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friends first the most basic question, what is magic?

some says magic is nothing but the sleight of hand.

but that kind of magic is a lie, mere mimicry of real magic and often used for entertainment. that is not real magic.

some says magic is the art of causing change willfully.

well then, science could be magic because in science we also cause change willfully. it is not real magic.

some says magic is the art of magi.

well that's true but this definition does not explain the nature of magic. it is not real magic.

some says magic is the art of raising power to do a certain effect willfully.

well this definition is very vague and ambiguous.

well then what is magic any way?

magic is the art of mixing natural things to create wonderful effect. it is the art of knowing the nature of things and to mix them to create an effect. for example, by mixing horse's tail with water, one can create worms. by mixing a barren thing with a fertile thing to make the later barren.by lighting lamp made of skin of snake , one can create shadow of snake in the wall although there is no snake in the room. this is real magic.

There are always three questions I ask someone when I start teaching them about magic - what is magic, how does it work and why does it work? I tell them that the answers to these three questions change depending on how long they have been studying magic for, can sometimes change from day to day, and are never wrong.

For me, magic is simply dynamic change. Science, nature, or basically anything can involve the essence of magic - magic doesnt have to involve people, nor does it have to involve the occult. Magic can happen in the smallest of atomic or subatomic reactions, quantum physics being a form of magic in this way, or magic can happen on such a huge degree that we might miss it because we cant even begin to comprehend its scope due to the sheer enormity of its size.

We simply dont have to understand magic in order for magic to work. Once we start to realise that magic simply is there, all around us and in everything, then we can stop worrying about what it is and where it resides and simply just live within it, manipulating it and enjoying its presence. Dont question it, simply know its there and that you can use it - thats all you need to know.

Case wrote:
For me, magic is simply dynamic change. Science, nature, or basically anything can involve the essence of magic - magic doesnt have to involve people, nor does it have to involve the occult. Magic can happen in the smallest of atomic or subatomic reactions, quantum physics being a form of magic in this way, or magic can happen on such a huge degree that we might miss it because we cant even begin to comprehend its scope due to the sheer enormity of its size.

from where you find out this definition of magic? i found out my definition from the works of Agrippa and Paracelsus. please mention your source of knowledge.

We simply dont have to understand magic in order for magic to work.

it sounds like you don't have to understand medical science in order for medical science to work.

arnab wrote:

Case wrote:
For me, magic is simply dynamic change. Science, nature, or basically anything can involve the essence of magic - magic doesnt have to involve people, nor does it have to involve the occult. Magic can happen in the smallest of atomic or subatomic reactions, quantum physics being a form of magic in this way, or magic can happen on such a huge degree that we might miss it because we cant even begin to comprehend its scope due to the sheer enormity of its size.

from where you find out this definition of magic? i found out my definition from the works of Agrippa and Paracelsus. please mention your source of knowledge.

I discovered my definition from twenty six years of magical study into the theory and practice of what magic is and how it affects me and the world around me. My theory comes from my own observations.

arnab wrote:

Case wrote: We simply dont have to understand magic in order for magic to work.

it sounds like you don't have to understand medical science in order for medical science to work.

Magic is an energy which we study, the study of which forms the paradigms of magic. Medical science is a paradigm too, a paradigm of knowledge, and therefore requires that one studies it in order to unlock the depths of knowledge that it contains. In the same way a person studies magic in order to manipulate it and to bend it to their will, so does someone study medical science to learn its secrets and to practice it on other people.

I've always been fond of this definition:

"Natural magic . . . is nothing more than the deepest
knowledge of the secrets of nature."
Del Rio, Disquisitiones Magicae, 1606

But that's just me

it sounds like you don't have to understand medical science in order for medical science to work.

It could be argued that you don't. For example, most people who take medication have little to no understanding of how that medication improves their health, but it does so anyway (hopefully). Hell, I've met plenty of doctors who don't understand medicine beyond cause - effect and operate on little more than book learning and formulaic treatment (if patient exhibits X + Y symptoms, then I do Z). Obviously those who have a deeper understanding of what's happening will make better doctors, just as those who have a deeper understanding of what's happening when you perform magic will make better magicians.

Rin wrote:I've always been fond of this definition:

"Natural magic . . . is nothing more than the deepest
knowledge of the secrets of nature."
Del Rio, Disquisitiones Magicae, 1606

I agree strongly with this. I would even go as far as to remove the first word.

When we strip away what we have been 'taught', the ways we have been conditioned etc. and begin to look at this experience, at the world around us it should become evident that everything is completely magickal. (From the great William Blake: "If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern.")
Magick is a wasp stinging you, a fat person eating a burger, an idiot talking, a stalker stalking, a rotting corpse on a children's playground. The fact that these words can be read and to some degree interpreted and understood is majik. We are 'alive' because of magickal processes.
I know that this is beyond the scope of the question... but yeah, to me magick is the realization and utilization of the deeper underlying forces of the universe. I don't think we could really pin down a proper definition without beginning to sound a little dogmatic. I think it is important to be reminded of the old saying "the map is not the territory", the word is not the concept, the concept is not the thing and the thing almost certainly cannot be entirely understood or even experienced in totality. Each person's understanding of this stuff just reflects what they have been taught and what they have experienced. BLEAH! [tongue2]

1] circe uses a potion to turn oddesyus and his men into beasts.

2] Jason had to plough a field with fire-breathing oxen that he had to yoke himself. Medea gave him an unguent with which to anoint himself and his weapons, to protect him from the bulls' fiery breath.

3] Medea put the beast to sleep with her narcotic herbs.

4] Talos was slain either when Medea drove him mad with drugs.

5] Medea hypnotized talos from the Argo.

