, are not flawed arguments, and I am not condemning people that do not agree, and I am very gracious about hearing their view but all I seem to get is nay saying and rocks thrown. A lot of people here simply come here to disagree, but they dont typically express their definition of what we are discussing; its just to throw rocks. This, along with Shawns way of asserting that he is right just because he has some experience or is older, is immature in my view, and I dont regret saying so.

My point is and has always been that we gather around to have an open discussion about things that are not commonly accepted or defined in order that we can share our concepts and definitions to better understand what we each believe. That is how a community of truth seekers aught to behave, and that doesnt happen here. Because people have decided to throw rocks at me because I speak from a place of truth that they dont see or agree with, I have to get defensive and stand my ground, or run. They think I am throwing stones by disagreeing, and then they throw stones for no reason. Essentially what is happening is that some of these characters are simply insecure in their own knowledge and need to attack someone who isnt. I am more than willing to admit when I agree that I dont know something, and I am more than willing to listen to other peoples opinions. What I am not doing, is throwing rocks at people for speaking their mind. After I posted that I thought his methods were immature I then posted an apology saying that I think this is all petty and chowder, who takes issue with me for whatever reason and resentment blows past it and uses my previous comment against me, which I still stand by. Because Shawn was unable to admit he actually agrees with me I called his methods immature. That may have been harsh, but he is the one who is calling me absurd and arrogant when in fact, he actually agrees with what I am saying. He even confesses this in response to Naploi that he sees Magick as a form of acquiring spiritual knowledge.

End result? People are just being prejudiced against me without thinking, and Im calling them on it and they dont like it so they throw more stones.

InMalkuth.I do not agree that people here hold any prejudice against you but rather are irritated by statements such as 'People are just being prejudiced against me without thinking, and Im calling them on it and they dont like it so they throw more stones.' Your statement above that you speak from a 'place of truth' suggests the rest of us do not.

Nope...and you have a fixation on me , and proving you are right , and putting words in my mouth I did not say...

Frankly , now I just consider you a posterior hole...so now you can say I was not nice...( but really I *am* still being nice )

Here is how I shall leave it with you...

This :

"And witchcraft and paganism is simply a name for people that practice unconventional methods to attain to spiritual knowledge."

Does not equal this :

"For some the occult is only about spirituality or the practice of magic itself. For others it is both."

And the second was Napoli's statement I agreed with... [wink]

My mention of my age , is to give people perspective of where I am coming from , not to lord over...

Dictionary definitions are often written by those not actively involved in practices...

You misquote not just me , but others , have made blanket statements regarding subjects , and continue
have a need to make others wrong...I do believe you are a good person , with good intent , underneath
all that , but there is a reason you keep getting shit...not just from me...you yourself admit , others have
taken a stance "against" you...

Why don't you sit back for awhile , and think about why , rather than trying to prove yourself right ?

Your continued attempts to do so , do seem to me , to be absurd...and I wish you well , in your growth...

But if you continue to act like a posterior hole , and then cry victim...well , we all know what that will bring you... [thumbup]

Shall we move on ?

Im not trying to make blanket statements, and im not trying to make enemies. I have better things to do than deal with this shit.

violetstar wrote:

Shawn Blackwolf wrote:
If In Malkuth were on Paganspace and said that , they would verbally rip him a new posterior hole...

I wonder if I would get the same treatment there.

LOL !

Paganspace used to be far worse , when it was at it's height of traffic years ago...

You would post something , someone would respond who did not agree , and by the
time you finished responding to that , there were ten or twenty more responses on
your case...

I honed my skills there , over time... [thumbup]

It all depends how you come into the site , how you post , whether you try to tell
others how it is for all of them , because of your belief system...

Right now , we are dealing with someone from India , who is trying to shove his
ideas of karma down the throat of everyone else...and many do not believe in it ,
some are even atheist , and many resent it highly...

