Original post: Lord Ruthven
In another thread (the "reasons I'm a Satanist" thread) a discussion got started about karma and rewards and altruism.
Now, here are my thoughts on this, they are mildly Satanic imo but not too extreme:
I believe that when you do something nice, the world becomes a nicer place. That sounds quite prissy but think of it like this. When you are out driving, if you let someone out onto the main road from a side road then they are generally more inclined to do the same and less pissed off so they won't drive angry.
If you speed on by then they are more inclined to do the same and next time you are on a side road you might suffer the same treatment.
Now, don't get me wrong here, just because you let someone out one day does not mean you'll get out the next, but it probably does increase the general chances and is therefore good for everyone. So, no, there is no karma, but if you do "good" deeds in the world then you might just help to make it a better place for everyone and everyone includes you - enlightened self interest!
That's where the Satanic bit comes in, by the way, self interest.
Other opinions please! (Well, this is a discussion board after all.)
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Original post: Spes
Firstly ain't this a bit fatalistic?
If I'd live my whole life in the same place with the same people it would be probably wise to act like this because in that case "what comes around goes around" really works. We have saying here - "as dog to village so does village to dog".
But chances get really small if you're for exsample travelling around alot. Would you help rather someone you know or act good to stranger you'll most probably never meet again?
Theoretically it's still very subjective and useful would be to act just satanic (act when it's good for you for sure). Karma is karma - do something and hope for the best. Being satanic is using your time and energy for certain results and gains.
Am I way off the reality here?
Firstly ain't this a bit fatalistic?
If I'd live my whole life in the same place with the same people it would be probably wise to act like this because in that case "what comes around goes around" really works. We have saying here - "as dog to village so does village to dog".
But chances get really small if you're for exsample travelling around alot. Would you help rather someone you know or act good to stranger you'll most probably never meet again?
Theoretically it's still very subjective and useful would be to act just satanic (act when it's good for you for sure). Karma is karma - do something and hope for the best. Being satanic is using your time and energy for certain results and gains.
Am I way off the reality here?
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Original post: Lord Ruthven
No, you are quite right that the individual advantage is small and inherently unnoticeable and unquantifiable. However, it does mean that when a given choice makes no difference to you personally but that one does harm to others and one helps them you should always choose to help them.
No, you are quite right that the individual advantage is small and inherently unnoticeable and unquantifiable. However, it does mean that when a given choice makes no difference to you personally but that one does harm to others and one helps them you should always choose to help them.
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Original post: Spes
If it just takes a second then yes, I agree it's wiser not to be arse and act good.
If it just takes a second then yes, I agree it's wiser not to be arse and act good.
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Original post: Interstellis
Well I see it as thus: Every action has an effect on the universe, great or small. The perception of that effect may be good for one but bad for another...who has time to tally it up? I just assume responsibility for my own actions and their effects, rather than using karmic law as my scapegoat. Everything you do is a choice.
This is what cracks me up about white-light philosophy and three-fold laws and such. It really doesn't matter the intent, there will be an effect that will be percieved good for someone and not-so-good for another. Adding a tag-line of "an it harm none" just seems to be saying, well if it turns out bad for someone, it's out of my hands! Rubbish!
Just to play devil's advocate here on LR's example: Common courtesy to let someone in from a side road might be a nice thing for him and may feel good for you, but what if there's a car behind you that is trying to get to an emergency? Now, that same intent to do good has just turned out bad for the guy behind you.
Well I see it as thus: Every action has an effect on the universe, great or small. The perception of that effect may be good for one but bad for another...who has time to tally it up? I just assume responsibility for my own actions and their effects, rather than using karmic law as my scapegoat. Everything you do is a choice.
This is what cracks me up about white-light philosophy and three-fold laws and such. It really doesn't matter the intent, there will be an effect that will be percieved good for someone and not-so-good for another. Adding a tag-line of "an it harm none" just seems to be saying, well if it turns out bad for someone, it's out of my hands! Rubbish!
