OccultForum.org

Here's some tinfoil hat madness that I conjured up a few months ago, but that I've contemplated since I was a young teenager. I wasn't exactly sure where to post this, but I felt that if anyone would consider the possibility, it would be my fellow Chaotes, for if "Nothing is True; Everything is Permitted." Anyway, I was hoping you guys had some ideas you could contribute, even if it means completely disproving what I've written here.

Possibly the best connection to be made between the Occult and Science can be found in Quantum Physics. Take for instance the Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, which holds that "quantum mechanics does not yield a description of an objective reality but deals only with probabilities of observing, or measuring, various aspects of energy quanta, entities that fit neither the classical idea of particles nor the classical idea of waves. The act of measurement causes the set of probabilities to immediately and randomly assume only one of the possible values. This feature of mathematics is known as wavefunction collapse." *

I've often contemplated the significance of this interpretation, and have long thought that the goal of Magick was to control the collapsing of probabilities such that subjective reality conforms to your Will. This is a bit of a stretch, but nonetheless interesting.

Other theories relating to Quantum Mechanics also promote this idea. Quantum Superposition for instance, "is a fundamental principle of quantum mechanics that holds a physical system exists partly in all its particular theoretically possible states simultaneously; but when measured or observed, it gives a result corresponding to only one of the possible configurations (as described in interpretation of quantum mechanics)." †

Again, the idea is to control the collapsing of probabilities such the result corresponds to that state or configuration you desire.

To top it all off you have Quantum Entanglement: "Measurements of physical properties such as position, momentum, spin, polarization, etc. performed on entangled particles are found to be appropriately correlated. .. ..Because of the nature of quantum measurement, however, this behavior gives rise to effects that can appear paradoxical: any measurement of a property of a particle can be seen as acting on that particle (e.g. by collapsing a number of superimposed states); and in the case of entangled particles, such action must be on the entangled system as a whole." ‡

This gives rise to the idea that one particle's physical properties correlate to that of another particle, despite their not being in close proximity (even at great distances from one another they seemingly interact, thus giving rise to the perception of information surpassing the speed of light.)

The only real issue with these ideas is the fact that Quantum Mechanics deal with the small scale, microcosmic universe (entities at the quantum level, measuring in Planck lengths), meaning that they do not translate well to the large scale, macrocosmic universe we think of as being, well, the universe. haha...

Still in all it's just food for thought. Strange action at a distance, collapsing quantum probabilities, effects of the observer on reality, etc., etc. are all very interesting, especially when put into the context of the Occult. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the Law. Love under Will." § ‖

Edit: An article forwarded to me in reply to this post suggests that Quantum Mechanics could have a greater impact on the macrocosmic universe than was previously assumed. If indeed "space-time is a quantum system just like matter is," ¶ then the theories I've proposed could begin to describe the experiences of shamans, mystics, occultists, philosophers, etc., dating back millennia.

* - Copenhagen Interpretation - Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_interpretation

† - Quantum Superposition - Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_superposition

‡ - Quantum Entanglement - Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

§ - Magick In Theory and Practice - Hermetic Library
http://hermetic.com/93beast.fea.st/file ... 0MiTaP.pdf

‖ - The Book of the Law - Ra Hoor Khuit
http://www.rahoorkhuit.net/library/libe ... b_0220.pdf

¶ - Do We Live In A 2D Hologram? - Fermilab
http://www.fnal.gov/pub/presspass/press ... 40826.html

The quantum world is a lot of fun.

However, its hard to say what it will teach us beyond being another example of an already known principal.

"As above, so below"

While the quantum world is incredibly small and the reality of this world doesn't necesarrily scale well. If you go to the opposite extreme there are more parallels.

Its also evidence to the connected nature of the world around us, which is another principal of magick in my opinion.

More evidence to empower us further.

Keep thinkin kid! [grin2]

In my opinion, magic is a complete opposite of science (from the perspective of Chaos Magic).

The apparent Order was born from Chaos.
In fact, everything was born from Chaos.

