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Maybe it's too difficult, but I want to do it to someone who is very unhealthy to herself, my brother and their child. They're separated because she was ruining my brother's life. So, if I changed the way she thinks, my brother could go back to her because he still loves her, and it would be good for her and the little kid as well. I'm also worried that she may do something weird to my brother again, she's just behaving well now a days because that's how she intends to make my brother go back.
I guess I just have to give it a try..
So, would you please tell me about it, how to do it, and your experiences with changing someone's way of thinking and feeling. Thanks

Changing someone with magick or something else?

Andras wrote:Changing someone with magick or something else?

With magick, of course. But what do you mean by something else? I assumed it was clear that I requested a magickal procedure because I posted this in the spell sharing section, but since I'm just a newbie in all this maybe I really don't know what you mean

I think that would be wrong because manipulating peoples free will is bad for karma...Even if you think that this person deserves it is wrong...Try talking to them [smile]

Andras wrote:I think that would be wrong because manipulating peoples free will is bad for karma...Even if you think that this person deserves it is wrong...Try talking to them [smile]

Well, thank you anyway :3 But I don't believe in karma or free will in any way at all ever x)

You choose what to believe but using magic to control other people is wrong...and it also needs much effort and knowledge to make a spell that could change someone....good luck with that [smile]

This kind of toxic person - they really need to choose to get better for theirself. I know how hard it is, but you're not responsible for her, and if she doesn't want to get better, she won't. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I think that kind of disorder is so heavily wired into a person, it would take a hell of a lot to overcome it externally. Therapy and mindfulness meditation help, but she really needs to be the one taking the initiative.

I can't even think where to begin undoing that with magic, but I guess you could have life show her how to get better every chance it gets, or show her what will happen if she doesn't. I understand why you'd want to use magic; it's extremely hard to get through to a person like that sometimes, it's frustrating. Have a good hard think about what needs to happen for the situation to improve, and if you're still sure you want to change things. I personally don't believe karma is strictly a universal law, I think it's an opt-in, but it is entirely possible that anything you do could cause all sorts of things, if you're not specific enough, and it could get a lot worse.

If you're determined to use magic, I would say that you're probably in for a long uphill struggle, you would be best to learn to create your own spells, I think you'll need a lot of them Is there a type of magic that appeals to you?

...So, would you please tell me about it, how to do it, and your experiences with changing someone's way of thinking and feeling. Thanks

I will share with you,Crisantemos.

I think you care a lot about your brother and nephew/neice and I can understand where you are coming from with this.You can't stop your brother from loving this woman,nor should you try.But doing what you can to protect him and to be watchful over the people you care about is commendable and I don't personally agree that manipulation is wrong,not in all cases.Horses for courses and individual circumstances varying greatly and so on.

You choose what to believe but using magic to control other people is wrong...and it also needs much effort and knowledge to make a spell that could change someone....good luck with that [smile]

Andras,you are entitled to hold that view but not all of us share it and many of us do not accept Karma or it's limitations on magickal practice.

While I agree in a broader sense with much of what Vashta has said,there are ways you can help magickally,though none are perfect and it is a rough road to walk on.

I have worked magickally to protect and help family members and with my son,in particular,it's an open ended ongoing energy drain.I don't mind that,though,as I see it as a worthwhile price.I'd rather not have to engage like this,but the healthcare system has failed us repeatedly and my son is a very stubborn person[I wonder where he gets that from? Lol].He thinks the meds he needs to control his epilepsy are poisoning him,but the longer he goes without them the more risk to his life and limb.
The issues are complex and we are currently fighting battle by battle,little by little.I'll talk more about that later,if you don't mind,it's been a long day here.

Things to think on are how much energy you can invest and how often you can find time and space to recharge and keep workings going on.

I need to have a think and look at some stuff before commenting more and any further information about your sis in law,would prolly be most helpful.

I don't like workings that directly affect someone with mental health issues,but there are other ways to work,like helping her clear her mind as Vashta suggests,as this is sound and ethically less questionable than other means.

A lot to mull over.More later.

I said that because if we put us in a situation where somebody is manipulating us by using magick we would not like it because we are the one who choose our path not others

"With great power comes great responsibility"
- Francois-Marie Arouet

...because we are the one who choose our path not others

Hmm.We do,do we?

For some,paths are well lit and clearly signposted,perfumed and grassy but for others it's all jagged glass and hot coals.

Does the starving child choose to be hungry,do the trafficked sex workers choose to stay in bondage? Do the poor want to walk in poverty?

Where does free will begin and end?

Does the strength of my free will to choose impede on another person's 'weaker' will ?

Should this possibility stop me from doing what I can for me and those I care about,using all the skill sets I possess?

It's not possible to exist without impacting on others somewhere along the line.How positive an impact we have is not for us to decide alone,at all times,as if it were life would be a lot happier and simpler for most people,I believe.
My opinion,of course.

