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anyone here a part of it?

what do you think?

i'm just past the half-way point of my Liber MMM training. a lot of people think it's too structured and dogmatic, but that's what i like about it. no beating around the bush and making excuses for not doing magic, you know?

anyway, so far it's working super well for me and upped my results to like a 8/10 ratio (8 times out of 10 my stuff works).

other than my mentor, i don't really have anyone to talk to about this stuff, so i'd love to hear what you guys have to say. [gz]

Yes, I'm an Initiate of the IOT.

Congratulations on your increasing success rate. That's what it's about. So when others rag you about structured training you can just tell them that structured training delivers results better than fannying about as you feel like. If you want to be a good magician, you simply have to put in the flight time in learning and practicing the skills. I've watched the MMM program produce loads of rock hard competent magicians I've been proud to to work with and happy to have fun with. Choyofaque!

the Kite wrote:Yes, I'm an Initiate of the IOT.

Congratulations on your increasing success rate. That's what it's about. So when others rag you about structured training you can just tell them that structured training delivers results better than fannying about as you feel like. If you want to be a good magician, you simply have to put in the flight time in learning and practicing the skills. I've watched the MMM program produce loads of rock hard competent magicians I've been proud to to work with and happy to have fun with. Choyofaque!

awesome :> good to know someone who is in it other than my mentor.

yeah, i'm on day 93 of my training and, even though i only need to do 3 rituals a week, i usually practice them everyday (just gotta remember to record them as i do it).

i love the training but i'm in the hump right now where i wouldn't mind skipping a day of not meditating and ritualing for an hour :/

getting through it, though.

Also, i'm really nervous about my initiation :x i know i shouldn't be because i do invocations and evocations and divinations and what-not almost everyday, but still....

Heh heh. The hump is there to be got over. Any fool can do the disciplines of MMM for a few weeks. It's how you respond when you have to do them month after month that strengthens your will, gives you time to really run the program and makes a magician of you.

And Initiation is supposed to be important enought to feel nervous about. Again, just be The Magician about it, yes?

Good hunting!

Kite

the Kite wrote:Heh heh. The hump is there to be got over. Any fool can do the disciplines of MMM for a few weeks. It's how you respond when you have to do them month after month that strengthens your will, gives you time to really run the program and makes a magician of you.

And Initiation is supposed to be important enought to feel nervous about. Again, just be The Magician about it, yes?

Good hunting!

Kite

thanks kite! man i can't wait to meet the members of my temple :> when i get good enough i might try to gather up some people to start a temple out here, since i just can't believe there isn't one in my city [crymore] we have churches, buddhist temples, hindu temples, quaker churches, and well... pretty much every single kind of building of gathering under the sun other than an IOT temple.

-jack

We're not a church, so we don't do bespoke buildings. We can do our stuff anywhere. While there may not be a temple in your city, is there anything stopping you getting a few people together and starting a working group? Y'know, a few people into magic, a little curious about chaos magic, not obvious nutters ...

the Kite wrote:We're not a church, so we don't do bespoke buildings. We can do our stuff anywhere. While there may not be a temple in your city, is there anything stopping you getting a few people together and starting a working group? Y'know, a few people into magic, a little curious about chaos magic, not obvious nutters ...

i personally don't know too many people :/ the ones i do know are wiccan and they don't like my magic style [grr]

but then again i probably haven't properly looked for people. that'll be a good project for the next few months. would the IOT be opposed to a designated building? i mean that is way down the road for me and i never look farther than a couple months, but i do like to entertain thoughts.

I know of no prohibition on a designated building (prohibit? Us? 'Everything is permitted?') But think of the overheads: rent or mortgage, taxes, maintenance and repairs, utility bills, security. And think of the income to pay for that. Think of the commitment to a single place in an organisation where the people are so mobile. Think of us being tied down to all that and beginning to resemble the very organisations on which we turned our backs. I just don't think it's worth it.

It's worth looking around for people, though. Try this for an approach to your local Wiccans etc.:

http://theblogofbaphomet.com/2012/04/01 ... agan-year/

I just would like to know since i was always very curious.. what makes people look for getting intiate by groups and consequently be apart of them. You can get almost all informations by yourself so for me it doesn't make sense but i would like to know people motivations if they are will to share them. Do you guys contribute financially or you are just accepted for you hunger for learning?

hobotubbie wrote:I just would like to know since i was always very curious.. what makes people look for getting intiate by groups and consequently be apart of them. You can get almost all informations by yourself so for me it doesn't make sense but i would like to know people motivations if they are will to share them. Do you guys contribute financially or you are just accepted for you hunger for learning?

