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After seeing multiple postings about advice on" how one could harm someone who harmed them" how to curse someone/protection spell", Ive decided to just instead of respond make a post about this my views and experiences, remember one is useless without the other.

The first thing that should be recognized is that "The Ancients/ Gods and Godessess of Old/and even Energies and Ancient Thought Forms do not respect a pity party or a needy human being looking for a mommy and daddy. Do a lot of them desire worship? Absolutely! Many of these entities had strong cults and religions based on them and very much appreciate and desire this recognition and worship that they have not recived in decades, maybe centuries, what ever it may be.

Second this worth taking notice of is the fact that most of us seeking out revenge/retribution/vengence are going to be making the mistake of calling on a God/ess of War/retribution etc (you get the point) or just a negative energy or destructive force of the universe what ever. This is where it gets very important to research and think. These entities ALL OF THEM are not used to the infantile victim and thats a fact my friends. Our ancestors who worshipped them did NOT play the victim card and were not weak. You wanna call on Ares Athena (Zeues especially) etc in black makeup and a robe and ask that they fight a battle for you(the names are just an example do not get sidetracked). These entities will recieve you well at first but damn it dont you forget these were the patron or assisting entities of soldiers warriors mercenaries and generals they will disrespect you and spit in your face for making such demands or requests. However go and fight your own battles after asking for their guidence and you will find yourself forever in favor of these entities and more than likely successful on your quest (if repeated over and over again without any action on your part). In other words trade in your ceremonial garb (after recievining guidence through meditation/ cermony etc) for a battle ready suit of armour and sword, theoretically speaking of course.

Third, the three fold law, It will work with you not against you. It is not Wiccan, I mean it is but do not let that fool you or stray you away from the belief in it or your in a world of hurt. Ponder/Meditate/Hold Ceremony whatever you feel is needed to do to decide, on your own or with the help of whatever entity energy you are calling on what is equal to three times the damage the enemy has caused you. Be it property damage, physical damage, financial attack whatever. One big attack that is equal to three times the pain and suffering one has caused you or three smaller sepreate attacks that each are equivalent to what attack was done to you, Then strike. The powers of the univers whatever you want to call them will do this on their own If you do not take action or ask for it to be done. this however finds you in no favor with the Gods(this word is what im calling it). Now hurt this individual anymore than the threefold law allows and you are now in disfavor with the Gods and you will feel the wrath as if you were never attacked in the first place.

Real life example:
Individual was hurt then the individual attacked the person who wronged them on three seperate occasions. Each attack was very risky and went down perfectly despite the risks and the person was never even confronted the Gods saw to it that the person laid down and took it. Timke went by and the person became set on a fourth attack. During the exact time that these thoughts were going on the person crashed a car.
This is a real story and an example of what can happen when someone gets drunk off of their own success. Everyone including the original attacker IS OF THE EARTH/UNIVERSE/GODDESS WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT and an unjust act against him or her will be punished just like one against you.

KEY POINTS:
1. If you sit back he or she will get theirs from the ENERGY itself. It might not be immediate and it might not be all at once but it will occur you just have no say.
2. If you take action, calculated and guided action, yourself you can determine when/where/how it will occur
3. you are not a victim you are seeking revenge against someone who underestimated you so come to the spell book/god/ess/energy whatever in that manner
4. Respect the threefold law you can obtain revenge yourself without any harm done to you if you do. do not respect the law or get confused thinking that this is solely byour power and the universe has no say and pay.

As a Wise Man Once Said:
"THE TRUTH IS LIKE A LION, YOU DON'T NEED TO DEFEND IT, SET IT FREE AND IT DEFENDS ITSELF.

Hello Oldspirit,

Your post was long and covered a number of issues, but, they basically fall into two sections: relations to the gods and the ethical question of revenge.

I'm going to primarily address the first but want to comment briefly on the second. This is a serious issue. Speaking personally, as a general rule I try and let most things go and only on occasion will I even speak-up and voice by thoughts in an aggressive manner in a situation. To take active, magically revenge would take a lot. There are situations where I believe it is necessary.

Some people are like the Quakers who say “an eye for an eye leaves two eyes blind” and that is nice. But, they sleep secure in their beds because of the police and military who use the violence they abhor to protect them and (while they won't admit it) on whom they look down upon as morally inferior. It is not different in other realms.

So, bottom line; it requires serious and sober reflection and justification before such action.

Now the first section: you wrote this long piece about how the gods do not want to be guests at our “pity parties” and so forth. Sorry, but, you are wrong. You are writing what you expect and feel but that is not what the textual evidence of antiquity supports, from any culture.

Exhibit A: Book 1 of the Illiad.