Just to play devil's advocate here on LR's example: Common courtesy to let someone in from a side road might be a nice thing for him and may feel good for you, but what if there's a car behind you that is trying to get to an emergency? Now, that same intent to do good has just turned out bad for the guy behind you.
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Original post: Venus666
good point Interstellis
I like to do what is good for me in the moment. I do not believe in Karma, and I know of no satanic philosiphy that promotes the system of karma. Although to live as a satanist it would be up to you to decide other people's fate and other things, so you in effect would be the bringer of karma on them. (or be seen as a scapegoat)
good point Interstellis
I like to do what is good for me in the moment. I do not believe in Karma, and I know of no satanic philosiphy that promotes the system of karma. Although to live as a satanist it would be up to you to decide other people's fate and other things, so you in effect would be the bringer of karma on them. (or be seen as a scapegoat)
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Original post: Interstellis
Exactly. That's why we have to be willing to accept responsibility for the fact that our actions, while they may be chalked full of good intent, just may be putting someone else at a disadvantage. If you can live with that, then have at it. If not, it's advisable to not leave the house.
This, of course, applies both to magical and mundane endeavors.
Exactly. That's why we have to be willing to accept responsibility for the fact that our actions, while they may be chalked full of good intent, just may be putting someone else at a disadvantage. If you can live with that, then have at it. If not, it's advisable to not leave the house.
This, of course, applies both to magical and mundane endeavors.
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Original post: Spes
We have been talking here about good act. How about another factor - to whom we are making this favor? What if driver of this car is a serial-killer going for next victim and this victim could have get away with those couple seconds? How would you feel if you'd find this out?
So question is should we really do favors on random to people we don't know? What if I keep door open in store for a maniac who is going to buy matches to burn down my house? He doesn't know me, I don't know him. At given moment I have done good by keeping door at grocery open and he is grateful for this but then later he'll burn down my hut and I will stalk him for revenge ...
Shouldn't we take things in bigger plan that just now and here?
Your thoughts?
We have been talking here about good act. How about another factor - to whom we are making this favor? What if driver of this car is a serial-killer going for next victim and this victim could have get away with those couple seconds? How would you feel if you'd find this out?
So question is should we really do favors on random to people we don't know? What if I keep door open in store for a maniac who is going to buy matches to burn down my house? He doesn't know me, I don't know him. At given moment I have done good by keeping door at grocery open and he is grateful for this but then later he'll burn down my hut and I will stalk him for revenge ...
Shouldn't we take things in bigger plan that just now and here?
Your thoughts?
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Original post: Lord Ruthven
Interstellis,
You do make a very good point. Indeed, it is impossible to know for certain whether an act will do someone good or ill in the long run - but you can make a pretty good guess. For example, if a guy is being mugged and you are with ten friends, stepping in to save him is probably a 'good' thing. Not for the mugger, no, but the mugger is already doing something 'bad' anyway.
Of course, it could all go horribly wrong. The person you rescue might have become some kind of crime-fighting super-policeman in revenge if the mugging had gone ahead and the mugger might end up learning how to commit worse crimes effectively while in prison.
On balance, though, the good result is likely. Therefore, on balance, you should step in.
Interstellis,
You do make a very good point. Indeed, it is impossible to know for certain whether an act will do someone good or ill in the long run - but you can make a pretty good guess. For example, if a guy is being mugged and you are with ten friends, stepping in to save him is probably a 'good' thing. Not for the mugger, no, but the mugger is already doing something 'bad' anyway.
Of course, it could all go horribly wrong. The person you rescue might have become some kind of crime-fighting super-policeman in revenge if the mugging had gone ahead and the mugger might end up learning how to commit worse crimes effectively while in prison.
On balance, though, the good result is likely. Therefore, on balance, you should step in.
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Original post: SAINT
[QUOTE=Interstellis]Every action has an effect on the universe, great or small. The perception of that effect may be good for one but bad for another...who has time to tally it up? [/QUOTE]
True. 30 odd years ago, a local council tree planter chose a spot that he decided was perfect for the sapling he had in his care, along the freeways edge, and along with many others, planted a roadside full of trees... nearly 2 weeks ago, my friend fell asleep at the wheel of his vehicle after a long and testing week and hit that tree, ending this life for him.
