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I assume the more experienced practitioners would use some form of divination to see the potential outcomes of a particular ritual. Where, in your opinions, does your sense of morality enter into ritual practices. Do you believe 'do what thou will shall be the whole of the law' or perhaps you make your motions based on the perception that a particular deity moves you to do so and they know best for you/you serve them unconditionally?

Also is there any examples you have of practices that, you feel, have had cyclic effects that have come back around and metaphorically bitten you in the rear? I am interested in causality at the moment? especially where it relates to ritual practices.

Well, I personally believe that morality and ethics should stay at the doorstep ones one enters the ritual or the practice ground. Because I guess you have already decided based on your ethics and all external factors (like benefits, potential consequences, etc.) if what you are going to perform is worth the risk. Therefore, the role morality plays is on the table of decision, not performance (imho). So if you are going to do a magick action you should decide beforehand of it is conform to your actions and if you can bear the consequences. Every deed means taking the responisbility of its consequences, be it driving a car or calling upon some gods or demons.

Also is there any examples you have of practices that, you feel, have had cyclic effects that have come back around and metaphorically bitten you in the rear? I am interested in causality at the moment? especially where it relates to ritual practices.

I guess my answer here may be just based on my personal paradigm:
I don't see any causality between "bad action = bad response" simply of the lack of good and evil in an objective matter. An action simply triggers a response. But that includes also that this response can come on any level same as our environment is present on all levels at the same time, therefore a reaction can come on every of those levels.

I will use a picture: Throwing a stone into water will most likely cause a very obvious response in form of water waves. But that is only one level of response. You have to see also the air waves it produces, the splashes while colliding with the water, the things it may hit while sinking to the bottom, the temporary change in water current, etc.

You see, one action can trigger many response levels which may even result in whole chains of responses. As time also plays a very relative faktor in magick the response might occur right away when you form the will in thoughts or years after the performance, depending on the circumstances I guess

Hope that helpes.
Ramscha

And that stone changes the foundation of the body of water forever.

Well, I personally believe that morality and ethics should stay at the doorstep ones one enters the ritual or the practice ground. Because I guess you have already decided based on your ethics and all external factors (like benefits, potential consequences, etc.) if what you are going to perform is worth the risk. Therefore, the role morality plays is on the table of decision, not performance (imho). So if you are going to do a magick action you should decide beforehand of it is conform to your actions and if you can bear the consequences. Every deed means taking the responisbility of its consequences, be it driving a car or calling upon some gods or demons

This. Totally this.

If I may, I'd like to take the original question another step.

What is the repercussion to the caster of a curse? I mean a flat out evil eye style curse. Some curses can and do result in the subject dying. I'm not asking if anybody here has done so, but what does the body present know of the back side of such an action? It doesn't strike me as an action one walks away from without some load. On the other hand, if the cursed took deeply from the curser in the past (prompting the curse) might the price be pre-paid?

I've known and known of people who went more than a little crazy who I believe were working some bad Will. It is my opinion that they brought their nutty fruit cake with them to the party. They didn't "go crazy", they were already there. Conversely I may be wrong about the people I am thinking of, the end may have been the price of their actions.

William Seabrook wrote a bit about this in the late '40s. I think the book was "Witchcraft: it's power in the world today" or a close title to that. Great work, but like all writing it comes only from the perspective of the writer. I'd like to hear more perspectives.

Opinions or experiences?

What is the repercussion to the caster of a curse? I mean a flat out evil eye style curse. Some curses can and do result in the subject dying. I'm not asking if anybody here has done so, but what does the body present know of the back side of such an action? It doesn't strike me as an action one walks away from without some load. On the other hand, if the cursed took deeply from the curser in the past (prompting the curse) might the price be pre-paid?

I'm going to start off with some terminology. Hopefully, that'll make this conversation flow a little easier.

An evil eye style curse really isn't that bad. It's more of an unintentional hex. Giving the evil eye usually comes from a place of envy. Most people that do are hurt or damaged and don't realize they even do it. Sometimes, all it takes is bringing it to the persons attention that they need a little more self control in their life. Other times, people carry charms to protect against getting it and/or sending it.

But, that's not to say that the Evil Eye doesn't also go into the extreme of a full blown curse. That takes work. That takes either a serious practitioner who has evolved that as part of their craft or crazy mad inherent skills that need to be trained. Either way - it's rare that the evil eye takes on that extreme.

Hexing someone is causing a minor amount of harm or damage.

Cursing is seriously messing with someone's life - to the point of taking it, sometimes.

That type of cursing has the power to destroy the caster, mentally and/or physically, if they're not careful or if they cast in an uncontrolled manner.

Harming another living being to that extent always has repercussions. Being hurt or harmed to the extent that a curse is born can sometimes be all the harm that comes and the curse can have a healing affect. As always, people have to live with their actions - whether they be in the physical or the spiritual.

Sometimes, it's justice. Other times it's vengeance. Sometimes vengeance is justice in a world where you do not find justice within the legal system.