6]circe was known for her vast knowledge of drugs and herbs.

7] Hermes told Odysseus to use the holy herb moly to protect himself from Circe's potion.

8] Circe used magical herbs to bring Odysseus back to life after he had been killed by Telegonus.

from the eight cases above it is found that magician circe or medea used natural herbs, potions to do wonderful effect( turning human into animals,driving somebody mad etc.).

from these cases it can be deduced that magic is actually the art of causing wonderfull effect by mixture of natural things.

this is the most logical definition of magic.

Magick and magic are just words. It's the effect which is the power, or at least it seems to be power to those who don't understand. To the initiated and adepts, it could be mere daily life. So, science, while simple and understood by our generation, is just another magic. I don't think magick is contained within mixtures, although mixing things, even ideas, can probably cause great change (which would be considered wonderful and amazing power to those who don't understand).

That's not to say, of course, that the child-like wonder should be gone from those who do understand, cause that's an important part of being stable enough on the inside to pull a lot of this stuff off. But those who know (and for the most part, I'm not one) wouldn't put whimsical claims on what's going on. For instance, when I was young, I really thought there was a little man singing in the radio box. When shamans saw these days in their vision thousands of years ago, they thought we rode around in metal birds and fired lightning.

Magick is probably whatever the practitioner says it is, as he or she is the one doing the magick, and for all we know, maybe he or she is the only one who knows his or her personal version of what he or she is practicing. So only they can give the explanation and definition. So there are probably a veritible 7+ billion definitions, as there usually end up being for any given thing.

I think the most WIDELY accepted definition of magic in the occult community is:
Using indirect means to effect the world in tangible ways.
All that means is that people can, theoretically, effect the world without doing anything to directly achieve that effect.

While the use of herbs and ingredients that you're discussing is definitely one FORM of magical practice, it is not the only one. You can also wear a funny hat and dance around in circles to achieve similar effects. Magic is something held in common by many cultures across many centuries and most regions of the world, and everyone has their own ideas about it and their own ways of practicing it.

I, personally, am very fond of herbs and of the Hellenic paradigm that you're referring to, but I also practice my own "made up" forms of chaos magic that involve comic book and video game characters, scribbles on paper and lucid dreaming.

reptilian wrote:I, personally, am very fond of herbs and of the Hellenic paradigm that you're referring to, but I also practice my own "made up" forms of chaos magic that involve comic book and video game characters, scribbles on paper and lucid dreaming.

Exactly - its just a question of paradigms and interpretation. Like I said, there simply is no wrong nor right answer - the magic is there, we use it, things happen and stuff changes.

Why does everything have to have a reason for happening anyway?

Because then we would all go crazy and explode and die and AHH!

Case wrote:
Exactly - its just a question of paradigms and interpretation. Like I said, there simply is no wrong nor right answer - the magic is there, we use it, things happen and stuff changes.

Why does everything have to have a reason for happening anyway?

look it is not that there is no right or wrong. it is about whether to have a practical result or not? in herbs magic everybody will get a practical result. that result has undoubted relation with the use of herbs. for example: if you use a herb and your physical power increased, there is a undoubted relation between increase of your physical power and use of herb. any scientist will agree with this.

but the relation between magical ceremonies and happening of miracle is not beyond doubt. so i want to exclude doubtful practices from magic to make it more solid and sound and evidence-based.

i hope i will get help from magical communities.

If your goal is to disprove many "doubtful" forms of magick and narrow it down to only the provable, you will only be proven wrong.

Yeah. Saying that the study of herbal supplements is the pinnacle of magic is a bit ho-hum really as far as Im concerned, but to each their own I guess...

look it is not that there is no right or wrong. it is about whether to have a practical result or not? in herbs magic everybody will get a practical result. that result has undoubted relation with the use of herbs. for example: if you use a herb and your physical power increased, there is a undoubted relation between increase of your physical power and use of herb. any scientist will agree with this.

They have a name for what you're describing, it's called 'chemistry.'

The science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with will using means not currently understood by traditional Western science.

arnab wrote:if you use a herb and your physical power increased, there is a undoubted relation between increase of your physical power and use of herb. any scientist will agree with this.

Erm, what? How is this logical at all? There are uncountable variables that could have affected your "physical power". No scientist would ever agree with that. It's simply not scientific in any conceivable way.

arnab wrote: the relation between magical ceremonies and happening of miracle is not beyond doubt. so i want to exclude doubtful practices from magic to make it more solid and sound and evidence-based.

Most anyone with good practice using sigils or ritual/ceremonial would probably disagree. With experience, any form of working magic will become fairly reliable; personally, I can whip up a sigil and get it charged, working, and have a result (every time, to varying degrees) pretty easily, since I've had good practice and i'm comfortable with that particular method. However, ask me to put together a mojo bag, brew a potion, or even what tea will work for a headache, and i'm gonna be about as effective as rubbing Aloe Vera on a gunshot wound.

In other words, it's all effective - if you know what you're doing.

Muloc7253 wrote:The science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with will using means not currently understood by traditional Western science.

Absolutely. There are two types of magic; causual (we understand how it happened (potato farming, tax collecting etc.)) and acausual (what we normally refer to as magic. Muloc's definition restricts it to the latter in order to more accurately answer the original question )

Within Scion magic is called "weaving".
Destiny is seen as a large amount of strings of events interacting, weaving is the art of manipulating how the strings interact and the traits of strings.
Also, weaving involves manipulation of lifeforce and subtle energy to increase performance, heal or cause damage on souls.

With other words, magic to Scion is manipulation of that which humans normally are ignorant of.

This is done through willpower, at times a servant (called MI) is used to aid the weaver.