30 years ago, this guy did what you would see as a good thing, and my friend wouldve driven by that tree for years, oblivious to its destiny entwined with his.
all good deeds present a danger, the deed done today could destroy tomorrow.
[QUOTE=Interstellis]Every action has an effect on the universe, great or small. The perception of that effect may be good for one but bad for another...who has time to tally it up? [/QUOTE]
True. 30 odd years ago, a local council tree planter chose a spot that he decided was perfect for the sapling he had in his care, along the freeways edge, and along with many others, planted a roadside full of trees... nearly 2 weeks ago, my friend fell asleep at the wheel of his vehicle after a long and testing week and hit that tree, ending this life for him.
30 years ago, this guy did what you would see as a good thing, and my friend wouldve driven by that tree for years, oblivious to its destiny entwined with his.
all good deeds present a danger, the deed done today could destroy tomorrow.
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Original post: m1thr0s
SAINT - That's one really weird tale! I'd say it was an irony but it's way beyond irony...that's just flat out creepy...I suppose if we start looking around though we'd find many similar kinds of stories...
m1thr0s
SAINT - That's one really weird tale! I'd say it was an irony but it's way beyond irony...that's just flat out creepy...I suppose if we start looking around though we'd find many similar kinds of stories...
m1thr0s
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Original post: Spes
After war in Russian prisoncamp one of Estonian soldiers got piece of thin metal real sharp on whetstone since he planed to escape. Smart idea ain't it?
At very same evening his good comrade who saw no way to escape cut his veins with this same improvised knife.
The soldier who sharpened knife asked out loud:"Why the hell did I sharpen this knife so much?"
If you look around there are plenty of such stories and even so much that there seems to be some universal rule.
After war in Russian prisoncamp one of Estonian soldiers got piece of thin metal real sharp on whetstone since he planed to escape. Smart idea ain't it?
At very same evening his good comrade who saw no way to escape cut his veins with this same improvised knife.
The soldier who sharpened knife asked out loud:"Why the hell did I sharpen this knife so much?"
If you look around there are plenty of such stories and even so much that there seems to be some universal rule.
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Original post: Interstellis
There are countless stories like these. The idea among those of the LHP is to accept responsibility for one's actions, mundane and magical. To practice magic of any sort believing that your magic will "harm none" is delusional, IMO. As we have seen here by several examples, even mundane actions can potentially harm someone or something in some way. Cosmic ripples will have their effects, period. It may not be the person's intent to cause harm, but I won't kid myself into thinking that it absolutely won't, and I certainly will not lay the blame on karma or fate or the will of some other god when it was clearly my choice to send forth the ripples.
Many self-proclaimed white magicians who cannot deal with that responsibility seem to prefer such delusions.
There are countless stories like these. The idea among those of the LHP is to accept responsibility for one's actions, mundane and magical. To practice magic of any sort believing that your magic will "harm none" is delusional, IMO. As we have seen here by several examples, even mundane actions can potentially harm someone or something in some way. Cosmic ripples will have their effects, period. It may not be the person's intent to cause harm, but I won't kid myself into thinking that it absolutely won't, and I certainly will not lay the blame on karma or fate or the will of some other god when it was clearly my choice to send forth the ripples.
Many self-proclaimed white magicians who cannot deal with that responsibility seem to prefer such delusions.