Order has its own "laws", but they aren't inevitable.
Nothing is impossible - there are only levels of possibility.

Quantum physics is only a branch of physics that began to understand the "superiority" of magic.

Quantum Physics is very hard topic [eg] . I tried to analize it but I don't have enough knowledge to dwell in to it. But surely I can say that my feelings after reading through loots of books(occult and science) are that quantum world is perfect things to explain magic [thumbup] . But I am quiet sure too that this part of science is in early stages and as long as it will be in this stage it won't even try to mix topics. How long will we wait for it to develop enough I can not even imagine.

Other than that occult IS science.

Praise the Sun [cool]

Maya The Generator wrote:Quantum Physics is very hard topic . I tried to analize it but I don't have enough knowledge to dwell in to it.

Same here.

Maya The Generator wrote:quantum world is perfect things to explain magic .

I think magic can perfectly explain science. [eg]

Maya The Generator wrote:Other than that occult IS science.

So I think we are on the same side on this one.

Quantum physics, yes. Or it could be that humans are special, and effective magicks comes from the authority given to us by Mama Chaos to command spirit beings and elementals and daemons and whathaveyou. Also, no one really talks about hyperspace physics. Peter Carroll does, but I think his current model could use some revision.

Or maybe magick is just science that science hasn't figured out yet. I really believe at the moment that a lot of occult knowledge in the past had to do with things like psychology, medicine, art, writing, math and architecture. I mean, "normal" schools and universities teach specialized forms of knowledge for a fee where upon mastering your chosen field you are given a degree in a formal ceremony or ritual complete with robes and funny hats and stuff. Bachelor, Master, Professor = Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, Master Mason = Neophyte, Initiate, Adept, etc...

Occultists and magicians are rogue mavericks on the cutting edge of knowledge and experience. We are freethinking skeptics that also paradoxically embrace outright fictional concepts as tools to enhance our growth and learning. Personally, I'm more concerned with "does it work?" rather than "how does it work?". Although, at this point, I already have a pretty good idea of what works for me and even have several models for the "how". What I think maybe needs to be asked at this point is "Why?"

ultimafool wrote:Quantum physics, yes. Or it could be that humans are special, and effective magicks comes from the authority given to us by Mama Chaos to command spirit beings and elementals and daemons and whathaveyou. Also, no one really talks about hyperspace physics. Peter Carroll does, but I think his current model could use some revision.

Or maybe magick is just science that science hasn't figured out yet. I really believe at the moment that a lot of occult knowledge in the past had to do with things like psychology, medicine, art, writing, math and architecture. I mean, "normal" schools and universities teach specialized forms of knowledge for a fee where upon mastering your chosen field you are given a degree in a formal ceremony or ritual complete with robes and funny hats and stuff. Bachelor, Master, Professor = Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, Master Mason = Neophyte, Initiate, Adept, etc...

Occultists and magicians are rogue mavericks on the cutting edge of knowledge and experience. We are freethinking skeptics that also paradoxically embrace outright fictional concepts as tools to enhance our growth and learning. Personally, I'm more concerned with "does it work?" rather than "how does it work?". Although, at this point, I already have a pretty good idea of what works for me and even have several models for the "how". What I think maybe needs to be asked at this point is "Why?"

Wonderful post, ultimafool!

So, I guess, you're also a devoted chaote, right?

Haqim wrote: Wonderful post, ultimafool!

Thanks! [happyface]

Haqim wrote: So, I guess, you're also a devoted chaote, right?

The long answer...

I've been thinking about this off and on for a while now. When I first began formally practicing magicks, I called myself a chaos magician, and I guess I still do identify with the core ethos of chaos. I love the fact that chaos has distilled the essence of magick down in a certain sense and stripped the body away to reveal the underlying mechanics/structure. But if we identify chaos with syncretism, then most systems of magick could be considered chaotic.

