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Original post: Venefica

I am a Transhumanist, I believe in the possibility of human beings living for ever physically, and that is what I want for myself and what I am working for. Now I want to celebrate the Wiccan Sabbaths and Esbats. But I worry that their themes will time me more closely to the cycle of life, death and rebirth witch is what I am trying to escape. So I am not sure if the Energy of such celebrations will be in accordance whit my wish and workings for physical immortality.

Now in this tread I am not looking for a debate on whatever physical immortality is morally right or not, I am simply asking of Sabbaths and Esbats celebrations will mess up whit my workings for such immortality.

Original post: 1000ShadesofGrey

Venefica;289462 wrote: Now in this tread I am not looking for a debate on whatever physical immortality is morally right or not, I am simply asking of Sabbaths and Esbats celebrations will mess up whit my workings for such immortality.

I think they will. You probably should take a look at taoism, they were searching for physical imortality as well. Take a look at Michael Winn's work.

Original post: Venefica

Thank you for the advice. I will look into this author.

Original post: doh

Now I want to celebrate the Wiccan Sabbaths and Esbats. But I worry that their themes will time me more closely to the cycle of life, death and rebirth witch is what I am trying to escape

Of course they will. But have you ever considered the aspect that these Sabbats are based upon things FAR beyond the physical?

The themes are of a cycle, I'll give you that. But why should that cycle only be of the physical? Rather than looking at it as birth, life, death and rebirth, why not look at it as a beam of light that grabs your attention, your looking into it, your thinking it's not for you and following the path that it leads you to?

Simplistic, yes, but a thought.

Original post: Venefica

Perhaps. Though my main concern is if it will interfere whit what I do to get physical immortality. I know the celebrations are not just physical, I also know they can be very beneficial for developing Spiritually, that is why I want to do them. But my other work, that for immortality comes first and I do not want to do thing that get in the way of that.

Original post: Centrix

Rarely have I met another Transhumanist on such a message board, even if it is a virtual acquaintance. I'm so very glad you see the value in physical immortality and future technological capabilities in that direction!

Original post: Daedra_Lord

This is a very interesting topic I looked up some things on transhumanism. But the World Transhumanist Association say that they want to extend human capabilities through the use of modern technological advances. Is it a mystical/magical solution to the problem you seek. Like the age old quest for the philosophers stone and the elixir of life concept found in both Western and Eastern alchemy. This has always interested me as well. I believe this process describes the full ascended adept, who has mastered all the lower worlds and become reunited with the Divine Spark. He is beyond life and death and I suppose he can control when he would die and extend life as long as he does deem necessary. But the image of the true magus is almost a mythical one. The ascended adept is one who succeeds in reuniting the lower and higher worlds the "inferiours and "superiors". As described in the Emerald Tablet. The Divine and human, and the spiritual and material (My thoughts on it at least).

Anyway for the seasonal cycles and the Sabbats. I may be wrong but I think all the solar or vegetative gods that were born, suffered, died and rose again eventually transcended to a new state of beings and became divine powers themselves. Perhaps these archetypal forces embody the very essence of the adept as I described above. So perhaps by attuning to the cycles you can eventually learn more about life and death and the power that eventually transcends all these things.



This is just speculation on my part however. Not saying it is absolurte truth or real.

Original post: Venefica

I seek both. I see no reason why I would not use both methods. I am most interested in nano technology and stem cells my fiance is interested in longevity drugs. Both are getting into diets and such to extend lifespan.

I also do ritual and magickal works to archive this. I think that it is a difficult task to to so both science and magick and every other tool that falls my way should be considered for use.

What I however have found, and I may be wrong here in the legends and tales of the mystical adepts is that they made their Spirit immortal, not their bodies. Surly a good plan to fall back on but not my primary goal. But I may be mistaken here. Thank you for your replay however, it have given me something to think about.

Rarely have I met another Transhumanist on such a message board, even if it is a virtual acquaintance. I'm so very glad you see the value in physical immortality and future technological capabilities in that direction!