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Original post: Venus666
true, Interstellis
and this is why i have a problem with white lighters in general. They have fooled themselves into thinking that they can make it the opoposite of reality, of how things nturally occur
I say realize this factor (the ripple effect) and use it to your advantage, instead of trying to fight it like the white-lighters do this is what it all basically comes down to anyway
true, Interstellis
and this is why i have a problem with white lighters in general. They have fooled themselves into thinking that they can make it the opoposite of reality, of how things nturally occur
I say realize this factor (the ripple effect) and use it to your advantage, instead of trying to fight it like the white-lighters do this is what it all basically comes down to anyway
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Original post: AJAtheMetastasis
Why become imprisoned by the concept of Karma? Life is full of unexpected events....... Some good, and some bad. It's part of the process we call living. You could be the most up-right person in the world, and still get sh*t on. Are we to blame Karma? I think not. Mayhaps Karma is nothing more than another medium man/woman uses to transfer one's own short-comings and failures? That is; blame it on Karma, god, the Devil, or what have you instead of taking responsibility for oneself? I believe Karma is nothing more than a Sop band-aid for the weak of Spirit; (that's just my opinion). We must stand by (ALL) our successes and failures. And place the praise or blame where it belongs........ Ourselves. "I personally spit on the concept of Karma." Success is something we strive for; so is failure, when honestly looked at with fully open eyes. *The unconscious works in very mysterious ways!* It all boils down to one's personal mind-set. I feel most Satanist are feared due to their ability of vanquishing concepts such as Karma, good, evil, and other countless paradigms ascribed to forces outside our personal control. As the old saying goes: Those who dare - Win. "Dare to destory the very concepts which would imprison the Free-Spirit." Darkest Blessings.
Why become imprisoned by the concept of Karma? Life is full of unexpected events....... Some good, and some bad. It's part of the process we call living. You could be the most up-right person in the world, and still get sh*t on. Are we to blame Karma? I think not. Mayhaps Karma is nothing more than another medium man/woman uses to transfer one's own short-comings and failures? That is; blame it on Karma, god, the Devil, or what have you instead of taking responsibility for oneself? I believe Karma is nothing more than a Sop band-aid for the weak of Spirit; (that's just my opinion). We must stand by (ALL) our successes and failures. And place the praise or blame where it belongs........ Ourselves. "I personally spit on the concept of Karma." Success is something we strive for; so is failure, when honestly looked at with fully open eyes. *The unconscious works in very mysterious ways!* It all boils down to one's personal mind-set. I feel most Satanist are feared due to their ability of vanquishing concepts such as Karma, good, evil, and other countless paradigms ascribed to forces outside our personal control. As the old saying goes: Those who dare - Win. "Dare to destory the very concepts which would imprison the Free-Spirit." Darkest Blessings.
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Original post: m1thr0s
m1thr0s
I'm with you AJA - I can't work up much steam about it either...it has been said that the path of the warrior is one that accepts responsibility for ALL injustice without assigning anything outwardly. Good people get screwed every day while deliberate assholes ride high and free. Whatever these so-called laws of karma may be...they aren't particularly impressive so far as I'm concerned. We are better off I think to acknowledge life's inequalities and injustices and look to more universal solutions inwardly without very much belaboring the details. Life's a bitch...so what else is new? There doesn't have to be any rhyme or reason to it and there probably isn't any anyway. When you're up to your eyeballs in sh*t, you're better off to focus on getting out of that sh*t and not get too hung up on the inner workings of the sh*t itself. With a bit of luck and some hard work, it will all be a moot issue soon enough anyhow..."I personally spit on the concept of Karma."
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Original post: AJAtheMetastasis
As always m1thr0s............. Wisely said my friend!
As always m1thr0s............. Wisely said my friend!
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Original post: KissTheDevil
Cross the bridge when you arrive at it, don't take the time to consider all of what may indirectly be caused by your actions many years down the road. Do what you will in the moment and --> IF <-- there is any fallout later, deal with it then.
Cross the bridge when you arrive at it, don't take the time to consider all of what may indirectly be caused by your actions many years down the road. Do what you will in the moment and --> IF <-- there is any fallout later, deal with it then.
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Original post: superbeast_7
I'd like to mention something on the "what goes around comes around" scenarios, it seems to me that over time things decay this includes emotions of compasion who's to say that if you help someone cut in front of you that someone will let you later, especially when dealing with a big time period the feeling or the "ripple" might of halted and died off. My cousin taught me a very important lesson about karma, and that is if it's to work at all then it should be soon not in the next lifetime although when this occurs it's not really karma but payment or atleast ego stroking gratitude(if that was your primary reason.).