I think it depends on how you view Magick and whether it is for you, a thing apart from everyday life or whether it is an intrinsicly interwoven part of it,as it is for me.

I also take full responsibility for my actions.Personal autonomy is something I accept.It's all me,myself and I.I don't 'follow anyone's orders',it's a fair cop,it's all my fault alone.

Mea Culpa.

I still act,whenever I feel I should.I have no fear of divine retribution,whatsoever.I'll take my chances against the world anyway.

Sorry for the digression. [blush]

The starving children are starving because someone's will is not help,sex workers stay bonded because the pimp's will is to exploit them...

People who have more power choose our path of life...We all have our path but we let other people take control,be it our fault or not...

So making other people do what we want is okay if it is for our benefits?

I agree that some thing in life we can not control but the path we choose is our decision because we try to get the best with the cards that life gave us

I agree that some thing in life we can not control but the path we choose is our decision because we try to get the best with the cards that life gave us

Yep.And for some of us,this trying includes magick and magickal forms/practices that other people may not agree with.

I hope we can agree on some things and not on others.I was just stating my case for the defence,lol.

I will talk with and try to help Crisantemos with this matter because I believe I can and that it is right for me,to do so.I will do my best to be as ethical and sensible as possible and I do know that this is something that can be problematic.,so I'm thinking about it before speaking.

I

Andras wrote: So making other people do what we want is okay if it is for our benefits?

Yes, some of us think so. Nobody forces you to think its okay, or tell you to do this.. it is you that try to tell others how they should see things.

I get what you're saying, I wouldn't like it if I knew someone was trying to manipulate me by magic, and do unto others is a fairly good rule of thumb; while I don't believe karma is a universal law, I do believe people can be vengeful, and generally speaking, treating them how you'd like to be treated will lead to a return of the same, most of the time.

At the same time.. some paradigms hold that everything is magic, every action and reaction in all of everything. In a paradigm like that, it's impossible not to influence others by magic, everything you do is magic. But you needn't even go that far to see the problem, switch on your television or go to youtube and wait for the commercials, little cocktails of emotional symbolism and pressure, like tiny spells designed to sway your decision-making process; mind-control hypersigils. Well, that's a slight hyperbole, but, you know

I see that some people think that i'm trying to rub my ideas in they faces which i'm not because I was only giving my opinion on the question " Is changing someone's mind worth to work for?"

@Nahemah I agree that magick isn't something artificial it is a part of humans just like breathing but I think that using it to harm others (by controling them) is wrong...I respect you even if I disagree with you on this subject because every person chooses what is good and what is evil from his stand point

@Vashta I didn't mean karma like karma,i was thinking more like that every action has a reaction...If we harm someone then he will harm us too [smile]

Andras wrote:I see that some people think that i'm trying to rub my ideas in they faces which i'm not because I was only giving my opinion on the question " Is changing someone's mind worth to work for?"

I'm sorry if I got the wrong impression, but 'giving your opinion' in form of a question makes it look like something else.

Here's a starting idea which should not be too controversial.

There are crystals and stones which have correspondences with psychic/emotional protection and clarity/presence of mind and so on.

A simple rite of smudging with incense/herbs/ anointing with holy oils etc,can charge such a piece effectively and other ritual elements can be incorporated to strengthen further.It also can work as a direct psychic link with the person it's gifted to.

A gift of jewellery which has been charged ritually, can be a subtle way of helping and by focusing on the positive or protective qualities desired and enhancing what is already there in someone,so it's not confrontational or directly working against anything/anyone.

Just a quick thought/example.

Andras wrote:I said that because if we put us in a situation where somebody is manipulating us by using magick we would not like it because we are the one who choose our path not others

"With great power comes great responsibility"
- Francois-Marie Arouet

Actually I did not choose my path, my path chose me before I even knew magick and the occult existed. We are all manipulated in one form or another. In a sense she would be helping this person by removing insecurities or whatever the hell her problem is. It's "wrong" from your subjective perspective, perception is reality. But it's your reality, and no one else's. That's why it's "subjective." Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one but like assholes you don't need to shove it in other peoples faces repeatedly.

Nahemah wrote:Here's a starting idea which should not be too controversial.

There are crystals and stones which have correspondences with psychic/emotional protection and clarity/presence of mind and so on.

A simple rite of smudging with incense/herbs/ anointing with holy oils etc,can charge such a piece effectively and other ritual elements can be incorporated to strengthen further.It also can work as a direct psychic link with the person it's gifted to.

A gift of jewellery which has been charged ritually, can be a subtle way of helping and by focusing on the positive or protective qualities desired and enhancing what is already there in someone,so it's not confrontational or directly working against anything/anyone.

Just a quick thought/example.

Now this is a better idea then manipulating others will

If I may add:

I have been working with gemstones and they really work.I suggest working with:Blue Ahat,Lapis Lazuli,Huwelit.Aquamarin because I know they work from my experience...