I have found that so many thinks that immortality and the search for it is evil. I have even been threaten on my life for this search. It is good to meet another whit such interests. What method do you think hold most promise. Short time as in extending life some decades I hold a thumb on diets and find many fascinating things there, that and some drugs that slow the decay of the brain, but I think what I am most interested in is nano technology. It is also very exiting now that they have managed to create a nerve cell. For a crab though but still, it give grate hope that they might one day replace much of what ages and die, replenishing the body so to speak. Also I heard of this man that had managed to slow the progress of that early aging illness, is it pogeria it is named in English? That resherch will be interesting to see the fruit of, it may have very interesting uses.

Original post: Centrix

Venefica;289740 wrote:I have found that so many thinks that immortality and the search for it is evil. I have even been threaten on my life for this search. It is good to meet another whit such interests. What method do you think hold most promise. Short time as in extending life some decades I hold a thumb on diets and find many fascinating things there, that and some drugs that slow the decay of the brain, but I think what I am most interested in is nano technology. It is also very exiting now that they have managed to create a nerve cell. For a crab though but still, it give grate hope that they might one day replace much of what ages and die, replenishing the body so to speak. Also I heard of this man that had managed to slow the progress of that early aging illness, is it pogeria it is named in English? That resherch will be interesting to see the fruit of, it may have very interesting uses.

It is quite peculiar that most all human culture deny the need for physical immortality and even a few intelligent scientists deny that it is possible to accomplish. It is impossible to convince suicidals that life is worth living. The reality of death is harsh. I wait patiently for the time (and it is an inevitability) technology such as you mentioned will reverse the aging disease and restore the personality and memories of a person who is considered legally dead today. That means keeping myself alive today by taking care of myself and live to see the future. I'm not into diets much, however I do watch what I eat and take care of my body. I am also signed up for cryonics -- if anything happens and I deanimate, the premise of cryonics is that most tissue stays alive long after physical death. By preserving the body, future science will restore and fix it back to good health.

Many breakthroughs are occuring that indicate this is quite possible; simply look at this:

Doctors Change The Way They Think About Death.

I wish you the best of luck in your quest for authentic immortality! While many may think your views are radical or "evil" or "crazy", you will surely live on long after they are buried in their graves! :evil:

I love life too much, and I suspect you do too considering your interest in Transhumanism. I really like people who are life affirming.

I am a medical student, by the way, and I wish to eventually go deeper in this field and help as much as possible. Have you heard of Dr. Aubrey de Grey or read his books? I recommend his book:

Ending Aging: The Rejuvenation Breakthroughs That Could Reverse Human Aging in Our Lifetime


Check out this website (http://www.imminst.org/) and find out more about this fascinating field.

Talk to you later!

Original post: Kath_

I think, if you're involving a spiritual element in your transhumanist quest, that allowing yourself to be psychologically, emotionally, energetically involved in a rite which celebrates a cycle of life with a definitive end, could be harmful to you.

I'd say attend if you want, but don't let yourself become emotionally or psychologically engaged in the goings on. Like an atheist in church

Original post: VERTIGO

I, for one, renew the suggestion of taoism: qigong and taoist alchemy can be very good for your healt and make you age really slowly: most of it is also "Scientifically Proved" (i'm not saying westener science regognize the existence of qi, what i'm saying is that qigong is a tecnique of PROVEN EFFICACY even by the scientifical Point of wiev)

However, i'm pretty positive that eternal live would, in the end, become Horribly BORING XD
Also, yeah, back in topic: Sabbaths and Esbaths are really bad for you, if you're really into this paradigm

Original post: Anathema_Oracle

I am a Transhumanist

Sounds interesting Venfica. I've been hearing that word a lot lately. What is a transhumanist and how does that relate to immortality? Interesting topic!

Original post: Venefica

Centrix:

I wait patiently for the time (and it is an inevitability) technology such as you mentioned will reverse the aging disease and restore the personality and memories of a person who is considered legally dead today. That means keeping myself alive today by taking care of myself and live to see the future.

I think the main problem is over population, it will be difficult to give immortality to all and still have pepole breed like rabbits. One could off course assume that when life no longer have a definitive end that pepole will slow down on child bearing we have seen this as life expectensy go up child birth go down. However will this be a sure enough trend and will immortality when they find it be given only to a few, and how would one assure to be among those that get it, that is what I wonder.