And sometimes, just sometimes, you find out decades later that a curse you did worked better than you ever thought it would and you feel pretty damn good about it. I cannot and will not speak for all witches. I speak only for myself. I have thrown my fair share of hexes in my time but very few actual curses. I have no remorse for those I have cursed.

It's said amongst witches that unless you would physically assault or kill a person then it is not worth the energy it takes to throw a curse. I look dreadful in prison orange.

Those that have the ability have the responsibility to use that ability. Hopefully, wisely, but we all know that in the midst of the extreme emotion that it takes to birth a curse - wisdom is not usually a top priority.

My first curse was thrown on accident. It was in the middle of the worst emotional upheaval in my life at that current time. I was hurt. I was betrayed. I was apoplectic. I was young enough (18) and untrained and I did not know what I did to make me feel better - but much better about the situation I felt. All of that pain goes into the birthing of a curse. It removes it from the witch (or anyone with that ability and it's more common than people may think.) Removing that level of pain, forming it and casting it onto another (usually the person that harmed you) in a formed fashion is how a curse is made. Even then, depending on the level of pain that is being removed - a witch can remove too much of herself and destroy herself in the process. Sometimes, all that's left is rock bottom and bare bones to rebuild yourself upon. And sometimes, that's the best thing that can happen to a person. If their pathway is shamanic in nature - it's also necessary.

Anyone who knows me from forums knows damn well that I'm not all peace and love and light. They also know that I do care and have deep compassion for others. Especially those that are lost or seeking.

I do not regret the few curses that I've thrown. An eye for an eye and all that. Each one was in direct proportion to what caused that desire to harm in the first place. I do know other witches that have regretted throwing curses. I know of other witches that regret not doing worse (and one specifically that regrets not doing worse simply because she was too young to know 'worse' at that time'.) I also know of other witches (one in particular) who made following up on a curse her life's mission. After what was done to her and how poorly it was handled afterwards - if it were me, I may have turned out the same way. My heart bleeds for the pain she was put through. It bleeds for the pain she's still in almost 30 years later. It's not my place to interfere but I have great respect for her and what she's made of herself in spite of (or because of - who knows) what happened to her when she was around the same age as I.

I have been going through many life-changing things recently. I was, not long ago, in a position to throw what would've been my most powerful and damaging curse to date. This is going to sound so cheesy and cliche but it's true. The only thing that stopped me was love. There was a night where the only thing that brought me back from the edge of birthing a curse was the love of my mom's little dog. He was totally spazzed out and stressed and not loving the energy in the room. He jumped on me with his little eyes bugging out and started licking my face. Instead of pushing him away I let his love wash over me and loved him in return. I scratched his little head and hugged him and apologized for scaring him. Then I a called a friend who sat me down and ripped me a new ass right smack in the middle of my forehead while he proceeded to lecture me and remind me of what was at stake, what I could easily turn into in that state and put things in perspective for me. The thought of losing that which I Love because of what I would've become was too much.

Had I thrown this last curse and lost that which I LOVE - I don't want to imagine what I would've become.

Rose Red, Have you read the book I mentioned in my last post?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft ... orld_Today

Seabrook wasn't strictly speaking an occultist, but he was friendly with Crowley and knew Gurdjief (sp?) and travelled the world learning about the occult. He lived in Haiti for a couple of years (earll '20s) and wrote some of the earliest credible info about Voodoo written in English (Magical Island came from that trip). He also spent years in West and Central Africa learning about their magickal culture (I have that book but can't remember the title at the moment and haven't read it yet.) His take on spell casting (with particular focus on the dark side) is sceptical but well observed and well articulated. He saw a lot, examined it closely and reports well. While he chocks off a lot to hypochondria on the part of the victims, he is clear that there is much he can't explain away. Anyway, it is an interesting book and not too long. I got my copy off ebay for cheap. I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say about it.

No, I haven't read it. I'm knee deep in 3 books at the moment. I don't know if I'll remember to get around to it or not. I'm also extremely busy in real life at the moment. I don't know when I'll have time to read what I've already committed to.

Is that the type of information that you were looking for when you asked about curses?

RoseRed wrote: Is that the type of information that you were looking for when you asked about curses?

Sort of, but not entirely.

One thing you said that really resonated is that you shouldn't curse someone who you wouldn't physically attack. The violence analogy is, I think, appropriate. A curse is violence, just absent physical contact. It's said that violence isn't the answer, until it is.

To follow that analogy... I understand the reality of and consequences of violence. I've fought. Hurt people, been hurt. Lost people who mattered to me to violence. I know that getting into a fight because you can is stupid while avoiding one because you can is the way to go. You never know how many people are in a fight until it's over. People get killed and people go to jail. This is tangible. I have a much lesser understanding of magical violence. If someone casts a curse, and under estimates their opponent, or misses their shot, what really happens? Stitches in the ER? Arrest warrants? Angry buddies of the other guy? Get really nuts and bolts, if you will.

I'm not brewing a curse. I can envision situations where it may be appropriate, but at the moment I can't see any where more mundane methods would not be as good (and better in that I understand them.) Still, the question comes up and I see an opportunity to ask someone who knows what I do not.