A priest of the far-shooter Apollo, lord of Tenedos and the Sacred Isles, goes the Commander of men Agamemnon to ransom his daughter. The high marshal of the Achaeans (all of flowing hair) rebuffs him harshly. The priests walks along the beach and prayers to the holder of the silver bow to bring a plague on the Danaans to avenge him. Apollo hears and responds. He did not lecture him soberly about the Fates or tell him to forgive. He acts to defend his devotee.

The great runner Achilles because of this action by Agamemnon comes into conflict with him. The result is a pissing contest over a female Achilles looses and famously sulks in his tent. He goes to the ocean to his mother the goddess Thetis and has a real pity party complete with tears and whining about a girl. Does she tell him this is unmanly? No, she acts.

My time is short this morning but there are other examples I want to add. I have to leave this for now but the legends of India also do not support Oldsprits claims.

Asurendra wrote:Hello Oldspirit,

Your post was long and covered a number of issues, but, they basically fall into two sections: relations to the gods and the ethical question of revenge.

I'm going to primarily address the first but want to comment briefly on the second. This is a serious issue. Speaking personally, as a general rule I try and let most things go and only on occasion will I even speak-up and voice by thoughts in an aggressive manner in a situation. To take active, magically revenge would take a lot. There are situations where I believe it is necessary.

Some people are like the Quakers who say “an eye for an eye leaves two eyes blind” and that is nice. But, they sleep secure in their beds because of the police and military who use the violence they abhor to protect them and (while they won't admit it) on whom they look down upon as morally inferior. It is not different in other realms.

So, bottom line; it requires serious and sober reflection and justification before such action.

Now the first section: you wrote this long piece about how the gods do not want to be guests at our “pity parties” and so forth. Sorry, but, you are wrong. You are writing what you expect and feel but that is not what the textual evidence of antiquity supports, from any culture.

Exhibit A: Book 1 of the Illiad.

A priest of the far-shooter Apollo, lord of Tenedos and the Sacred Isles, goes the Commander of men Agamemnon to ransom his daughter. The high marshal of the Achaeans (all of flowing hair) rebuffs him harshly. The priests walks along the beach and prayers to the holder of the silver bow to bring a plague on the Danaans to avenge him. Apollo hears and responds. He did not lecture him soberly about the Fates or tell him to forgive. He acts to defend his devotee.

The great runner Achilles because of this action by Agamemnon comes into conflict with him. The result is a pissing contest over a female Achilles looses and famously sulks in his tent. He goes to the ocean to his mother the goddess Thetis and has a real pity party complete with tears and whining about a girl. Does she tell him this is unmanly? No, she acts.

My time is short this morning but there are other examples I want to add. I have to leave this for now but the legends of India also do not support Oldsprits claims.

We disagree on a lot here.
One thing I do want to be clear on as its the only thing i think you might have interpereted wrong or I did not write clearly enough is that I am not reccomending to "take active, magically revenge " I am not sure if that is what you understood or not.In fact I am reccomending not to use magic as a tool for revenge.

I understand your position clearly. I simply disagree with it on an ethical and philosophical level. If you choose to follow thisbin your lide and that is your conscience then I think it is great. Afterall, you will have people like myself to defend you when you run out of cheeks to turn.

That is more subjective, but, your other claims are not. Outside of the New Testament (and maybe some Buddhist sutras but legends may contradict them) you will not find many gods supporting your claim. And as we know, the main ne who does is a hypocrite.

I am at work and cannot go into detail.

The norse gods won't be much of a help unless you take action first.
Tor likes a good fight, but hate cheating and magic.

If you are going into a fight, ask Tor to cover your back so that your enemy don't use magick or tricks to win.

But asking Tor for protection towards magick in your daily life would be fairly meaningless.

Freja might be more generous then the others and will help any coupe trying to get kids. Although the requirement is of course that the parents have sex. She can help nurture the seed, but you have to plant it.

Asurendra wrote:I understand your position clearly. I simply disagree with it on an ethical and philosophical level. If you choose to follow thisbin your lide and that is your conscience then I think it is great. Afterall, you will have people like myself to defend you when you run out of cheeks to turn.

That is more subjective, but, your other claims are not. Outside of the New Testament (and maybe some Buddhist sutras but legends may contradict them) you will not find many gods supporting your claim. And as we know, the main ne who does is a hypocrite.

I am at work and cannot go into detail.

Turn my other cheek. wow, no you do not understand my position clearly. The only problem is I dont know how to make this more clear. My point was definetly the exact opposite of turning the other cheek though. I merely said "taking no action is an option though it will leave you in disfavor with the gods". I dont think you understand what i wrote maybe.

I am always for people doing what they are 'moved' to do,... without moral judgment,... for the most part (such statements can often turn around and bite me).