For me there is so many things I want to learn, and besides I like me. I want to be me, not reincarnate and so on where parts of me go on. I want to be the person I am. Also I want as much time as I want to do the things I want in life, whit no biological clock over my head to determine my years.

When I was two or three years old, I think, sometime around that age I asked my mother if she would ever die, she answered me that she would live to be a hundred so I did not need to worry. I asked her if human being lived for one hundred years and she said yes. From that moment on I was aware of that clock. I remember sitting and thinking whit my child mind that I wondered if one had time to open ones presents on ones 100 birthday or if one one die first and right there I made the choice to fight that clock to find immortality so that quest have been whit me since I was a child.

I have not read ending aging yet. I came out last month it is in my Amazon wish list but as we have been moving I have not had the cash this month to pick it up. But thank you for the advice. I really want that book and is getting it the next time I buy books from Amazon.

Kath

Thank you for the advice. For me I am solitary at least for now so it is not a matter of having to attend the rites. I think I would not attend rites I did not want to do. I just think the sabbats and esbats are nice and would be nice to incoperate in my life. But yes. I to suspect it may hurt my immortality work.

VERTIGO

I have been looking into several Asian systems and have found much promise there. Especially in Taoism that are very connected to Immortality in the first place. Thank you for the advice. Could you recommend some good books?

However, i'm pretty positive that eternal live would, in the end, become Horribly BORING XD

That is possible. But for me I want my life to be as long as I choose. If I find immortality to boring after a long time I am sure I could find ways to end my existence. But I want it to be my choice. That be 90 years or 900 000 000 years or more.

Anathema_Oracle

Sounds interesting Venfica. I've been hearing that word a lot lately. What is a transhumanist and how does that relate to immortality? Interesting topic!

A transhumanist is a man or a woman that want to be more than human, some have special interest in increasing physical capabilities some mental and some want to slow or stop aging. Generally scientific methods are used to archive this. Basically we want the child of man science to make us more than human. Cybernetics for advancement not just replacement, immortality, super human physical ability, beauty or intelligence, higher endurance this is all things that transhumanists want and hope science can give them. Off course the scope vary from person to person. But to make a long story short. A transhumanist is someone that want to be more than human.

Original post: Centrix

Venefica;289867 wrote:
I think the main problem is over population, it will be difficult to give immortality to all and still have pepole breed like rabbits.

Most will reject immortality outright. They will choose, through free will, to die. Besides, when we soon reach the ability to keep a human body alive without aging, we will have the technology to fix over population problems. I do not, however, believe in over population at all. The world is not over populated, and probably will not when immortality arrives. Ray Kurzweil speaks of the coming Singularity where superhumans -- human beings enhanced with machines and bioengineering and essentially "godlike" to a mere mortal today -- will be able to live side by side next to ordinary humans.

One could off course assume that when life no longer have a definitive end that pepole will slow down on child bearing we have seen this as life expectensy go up child birth go down.

Exactly.

However will this be a sure enough trend and will immortality when they find it be given only to a few, and how would one assure to be among those that get it, that is what I wonder.

We need to find a solution to death now. Over population problems can wait. Those who claim physical immortality conflicts with environmentalism and will create more problems are essentially saying to let people (who can be saved in the future) die off until we find a solution. It is funny they claim physical immortality is wrong and immoral, yet their other best solution is worse.

For me there is so many things I want to learn, and besides I like me. I want to be me, not reincarnate and so on where parts of me go on. I want to be the person I am. Also I want as much time as I want to do the things I want in life, whit no biological clock over my head to determine my years.

When I was two or three years old, I think, sometime around that age I asked my mother if she would ever die, she answered me that she would live to be a hundred so I did not need to worry. I asked her if human being lived for one hundred years and she said yes. From that moment on I was aware of that clock. I remember sitting and thinking whit my child mind that I wondered if one had time to open ones presents on ones 100 birthday or if one one die first and right there I made the choice to fight that clock to find immortality so that quest have been whit me since I was a child.