He is getting his share of shit , and teasing , and a verbal whupping or two... [moresarcasm]

inMalkuth wrote:Im not trying to make blanket statements, and im not trying to make enemies. I have better things to do than deal with this shit.

So do we...so we agree on that...are you going to drop it now , and move on , whether you stay , or not ?

Shawn Blackwolf wrote:

But , if I were to *really* answer that...sex magic(k) , including BDSM ,

( and I say that with respect regarding what you posted , but you asked ) ,

Blood magic ,
... [wink] ...

wow.... Seriously?
i did sense some energy from your side, but still hard to believe it is real, ....i thought u just trying to be a fun style online.....

landing wrote:

Shawn Blackwolf wrote:

But , if I were to *really* answer that...sex magic(k) , including BDSM ,

( and I say that with respect regarding what you posted , but you asked ) ,

Blood magic ,
... [wink] ...

wow.... Seriously?
i did sense some energy from your side, but still hard to believe it is real, ....i thought u just trying to be a fun style online.....

he's exaggerating [rolleyes]

landing wrote:

Shawn Blackwolf wrote:

But , if I were to *really* answer that...sex magic(k) , including BDSM ,

( and I say that with respect regarding what you posted , but you asked ) ,

Blood magic ,
... [wink] ...

wow.... Seriously?
i did sense some energy from your side, but still hard to believe it is real, ....i thought u just trying to be a fun style online.....

No , I am not exaggerating , landing , nor pulling your leg...seriously... [wink]

There are many who practice magic like I listed...

As far as the other things I have done in my life , or my Tradition...no exaggeration...just life as I have chosen it... [thumbup]

Some of us lead different lives...

( just to be clear , I can bless as well as curse , and do , etc...as is necessary )

My bad, I thought question was about "what are you practicing these days", not about the things we were experimenting in our teen years. And I'm having hard time imagining you practicing BDSM at your age..

62 is young , my friend...

I had a 29 year old red head scorpio girlfriend , when I was 50...

Still have younger women interested...I shall leave it at that... [wink]

Now , shall we stop just talking about me ?

Shawn Blackwolf wrote:62 is young , my friend...
I had a 29 year old red head scorpio girlfriend , when I was 50...
Still have younger women interested...I shall leave it at that... [wink]

I'll restrain my self from commenting on that.. [shh]

Shawn Blackwolf wrote: Now , shall we stop just talking about me ?

From my experience, things people want to share is only half the coin, the other half is all the things they don't want to share, don't feel comfortable sharing, intimate and personal and even embracing, "not important, irrelevant and off topic". I'm a pervert of that kind. [blush]

BDSM has no place in spirituality and belongs on porn sites rather than an Occult forum.

https://gardnerians.wordpress.com/2014/ ... gellation/

There is as well , trance induction used in magical practice through pain ,

piercing , bondage , and other methods found in that type of occult practice...

To deny it exists in the occult community , or that it is a valid practice , for

*some* in that community , is a falsehood...

It is like the modern day witches who want to deny some of us used , or use

orgiastic practices to raise energy , for spellworking and ritual...

Do all do this ?

Of course not , it is not for all traditions...but for some just as valid , yes... [thumbup]

inMalkuth wrote: Okay... I know I said I was done but curiosity about my last post on another forum led me to check this one, and I see that this is still going on so let me restate what happened here:

Oh, welcome back again. [yay]

@Shawn
That link is to a neo-pagan Wiccan blog full of misinformation.Whoever penned it is ignorant of research by Ronald Hutton and Ethan Doyle-White who are the accepted authorities on the origins and development of Wicca.

May I direct you to my recent posts on how to evaluate sources.

Please give examples of bondage being used to enhance spirituality.

I did not deny or confirm some of these methods exist(ed)in Occult communities.My argument is that BDSM does not have a place in spiritual development.It is itself a term used in the pornographic industry and any attempt to shoehorn it into spirituality carries the immediate danger of coercing the less informed seeker into a world of sleaze.