my personal reason for wanting to join a reputable group is mostly because i work better that way. i mean... i'm pretty well self-motivated, but i don't know anyone where i am really who does magic. that means all my support and learning comes from just me. i mean, that's fine and all... i am an autodidact so it's not like i haven't done that before, but i just don't want to do that with magic.

so, what i did was i happened to have found a group that shares all the same beliefs as me, but has way more knowledge in the matter, and joined up.

the IOT does not require any money to join, and i'm pretty sure it doesn't down the road, too. and, tho i'm not officially in it yet, this much i can tell you so far: you don't get accepted just cuz you have a hunger for learning [lol] there's an application, and if your application gets accepted, you get a phone interview, and if your phone interview went well, they call you up and you do Liber MMM training for 6 months (everyday!!!), and if you pass your initiation THEN you're in (but you can still get kicked out if you're an ass).

[wink]

So, hey...
Sorry for barging in, but how much time do you spend on your praxis each day?
Like, how long does it take?
[geek2]

TheSeeker wrote:So, hey...
Sorry for barging in, but how much time do you spend on your praxis each day?
Like, how long does it take?
[geek2]

now that i'm just past my halfway point, it's about an hour to an hour and a half every day at least. of course i'm an overachiever [tongue] i'm only required to do 45 minutes a day.

Jack-o-diamonds wrote:...it's about an hour to an hour and a half every day at least. of course i'm an overachiever...

I admire your sticktoitiveness. That's a considerable commitment, and really the main thing that would hold me back from commiting to a group like the IOT.
I'm just not sure I have the energy to throw another thing onto the list each day, although I suppopse I might be able to squeeze in a quick LBRP while the boys are in the tub! [grin2]
Good luck with your studies!

Ok then, that was enlightning. I used the expression hunger for learning because i believe it's the principle behind any good occultist. Ofcourse we need some skills but it's like in everything, hard work pays off.
What are you talking about when you say it's not the only thing needed? Your talking about any specific aspect of one self? I hope your not talking about special abilities coz everyone out there thinks he's a god reincarnated or some kind of fallen angel etc and thats so boring..

hobotubbie wrote:Ok then, that was enlightning. I used the expression hunger for learning because i believe it's the principle behind any good occultist. Ofcourse we need some skills but it's like in everything, hard work pays off.
What are you talking about when you say it's not the only thing needed? Your talking about any specific aspect of one self? I hope your not talking about special abilities coz everyone out there thinks he's a god reincarnated or some kind of fallen angel etc and thats so boring..

no, nothing like that. like i said, i'm not in it yet so i can't answer for them, but as far as i gather they have a pretty strict screening process to weed out the assholes and the crazies and basically anyone who they think won't make a good member. anyone who thinks they are a god reincarnated or some kind of fallen angel, i could tell you, would most likely not make it to the phone interview point.

Thats reassuring.. kinda sick of that trend. I was asking more to see what drives people to join these groups and i guess i'm pleased because you answered. Regarding the rules of the group i believe that even when you are in you won't be revealing (don't know how secretive the group is tho) but thanks for the answer anyways.

No. I respect the IoT a lot though but I am afraid to conform to anything.

I heard about this group of ancient egyptian empaths and it scared the crap out of me. I mean ... there is vengeance and justice but then there is putting needles in the penis just for shits and giggles. I've been afraid of joining anything ever since then but I like to observe the IoT whenever possible. They seem like a decent (and strong) bunch. [thumbup] But I still prefer to be on my own. At the same time I don't prefer to be on my own. I confuse myself. [stare]

talus wrote:No. I respect the IoT a lot though but I am afraid to conform to anything.

I heard about this group of ancient egyptian empaths and it scared the crap out of me. I mean ... there is vengeance and justice but then there is putting needles in the penis just for shits and giggles. I've been afraid of joining anything ever since then but I like to observe the IoT whenever possible. They seem like a decent (and strong) bunch. [thumbup] But I still prefer to be on my own. At the same time I don't prefer to be on my own. I confuse myself. [stare]

it's no probs, that's why the IOT doesn't actively seek members or try to recruit anyone. if someone wants to join badly enough, they are the ones to contact the IOT.

so i just want to say... i'm in that part of the Liber MMM training where i give up one habit per week and it's hard >____ < it's good, though, because i've been giving up bad personality habits, like fake laughing when things are awkward or when someone tells a stupid joke.

talus wrote:
But I still prefer to be on my own. At the same time I don't prefer to be on my own. I confuse myself. [stare]

I am much the same.