Good job on looking more into the Temple of the Vampire! You do not sound like most human beings at all. You will find there people exactly like you who are more than willing to help you achieve your goal from many approaches including the scientific aspect we are discussing. There is more than one way to approach this goal. I'm not going to further discuss this in a public forum.

I have not read ending aging yet. I came out last month it is in my Amazon wish list but as we have been moving I have not had the cash this month to pick it up. But thank you for the advice. I really want that book and is getting it the next time I buy books from Amazon.

No problem.

Original post: Anathema_Oracle

What a great topic! Thanks for the clarification Venfica. ÃÂ

Original post: Centrix

Anathema_Oracle;289908 wrote: Centrix, just to clarify, those statements you're making regarding this topic aren't sarcastic snipes are they? I don't think I've seen you as enthusiastic over a topic before.

Out of the hogwash and mystical fancies (excuse my harsh opinion), this does grab my interest, and I am therefore not being sarcastic.

So Transhumanism is basically a non-spiritual movement that wants to apply technology to achieving the things humans could never gain, only imagine, through metaphysics?

Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy of enlightenment/transcendence?

I don't see why someone cannot add their own spiritual elements if they wish. I also suggest reading The Age of Spiritual Machines by Ray Kurzweil for a different viewpoint on the beauty of the material world as it is without any spiritual dimension. I am not spiritual, however. Most Transhumanist are skeptical atheists, and I would classify myself under that for the most part.

For the last question, think of how far we are today compared to the medieval period. Are we not "magical" or transcendent in their (hypothetical) eyes? When aging is finally controlled and reversed (this is a high probability approaching soon), how will this redefine what it is to be "human?"

Original post: Anathema_Oracle

On that topic. Some people speculate that machines can never be considered conscious, not just religious people or those who are vitalists, but philosophers too, that guy who thought up the chinese room paradox. Forgot his name.

A synthesis of biological/cybernetic creations, although a long way off I understand, seems to be the most logical assessment. I guess the days of the existential crisis will be over if this ever becomes a reality.

The other futurist idea I've heard of is uploading the human mind onto a synthetic or artificial system, though I don't know how viable that notion may or may not be. I remember seeing adds for 'neural computers' or somesuch, that was back in '99 I don't know how far we've come along on that road.

For myself, I've come to the conclusion that self-reflexive consciousness may not always solely be the characteristic of the human being, but other thinking machines, whether artificial, bio engineered or a hybridization of both or some other unknown technological breakthrough.

The complete automation of manufacturing, service industries, creation and application of energy and fuel sources may be the key to allowing this immortality hypothesis to not be such a drag as some philosophers think it would be.

Note, I did start a thread on death based off existentialist notions of life and materialist ideas on death, this thread seems to be the other side of the coin.

Very interesting!

Original post: Centrix

Anathema_Oracle;289911 wrote:Note, I did start a thread on death based off existentialist notions of life and materialist ideas on death, this thread seems to be the other side of the coin.

There is always another side to things. Most of the skeptical arguments against transhumanism and immortality is that we don't have the technology for any of it and it is all a guess. The skeptics then quit and leave us with nothing to solve. They get bored quickly. Transhumanists, on seeing something not working, start to think "Alright, so this did not work. What can we do to fix this?"

As long as it is not forbidden by physical law, and none of the predictions on bioengineering, immortality, and posthumanity break the laws of physics, then it is achievable. It is only a matter of when, not if. Scientists already mapped the entire human genome and have discovered the gene responsible for aging in rats.

Original post: Anathema_Oracle

As long as it is not forbidden by physical law, and none of the predictions on bioengineering, immortality, and posthumanity break the laws of physics, then it is achievable. It is only a matter of when, not if.

One thing Ive learned in my plodding way is that when something has a basis and those with enough intelligence and imagination 'predict' or hypothesise such an occurance, there's a good chance it can happen.

I was listening to an astronomer on the radio, quite a prolific and important one and basically his conclusions from studying the universe for 30 or so years is that the theoretical possibilities are usually borne out in reality when the technology catches up.