Working with these gems can expand mental potential, clear the mind, increase the ability to focus, and help heal certain mental imbalances.

It is a good way to help someone if you don't want them to now that you are helping them [smile]

Serenitydawn wrote:

Andras wrote:I said that because if we put us in a situation where somebody is manipulating us by using magick we would not like it because we are the one who choose our path not others

"With great power comes great responsibility"
- Francois-Marie Arouet

Actually I did not choose my path, my path chose me before I even knew magick and the occult existed. We are all manipulated in one form or another. In a sense she would be helping this person by removing insecurities or whatever the hell her problem is. It's "wrong" from your subjective perspective, perception is reality. But it's your reality, and no one else's. That's why it's "subjective." Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one but like assholes you don't need to shove it in other peoples faces repeatedly.

So you would not mind if someone was manipulating you to do something you don't want....There are better ways to help someone then manipulating there will...

Why are you people so sensitive about this...I just said that I don't think manipulation is a long term cure and that we choose our path [confused]

Not everybody react the same way to gemstones though. Some have very different or even opposite reactions of what is considered normal, so this isn't any 'safer'.. also I don't see how it isn't considered manipulation.

In most cases they work like they should work...in most cases [grin]

Now when you say it like that it really is manipulation [crazy]

Maybe someone can explain this to us? [smile]

This is when knowing the person you are involved with helps.

Silver/Gold/Metal pendants can be charged,id bracelets,wooden surfer beads,coral...and so on.

An item for the mantel piece,if they like fripperies,even.It dosen't need to be a gemstone,particularly and the item can be tailored to fit individual likes and preferences.

It just needs to be placed or kept/displayed near to them.

The Hand of Fatima is a very well known protective item often worn as jewellery,to ward off the evil eye.This is a less powerful or intense adaptation and personalised version of similar ilk,really.

The tweaking lies in how and what it is charged with.

Maybe someone can explain this to us? [smile]

Not me.I'm going to post in regard to the OP's request from here on.

Crisantemos has been made aware of potential problems and it is for them to decide if they want to take advice or not.I've stated why I'm helping and why I think I should.Others have had their say too.Fair enough.

We are straying too far off topic now.

Morality discussions deserve their own thread,I think.

This tends to happen with certain requests for help.People have many and varied views on what is right and wrong and that is ok,for the most part,but this is a request for help not a do you think I should? Question.

With that in mind,I'm not going to defend my position anymore.

Crisantemos,you are already helping by accepting that your brother has strong feelings towards this woman.Acknowledging that is important.It can be so easy as a concerned family member to blame a partner and hate on them,but it often works against you to react overly much,as it can push the family member closer to that person instead of anything else and make them suspicious of your motives in future.

Family is hard,sometimes.

I want it to be clear that I know what I do and think, and what I don't. Magick is the tip of an intense and significant journey (and many stops) in my life (but also a base in the sense that it's a necessity). I don't need you to believe in me, but I really appreciate your trust, help and understanding. I'll simply pass the moral discussion.
I'll add that when I mentioned thoughts and feelings in the first post, I meant an existential predisposition: a feeling about reality could be enough. I know she is afraid of changes, unpredictability, and doesn't know how to deal with being focused on different things because of space and time. In short, she wants to control everything but contradicts her wishes often, like most of people, but so intensely. Simple, but it provokes such problems.
If it could be useful in any way, I'll let you now that I have made a few sigils, talismans made out of sigils, and also developed my own ritual and practiced it only twice. I believe that effectiveness depends on taking the right inner steps, and it has proved true to me. But I still don't trust myself to do anything, I'm afraid of making mistakes, I want experience first. That's why I asked for other people's experience, maybe that way I won't have to try changing a dog's mind or something XDD And maybe it's sooooooooo difficult that it'd be better to try something else - but the gems thing. I'd have to figure out how to place the object near to her. She lives by herself and the kid, my family doesn't want me to go there, not even to accompany my brother there (also because she has flirted with me, she likes to receive attention). And if I go on my own in secret, she might tell them anyway and probably invent something, so it would be useless, I could even make it worse and would have so much more to handle with. If we think that the effects of the gem could prevent my visit to cause problems, maybe they won't, they might be good enough too late. I don't know, it's just so unpractical in this case. That's why I'm not interested.
I want to do it from home. I could invent something. I know that every action, even if it makes good, can carry a bad thing. But being specific could prevent the bad things that I don't want to happen, from happening. Maybe the way I see how the mind is could play a part in it, gladly. You know, now that I think of it, maybe I'm just being insecure. But I understand why, there's so much in stake. I really need someone else's experience, and not just one person's. In this case, I want to repeat what someone else did. That way I can trust enough to believe in what I do. I know by experience that believing is powerful when you believe strongly ('belief' as in Kierkegaard's leap of faith), but I'm just blocked here.