The only satanic karma I would encourage to beleive in is when you do something to fix your environment such cleaning up the neighborhood charities(get all the grabage you hate to look at off the streets plus look good to your imediate community) or saving some endangerd animals type thing(you never know how an animal can keep the fragile ecosystem in balance).
I'd like to mention something on the "what goes around comes around" scenarios, it seems to me that over time things decay this includes emotions of compasion who's to say that if you help someone cut in front of you that someone will let you later, especially when dealing with a big time period the feeling or the "ripple" might of halted and died off. My cousin taught me a very important lesson about karma, and that is if it's to work at all then it should be soon not in the next lifetime although when this occurs it's not really karma but payment or atleast ego stroking gratitude(if that was your primary reason.).
The only satanic karma I would encourage to beleive in is when you do something to fix your environment such cleaning up the neighborhood charities(get all the grabage you hate to look at off the streets plus look good to your imediate community) or saving some endangerd animals type thing(you never know how an animal can keep the fragile ecosystem in balance).
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Original post: Phonicdev
What if you were all wrong though? What if there was such a thing, and the reason you dont fear ignoring these concepts is because, if your a satanist....whats 'bad'? obviously if you were christian you would try to be good because, you might got to 'hell' althought God should forgive you, but lets not go into that at the moment, if you believe what is 'bad' then what is there to fear? If your all right well then its fine right? and if your all wrong you'd probable go to 'hell' anyway? so i guess my point is do you banish these ideas simply because theres nothing enforcing them?
What if you were all wrong though? What if there was such a thing, and the reason you dont fear ignoring these concepts is because, if your a satanist....whats 'bad'? obviously if you were christian you would try to be good because, you might got to 'hell' althought God should forgive you, but lets not go into that at the moment, if you believe what is 'bad' then what is there to fear? If your all right well then its fine right? and if your all wrong you'd probable go to 'hell' anyway? so i guess my point is do you banish these ideas simply because theres nothing enforcing them?
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Original post: Phonicdev
sorry reading that a second time through it certainly seems like im having a dig, i'm not. just questioning.
sorry reading that a second time through it certainly seems like im having a dig, i'm not. just questioning.
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Original post: m1thr0s
Phonicdev - you seem to have a hopelessly simplistic view of Satanism. Try thinking of it as adamant self-determinism for just a moment instead of all the comic book crapola you may have been exposed to. The problem with Karma for many Satanists is that it relies heavily on the notion of preordained "casting" as evidenced by the caste system itself in India. Satanism generally rejects the notion of preordained anything. This is not about good and bad and whether you wind up in heaven or in hell or whether god bails you out or doesn't. None of those concepts mean much of anything to Satanists. This is about Dharma itself - or Destiny and how it works and doesn't work. The prevailing Satanic view is that individuals create their own destinies whether they know it or not. The basic premise of Karma is cause and effect and to this extent many Satanists might agree that the principle of Karma is valid but the doctrine of Karma - historically - has gone far beyond this and has become a kind of doctrine of stagnation, suggesting that the various hardships you encounter in life are the consequence of errors made in previous lives etc so there is nothing you can really do about that but just sort of shut up and accept it. It also goes on to suggest that there is an unseen wheel of justice at play in things that no one ever really escapes etc. which is blatantly ridiculous in practical reality. These kinds of notions don't wash very well with most Satanists. Whatever an individual's lot in life, Satanism asserts that the bottom line is fundamentally the same - that of recognizing and liberating the Deity within. So , by in large, the traditional doctrine of Karma is mostly a deterrent to that objective. The laws of Karma are weak and ineffectual and have not lent themselves traditionally to self-liberation in any kind of remarkable way. We can only know the value of any dogma by the fruit it bears. The teachings of Karma have not born any significant fruit on behalf of individuals but lend themselves to the so-called "just world premise" in almost all circumstances. This has no value to most Satanists who really don't give a damn what the odds may be...the bottom line is that destiny itself is still a matter of taking the bull by the horns and getting the task accomplished on your own initiative. And if they are wrong? If they are wrong, they will make the necessary adjustments when the time comes. In the meantime, it is better form to err on the side of deliberate self-reliance than on the side of deliberate self-effacement. Better to Rule in Hell than to Serve in Heaven.