I mean, people were fairly accurate at mapping the world's oceans and continents long before anyone got into space to see the shape of the world. We can do it, the ability to speculate, think laterally and fulfill our ambitions is something humans seem to be good at.

Example: My cell phone has GPS, the internet, a video camera, mp3 player etc. Basically this type of technology was theoretical, what? sixty years ago? We had the preliminaries for it, radio, cameras, surveying maps, primitive computers etc.

Look at it now, technology of communication is getting greater and more proficient, the combination of technologies into single devices, miniaturization of technology, something that will get more prolific if nanotech evolves further is encouraging.

Anyway, I'm no scientist or philosopher, I'm really a fantasist in a lot of ways, but some dreams can come true right?

Original post: Centrix

The best inventions and creations start with creativity. Everything great we have today started as a mental thought of the possibilities with a little patience for the future to catch up. The famous inventors were ahead of their time. I am reminded of the Wright Brothers situation when newspapers were still claiming heavier than air flight was impossible when they were already flying and testing their planes over the heads of the skeptics!

Original post: VERTIGO

[QUOTE=Venefica;289867]Could you recommend some good books?
[/QUOTE]

Let's see:
I'm actually into "The Way of Qigong" by Kenneth S.Cohen, it's a really pragmatic, no-nonsense book; written with a really objective mindset and "scientific datas" you could find interesting.
I've also read some of the books of Yang Jwing-Ming, but i don't know the english title for them: also, really good but really really really time consuming: you could actually find yourself wondering about the usefullness of some aspects of the techniquest he shows.
Also, pretty much anything by Mantak Chia should be fine (just keep and be cautious for the "strangest" techniques, some of them are prouposely written wrong, beacose by the time you read them you should be able to understand where the error is by your own: it's just some kind of exam, pretty weird actually).
And, in the end, i also strongly recommend "The Mistery of the Golden Flower" (Hypotetic title, it's just the direct translation of the title of the book i've got there, i don't know if in the usa or other countries it has been translated differently): a classical (middle-age period) book of chinese internal alchemy by Lu Tzu, largely Icomprehensible for rookies, you should however have no problems with it if you read something about qigong before.
However, if you manage to understand it...well...it's PURE GOLD.
SERIOUSLY.

Original post: Centrix

Qigong is a good excersise. However, I would not put too much emphasis on it over proven scientific techniques when it comes to keeping a healthy and strong body. It can compliment it, however.

Original post: VERTIGO

Something has not to be scientifically proven ,to Work.
"Gravity" existed way before Newton.
However, of all the "complementary" medicines (and exercises), qigong is the best on this point of view: just read some of the books i've recomended and you'll see for yourself.

Original post: Raziel.AE

Answering the original question,

I think it mainly depends with your take on it, if you believe it (the practice of the Sabbaths/Esbaths) will tie you to and eventual end of this lifetime, it will, but you could also see it from another side, as change being a factor in immortality, or better saying renewal, I mean, it is one of the things all those medical/healing things want, no? a perfect renovation of the cells all the time (or, avoiding degeneration of/during the process, anyway, it sounded better on my head... I could be wrong too, please correct if so) of course the other way could work just as well, disconnecting of the cycle altogether would get you what you want too...

I myself believe in immortality, but a somewhat diverse "we are all already immortal", though I am trying to find a way to preserve my "self" through death, because I hate to forget it all XD
but physical immortality is on my list too...

Well, whatever, and good luck with that

Original post: Seraphiel

Hello Everyone
I am too interessted in the theme of physical immortality and physical enchancement that's something that has atraccted me to Inner Alchemy since many texts i have read relate the philosopher's stone with physical imortality and perfection both in western and eastern philosophies i am studying acupuncuture and in the teory of the energy works of the body we were taugth that people are born with what is called in acupuncuture pre-natal essence or jing this essence is lost trough our life and that's what causes aging and death if one could purify this essence or restore it aging would stop and the body would be in perfect health or it could be stolen from other people hence vampirism but of course this is acupuncuture view on the energy workings but inner alchemy\magick seems a good solid choice for the spiritual part of your quest.
Wish You Luck