Hi, Talus! *waves*

Allow me to add, as an Initiate of the IOT (and otherwise not special), that IOT members have no problem with solo work. I for one was working solo for years before deciding that group magic would take me further and broke my personal taboo against joining things. I know of no members dumb enough to suggest that anyone HAS to be in any sort of group to do magic perfectly well. And most of us have our own solo stuff outside of IOT meetings.

Hobotubbie, you were asking why people join. I can't speak for anyone else, but for myself I can say that after years of working perfectly well alone I came to this conclusion, it's just mine and I don't want to push it onto anyone else:

Magic opens us up to the transcendental within our mundane life. The practice of magic teaches us that the universe is not as we have been led to believe by our culture. The non-causal effects of magic point to things going on that our culture's beliefs and expectations cannot cope with, yet these goings-on are in my opinion vitally important to anyone who wishes to take a full and active role in the universe of which we are each a part.

Our failing western society does not support our magical endeavour. As magicians we are treated to blank incomprehension, disbelief, ridicule and even persecution. We maintain our magical work against the stream of our culture and we suffer for it, albeit mildly in most cases.

Alone, we struggle to maintain our magical endeavour. Alone, our ability to integrate our magic into our cultural life (known as 'sanity') is under threat. The first step to safeguarding our sanity is to find a peer group to give us outside feedback and to support our endeavour.

Alone, we spend our efforts being divided and conquered by the sheer weight of our culture bearing down on us. Together, we create models of communal effort that multiply our effectiveness many times and may even create lasting changes in the culture, locally or otherwise. These are groovy times.

Anyway, there you go. Take it or leave it. And either is okay with me.

Kite

the Kite wrote:Allow me to add, as an Initiate of the IOT (and otherwise not special), that IOT members have no problem with solo work. I for one was working solo for years before deciding that group magic would take me further and broke my personal taboo against joining things. I know of no members dumb enough to suggest that anyone HAS to be in any sort of group to do magic perfectly well. And most of us have our own solo stuff outside of IOT meetings.

Hobotubbie, you were asking why people join. I can't speak for anyone else, but for myself I can say that after years of working perfectly well alone I came to this conclusion, it's just mine and I don't want to push it onto anyone else:

Magic opens us up to the transcendental within our mundane life. The practice of magic teaches us that the universe is not as we have been led to believe by our culture. The non-causal effects of magic point to things going on that our culture's beliefs and expectations cannot cope with, yet these goings-on are in my opinion vitally important to anyone who wishes to take a full and active role in the universe of which we are each a part.

Our failing western society does not support our magical endeavour. As magicians we are treated to blank incomprehension, disbelief, ridicule and even persecution. We maintain our magical work against the stream of our culture and we suffer for it, albeit mildly in most cases.

Alone, we struggle to maintain our magical endeavour. Alone, our ability to integrate our magic into our cultural life (known as 'sanity') is under threat. The first step to safeguarding our sanity is to find a peer group to give us outside feedback and to support our endeavour.

Alone, we spend our efforts being divided and conquered by the sheer weight of our culture bearing down on us. Together, we create models of communal effort that multiply our effectiveness many times and may even create lasting changes in the culture, locally or otherwise. These are groovy times.

Anyway, there you go. Take it or leave it. And either is okay with me.

Kite

eloquent! said better than my reasons, though i don't feel as pushed down for being a magician. you hit the nail on the head, for me at least, when you mention safeguarding our sanity by finding a peer group to give us feedback and support.

Hi

I'd like to know how often you meet your mentor in person to discuss your progress, and how you found out if there was a group near where you live prior to joining

thanks

beero wrote:Hi

I'd like to know how often you meet your mentor in person to discuss your progress, and how you found out if there was a group near where you live prior to joining

thanks

my mentor unfortunately lives a 7-hour-drive away, but he's always available to help me whenever i need, or even just to chat. we have a scheduled time every sunday to discuss my progress on the phone, but we email each other several times a week anyway to discuss this and that or if i have a pressing question (i usually get a response within a couple hours). he's pretty chill.

and i actually had no idea where the closest group was, and i guess i belong to the second closest one to me, which is fine. in my mentors time, the closest temple was LA (fyi we are both mid-westerners) and he had to fly out there to get initiated (that's why i'm not going to complain about having to drive 7 hours ).

Hi, I was wondering, are there ordeals and traps in Chaos Magic, or do you just have to do the work? I have been studying Thelema, but by the ordeals and traps that I have found already, that path would be bad for me and for other people connected to me, and it would take forever. With Chaos Magic I would learn sigilization, exploring the astral and creating thought forms which would be very interesting and a lot of fun!

Another thing, do I need to do an initiation or self-initiation for Chaos Magic? And do I need to join a group or can I learn everything on my own?