I say this because good/bad, right/wrong we learn from it and so progress down our path. At some point however you may start to check yourself. This may be voluntary or involuntary. Where you don't take (re)action, or you don't come back with a sharp comment. Many times in my life this has happened and I have been thankful. I may have either kept a friend who I could have lost or seen the situation from a different point of view later.

All I'm saying is quite often there is unseen benefit from snubbing the revenge urge. And its not about turning the other cheek or being s puss.

Hello again OldSpirit,

You're writing is advocating pacifism. You mention the Three-fold Law. The Three-fold Law is that whatever you send out will return to you three-fold. So, if you attack for whatever reason or use magical violence for whatever reason (even to defend yourself) then that will fall back on you three-fold. You also say that revenge should left to the universe to resolve instead of taking action:

“The powers of the universe whatever you want to call them will do this on their own If you do not take action or ask for it to be done.”

“As a Wise Man Once Said:
"THE TRUTH IS LIKE A LION, YOU DON'T NEED TO DEFEND IT, SET IT FREE AND IT DEFENDS ITSELF.”

These statements and the Three-fold Law are saying 'turn the other cheek.' I'm critical of that philosophically but if this is what your conscience dictates to you then by all means follow it and I think that's great.

Yes, there are self-contradictory statements in your posts. Perhaps there is a language barrier or they could be organized differently but most of them advocate, basically, turning the other cheek. Please clarify for us directly: do you advocate under some circumstances acts of magical revenge or revenge in general?

When you write the following, "The Ancients/ Gods and Godessess of Old/and even Energies and Ancient Thought Forms do not respect a pity party or a needy human being looking for a mommy and daddy” you're just wrong on this point. They will not "spit in the face" of devotees who ask them to act against others for them. This idea is not supported by textual evidence. The quote from the Illiad shows that. If someone is a true devotee of these entities, they may act to defend them.

Exhibit B: India: Banasura

There are two distinct versions of this tale and the one I am giving is the Vaishnava (one who worships Lord Vishnu and the Supreme Lord). Banasura was the most powerful Asura of his generation is the era when Vishnu was on earth in his Krishna avatar. He was also a great devotee of Lord Shiva who granted him invincibility. Banasura wanted to fight Krishna and it created a conflict between Lords Shiva & Vishnu. In one version, Lord Shiva, Lord Ganesha & Lord Muruga with the ganas joined Banasura to fight against Krishna. This shows how such powerful beings will act to support their devotees even in a desire for revenge.

Exhibit C: The Old Testament

Jesus' mean dad was willing to break his own laws (they did not commit a capital crime & there were not 2 witnesses to warn them) and murder children who annoyed his prophet. This is revenge at it's most petty.

2 Kings 2:23-25

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria

Bible Bonus Track:

When Jesus was crucified by the Romans he prayed that his father would forgive them. This is supposed to be the Christian way but it is so impossible event he holiest of saints of that first generaiton do not follow it. In the very Temple of Heaven the souls of the martyerd saints are kept beneath god's altar in the Book of Revelations. What does these ideal Christians pray for? “O Father, forgive those upon the earth?” NOPE! BLOOD! REVENGE!

Revelations 6:9

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

For anyone thinking otherwise, my writing nor my philosophy in any way advocates pacifism or turning the other cheek.

Do you approve of using magic for revenge?

Do you believe that higher entitites approve of this and will assist such practices?

I know that was in no way directed at me, but believe answering those for myself would make for a good first post in the thread so bear with.

My personal opinion is that the answer to both those questions is 'yes'.

I do not believe in the law of threefold return, or karma as it is espoused. I do however, believe in a magickal cause and effect, and that introducing destructive elements OR harmonious elements could greatly affect the end outcome in ways that are not immediately apparent. A good occultist takes this into account before any action is carried through. I believe that this in a way is aligned with Chaos Theory, and can be described as such. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

I think that in some cases, malefica in general is a necessity to right a wrong that has occurred. In these necessary cases, not performing the malefica would in fact, be the wrong thing to do and cause greater problems down the line by not addressing a problematic element that will continue to cause problems for the practitioner. Take note of the word necessary. This is down to the judgement not only of the practitioner, but also the spirits and gods/goddesses if they work with them and are making use of their power in their act of malefica.

Higher entities either approve or disprove based on their own agenda, about alot of things. This can be not only vary between entities but also what current goal they have in mind. Not every entity has a human discernible goal or sphere. Some are more changeable than others. If it aligns with their goals and will bring them to fruition, or if they care about the practitioner, they will likely assist.

I believe this is actually a very complex question, and has a highly variable set of answers based on a wide range of conditions, but hopefully that gives some idea as to where my thought process lies on it.