m1thr0s
Phonicdev - you seem to have a hopelessly simplistic view of Satanism. Try thinking of it as adamant self-determinism for just a moment instead of all the comic book crapola you may have been exposed to. The problem with Karma for many Satanists is that it relies heavily on the notion of preordained "casting" as evidenced by the caste system itself in India. Satanism generally rejects the notion of preordained anything. This is not about good and bad and whether you wind up in heaven or in hell or whether god bails you out or doesn't. None of those concepts mean much of anything to Satanists. This is about Dharma itself - or Destiny and how it works and doesn't work. The prevailing Satanic view is that individuals create their own destinies whether they know it or not. The basic premise of Karma is cause and effect and to this extent many Satanists might agree that the principle of Karma is valid but the doctrine of Karma - historically - has gone far beyond this and has become a kind of doctrine of stagnation, suggesting that the various hardships you encounter in life are the consequence of errors made in previous lives etc so there is nothing you can really do about that but just sort of shut up and accept it. It also goes on to suggest that there is an unseen wheel of justice at play in things that no one ever really escapes etc. which is blatantly ridiculous in practical reality. These kinds of notions don't wash very well with most Satanists. Whatever an individual's lot in life, Satanism asserts that the bottom line is fundamentally the same - that of recognizing and liberating the Deity within. So , by in large, the traditional doctrine of Karma is mostly a deterrent to that objective. The laws of Karma are weak and ineffectual and have not lent themselves traditionally to self-liberation in any kind of remarkable way. We can only know the value of any dogma by the fruit it bears. The teachings of Karma have not born any significant fruit on behalf of individuals but lend themselves to the so-called "just world premise" in almost all circumstances. This has no value to most Satanists who really don't give a damn what the odds may be...the bottom line is that destiny itself is still a matter of taking the bull by the horns and getting the task accomplished on your own initiative. And if they are wrong? If they are wrong, they will make the necessary adjustments when the time comes. In the meantime, it is better form to err on the side of deliberate self-reliance than on the side of deliberate self-effacement. Better to Rule in Hell than to Serve in Heaven.
m1thr0s
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Original post: Interstellis
The thing is, the core of satanism is steeped in the here and now. Satanism is a philosophy that embraces Life. We can "what if" ourselves to death and that only serves to take our time and energy away from here and now. LaVey referred to the concept of karma/heaven/hell as spiritual pipe dreams and many satanists, no matter their point of view, pretty much agree with this. I'd rather die knowing I have Lived according to *my* Will and that I did not base my Life upon the promise of something that may or may not ever be.
The thing is, the core of satanism is steeped in the here and now. Satanism is a philosophy that embraces Life. We can "what if" ourselves to death and that only serves to take our time and energy away from here and now. LaVey referred to the concept of karma/heaven/hell as spiritual pipe dreams and many satanists, no matter their point of view, pretty much agree with this. I'd rather die knowing I have Lived according to *my* Will and that I did not base my Life upon the promise of something that may or may not ever be.
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Original post: Phonicdev
My ideas are more fate...i believe we're all here for a purpose no matter how insignificant, if only to be one of so many thousand to die from a disease so someone says 'lets make a cure' so more people can be saved in the long run. I do think we have complete control we're not robots, but altho we have this free will we all end up furfilling our destiny, but in my beliefs i know i'll die knowing that i did do what i wanted AND what i was ment too...and it gave my being here a purpose. Just wont really know what perpose that is untill I die or am very old and have heinsight
My ideas are more fate...i believe we're all here for a purpose no matter how insignificant, if only to be one of so many thousand to die from a disease so someone says 'lets make a cure' so more people can be saved in the long run. I do think we have complete control we're not robots, but altho we have this free will we all end up furfilling our destiny, but in my beliefs i know i'll die knowing that i did do what i wanted AND what i was ment too...and it gave my being here a purpose. Just wont really know what perpose that is untill I die or am very old and have heinsight