For example, the Golden Dawn incorporates Egyptian and Greek and Jewish magick with a pinch of Hindu and Buddhism followed by a dessert of Enochian magick all served up on a checkerboard tablecloth courtesy of Freemasonry. I tend to think of chaos magick as the jeet kune do of magick. Magick is but one aspect of myself that is a form of expression and the self is constantly changing. To define (de-infinite) something is to use the sword of reason and separate this from that. But no one is an island. If all one uses is the sword then one is bound to cut the self up into tiny meaningless bits. In fact, understanding our connection to all things is key to great magick.

The moment we define something, it becomes crystalized and dead. I see chaos magick as constantly mutating, evolving, living thing. We are living things. Magick IS life. Magick is any willed act. Being mindful and in the moment reveals the hidden magick buried within the seemingly mundane. It's like Yeshua said, "The kingdom of god is within you." and "Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

Last quote. From Bruce Lee (the kung fu Jesus) said, "If people say Jeet Kune Do is different from "this" or "that", then let the name of Jeet Kune Do be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please don't fuss over it."

In short... yes. [tongue2]

Maybe this is the normal evolution of one's (perspective of) magic as a chaote.

I totally understand your answer, because I'm on the same path - I've experienced the same changes.

Have you ever studied the model called "subjective reality"?
Now that was my last groundbreaking experience on the Majestic Road of the Psychonaut (sounds epic, right?). XP

Haqim wrote:Maybe this is the normal evolution of one's (perspective of) magic as a chaote.

Indeed! It seems that if we take the concept to its logical extreme then we are left with but one inevitable answer. The term "chaos" itself is self-limiting and must be discarded. At the very least, it should be remembered that it is only a name. The menu is not the meal. Chaos magick is like esoteric existentialism seems like western Taoism or Zen maybe.

Haqim wrote:Have you ever studied the model called "subjective reality"?
Now that was my last groundbreaking experience on the Majestic Road of the Psychonaut (sounds epic, right?). XP

Indeed! Being a fairly observant weirdo my whole life, I noticed that I see things differently than most and that there is still a lot of division between the majority as well. Later on in life, I stumbled across psychedelics and quantum physics and read about the Copenhagen Interpretation and observer-created realities and parallel universes and fell down that wormhole for a bit.

I see chaos magick as an understanding that reality is largely subjective. Knowing this, one manipulates reality to a degree by altering our minds - the thing that creates our experienced subjective realty. As above, so below. The micro be the macro.

If you've been surfing on the chaotic outerzones of the shores of belief your entire magickal career, might I kindly suggest picking a firmly established paradigm and really immersing yourself in it (assuming you haven't done this already)? You may be shocked to find that you believe in things that you never thought possible before. That's a major mind f@ck! Which I love. But then, my mind is a dirty, dirty whore. [grin]

The Order of the Dawning Sun did an awesome paper on this, calling the connection psychology rather than physics. Better sources too (no offense).

https://theorderofthedawningsun.wordpre ... version-2/

Excellent post.

Well, if one is truly curious on this topic:

The Observer Effect, The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, and The Global Consciousness Project, have already reconciled science and the occult at the level of "mind" being able to directly influence "matter."

A quick cursory overlook of the interaction between the Observer Effect and the Global Consciousness Project may be that all one truly need endeavor. From there one can connect the dots for themselves. An in-depth exploration of Quantum Physics is unnecessary.

777Sloan wrote:Excellent post.

Well, if one is truly curious on this topic:

The Observer Effect, The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, and The Global Consciousness Project, have already reconciled science and the occult at the level of "mind" being able to directly influence "matter."

A quick cursory overlook of the interaction between the Observer Effect and the Global Consciousness Project may be that all one truly need endeavor. From there one can connect the dots for themselves. An in-depth exploration of Quantum Physics is unnecessary.

These two are what have stood out to me the most as well - ie. double-slit/quantum eraser and Global Consciousness Project, also PEAR to some extent for the later albeit the data isn't as difficult to push under the rug.

Probably the best book I've read that bridges science and the occult (magick) is The Apophenion by Peter J. Carroll. Some of it is heavy going and a basic understanding of Quantum Physics is helpful, but it's still a great paradigm shifting book.